[aDwD spoilers] Revisiting Rhaegar

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Can I ask a simple question here? If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and really wanted to marry, why didn't Rhaegar just ASK Rickard Stark if he could marry her? Lyanna certainly could have advocated for herself in this, and while Robert would have been pissed, he would have gotten over it, esp. if Aerys backed it and maybe paid off House Baratheon. For those who are arguing that a polygamous marriage would have been no big deal, nor the offense to House Baratheon, then there is no reason why Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't have pressed for their union in a legitimate fashion. Their secrecy seems to indicate that they knew trouble would ensue, so one wonders why they had to go about it the way they did. The real problem with R+L is that they ran off and hid, which allowed all the stories about abduction and rape to propagate. Maybe they thought it would be easier to ask forgiveness than permission (though the apologist would say Rhaegar need ask for neither), but that sure didn't work out that way.

I also wonder if it's possible that Rhaegar had a touch of the Targaryen madness. He seems depressed; Barristan Selmy says he couldn't ever be happy, struggled with a sense of doom, was preoccupied with prophesy. I think it's possible that Lyanna had a crush on him and that he took it to the next level not only due to an intense attraction but also because it fit his interpretation of the prophesy. He may even have taken her at sword point, which does not mean that she did not reciprocate his feelings. A fifteen year old girl smitten with a handsome and seemingly unattainable prince probably does not expect to ever be with him. She may have been surprised and even scared to go with him, which doesn't make it rape, but does make it abduction.

I'm pretty sure Rhaegar really thought he was doing what he had to do, due to love and fulfillment of the prophesy. I think he really didn't care about the consequences, though he had no idea how truly horrific they would be. He's a complicated character whose true motivations may never be know, b/c who could possibly know them? All his confidants are dead. Howland Reed may be able to shed some light on things, but it may remain largely a mystery, unless Martin writes a prequel.

[The Faceless Bard]

In howland reed we trust!

[Wolf Maid]

We don't have any evidence that he was called the "Mad King" until the war.

We do know that he was considered mad by the people in the realm. When Jaime was telling Catelyn about how Brandon and Rickard died, she said that Aerys was mad and everyone in the realm knew about it. So, I think that it is pretty safe to say that the title "Mad King" came before the burning of the Lords.

Yes, he admits that in hindsight he ought to have done something a long time ago. If anything this scene only supports my proposition that Rhaegar didn't really think that his father was that far gone before the war. It was only until Aerys started executing lords who had committed no crime that it became clear to him that his father needed to be stopped. This ought to be a point in Rhaegar's favor, yet so often it is brought up as a point against him.

I see this as another example of him neglecting his responsibilities to the realm because he was too caught up in trying to fulfill some prophecy. As I mentioned above, it was clear to the rest of the realm that he was mad, so I don't see why it wouldn't be clear to him. When he said, "I should have done something about it a long time ago", that suggests that he knew a long time ago and didn't do anything about it.

It's easy for someone who has the benefit of hindsight to say that someone else was "stupid" for something they did. You're committing the historian's fallacy here.

Again, Rhaegar and Lyanna probably ran off together. There was likely no abduction. I imagine they expected there to be a big scandal involved, but nothing like a war.

I have already mentioned time and time again why I don't buy the argument of him not knowing. After Tyrion was taken, the expected result was the Lions and Wolves would be at war over it. That was said before word even got to Ned about what happened. Yoren rode out so quickly because he knew the consequences of abducting a person from a noble house. Brandon followed this reaction pattern when he rode out to King's Landing after hearing about his sister. So, I have a hard time believing that Rhaegar wouldn't have some idea of the consequences of his actions. Everyone seemed to know in the case of Tyrion. Everyone also seemed to know in the case of Ned being imprisoned that there would be an uprising in the North. So, that argument holds no water with me.

The war lasted a year, but Rhaegar came back right after the Battle of the Bells, which was a few months into the war. See here for more details.

I don't see how it makes much difference. Whether it was a year or close to a year. He still let the war rage on while he stayed in hiding and only came back for the last battle. That doesn't show that he was waiting for things to calm down. The war was near its end when he came out. He should have been out trying to fix things when he heard there was a war going on.

Have I not admitted that part of him was naive and selfish? I don't recall you ever admitting that he had any good qualities. All I'm saying is that he's a complicated figure with mostly great qualities, but with some negative qualities that ended up being his downfall. I would use that description to describe many other characters, such as Robb or Ned.

Yeah, you admit it and then try to justify it. I've said from the beginning that I didn't think he was either all bad or all good, but there are actions that he did that made me not like his character. I have not heard about any of his good actions, so I would not know about it.

Well, many people in the story who know the full context disagree with you. That's what leads me to believe there's more to this than we've been told explicitly.

Many of those same people hold him responsible for the start of the war. For example, Barristan Selmy said that his actions cost thousands of lives.

