[aDwD spoilers] Revisiting Rhaegar

[Cricket]

Also, I do think we need clarification on the Harrenhal timeline. I had thought Robert's Rebellion occured two years later but others are claiming it started right after. Which is good for a Rhaegar/Lyanna abduction scenario and Ned/Brandon fathering Ashara Dayne's daughter, but doesn't jive with Jaime's progression as a knight or Aegon VI's birth; he'd be a toddler by the time of the Rebellion then, not a babe in arms.

Robert's Rebellion takes place 1 year after Harrenhal, but the end of it comes 2 years after.

Wasn't part of Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna because he wanted to have a baby with her, in fulfillment of a prophesy? It seems like he intended to have a relationship with her and bear a child, the third head of the dragon.

This begs the question: what would have happened if the Targs put down Robert's Rebellion? Would he have put aside Elia or tried for polygamy? That would have alienated the hell out of Dorne and possibly started the whole thing over again. Would he have just claimed Lyanna's child as his, legitimizing him? Then what would have happened to Lyanna? She wouldn't have had a father or brothers... maybe she would have claimed Winterfell, though I can't imagine she would have been anything but devastated by the loss of her family.

I think the cries of "Whore!" would have rung out soon enough from many quarters had the Targaryens stayed in power and Rhaegar survived the war. It would have been a sticket wicket and I have no idea how it could have been resolved peacefully.

I think you're right, any path seems to lead severe consequences regardless of had the rebellion been put down or not. But if Rhaegar really was as intent on fulfilling prophecy as indicated, merely becoming the great warrior he did because he "had" to and kidnapping Lyanna for similar reasons, then maybe he didn't really even put much thought beyond simply fathering the third head of the dragon. Perhaps he even thought that his death was inevitable in fulfilling the prophecy.

[tipopellet]

Wasn't part of Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna because he wanted to have a baby with her, in fulfillment of a prophesy? It seems like he intended to have a relationship with her and bear a child, the third head of the dragon.

I believe we have no idea. It isn't stated anywhere directly what exactly the prophecy says and how determined he was to fulfill it at all or specifically through Lyanna.

Even if he thought it meant he had to have another baby he could have hoped his wife will give him another one. Otherwise I think he wouldn't have informed her about it in Dany's vision. She managed to have two healthy babies despite being sickly after all and they were both young.

[Dragonfish]

Even if he thought it meant he had to have another baby he could have hoped his wife will give him another one. Otherwise I think he wouldn't have informed her about it in Dany's vision. She managed to have two healthy babies despite being sickly after all and they were both young.

The maesters told them she could never have another child. I'm not sure if that meant she was barren, or that she would die if she gave birth again, but the point is that Rhaegar most definitely could not have a third child with Elia, unless he wanted to kill her. I think it's very likely that Rhaegar thought Lyanna could help him make that third head of the dragon.

[Dragonfish]

Not only Robert though. Ned as well. Robert asks Ned about "how many times" he thinks Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Ned tries to divert the conversation away from what is obviously a painful topic.

Or he doesn't want Robert to think too long and hard about Rhaegar and Lyanna sleeping together because he doesn't want it to occur to him that she may have had a child.

We know nothing about what Ned thinks about Rhaegar and Lyanna...except his rather telling thought about how Rhaegar probably did not visit brothels.

Dany speaks of Rhaegar taking Lyanna at "sword point",

I have addressed this already. Arguably she is talking about a rescue.

the Reed children (after they tell the story of the KotLT) do not continue with the story saying that what happens after is a "sad story",

Well, Lyanna and Rhaegar die. So do many thousands of others. Is that not a sad story?

Bran speaks about the kidnapping of his aunt (where I drew the conclusion that Lyanna's abduction must be taught as part of Stark history).

I doubt Ned instructs people to tell Bran about his sister's "rape." That's a pretty morbid topic to teach your child, especially when he probably isn't that clear on what sex is. Most likely Bran heard the story through other means.

Anyway, no one really disputes that Lyanna's "kidnapping" is the "official" story of the new regime. We're questioning the facts behind the "official" story. Bran was not even born when all of this happened, so his opinions are essentially useless.

Selmy is not unbiased. He was a KG and a Targ supporter. He has, however, shown more honesty in terms of the Targ "madness", but Dany refuses (as other posts have noted) to allow Selmy to give his full explanation and account of what happened.

By your own admission Selmy is honest about Targ madness. Yet he tells Dany that Rhaegar was the best Targ of all. Sounds like a ringing endorsement from someone who isn't afraid to be honest with Dany.

