[aDwD spoilers] Revisiting Rhaegar

[tipopellet]

Not necessarily. Brandon may well have been in the South already when the news reached him. Consider the Houses of some of his companions when he came to KL: Arryn, Mallister and Royce. If they weren't all in the North for some reason their Houses lend themselves to the thought that Brandon was already in the Vale or in the Riverlands when the news reached him. This would have cut down on his travel time to KL.

For news to reach him he had to be in some important place and stationary for awhile otherwise how would whoever send the news know where to send it and where would he find ravens that fly to some obscure place in the middle of the road? If he found out by an accident, still he had to meet someone down the road who knew - that's highly unlikely unless the abduction was a very public event and there were many people who knew and were traveling through Westeros. In normal circumstances it would have taken quite some time for news about some hushed up event to reach Brandon especially if he was travelling at the moment.

We can't really say how tight it was exactly, so we can't say how instantly Rhaegar had to act.

I think we both can give him mere weeks if not days. Again why was the need to have another baby so urgent? I've seen no answer yet. It's not like Rhaegar was too old or that there were a shortage of unbethroned maidens to have his child one way or another if he so decided. Was it because he wanted Lyanna and nobody else? Why did he waited a year since Harenhaal then if it must have been her and nobody else? What with this future child's bastard status? What about his actual wife, what to do with her? There are lots of issues to think through and do something about. Quite a few of them if attended properly would require months of research, negotiations and political maneuvring. What was his reasoning when he decided just ignore them all and went head first after Lyanna?

It looks too much like one moment he was patient and rather happy (he got his tPtwP in Aegon after all) and then just snapped and went completely mad, dropped everything took his guard and went and kidnapped Lyanna from wherever she was. But we see him through Jaime eyes later and he seems to be pretty sane and sober.

Besides he never looked like a passionate guy. Even his much talked about "obsession" with prophecy doesn't make him overexcited and proud but rather sad and resolved, he sees it as his duty more then anything, he makes personal sacrifices - drops his harp and picks sword instead, determined not to fail humanity when darkness comes. I think he would do what he thought was required of him including even kidnapping Lyanna probably but he wouldn't do it in a rush and on a whim. He isn't Brandon or Robert. And he's no Mad King.

It wouldn't have required months or even weeks to come to a decision.

Really? Well, the notion that he must find some other woman to have another baby is no brainer, true, but why does it have to be Lyanna? And once he decided it had to be her for some reason, don't you think he would need some time to think through and prepare for the consequences whatever mild he expected them to be? He never shown as being impulsive or stupid. He's shown as being thoughtfull and dutiful.

And again why does it have to be NOW? Even if Lyanna was to be married soon (though it isn't hinted at anywhere) it's not next month or right after Brandon. He still has quite some time to try and find out some other way than kidnapping.

As for knowing where she was, why shouldn't he've known where she was? I don't think the Starks would've made a secret of Lyanna's whereabouts.

But still Westeros is big, people do travel and it's been awhile since Harenhaal - he had to keep tabs on her or something, unless she was at KL as most people seem to think.

If Lyanna had planned to attend Brandon's wedding, Rhaegar may have wanted to get to Lyanna before she was joined by her family which would have made it more difficult to elope with her.

Or he could have got her after the wedding. Or when she was on the way to her own wedding etc. There are multiple possibilities that are just as good (or bad). Doesn't explain why the rush.

As for removing Aerys, Selmy's thoughts lend themselves to think that Rhaegar may have been among the last to see what had become of Aerys.

Wasn't he planning to organize something quietly at Harrenhaal? That would be a year before Rebellion, so he wasn't blind to his father follies, he was trying to figure out the most peaceful way to deal with him.

[corbon]

I read the thread. My contention is that all Brandon had to hear was that Rhaegar took Lyanna by force. I'm not sure what sort of tampering would need to be done to get that reaction. I'm saying none.

Good for you. Pick one possibility, and refuse the possibility of all others? That's how you sound.

What does this even mean? She must share some of the responsibility, so privately, when he gets a hold of her, he will surely have at her. But when it comes to getting her back from the prince who has her under guard in a tower somewhere, and who is having sex with her without her father's permission, I would think her consent would have little moderating effect. The grown man who used force to take the 15 year old girl would still likely bear the lion's share of the responsibility.