Yes, we the reader know that's how prophecies work, because we have the benefit of reading many people's stories and seeing how their attempts to fulfill prophecies turn out for them. Rhaegar does not have that advantage. So you seem to be criticizing him for not knowing what the reader knows, which seems a bit unfair.

It isn't about what the reader knows, it is about the definition of a prophecy. A prophecy is something of divine will. If it is suppose to happen it will happen. Are you trying to argue that he wouldn't know the definition of a prophecy?

Ok, but plenty of other people who knew Joffrey thought he was a shit-poor king, and would remain a shit-poor king even when he got older. I don't see why you're using this as an example.

The point was his age. He was not held responsible. The people over him were held responsible for not keeping him in line. He was expected to make bad decisions.

Sure, their situations are not perfectly comparable, and I've probably focused too much on this particular example. The point is that we have many examples in the story of people doing irresponsible things for love, but no one calls those people "arrogant" or "assholes." Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions ultimately led to the deaths of many, but then again so did Catelyn's, and so did Robb's. That doesn't make them all terrible people.

If he just made some stupid mistakes, I wouldn't have much problem with him. However, that isn't all he did. Humiliating his wife in front of most of the houses in the realm is not just a stupid mistake. Neither is running off with your cousin's fiance or leaving your wife and kids behind with your crazy father while you're off having an affair. He left others to clean up the mess he made with no attempt to try and fix it. Yes, Robb made a stupid mistake. But he never ran from it and he did not abandon his family. He also attempted to try to fix it. That and the fact that Robb is about 10 years younger than Rhaegar was leads me not to put him in the same league as Rhaegar.

[Dragonfish]

Can I ask a simple question here? If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and really wanted to marry, why didn't Rhaegar just ASK Rickard Stark if he could marry her?

Because Aerys himself may not have approved.

For those who are arguing that a polygamous marriage would have been no big deal, nor the offense to House Baratheon, then there is no reason why Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't have pressed for their union in a legitimate fashion.

I don't think anyone argues that a polygamous marriage would have been easy for the other houses to accept, just that there is precedent for polygamous marriage that would have made it technically legal, and which Rhaegar and Lyanna may have tried to use as a justification. The pragmatic difficulty of getting this done, however, may very well have been what caused Rhaegar and Lyanna to elope rather than go through the "official" channels.

[Lost Time]

Can I ask a simple question here? If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and really wanted to marry, why didn't Rhaegar just ASK Rickard Stark if he could marry her? Lyanna certainly could have advocated for herself in this, and while Robert would have been pissed, he would have gotten over it, esp. if Aerys backed it and maybe paid off House Baratheon. For those who are arguing that a polygamous marriage would have been no big deal, nor the offense to House Baratheon, then there is no reason why Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't have pressed for their union in a legitimate fashion. Their secrecy seems to indicate that they knew trouble would ensue, so one wonders why they had to go about it the way they did. The real problem with R+L is that they ran off and hid, which allowed all the stories about abduction and rape to propagate. Maybe they thought it would be easier to ask forgiveness than permission (though the apologist would say Rhaegar need ask for neither), but that sure didn't work out that way.

Yeah, that's the thing, no way is the Stark family agreeing to it. Sure as hell no way Baratheon is agreeing to it. And no way Dorne is agreeing to it. And Aerys is mad as hell so no way he agrees to it. It was a clusterfuck waiting to happen and Rhaegar/Lyanna went about it entirely wrong.

People are quick to demonize Brandon Stark for his headstrong behavior, Aerys for being insane, and for all I know Robert and Ned for not agreeing to get BBQ'd; but discount Lyanna (girl version of Brandon btw) and Rhaegar's own headstrong behavior in dipping out for so long in such a manner leaving the families to handle it their own way in such a bad but predictable manner (like Lyanna didn't know her brother was wolf-mad).

I'm not making a blanket statement for the entire character of Rhaegar being an asshole. He obviously was a good man. But his actions leading up to the war were foolish, hasty, and a bit selfish even if he did believe that this specific 15 year old girl's vagina was the key to saving the world (would be a good pickup line though I guess).

[Dragonfish]

We do know that he was considered mad by the people in the realm. When Jaime was telling Catelyn about how Brandon and Rickard died, she said that Aerys was mad and everyone in the realm knew about it. So, I think that it is pretty safe to say that the title "Mad King" came before the burning of the Lords.

She did? Do you have a quote and page number? I must have missed that.

I see this as another example of him neglecting his responsibilities to the realm because he was too caught up in trying to fulfill some prophecy. As I mentioned above, it was clear to the rest of the realm that he was mad, so I don't see why it wouldn't be clear to him. When he said, "I should have done something about it a long time ago", that suggests that he knew a long time ago and didn't do anything about it.