[tipopellet]

There seem to be a conflicting evidence on how much Rhaegar needed another baby.

See this quote from maester Aemon

“No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his

birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

He doesn't seem to be worried about there being ONLY Dany. He doesn't mention any other heads dragon must have for the prophecy to be complete.

I think it's possible that "the dragon has 3 heads" is unrelated notion of Rhaegar, something he would like to have because of his house sigil and all, not something he MUST have to fulfil the prophecy that's driving him.

[tipopellet]

The maesters told them she could never have another child.

Maesters are humans and servants, theirs are advices not orders or prophecies. He could have heeded that advice or he could have kept trying. He didn't seem to be above making sacrifices, so were she to die from childbirth he would play his harp and sing some sad song while being satisfied he got his third head of the dragon (or freedom to choose a new wife).

[Dragonfish]

Are you going to dispute that Brandon was told she was abducted at sword point?

We don't know what Brandon was told, we don't know the content of the message he received.

Where did that story come from?

There were probably arms involved. I have said as much.

There is zero evidence that Rickard knew anything about Lyanna going willingly.

I never said that there was evidence. I am not trying to prove anything regarding Rickard, as I have said several times. I am merely trying to disprove your assertion that it is "obvious" that Rickard thought she was kidnapped. The standard of proof is lower for me than it is for you, because you are the one making an assertion about what happened, and I am the one who is showing how it didn't necessarily happen that way.

Whether or not a teenaged girl wants to run off with her totally inappropriate lover has no bearing on her father's stance that she is his property and has no right to do so, nor evidently did she run off under her own power.

I think if Rickard knew Lyanna went willingly, it would have significantly affected his response had he lived. That is all I'm saying.

Brandon's reaction and the fact that Rhaegar seemed to get away clean would indicate that Lyanna was taken somewhere closer to the south, and that Rickard, Brandon, and Ned were not in on it.

No, it does not.

Brandon rode to King's Landing because he expected Rhaegar to go there. There is a time gap between events and the messages about those events, and doubtless Brandon knew this. Most likely he immediately thought that riding back North would have been a futile gesture, since by the time he got back Rhaegar would most likely be gone already. So he rode to where he thought Rhaegar would end up.

Or Lyanna was kidnapped somewhere in the South, as you say. It is indeed possible. But it is by no means the only possibility.

And once again you're making a claim about what Rickard knew or did not know, despite admitting that we can't know what Rickard knew or did not know.

We don't know what Rickard thought or knew. But it seems clear that he disapproved of a Lyanna/Rhaegar union, evidenced by the fact that they had to run away at sword point.

Undoubtedly he did disapprove. If he didn't disapprove, then there's no reason to run off. But that doesn't mean he would have gone to war just to chastise an unruly daughter. Sadly, we cannot know what he would have done, because he was killed first.

Brandon would have had the news from Rickard if it happened there, and if he knew it was consensual, likely he would have depicted it to Brandon in such a way that Brandon would have reacted with less fury.

We don't know who sent Brandon the message he received. Rickard could not have sent him a raven directly, as Brandon was in transit. So he'd have to send a raven to a nearby castle, with instructions to deliver the message by rider. Along the way, the message may have gotten altered. And who knows, perhaps it was Rickard's maester who sent the message, with his own agenda in mind?

No? I mean, this seems like logic to me.

No, I'm sorry, your logic relies on too many assumptions.

This would change the story considerably, don't you think?

Uhh...no. How would it change the story considerably? It would only change your understanding of it, which is based on wild leaps of logic to begin with.

Everyone knew they were in love, they asked and were refused by their parents, so they ran away together...

Where did I say that "everyone" knew these things? If you're going to argue against someone, please argue against their actual arguments.

Most likely people who fought for the rebels believed he was kidnapped, and people who fought for the loyalists believe she went willingly. But their thoughts are not evidence of what actually happened.

Why would Martin decide to change the whole story now? What would it serve? It went down how it did, and that's the tragedy of it.

Yes, and wouldn't it be more tragic if Rickard knew the truth, but died before he could peacefully settle things?

A teenaged girl cries at a beautiful song does not prove she wanted to run off and have babies with its singer (though she may well have).

In isolation, this detail could mean nothing. But taken with the other evidence, it is rather telling.

Refresh my memory where it says she was unhappy with her betrothal to Robert.