It means there is a big difference between a real, non-consensual abduction and a consensual 'abduction'.

Both are tricky to resolve, but one contains real concern for the family member, and the other concern only for property and rights.

Why do you keep insisting that this I am saying, when I am explicitly NOT saying this? It was a diplomatic cluster fuck. Baratheon was not going to stand for it. I'm not sure Dorne would have liked it. Aerys seemed unhappy about it. It is far more consequential than "his daughter's honor," though it's not impossible that would be a big motivator in itself, factored in with other issues.

Sorry. My mistake. My impression was that the argument was that Rhaegar caused the war because a non-consensual abduction is a lot more serious and has fewer possibilities of resolution than a consensual abduction.

I'm not assuming, I'm conjecturing, just like you. I can't picture Oberyn Martell approving of his sister being second fiddle in her marriage. Maybe if Elia was totally OK with it, which we do not know. We also don't know if she was being set aside, as clearly Rhaegar had left her and was with his new woman for what? A year? Leaving her and her children with his crazy father.

If you conjecture, then deny any other possibility, then your conjecture has become an assumption. Sorry, that's still what your statements continue to look like to me.

I'm conjecturing, yes, but I am not saying that my conjectures are 'what happened' and I am not denying the possibility (even probability in some cases) of the arguments you are providing. All I'm saying is that there are more than one possibility around many or even all of the events and we can't definitively pick one over the other. In many cases, nearly all cases, we have almost no evidence to even favour one case over another.

See, this is insulting too. "Get some basics under your belt!" Please. That's just rude. When was the last polygamous Targaryen marriage? The religion of Seven does not approve of it, and it hadn't happened in recent memory. Rhaegar may have married Lyanna, but there is zero evidence that he did. If that's your contention, that there was a secret marriage, then we will have to wait for Martin to give some indication that this happened. Otherwise, the child is a bastard. You also assume that the Starks would be OK with a)Lyanna marrying without permission, B) being the second in a polygamous marriage, and c) that Dorne would be OK with Elia being in a polygamous marriage. No facts in evidence that this would be the case.

Sorry, it was perhaps insulting, but it seems to fit since you still appear to deny the possibility (actually I think probability based on KG at ToJ, but that's a whole other discussion) of Targaryen polygamy.

Fact is I don't assume your a), your b ), or your c). What I take as a possibility, even probability, is that Rhaegar and Lyanna believed that they could work a), b ) and c) out after everything was presented as a fait accompli.

I'm sorry, but I find this a silly theory. Ned and Rickard were at Winterfell. That would indicate that Ned knew that Lyanna was married to Rhaegar in a polygamous union, yet in his POVs, we never hear that. No one once mentions polygamy wrt R+L, just a crazy love affair. How do you imagine this fact would be revealed? Who would even know that hasn't spoke up at this point? Howland Reed?

Umm, what is your evidence for Ned at Winterfell?

He was based at the Eyrie most recently, was last seen by us at Harrenhal, was due at Brandon's wedding in Riverrun in about a month and was next found at the Eyrie with Robert and Jon Arryn when Aerys demanded his head.

There is no evidence, nor any reason, why he would be at Winterfell.

We can't be sure of anything, but it just does not seem remotely likely to me. It doesn't fit with anything we know. So while anything is possible, when I think about how things went down, that's not a scenario that comes to mind.

Please show a single thing, that is not a blunder like placing Ned in the wrong location, that it does not fit with.

It seems to be the accepted narrative by both sides of the issues, so I'm accepting it too. This flailing about for doubt and alternative theories when there's plenty of reason to accept what we know is a bit silly.

Congratulations. You have accepted Robert and Viserys as creators of the narrative.

These are the only two viewpoints that create this narrative (Bran and Dany are only spouting what they heard). Neither of them were involved, and neither of them could tie their own mental shoelaces. But if they are good enough for you...

I'm saying it doesn't matter. Just the facts would have been enough to set Brandon off: Rhaegar took Lyanna by force. Period. Don't you think?

Sure, probably. He might also have been set off just by the fact that Rhaegar took Lyanna, even consensually.

Nobody knows what set him off, and nobody knows if it was accurate or not either.