I could literally respond to this part of your post with exactly what I said in my previous post: Rhaegar now realizes, in hindsight, that he ought to have deposed his father. He regrets not having done it sooner. Does the fact that he now recognizes his father's craziness, and the need to do something about it, not count as a point in his favor?

I have already mentioned time and time again why I don't buy the argument of him not knowing. After Tyrion was taken, the expected result was the Lions and Wolves would be at war over it. That was said before word even got to Ned about what happened. Yoren rode out so quickly because he knew the consequences of abducting a person from a noble house. Brandon followed this reaction pattern when he rode out to King's Landing after hearing about his sister. So, I have a hard time believing that Rhaegar wouldn't have some idea of the consequences of his actions. Everyone seemed to know in the case of Tyrion. Everyone also seemed to know in the case of Ned being imprisoned that there would be an uprising in the North. So, that argument holds no water with me.

Are you seriously arguing that Rhaegar ought to have known a war would occur because of what happened with Tyrion and Ned? You are aware that Tyrion's kidnapping happened fourteen years after Rhaegar's death, yes?

Regardless, it is not quite the same because Lyanna was in all likelihood not kidnapped, unlike Tyrion. I'm sure they expected a big scandal to erupt, but I don't think they expected a big war like this.

I don't see how it makes much difference. Whether it was a year or close to a year.

It was a few months, not "close to a year." There is a large, unknown period between Rhaegar's return and the Battle of the Trident. He returned much earlier than you thought, around the time that it became clear that the rebels were more dangerous than was believed. But for some reason you're still clinging to the notion that he "didn't care" about the war.

He still let the war rage on while he stayed in hiding and only came back for the last battle. That doesn't show that he was waiting for things to calm down. The war was near its end when he came out. He should have been out trying to fix things when he heard there was a war going on.

When Aerys exiled Lord Merryweather he wanted Rhaegar as his new Hand, yet no one in the Red Keep knew where he was. If no one knew where he was, then how was he supposed to receive reports of what was going on? I think it's entirely possible that Rhaegar didn't even know about the war until after it began, at which point he returned from the south just in time to reconstitute the loyalist forces after the Battle of the Bells.

Many of those same people hold him responsible for the start of the war. For example, Barristan Selmy said that his actions cost thousands of lives.

Barristan also reflects that Aegon V's choice to marry for love and allow his sons to do the same also cost lives. Yet he thinks that Aegon V was a great king, and that Rhaegar was an even better man than Aegon. He does not deplore Rhaegar for his actions, he merely regrets them.

Furthermore, Catelyns actions led to the deaths of thousands. So did Ned's. And Robb's. Do you think any of these people are arrogant assholes? No, because you understand that they meant well. I think everything that we've read of Rhaegar suggests that he meant well, but like many characters in this series, he discovered that actions can have unintended consequences, no matter how well-intended they were.

It isn't about what the reader knows, it is about the definition of a prophecy. A prophecy is something of divine will. If it is suppose to happen it will happen. Are you trying to argue that he wouldn't know the definition of a prophecy?

Just because a prophecy concerns something that will happen doesn't mean that someone doesn't have make it happen. And as I said in my last post, if Jon is as important for the prophecy as he seems to be, then Rhaegar's actions actually did fulfill part of the prophecy.

[Aegar]

In my eyes, It's comparable to Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling instead of a Frey. Sure, it's insulting, but not something to get killed over. Unless you're a Frey.

[Kadence]

Why would he run an hide if he didn't think that there would be consequences? He knew that there would be consequences and he didn't care.

It seems that they hid precisely because of those consequences - they didn't want their families to find them, and it seems Rhaeghar was especially worried about Aerys. Aerys seemed to have ill intentions for the KotL.

You brush off all of his wrong doings:

Except I'm clearly not. Leaving his young children to go sing sad songs to Lyanna in Dorne for six months or whatever isn't respectable at all. For you to try and compare his level of fatherhood to Robert's though is absolutely comical. The scale of sin here is light years apart.

He took a 15 year old without the consent or knowledge of her family.

As stated by others, Lyanna was more or less a woman by Westeros standards.

Yes, they do. Tywin was willing to send Tyrion on a death mission, but he went to war with the Starks when Tyrion was abducted. Ned's imprisonment lead Robb to go to war to get him out. In both cases, war was expected, so it is no where near a stretch to expect war when you abduct the daughter of the Warden of the North.

The only people that had ever challenged the Targs militarily, were Targs and Targ bastards, so rebellion by the great houses over this was probably never even on anyone's radar. And those situations aren't comparable. Tyrion and Ned were prisoners, the Starks likely suspected Lyanna wasn't. Also Ned was a Lord, Warden of the North and Hand of the King, and Tyrion legally the heir to Casterly Rock.

I draw my conclusions based on what I see

Most people seem to see things quite differently, then. You have many assumptions that aren't supported in the text.

Everyone in the realm called him the “Mad King”

Um, yeah...*after* all this went down. Does this really need to be explained?