She tells Ned how he will never keep to one bed. Ned tries to assure her that he loves her and will stay faithful to her, then she responds, "Love is sweet, Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

You cant disprove me, because the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You're right, our two scenarios are comparable. Why, mine only requires Lyanna to have lips and vocal chords and a brain to be able to speak to her father. Yours requires Rhaegar to travel to Lannisport and buy a love potion, for some reason. Exactly the same!

[Salander]

Or he doesn't want Robert to think too long and hard about Rhaegar and Lyanna sleeping together because he doesn't want it to occur to him that she may have had a child.

We know nothing about what Ned thinks about Rhaegar and Lyanna...except his rather telling thought about how Rhaegar probably did not visit brothels.

Or because Ned was grief stricken over the abduction, kidnapping, repeated rape and death of his sister? Or because Ned agrees with Robert's description.

As said to you on another thread, I think you put too much stock in that phrase. Ned doesn't think Rhaegar would visit brothels. So what? It didn't stop Ned from lining up on the other side of the war with Robert and wanting to kill Rhaegar did it?

I have addressed this already. Arguably she is talking about a rescue.

It didn't sound like it in the context of what Dany was talking about. She's talking about taking a servant/subject to her own "bed" and implies that Rhaegar taking Lyanna was a "damn the consequences" scenario.

Well, Lyanna and Rhaegar die. So do many thousands of others. Is that not a sad story?

Yeah. It is a sad story and made possible by an entitled and irresponsible Crown Prince.

I doubt Ned instructs people to tell Bran about his sister's "rape." That's a pretty morbid topic to teach your child, especially when he probably isn't that clear on what sex is. Most likely Bran heard the story through other means.

So where did Bran learn it from? Do you think Nan told it to him? If so, where did she get it from? It sounds like Bran is repeating what he has been taught or told. It is part of Stark family history and also the history of the realm.

Anyway, no one really disputes that Lyanna's "kidnapping" is the "official" story of the new regime. We're questioning the facts behind the "official" story. Bran was not even born when all of this happened, so his opinions are essentially useless.

It also may well be the true story.

By your own admission Selmy is honest about Targ madness. Yet he tells Dany that Rhaegar was the best Targ of all. Sounds like a ringing endorsement from someone who isn't afraid to be honest with Dany.

Yes, but was Rhaegar the "best" Targ because the others were appalling? Or was Rhaegar a really good guy? I think that point is incredibly debatable. Given he has core responsibility (through folly or design) in the creation of the civil war, the deaths of thousands (including Lyanna Stark) and the overturning of his house, I know what position I agree with.

[tipopellet]

As said to you on another thread, I think you put too much stock in that phrase. Ned doesn't think Rhaegar would visit brothels. So what? It didn't stop Ned from lining up on the other side of the war with Robert and wanting to kill Rhaegar did it?

To be fair, he wasn't in it just because of Lyanna or Rhaegar's amoral behavior, it was fight or die for him as well as for Robert.

[Maia]

See this quote from maester Aemon

He doesn't seem to be worried about there being ONLY Dany. He doesn't mention any other heads dragon must have for the prophecy to be complete.

OTOH, he was probably only half-right. Since Jon dreamed of himself in a black armor fighting wights with a burning sword, and had his own version of smoke and salt under bleeding reddish (purple) stars I am fairly sure that he will fulfill the "sword" prophecies of Azor Ahai, while Dany will fulfill the "dragon" ones. She also had a dream of fighting enemies made of ice while wearing a black armor and riding a black dragon, IIRC - back in AGOT or maybe ACoK.

There are even 2 slightly different prophecies, really, one mentioning multiple stars and a flaming sword, the other mentioning the red star (singular) and waking dragons out of stone.

And of course, dragon is neither male nor female, but can be either...

[tipopellet]

OTOH, he was probably only half-right.

There are even 2 slightly different prophecies, really, one mentioning multiple stars and a flaming sword, the other mentioning the red star (singular) and waking dragons out of stone.

That's another issue though. Rhaegar and maester Aemon don't seem to know about AA. The prophecy Rhaegar is obsessed with is about tPtwP. And maester Aemon take on it doesn't seem to require there being 3 of them ar once. He seems happy with only Dany.

We only think Rhaegar was determined to have another child to fulfill the prophecy because of Dany's dream. But I don't think we can take it as an established fact when there is a contradicting evidence re what the prophecy required. That 3 headed dragon comment could have mean something else entirely. Dany wasn't even sure he was talking to Elia or to herself. Mayhaps it was a message to her and not an evidence of his burning desire to have another baby because of prophecy.