Can we say that Brandon didn't know? Or why would he throw himself away over it? If Ned knew, he made no mention of it in his POVs, and that absence seems notable. We don't know what Rickard knew and I don't think it matters.

We have no idea what Brandon 'knew', nor what would be required to set him off.

Ned has no known reaction, so isn't part of the equation. The chances are he was at the Eyrie and learned nothing until it was too late.

If anyone had hard word, it would be Rickard. And we don't see any reaction from him - he comes south at the behest of Aerys to answer from Brandon, nothing about Lyanna is mentioned.

[Markus]

For news to reach him he had to be in some important place and stationary for awhile otherwise how would whoever send the news know where to send it and where would he find ravens that fly to some obscure place in the middle of the road?

I don't see that Lyanna's abduction would have been hushed up. Whoever was with Lyanna or was responsible for her would have sent news of this as soon as possible. And it's not really difficult to imagine scenarios in which Brandon didn't have to wait weeks for news of Lyanna's abduction to reach him. Brandon could have been near the place where Lyanna was staying because he was supposed to pick her up there on his way to Riverrun. Or he could recently have left the Eyrie -- visiting Ned, picking up Elbert Arryn -- when a raven was sent there after Lyanna's abduction. Then another raven could have been sent to the Bloody Gate ahead of him.

[snip Why was Rhaegar in a rush and why Lyanna?]

There may have been some trigger we've yet to learn about. Or maybe he foresaw his death in the near future? Maybe he was acting on Lyanna's wishes? Maybe he was genuinely in love and didn't want to waste any time?

Moreover, he may not have been in such a rush as you assume. I certainly see no reason to assume that he only had days to plan and act out his next moves after Aegon's birth. He may have had as much as 3-4 weeks even. And I'm not sure that more time would've been useful. He already "knew" that he needed a third child. He knew that Elia couldn't give him this child. He was impressed by Lyanna from Harrenhal, maybe even in love. He probably also knew that the Starks would never break off Lyanna's engagement to Robert even if he asked so there was no "legitimate" way to get Lyanna.

And when he wanted Lyanna and nobody else why should he have waited in the first place? When he would've waited he might also have risked that Lyanna would be back in Winterfell and then married to Robert. Perhaps the moment he acted was ideal to spirit her away with as little force as possible because Lyanna wasn't with her family and lightly attended.

As to an eventual child's status and Elia, we don't know that he didn't think about these points before he "kidnapped" Lyanna. Perhaps he did. Probably even. It wouldn't take much time to inform Elia of his intentions or not inform her as the case may be. It wouldn't take much time to decide he could marry Lyanna or that the child needn't be legitimate to do what it needed to do. Certainly not months or even weeks.

It looks too much like one moment he was patient and rather happy (he got his tPtwP in Aegon after all) and then just snapped and went completely mad, dropped everything took his guard and went and kidnapped Lyanna from wherever she was.

Even when he seemed content with Aegon and Elia his thoughts were on the third head already.

And once he decided it had to be her for some reason, don't you think he would need some time to think through and prepare for the consequences whatever mild he expected them to be? He never shown as being impulsive or stupid. He's shown as being thoughtfull and dutiful.

Perhaps Rhaegar's strategy was going incommunicado? This wouldn't have required lots of preparation. And once Lyanna was pregnant -- and possibly married -- there was little the Starks or Robert could do anymore. Or that may have been what Rhaegar believed.

But still Westeros is big, people do travel and it's been awhile since Harenhaal - he had to keep tabs on her or something, unless she was at KL as most people seem to think.

So he kept informed about her when you like. Seems reasonable when he cared for her. Though I would assume that all Great House and the court are more or less informed about where the children of the other Great Houses are fostered. It's part of keeping track of alliances being made.

Wasn't he planning to organize something quietly at Harrenhaal? That would be a year before Rebellion, so he wasn't blind to his father follies, he was trying to figure out the most peaceful way to deal with him.

We don't know this. Aerys believing Rhaegar was plotting against him doesn't make it so. But even if Rhaegar was moving against Aerys at Harrenhal it doesn't mean he was a patient man in general or incapable of rashness and being emotional. Plotting against your king and father was a special case and may have required patience in Rhaegar's mind. While crowning Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty surely seemed a rash and emotional act.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Good for you. Pick one possibility, and refuse the possibility of all others? That's how you sound.