So, I think that it is pretty safe to say that the title "Mad King" came before the burning of the Lords.

Where in the world are you getting this notion from? Everyone knew he was mad after he started fricasseeing nobles. Prior to this he hadn't done any act we're aware of that would cause people to think he was mad. Eccentric perhaps, but not mad. In hindsight Duskendale is believed to be the start of his madness but that's hindsight.

He had to have heard about what was going on at the palace and the uproar that was caused.

Not necessarily. Him and Lyanna seem to have cut of all communication to the outside world. Which you can blame rightly blame them for as being utterly stupid. But even then, they couldn't have done anything to stop the war after Rickard got roasted - there was no "period of escalation" for them to act within. The war started suddenly with the unforeseen BBQ.

Also, I see no evidence that they got married.

Perhaps you should pay more attention then. It's not clear and nothing is conclusive either way, but it does seem probable they were married.

No, I don’t accept trying to fulfill a prophecy as an excuse because, if something is meant to happen, it will happen without interference. He risked the peace of the entire realm to try to fulfill a prophecy that he was obviously wrong about, given that his other two children died because of it. Also, IMO, It isn’t really fulfilling a prophecy if you have to try to make it happen.

Prophecies in Westeros can fail (Rhaegho) and it seems often do need to be worked towards (Jojen and Melisandre work to make some of their visions happen quite intentinonally, Daemon II makes his vision come true albeit in an unintended way, etc.). Also most prophecies seem based on visions, which are abstract. Your view of prophecy in Westeros is simply wrong and not consistent with what we've already been shown very explicitly.

Though I agree that if Rhaeghar's primary motive was prophecy rather than love, I am less inclined to forgive the act. It's unclear what his motive truly was at this point, we can only guess. Even if prophecy was his primary motive the act isn't nearly as horrible as you try to insinuate.

[Kadence]

I'm not entirely clear on this, but wasn't Robert largely unaware of the children he fathered (Gendry, Mya Stone, the bar girl Arya and Gendry meet at the inn they stay at,etc)?

This is hardly something that would make it more acceptable. There's no difference here. He clearly knew he was fathering bastards all over the place and paid no attention to their mothers or them. Again, Oberyn did the same thing but took financial care of the bastards and in fact tried to raise them himself, even Aegon the Unworthy seems to have looked out somewhat for his bastards' futures. In real life royal bastards in various cultures typically got some level of support. What Robert did was vile and unforgivable on every level.

I also believe it's mentioned he showed some attention to the children that he did acknowledge as his own. I seem to recall some passages about a baby daughter he fathered who he regularly visited until she died. And he actually spent some time with Edric Storm as well, which Edric has fond memories about. Robert isn't winning any Father of The Year award, but I'd say he's more guilty of just shamelessly sleeping around than callously abandoning his children.

This is likely Mya Stone, seemingly his first child. He abandoned even her - "she knew he'd always be there to catch her, until one day he wasn't". He did ask Cersei once to bring a daughter which was probably Mya to court, which Cersei nixed with death threats - but that doesn't mean Robert couldn't have looked out for her in other ways. Mya Stone was the only bastard Robert ever seemed to give a damn about though, and she was his first child - and he ignored even her when she wasn't a cute babe anymore, and made no attempt to look out discreetly for her future and well-being. Edric Storm he seemed to bring gifts to every now and then, not exactly impressive. Mentioning two bastards of sixteen that he spent almost no time with - and only one of which he supported financially - isn't a good way to defend him. Robert's actions as a father were simply inhuman.

Can I ask a simple question here? If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and really wanted to marry, why didn't Rhaegar just ASK Rickard Stark if he could marry her?

It's a good question and we can only speculate. Perhaps he was a moron. Or perhaps he had decent reasons. It's probable it wasn't Rickard he was worried about, but Aerys - maybe he didn't think Aerys would allow his marriage to the KotL. Aerys might not have been a fan of Starks either, especially as Rickard's intentions seem suspicious. Rickard was making some serious game of thrones moves.

Maybe they thought it would be easier to ask forgiveness than permission (though the apologist would say Rhaegar need ask for neither), but that sure didn't work out that way.

Yes this is another reason hypothesized. That it would be easier to come back later, especially with a child in tow, and say "deal with it" to the Martells, Starks, and Aerys. Obviously, not a good idea in hindsight.

I also wonder if it's possible that Rhaegar had a touch of the Targaryen madness. He seems depressed; Barristan Selmy says he couldn't ever be happy, struggled with a sense of doom, was preoccupied with prophesy

I don't get this impression, I think he was the sanest of Targs (and Jon seems quite sane as well...Dany less so). I think he was just a thinker. And depression is not a sign of madness. He didn't make any moves that hint at a lack of sanity to me. He just seems melancholy and possibly a naive romantic.