[Ygritte]

That's another issue though. Rhaegar and maester Aemon don't seem to know about AA. The prophecy Rhaegar is obsessed with is about tPtwP. And maester Aemon take on it doesn't seem to require there being 3 of them ar once. He seems happy with only Dany.

We only think Rhaegar was determined to have another child to fulfill the prophecy because of Dany's dream. But I don't think we can take it as an established fact when there is a contradicting evidence re what the prophecy required. That 3 headed dragon comment could have mean something else entirely. Dany wasn't even sure he was talking to Elia or to herself. Mayhaps it was a message to her and not an evidence of his burning desire to have another baby because of prophecy.

I think it was more of a soliloquy--I don't think he said those exact words to Elia right then, but that he's thinking it and saying it maybe to Dany and maybe to the gods or just to himself, and the reason it's out loud is because it's a vision. I think he really did think that but didn't necessarily say it aloud in the "real life" version of that moment.

[Salander]

To be fair, he wasn't in it just because of Lyanna or Rhaegar's amoral behavior, it was fight or die for him as well as for Robert.

I agree, but I still maintain that Dragonfish is making too much out of that one passing thought from Ned about Rhaegar which wasn't negative. When all is said and done, who did Ned stand with and who was his best friend (with all his faults): it was Robert. Ned admired Arthur Dayne and possibly loved his sister. It didn't stop him from having a fight to the death with Dayne over Lyanna did it?

[tipopellet]

Even if he did wanted another baby, he only found out that Elia would not be able to birth another one (not without risking her life at least) after Aegon was born and that must have been right before Rebellion. Or actually rather right after. Because by the Sack of KL Aegon is still a baby in arms which means hardly an year old. So it looks like he kidnapped Lyanna even before he found out Elia couldn't have more kids. Which makes this "need more babies, but my wife failed me" motivation less likely to play any part in Lyanna's kidnapping or whatever it was.

[kg1982]

Selmy is not unbiased. He was a KG and a Targ supporter. He has, however, shown more honesty in terms of the Targ "madness", but Dany refuses (as other posts have noted) to allow Selmy to give his full explanation and account of what happened. She always stops him. Also, Selmy doesn't put it down to "youthful folly". He gives his account of Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna. We have no account of how Lyanna felt about Rhaegar - anywhere in the texts.

Selmy is not a Targ supporter; he's a KG... With the King's Guard, it is more ours is not to reason why, ours is just to do or die rather than full-fledged support for the current regime and ideology. What is interesting about Selmy is that he is clearly as doubtful about his actions and his service in the King's Guard as we learned that Jaime is. He even pointed out that he might have killed Robert if he had been there when Tywin presented Robert with the bodies of Elia and Rhaegar's children. For all the King's Guard, it seems that there is a dilemma between honoring their vows and living by their personal moral codes... It's the ultimate Nuremberg question. Is there such a defense as I was only following orders?

Also, while it isn't stated outright, it is clear that Selmy thinks that Rhaegar and Lyanna was a folly of lust associated with youth. His musings about Rhaegar and Lyanna come up with conjunction to his musing about Dany and her mistakes. Rhaegar might have been in his mid twenties, but Barristan was in his mid forties at the time, a contemporary of Aerys and old enough to be Rhaegar's father.

Of course, just because Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been a love match, doesn't mean that there wasn't enough stupid to go around. Barristan clearly doesn't approve of Dany's decisions.. you know the ones that have led to quite a bit of suffering in Slaver's Bay. And he clearly didn't approve of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Rhaegar might have been a better person than Aerys, but that doesn't mean he would have made a good king.. Running off with a 15-year-old high noble lady and spending one's time in la-la land concerned with a prophecy does not a great king make.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

We don't know what Brandon was told, we don't know the content of the message he received.

I feel like you're being obtuse here: whatever he was told inflamed him so much that he suicidally called out the crown prince. Is it impossible to draw some conclusion about the content of the message?

There were probably arms involved. I have said as much.

Yet it couldn't have been an abduction. What you're failing to acknowledge here is that it WAS an abduction whether Lyanna wanted to go or not, as she could not have given consent in this context and society, and Rhaegar did not have permission.

I am merely trying to disprove your assertion that it is "obvious" that Rickard thought she was kidnapped. The standard of proof is lower for me than it is for you, because you are the one making an assertion about what happened, and I am the one who is showing how it didn't necessarily happen that way.