That's how you are painting me so that you can feel like you're right. Straw man. I'm talking probability and likelihoods.

It means there is a big difference between a real, non-consensual abduction and a consensual 'abduction'.

Both are tricky to resolve, but one contains real concern for the family member, and the other concern only for property and rights.

Of course, if they think she's being raped to death, they would be more concerned. There is no evidence of any communication from her to her family. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but is it crazy to think someone would have mentioned it? Like Ned, or Catelyn? Wouldn't you feel a little aggravated if, after 6 books, suddenly we find out that the Starks knew about the whole thing, never worried that she was raped, never thought she was kidnapped? Even after we have had POVs from that family, and we know that the kids (Bran, specifically) have heard the rape narrative?

Sorry. My mistake. My impression was that the argument was that Rhaegar caused the war because a non-consensual abduction is a lot more serious and has fewer possibilities of resolution than a consensual abduction.

Well, I never said that and don't think it. I think it was consensual. I'm not sure it matters as much as you do, though.

If you conjecture, then deny any other possibility, then your conjecture has become an assumption. Sorry, that's still what your statements continue to look like to me.

What possibilities am I denying? I am giving my take on the story. You are extrapolating that I am denying the other possibilities but that's on you.

Sorry, it was perhaps insulting, but it seems to fit since you still appear to deny the possibility (actually I think probability based on KG at ToJ, but that's a whole other discussion) of Targaryen polygamy.

Fact is I don't assume your a), your b ), or your c). What I take as a possibility, even probability, is that Rhaegar and Lyanna believed that they could work a), b ) and c) out after everything was presented as a fait accompli.

I do not think polygamy happened here, only b/c it had only ever been brought up by fans making wild theories and not anyone in the books. It could have, but I don't think so. I'm entitled to think differently from you, absent evidence either way, without being accused of denying anything.

Umm, what is your evidence for Ned at Winterfell?

You're right, he was in the Vale, my bad. Sorry. I knew that, too, but got caught up in the argument and got it wrong. I don't think it makes a difference, though. Seems likely there was communication b/w Winterfell and the Vale re: this situation. If not, when Ned got to Winterfell, certainly he would have been apprised of the situation.

Congratulations. You have accepted Robert and Viserys as creators of the narrative.

These are the only two viewpoints that create this narrative (Bran and Dany are only spouting what they heard). Neither of them were involved, and neither of them could tie their own mental shoelaces. But if they are good enough for you...

Ummmm. No. Viserys was a child and also only spouting what he heard. He must have heard it from someone who was a Targaryen supporter, as who else was he associating with? Thus, my inference is that the pro-Targs were also admitting that Rhaegar took Lyanna at sword point. We have never heard any other version of events from either side of things. Occam's razor.

We have no idea what Brandon 'knew', nor what would be required to set him off.

No idea? We have a good idea: Rhaegar took Lyanna. That's what happened, even if Lyanna went along. Chances are swords were involved.

Ned has no known reaction, so isn't part of the equation. The chances are he was at the Eyrie and learned nothing until it was too late.

Sigh. We had a book full of Ned's POV, and no mention of anyone receiving word from Lyanna once she was at ToJ. He seems as in the dark as everyone else. Once Rickard was dead and Ned was at Winterfell, he would have been the one receiving communications from her. Is there any evidence he did? Why wasn't it ever mentioned?

I think you are far more willing to imagine letters, conspiracies, additional knowledge, than I am. I'm going with what we've been told across 5 books. I realize Martin is a writer who enjoys complexity and ambiguity, but until we know for sure (and we may never), I feel like I have to stick with known narratives and probabilities. I'm not DENYING anything, but sharing how *I* read the story.

[Salander]

Why do you keep insisting that this I am saying, when I am explicitly NOT saying this? It was a diplomatic cluster fuck. Baratheon was not going to stand for it. I'm not sure Dorne would have liked it. Aerys seemed unhappy about it. It is far more consequential than "his daughter's honor," though it's not impossible that would be a big motivator in itself, factored in with other issues.