[Maia]

I have already mentioned time and time again why I don't buy the argument of him not knowing. After Tyrion was taken, the expected result was the Lions and Wolves would be at war over it. <snip> Everyone also seemed to know in the case of Ned being imprisoned that there would be an uprising in the North. So, that argument holds no water with me.

All of which happened in the post-Rebellion world, where precedent of going to war over such things had been set. Also:

Tywin didn't openly go to war until Robert was dead, his own grandchild sat on the throne and he himself had been named Hand. Before that he only engaged in covert ops aimed at making the _Tullys_ break the king's peace.

Both Ned and Cat were flabbergasted by the news of Robb going to war. It was the opposite of "expected".

Now, let's look at what happened prior to the Rebellion:

Lyanna "abducted" - nobody calls their banners.

Heirs to North and Vale and sons of other important noblemen from those regions arrested - nobody calls their banners. Fathers come to court as ordered.

Sons and fathers cruelly executed, demands made on Jon Arryn (whose nephew and heir was one of the killed) for the heads of his beloved foster-sons - war. Even so, half of Stormlands, Vale and later Riverlands initially supported the Crown and had to be beaten down by their lords paramount.

A very different picture from the one you were painting, no?

A prophecy is something of divine will. If it is suppose to happen it will happen. Are you trying to argue that he wouldn't know the definition of a prophecy?

Not how it works in ASOIAF, as far as we have seen. I mean, House Targaryen was the only dragonlord family to escape the Doom of Valyria. And why? Because they have followed a prophecy, left Valyria and settled on Dragonstone. If they didn't sail to Dragonstone? They would have been incinerated with all the rest.

Yes, Robb made a stupid mistake. But he never ran from it and he did not abandon his family. He also attempted to try to fix it. That and the fact that Robb is about 10 years younger than Rhaegar was leads me not to put him in the same league as Rhaegar.

Robb was in the middle of the war and at the moment when his own position had just become much weaker and more precarious. And at that moment he chose to break faith with one of his principal allies, who had contributed to his previous successes in a major way and held the road back north.

IMHO, it was a far more obviously detrimental move than Rhaegar's, made when kingdom was at peace and his own family's rule was uncontested.

[Kadence]

I mean, House Targaryen was the only dragonlord family to escape the Doom of Valyria. And why? Because they have followed a prophecy, left Valyria and settled on Dragonstone. If they didn't sail to Dragonstone? They would have been incinerated with all the rest.

Was this stated somewhere? Though you're right that prophecy is far from inevitable in ASOIAF and often needs to be nurtured.

Robb was in the middle of the war and at the moment when his own position had just become much weaker and more precarious. And at that moment he chose to break faith with one of his principal allies, who had contributed to his previous successes in a major way and held the road back north.

IMHO, it was a far more obviously detrimental move than Rhaegar's, made when kingdom was at peace and his own family's rule was uncontested.

I agree that Robb's move was easier to foresee as politically disastrous than Rhaeghar's, which in terms of foresight hardly seemed like it should be a problem for a house that had ruled for 300 years without any military threats that didn't come from within the house itself. Much easier to foresee that Robb marrying Jeyne was an "uh-oh" decision.

But Robb's move was definitely also more understandable and easier to sympathize with. You can sympathize with both Rhaeghar and Robb, but Robb's decision definitely seems higher up in that scale to me, since Rhaeghar was married and not just betrothed. And Elia seems like quite a decent person.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

This idea that Lyanna was "basically a woman by Westeros standards" is utterly beside the point. Being a 15 year old girl does make her her father's property, and even if that wasn't the case, she was bethrothed to Robert and not free to hare off with a married man. The fact that she did not tell anyone where she was going or even if she wanted to sure makes it look like an abduction, whether it truly was or not. The secrecy is what led to accusations of rape and kidnapping. If they were just going to flout everyone for love, why not say why? Why not let Lyanna call off her father and brother? I mean, Robert would still be infuriated, but it would defang Rickard and Brandon if they knew she wanted to be there, and might turn Baratheon against Stark instead of against Targaryen. That's what I don't get, if it was a consensual relationship.

It strikes me that while Lyanna may have had a crush on Rhaegar, she may never have believe or intended that it would go as far as it did.

[Wolf Maid]

She did? Do you have a quote and page number? I must have missed that.

Here is the quote:

“Aerys...” Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. “Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark...”

It is from ACOK, I have the kindle version, so I don’t have a page number. It was Catelyn’s last chapter.

She didn’t know how Rickard died prior to being told by Jaime, but she expected hideousness from Aerys. Based on the fact that she didn’t know, I don’t think most of the people in the realm knew how he died, but they still called Aerys the Mad King. That tells me that they saw and/or heard of other actions before this that told them he was crazy. If they saw it, why wouldn’t his son?

Are you seriously arguing that Rhaegar ought to have known a war would occur because of what happened with Tyrion and Ned? You are aware that Tyrion's kidnapping happened fourteen years after Rhaegar's death, yes?