My assertion about "what happened" is based on the text. The Starks and Baratheons were concerned about Rhaegar's intentions toward Lyanna. Lyanna was taken by arms. Lyanna had no right to make the choice she allegedly did, nor did Rhaegar have the right to take her. Is it a wild leap to say that Rickard was not happy about it and felt Lyanna was wrongfully taken, regardless of her feelings on the matter? I don't think so. If you don't agree, fine. I'm OK with that.

I think if Rickard knew Lyanna went willingly, it would have significantly affected his response had he lived. That is all I'm saying.

Why? It would have ruined his alliance with Baratheon. It would also probably have soured any relationship with Dorne. His daughter would have dishonored herself and several other noble houses and made quite a spectacular scandal, not to mention the eventual conception of a bastard. I'm sure he felt she was abducted whether she wanted to go or not. He still would have had a major problem on his hands. The response may have been very similar.

Brandon rode to King's Landing because he expected Rhaegar to go there. There is a time gap between events and the messages about those events, and doubtless Brandon knew this. Most likely he immediately thought that riding back North would have been a futile gesture, since by the time he got back Rhaegar would most likely be gone already. So he rode to where he thought Rhaegar would end up.

Seriously, now: Rhaegar Targaryen goes into WINTERFELL and takes Rickard's daughter from him without his consent by force of arms. None of the tales tell of this incredibly incendiary action. The North has no reaction until Brandon finds out. Does that seem likely to you?

And once again you're making a claim about what Rickard knew or did not know, despite admitting that we can't know what Rickard knew or did not know.

I am drawing inferences based on probability and what we know. We know he was a stern man and a bit scary. We know he had southron ambitions and his daughter's marriage was an important part of that. We know the Starks did not like Rhaegar's attentions to Lyanna and know his son freaked out at the news of him taking her. I don't feel that I'm going out on a limb to say that regardless of what he knew, he'd have had a problem with it when he did find out.

Undoubtedly he did disapprove. If he didn't disapprove, then there's no reason to run off. But that doesn't mean he would have gone to war just to chastise an unruly daughter. Sadly, we cannot know what he would have done, because he was killed first.

It's not just to chastise an unruly daughter. Please. It's to maintain the honor of his house in making a compact with Baratheon, in not offending Dorne, in not antagonizing Aerys. It's far more complex than "my daughter was a bad girl." He may not have had a choice.

We don't know who sent Brandon the message he received. Rickard could not have sent him a raven directly, as Brandon was in transit. So he'd have to send a raven to a nearby castle, with instructions to deliver the message by rider. Along the way, the message may have gotten altered. And who knows, perhaps it was Rickard's maester who sent the message, with his own agenda in mind?

Occam's Razor would indicate that, if Lyanna was abducted from Winterfell, the message was from Rickard, and those messages, are you know, are sealed, so tampering is unlikely. It is possible that someone else at Winterfell inflamed Brandon's rage and sent him after Rhaegar to start just the shitstorm that ensued, I suppose, though I doubt much embroidering would have to go on: Rhaegar took Lyanna at swordpoint. That was true. That's all Brandon needed to know. If Rickard knew she wanted to go, I think he would have mentioned it. Making up additional conspirators like Rickard's maester to make it more complicated seems... quixotic to me.

If the message did not come from Winterfell, then all manner of tampering and spin doctoring could have occurred, though like I said, not much would have been necessary IMO to get Brandon going.

No, I'm sorry, your logic relies on too many assumptions.

And your alternative scenarios are way more farfetched than my assumptions.

Uhh...no. How would it change the story considerably? It would only change your understanding of it, which is based on wild leaps of logic to begin with.

Really? Wild leaps? No, I'm sorry, I don't think so. If Aerys, Rickard, and by extension the Targaryens and Starks, knew this was a consensual and ongoing affair, it is a different story. It's not shrouded in mystery and mythology. More people would have known, and the narrative would be different.

Where did I say that "everyone" knew these things? If you're going to argue against someone, please argue against their actual arguments.

Everyone who mattered: the families of the two involved. But they seem to be as in the dark as anyone. If both of them were petitioning their parents to marry, their friends and confidants would have known, and more of the story would have gotten out.

Yes, and wouldn't it be more tragic if Rickard knew the truth, but died before he could peacefully settle things?