I'm not assuming, I'm conjecturing, just like you. I can't picture Oberyn Martell approving of his sister being second fiddle in her marriage. Maybe if Elia was totally OK with it, which we do not know. We also don't know if she was being set aside, as clearly Rhaegar had left her and was with his new woman for what? A year? Leaving her and her children with his crazy father.

See, this is insulting too. "Get some basics under your belt!" Please. That's just rude. When was the last polygamous Targaryen marriage? The religion of Seven does not approve of it, and it hadn't happened in recent memory. Rhaegar may have married Lyanna, but there is zero evidence that he did. If that's your contention, that there was a secret marriage, then we will have to wait for Martin to give some indication that this happened. Otherwise, the child is a bastard. You also assume that the Starks would be OK with a)Lyanna marrying without permission, B) being the second in a polygamous marriage, and c) that Dorne would be OK with Elia being in a polygamous marriage. No facts in evidence that this would be the case.

I agree and I've argued something similar: just because the Targs practiced polygamy (and they did, and for various reasons) does not mean that this automatically extends to R+L.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I agree and I've argued something similar: just because the Targs practiced polygamy (and they did, and for various reasons) does not mean that this automatically extends to R+L.

It doesn't even likely extend to them. There is ZERO mention of it from any quarter, and you think there would have been by now. The presence of Kingsguard doesn't prove it either: a child of Rhaegar's being born would be enough.

[Pate Peet]

snip

He was at Harrenhal when it all happened, so he would have had a pretty good idea of what happened, though it's not clear if anyone witnessed their departure.

snip

It is very unlikely (nearly impossible, timeline wise) that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off together right from Harrenhal. If they ran off in front of half the realm, the war would have started right then. Why would Brandon go to Riverrun for the duel, then go on an errand, only then hear about a "kidnapping" that happened right under his nose at Harrenhal.

No, Lyanna must have been elsewhere, not with Rhaegar, for a while after Harrenhal.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

It is very unlikely (nearly impossible, timeline wise) that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off together right from Harrenhal. If they ran off in front of half the realm, the war would have started right then. Why would Brandon go to Riverrun for the duel, then go on an errand, only then hear about a "kidnapping" that happened right under his nose at Harrenhal.

No, Lyanna must have been elsewhere, not with Rhaegar, for a while after Harrenhal.

Yes, I read that Martin said it was a year or so. The books were unclear on the subject and I didn't see that clarification until I read it on the site.

[Dragonfish]

Nope. That wasn't my contention at all. My response was to your "evidence" that Ned thought well of Rhaegar. Does one passing thought about Rhaegar and brothels, when Ned is pretty upset with Robert, mean that he has a good opinion of Rhaegar that extends across the spectrum? No. It doesn't.

No, but Ned's thought here is not consistent with the idea that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. If Ned believed this is what occurred, does it seem likely that his first thought on Rhaegar in a long time would be that he didn't go to brothels? I can promise you that if someone raped my sister, I wouldn't think to myself at some point, "yeah, I'll bet that guy never patronized prostitutes." Just not the sort of thing you say about your sister's rapist.

My second point on Arthur Dayne is simple: you can admire people for certain qualities, but it doesn't mean that you "like" them or will stop you from fighting them (and in Ned's case, killing them) to get to your sister in the ToJ.

Actually, my second point was to reinforce my first point - something, it appears, you agree with.

I...don't see how this point helps you at all. First of all, just because Ned fought Arthur Dayne doesn't mean he didn't "like" him. In fact, we know that he admired him. He expresses no negative thoughts about him. And if someone can fight someone even if they admire him, then why couldn't Ned fight against Rhaegar (or at least, Rhaegar's side) even if he thought well of him? You've undermined your own point, not reinforced it.

[Silverin]

No, but Ned's thought here is not consistent with the idea that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. If Ned believed this is what occurred, does it seem likely that his first thought on Rhaegar in a long time would be that he didn't go to brothels? I can promise you that if someone raped my sister, I wouldn't think to myself at some point, "yeah, I'll bet that guy never patronized prostitutes." Just not the sort of thing you say about your sister's rapist.

This is no evidence that he knew BEFORE the ToJ that Lyanna might was willing. Just because by the time he was the Hand of the King he was aware thet Rhaegar was probably no rapist (he was there when Lyanna died, he heared the truth what happened, at least I hope so), it does not mean he was awre of it even during the Rebellion.