Regardless, it is not quite the same because Lyanna was in all likelihood not kidnapped, unlike Tyrion. I'm sure they expected a big scandal to erupt, but I don't think they expected a big war like this.

No, I’m arguing that war is the typical response to a kidnapping in this series. Based on the given examples, it was practically expected afterwards. So, I don’t buy that he didn’t think that there would be at least some deaths after taking the daughter of the Warden of the North.

Even if Lyanna was not kidnapped, I have every reason to believe that her family thought that she was. As I mentioned before, Brandon's response followed those of others that have had their family members taken.

It was a few months, not "close to a year." There is a large, unknown period between Rhaegar's return and the Battle of the Trident. He returned much earlier than you thought, around the time that it became clear that the rebels were more dangerous than was believed. But for some reason you're still clinging to the notion that he "didn't care" about the war.

The point is that he waited a long time before he came back. So, it was, at the very least, 6 months into the war. The fact that he came back when he thought his position was in trouble shows that he didn't care about the people who died for what he did, only that he was about to lose his seat if he didn't get back. I still don't see the difference. It shouldn't have taken him 6 months to get back to the palace after the war had started.

As I mentioned before, for me, it is a strike against him that he left in the first place and left others to deal with the mess that he created. I don’t believe that he didn’t have any idea of the reaction her family would have, for reasons that I have already stated. So, if he wasn’t checking in on things, that is just more neglect to the Kingdom.

Furthermore, Catelyns actions led to the deaths of thousands. So did Ned's. And Robb's. Do you think any of these people are arrogant assholes? No, because you understand that they meant well. I think everything that we've read of Rhaegar suggests that he meant well, but like many characters in this series, he discovered that actions can have unintended consequences, no matter how well-intended they were.

I’ve already told you that if it were just stupid mistakes, I wouldn’t have much of a problem with him. I’ve also already given you a list of the actions where I thought he was an arrogant asshole. Based on those actions, I’m more apt to conclude that some of Rhaegar’s actions regarding the war were more due to selfishness than being ignorant.

I’ve already admitted that Robb’s decision was a stupid one, but I don’t hold him to it as much as Rhaegar, partially because of his age, but mostly because his actions weren’t as bad. I’m not the biggest Catelyn fan, but what she did was in the name of justice for her son, so I don't equate that with what Rhaegar did either. What he did was for selfish reasons. But, yes what she did was stupid as well. I’m not sure what you’re referring to with Ned either.

[Wolf Maid]

It seems that they hid precisely because of those consequences - they didn't want their families to find them, and it seems Rhaeghar was especially worried about Aerys. Aerys seemed to have ill intentions for the KotL.

Yes, he hid and left the rest of the realm in turmoil due to his actions. He also left his children unprotected.

Except I'm clearly not. Leaving his young children to go sing sad songs to Lyanna in Dorne for six months or whatever isn't respectable at all. For you to try and compare his level of fatherhood to Robert's though is absolutely comical. The scale of sin here is light years apart.

I don't think it is comical at all. I guess we just have a different set of moral standards. He left his children with his crazy father after he disrupted the peace in the realm. He also left his crazy father to deal with his actions. That is completely neglectful, not only of his family, but of the realm as well. Those aren’t the only things that are comparable. The publicly humiliating his sickly wife, the running off with his cousin’s fiance (yes, he does acknowledge him as a cousin) and the leaving others to deal with his mess while he is off having an affair. That makes him pretty on par with Robert for me. As I said, I don’t think either of them are all that great. Rhaegar was worse than Robert for the realm. Robert, at least, kept the peace.

The only people that had ever challenged the Targs militarily, were Targs and Targ bastards, so rebellion by the great houses over this was probably never even on anyone's radar. And those situations aren't comparable. Tyrion and Ned were prisoners, the Starks likely suspected Lyanna wasn't. Also Ned was a Lord, Warden of the North and Hand of the King, and Tyrion legally the heir to Casterly Rock.

This still shows disregard for the lives of others. So, he thought that he could just run off with the daughter of the warden of the north and whatever rebellion that was raised would be squashed. People would have died in that rebellion because of his actions and he showed no regard for that. That shows arrogance and selfishness.

I have already mentioned why I believe her family thought she was kidnapped. Everyone in the realm heard it was a kidnapping, so why wouldn’t they suspect that it was. From both Ned and Brandon's actions, it seems to me that they thought that she was kidnapped.

Most people seem to see things quite differently, then. You have many assumptions that aren't supported in the text.

No, I don’t think so. My views come from what I have read. Also, there are plenty of others who have read and come up with the same conclusion that I have.

Um, yeah...*after* all this went down. Does this really need to be explained?