Perhaps. From his description as a rather stern and tough man, I doubt he would have been very sympathetic to her choice, do you? I just can't see him being taken by the romance of it, nor the prophesy. I imagine the average Westerosi nobleman would be quite put out by the whole thing. I freely admit that's my inference based on the limited descriptions we have, but this is why I say it doesn't matter if Lyanna went of her own free will, Rickard would have been pissed.

She tells Ned how he will never keep to one bed. Ned tries to assure her that he loves her and will stay faithful to her, then she responds, "Love is sweet, Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

And she was right, though I think had this Rhaegar thing not happened, she still would have married him and possibly even been happy enough.

You're right, our two scenarios are comparable. Why, mine only requires Lyanna to have lips and vocal chords and a brain to be able to speak to her father. Yours requires Rhaegar to travel to Lannisport and buy a love potion, for some reason. Exactly the same!

She also would have to be in the same place as her father, which is not a given, and not feared his reaction, which is also not a given. How many 15 year old daughters would tell their father they wanted to run off with a married man, throw off their agreed up marriage to a close friend, etc?

Though the love potion theory is pure crack, I agree.

[Salander]

Selmy is not a Targ supporter; he's a KG... With the King's Guard, it is more ours is not to reason why, ours is just to do or die rather than full-fledged support for the current regime and ideology. What is interesting about Selmy is that he is clearly as doubtful about his actions and his service in the King's Guard as we learned that Jaime is. He even pointed out that he might have killed Robert if he had been there when Tywin presented Robert with the bodies of Elia and Rhaegar's children. For all the King's Guard, it seems that there is a dilemma between honoring their vows and living by their personal moral codes... It's the ultimate Nuremberg question. Is there such a defense as I was only following orders?

Also, while it isn't stated outright, it is clear that Selmy thinks that Rhaegar and Lyanna was a folly of lust associated with youth. His musings about Rhaegar and Lyanna come up with conjunction to his musing about Dany and her mistakes. Rhaegar might have been in his mid twenties, but Barristan was in his mid forties at the time, a contemporary of Aerys and old enough to be Rhaegar's father.

Of course, just because Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been a love match, doesn't mean that there wasn't enough stupid to go around. Barristan clearly doesn't approve of Dany's decisions.. you know the ones that have led to quite a bit of suffering in Slaver's Bay. And he clearly didn't approve of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Rhaegar might have been a better person than Aerys, but that doesn't mean he would have made a good king.. Running off with a 15-year-old high noble lady and spending one's time in la-la land concerned with a prophecy does not a great king make.

Actually, Selmy himself states one of his big mistakes is remaining in the KG when the Targs fell.

[The King of Worms]

Of course all the recollections of Rhaegar that we read are told from the viewpoints of various characters who all have biased opinions of him. Nevertheless we know certain things. He was a great warrior beloved by the common folk. He was very intelligent and a creative talent... an intellect. He was also considered very handsome. Basically the kind of guy most girls go for.

Logically it makes sense that Lyanna would fall in love with such a prince, rather than the uncouth brutish Robert. Throw in the fact that her dad did not approve of the guy and wanted to marry someone else... I think its pretty obvious the girl was a willing lover rather than a raped kidnap victim.

Whether Rhaegar was "honorable" is impossible to say. We know that he must have been hugely charismatic to cast such a long shadow in death. It's interesting how controversial he is on the forum even though he is not even a living character in the books. I would think honor would be a very tricky thing for a prince forced to serve his psychopath father who forced him into a marriage he didn't want. We see that GRRM's world is full of impossible moral conundrums, and the only character who seems to outright despise Rhaegar as a villain is Robert. So I think that Rhaegar wasn't a villain, but maybe honorable in his own way, who made some mistakes, played the game of thrones, and lost.

[kg1982]

Actually, Selmy himself states one of his big mistakes is remaining in the KG when the Targs fell.

Because of what happened to Rhaegar's children.. not because he had any more love for the Targaryens instead of other families. He pointed out that he wished Aerys would have died in Duskendale. He knew that Aerys was crazy and wasn't fond of him. Barristan was going to resign because of the moral conflict.. he didn't like the killing of babies not because he was a big Aerys fan.

[kg1982]

Actually, Selmy himself states one of his big mistakes is remaining in the KG when the Targs fell.

Because of what happened to Rhaegar's children.. not because he had any more love for the Targaryens instead of other families. He pointed out that he wished Aerys would have died in Duskendale. He knew that Aerys was crazy and wasn't fond of him. Barristan was going to resign because of the moral conflict.. he didn't like the killing of babies not because he was a big Aerys fan.