[Dragonfish]

Not true. You are the one using terms like "facts" and "evidence" in relation to this narrative strand - when there are none (or very few in the text).

I only use the word "fact" when something is actually a fact. I never said it was a fact that Ned is merely trying to distract Robert from thoughts of Rhaegar and Lyanna in this scene. I merely offered it as an alternative, because you were giving only one interpretation of that scene and acting as if it was the only one.

After reading this chapter three times, my interpretation is that too much is made of it in relation to how Ned felt about Rhaegar. Ned seems to reserve a particularly sympathetic forgiveness for those who are dead. He reserves his greatest antipathy for those who are still alive (i.e. Jaime Lannister).

So are you saying that Ned holds no antipathy for the man who supposedly raped his sister?

I'm sorry, but Ned's thought on Rhaegar in this chapter is pretty significant, because it's the only thought Ned has on Rhaegar. And the fact that his only thought about him in a long time happens to be somewhat positive, implies that Ned doesn't really think ill of Rhaegar. That is very, very difficult to reconcile with the theory that Lyanna was raped.

No. I don't think it does mean this. This is where you and I differ fundamentally in our conclusions. I read this as Dany "taking what she wanted" because she is Queen i.e. in a powerful position to do so. "Taking what you want" doesn't imply consent.

In what way is Dany "taking what she wanted" in this scene? She doesn't want to marry Hizdahr, but she has to. She wants Daario. I don't see how you can possibly argue that Dany is "taking what she wanted." It just seems like you're reading a different book.

Technically? Actually, I think it is relevant, especially in terms of how the R+L story has been taught to the next generation

The story itself is relevant. But that's not what I was referring to as being technically irrelevant. I was talking about your statement, "a sad story made possible by an irresponsible Crown Prince." This point, while relevant to the larger discussion at hand ("Revisiting Rhaegar"), was not relevant to the specific question we were debating, namely, whether or not Meera calling it a "sad story" implies that Lyanna was kidnapped. I'm arguing that the story is sad either way, and therefore Meera's statement is not evidence for either theory. Your statement about Rhaegar being irresponsible was outside the scope of this specific argument.

Yes, but the material point of my post was that Selmy wasn't unbiased (in response to another poster) and was a Targ supporter.

As I've said in multiple threads, Selmy isn't that biased, because he's honest with Dany about her father's madness.

My position is and as you've just outlined, Selmy's description of Rhaegar as "the best of all" is because many of the other Targs were questionable.

That is a pretty gross misreading of the text. First of all, there were great Targs. Selmy doesn't need to search for the Targs who were "the least crazy" in order to find a good one. Aegon V is one of those "great Targs", and Selmy specifically states that Rhaegar was better than even him. That's a superlative compliment, not a statement about Rhaegar being the "least bad" of them all.

[Dragonfish]

This is no evidence that he knew BEFORE the ToJ that Lyanna might was willing. Just because by the time he was the Hand of the King he was aware thet Rhaegar was probably no rapist (he was there when Lyanna died, he heared the truth what happened, at least I hope so), it does not mean he was awre of it even during the Rebellion.

True. But he may be aware of the truth now, which is relevant.

[Dragonfish]

And I have not appreciated your tone either. The condescension is so think I'd need Valyrian steel to cut it.

As I said, I may get a little heated in threads sometimes. But I try to avoid slinging direct insults, which you've done. Can you point to a spot where I've called you an idiot, or obtuse, or stupid?

Saying he would have acted more prudently than Brandon is a non-statement. It still may have come to war.

It's not a non-statement. We're arguing over Rhaegar's character, and Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions. If Rhaegar and Lyanna anticipated Rickard to be the one making decisions for the Starks, and they anticipated him to act more prudently than Brandon, then that puts their actions in a somewhat better light.

I'm saying it doesn't matter. Just the facts would have been enough to set Brandon off: Rhaegar took Lyanna by force. Period. Don't you think?

Yes, I've said as much. Why do you keep asking me questions I've already answered?

But just because Rheagar took Lyanna away by force of arms doesn't mean that Lyanna didn't want him to take her away, the same way Dany wanted Daario to take her away.