Where in the world are you getting this notion from? Everyone knew he was mad after he started fricasseeing nobles. Prior to this he hadn't done any act we're aware of that would cause people to think he was mad. Eccentric perhaps, but not mad. In hindsight Duskendale is believed to be the start of his madness but that's hindsight.

No, it was before. As I showed in a previous post, most people likely didn’t know about how Rickard died, Catelyn didn’t. However, they still called him the Mad King before the events took place. Catelyn even mentioned that everyone knew of his madness after she heard.

Perhaps you should pay more attention then. It's not clear and nothing is conclusive either way, but it does seem probable they were married.

Pay more attention to what? I see no passage that suggests that they were married.

[Dragonfish]

Here is the quote:

Thanks. That does put some of Rhaegar's actions in a different light. Though I don't think he had any reason to fear for his children (they were Aerys' kin), there's still the question of leaving Elia there.

No, I’m arguing that war is the typical response to a kidnapping in this series.

Based on examples that occurred after the Rebellion. For all you know, war based on kidnapping was not something expected until the Rebellion. As a matter of argument, your examples don't work.

Even if Lyanna was not kidnapped, I have every reason to believe that her family thought that she was. As I mentioned before, Brandon's response followed those of others that have had their family members taken.

Well, I don't think we know anything about what Brandon and Rickard thought. Brandon's response is not that typical of anyone, because no one else has charged into the Red Keep and threatened the Crown Prince before. It's possible that his response was based on the damage to his family honor, and not the idea that his sister was kidnapped. As for Rickard, I think it is most likely that Lyanna broached the idea of marriage with Rhaegar, but was shot down for it. Then once she ran off with Rhaegar, it was apparent to Rickard that it was no abduction. All opinion, of course, but all of it is possible.

The point is that he waited a long time before he came back. So, it was, at the very least, 6 months into the war. The fact that he came back when he thought his position was in trouble shows that he didn't care about the people who died for what he did, only that he was about to lose his seat if he didn't get back. I still don't see the difference. It shouldn't have taken him 6 months to get back to the palace after the war had started.

Again, they were probably waiting until tensions died down. And making a baby, I'd wager.

I’m not the biggest Catelyn fan, but what she did was in the name of justice for her son, so I don't equate that with what Rhaegar did either.

Well, what Rhaegar did may very well have been in the name of the realm, given the prophecy.

As for Catelyn, if anything her action was even stupider than Rhaegar's. She has literally no proof of Tyrion's involvement, she's been instructed by Ned to act secretly, and worse, she decides to kidnap Tyrion while her husband and daughters are still in King's Landing, the proverbial Lion's Den. And while her actions may have been in the name of justice for her son, there was quite clearly a bit of personal satisfaction mixed in with her other motivations, which I think is a bit selfish. But I don't hate Catelyn, and neither do I hate Rhaegar.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to with Ned either.

Trusting Littlefinger, refusing Renly's aid, sending his own men off, etc. He could have easily defeated Cersei in the Game of Thrones, but instead he acted stupidly, leading to his own capture and the War of the Five Kings, and thus the deaths of thousands.

[Dragonfish]

The fact that she did not tell anyone where she was going or even if she wanted to sure makes it look like an abduction,

Not a fact, an assumption. We don't know what she told anyone. For all we know, her infatuation with Rhaegar was quite known among her family, and thus everyone in her family knew it was not a kidnapping to begin with.

It strikes me that while Lyanna may have had a crush on Rhaegar, she may never have believe or intended that it would go as far as it did.

Well, I think it's quite clear that she ran off with Rhaegar, at least initially. And I think she remained attached to him, given that she was clutching the blue roses Rhaegar gave her when Ned found her in the ToJ.

[The Bronze Wyvern]

Cripes, I can only repeat what I said previously, which is the fact that fathering bastards does not make you a bad person. Robert had one "great" bastard, Edric, who he made sure was looked after at Storm's End. This is not the 21st century. Nobody sends you paternity suits in the post. Ned is seen as being different because he looks after his (supposed) bastard. Walder Frey shows contempt for his, even if he does keep them around the Twins. Oberyn looks after his to an extent, but Dorne is a very different culture to the rest of Westeros. Aegon IV was cursed by historians for legitimising Daemon.

Besides which, the point I was trying to make is that neither Robert nor Rhaegar are heroes, and neither are they vilains. Rhaegar makes horrible mistakes prior to the Rebellion that cost him his life. Robert makes horrible mistakes in the years following Pyke, and...they cost him his life.

We'll have to wait to see how the series pans out, but I see Daenerys as having to interpret prophecy a bit more skilfully than Rhaegar did. His interpretation caused war and the near destruction of his family. Robert's inability to form a relationship with Cersei means he left no trueborn heirs and the War of Five Kings was the result...there are lots of parallels.

I know that I would PERSONALLY rather have Robert as my liege than Rhaegar...that's my perogative. I prefer warmth and martial prowess to cold logic and ballads. Even Connington, Mooton, Dayne etc don't seem to have been that close to Rhaegar, he didn't allow that.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Not a fact, an assumption. We don't know what she told anyone. For all we know, her infatuation with Rhaegar was quite known among her family, and thus everyone in her family knew it was not a kidnapping to begin with.

Of course it's an assumption. Everything everyone says about R+L is an assumption. I thought that went without saying. It seems obvious, though, that Brandon and Rickard at least were in the dark, or they wouldn't have been baying for Rhaegar's blood, nor that Ned knew, because if he did, why try to extract her from the Tower of Joy if she wanted to be there? It seems (and of course I am assuming) that Lyanna never told her family that she wanted to go off with Rhaegar and stay with him. Ned likely figured it out based on what he saw in the ToJ, but he never told anyone, so it's the established story that it was an abduction.

Well, I think it's quite clear that she ran off with Rhaegar, at least initially. And I think she remained attached to him, given that she was clutching the blue roses Rhaegar gave her when Ned found her in the ToJ.

No, you are ASSUMING that she ran off with Rhaegar. You don't know for sure, and it likely will never be known exactly how it went down, as all the people involved are dead. And as I said, she may have had a crush on him without ever thinking it would come to what it did. That does not mean she didn't love him or want to be with him. It does seem odd that she would not communicate with her family at all... she was very close with her brothers. And I contend that it was her silence (whether by choice, necessity, or force) that allowed everyone to think the worst of that situation.

[Wolf Maid]

Based on examples that occurred after the Rebellion. For all you know, war based on kidnapping was not something expected until the Rebellion. As a matter of argument, your examples don't work.

I don’t see why the Rebellion would change the reactions. There isn’t much of a time difference in between, about 14 years. I doubt things changed that much.

Well, I don't think we know anything about what Brandon and Rickard thought. Brandon's response is not that typical of anyone, because no one else has charged into the Red Keep and threatened the Crown Prince before. It's possible that his response was based on the damage to his family honor, and not the idea that his sister was kidnapped. As for Rickard, I think it is most likely that Lyanna broached the idea of marriage with Rhaegar, but was shot down for it. Then once she ran off with Rhaegar, it was apparent to Rickard that it was no abduction. All opinion, of course, but all of it is possible.

We do know what other people heard. They heard that she was kidnapped. Brandon left immediately after hearing that. Ned fought and killed King’s Guard members to get to his sister. That is why I believe that they thought that she was taken. I don’t see any evidence of marriage between the two or the idea of marriage.

Again, they were probably waiting until tensions died down. And making a baby, I'd wager.

There was a war going on for at least 6 months, waiting for tensions to die down doesn’t make sense here.

Trusting Littlefinger, refusing Renly's aid, sending his own men off, etc. He could have easily defeated Cersei in the Game of Thrones, but instead he acted stupidly, leading to his own capture and the War of the Five Kings, and thus the deaths of thousands.

That is a stretch. He had reasons to trust Little Finger. He was a friend of his wife and had helped him before. Also, he didn’t take the children because he didn’t want to frighten them and he didn’t want to involve children in the fight. His actions here were selfless. There was no personal gain for Ned. There is also no clear connection to trusting Little Finger or not taking children in the middle of the night to the War of 5 Kings. There is a much clearer connection between abducting the daughter of the Warden of the North and hiding her away from her family and fiance to, at the very least, an uprising by the families you have wronged. Also, I have already explained that Rhaegar’s stupid mistakes aren’t the only reasons for my opinions on him.

[Dragonfish]

Of course it's an assumption.

Except you called it a fact.

Everything everyone says about R+L is an assumption. I thought that went without saying. It seems obvious, though, that Brandon and Rickard at least were in the dark, or they wouldn't have been baying for Rhaegar's blood,

Rickard was not baying for Rhaegar's blood. It's one thing to state assumptions as fact based on things we know, it's another thing entirely to base it on things that are completely made up.

The FACT is, we simply do not know what Rickard knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship. There is absolutely nothing in the text or in his reaction to events that tells us what he knew or believed. You are making a completely unfounded assumption and passing it off as "obvious."

As for Brandon, his actions suggest he believed it was a kidnapping, though they could just as easily suggest that he felt it was a slight on House Stark's honor. Simply put, we don't know for sure, either scenario is possible.

nor that Ned knew, because if he did, why try to extract her from the Tower of Joy if she wanted to be there?

Because she was being guarded by the Kingsguard, who could have been sent by either Rhaegar or Aerys. Just because Rhaegar or Aerys wanted to keep Lyanna from the rebels doesn't mean that she didn't go willingly, or that Ned didn't know she went willingly.

No, you are ASSUMING that she ran off with Rhaegar.

I am not assuming, I am arguing, based on strong evidence which I have already listed in this thread. I suggest you go back and read the last couple of pages to find my summation of the evidence, as I do not feel like repeating myself.