Can we say that Brandon didn't know? Or why would he throw himself away over it? If Ned knew, he made no mention of it in his POVs, and that absence seems notable. We don't know what Rickard knew and I don't think it matters.

Well, I think it's probably more likely that Brandon believed she was kidnapped, but I don't think it's the only option.

We also don't know what Ned knew before the ToJ. But the fact that he doesn't think about it is not all that notable. I mean, he never even thinks about Jon's parentage or anything like that (at least not explicitly).

As for Rickard, well, I think it does matter what he thought, because that changes slightly what we think about Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions. But yes, we don't know what he knew or didn't know.

[Silverin]

True. But he may be aware of the truth now, which is relevant. And I still don't see how the example of Arthur Dayne supports your argument.

I wasn't even the one who was arguing about Arthur Dayne, so you replied to the wrong poster.

The reason why I said this, because it seemed to me that the argument was about how much could it be well known wether Lyanna was willing (if she was) and such. And to that I pointed out that statement from Ned is not an evidence that he know it before the ToJ scene. It could be only used that he was awre of the truth years after the Rebellion.

I think to actually know what has happened we lack a very crucial information, and that is Lyanna. In all the possible explanations and storytellings Lyanna ws an extremly passive character both in the unwilling and willing theory. For example at the scene where Rhaegar gave her the rose at the tourney we have no knowledge about Lyanna's true feelings about it, wether she was bothered by it, or blushed. We only has the all smile faded remark, which can include Lyanna as well and if it does it means she was not happy about it either. And with this passiveness I am very much bothered especially knowing what a wild girl she was.

So I still have my doubts. I do not believe that it was a simply two lovers decided to elope scenario. That scenario would be a tragic love song and as we were told in the very first book, life is not that. Ask Sansa.

[Dragonfish]

I wasn't even the one who was arguing about Arthur Dayne, so you replied to the wrong poster.

Oops, sorry about that, got you confused with someone else.

The reason why I said this, because it seemed to me that the argument was about how much could it be well known wether Lyanna was willing (if she was) and such. And to that I pointed out that statement from Ned is not an evidence that he know it before the ToJ scene. It could be only used that he was awre of the truth years after the Rebellion.

I didn't say that this specific statement was evidence about what Ned thought before the ToJ.

And with this passiveness I am very much bothered especially knowing what a wild girl she was.

What passiveness? If anything, Lyanna is more passive if she's a mere kidnapping victim. But if she chose to run off with Rhaegar, then that makes her complicit in her own downfall. That sounds a lot like GRRM's style to me.

So I still have my doubts. I do not believe that it was a simply two lovers decided to elope scenario. That scenario would be a tragic love song and as we were told in the very first book, life is not that. Ask Sansa.

Except that their love is not merely tragic. It also leads to the deaths of several of their family members, and many thousands of others. In other words, their actions, while well-intentioned, had unintended consequences. Whereas if Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her, then he's basically just evil, and so's his father. That doesn't sound much like GRRM to me.

[Sasha Steelsong]

This is no evidence that he knew BEFORE the ToJ that Lyanna might was willing. Just because by the time he was the Hand of the King he was aware thet Rhaegar was probably no rapist (he was there when Lyanna died, he heared the truth what happened, at least I hope so), it does not mean he was awre of it even during the Rebellion.

Agreed. It is safe to say that by the time he died Ned was not having what one would call normal thoughts about the man who supposedly raped his sister (the thought about the brothels and the complementary-ish light it gives Rhaegar). But that doesn't mean that he didn't think Rhaegar was a rapist/abductor at the time before he found Lyanna.

I'm a big fan of the theory that Brandon going to KL was the result of some major miscommunication between Lyanna and her family (the message was either lost, intercepted, or sent to the wrong place such that Brandon didn't know the full story) in part because people are always acting on only partially known information throughout the series and we've seen that it can lead to disasterous consequences (for example: Sansa not knowing the full story and running to tell Cersei her dad's plans). It would be fitting for Robert's Rebellion to have started in a similar fashion.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

As I said, I may get a little heated in threads sometimes. But I try to avoid slinging direct insults, which you've done. Can you point to a spot where I've called you an idiot, or obtuse, or stupid?

I think your argument is obtuse. Not you. Obviously you are quite excellent at rhetoric. However, I have to say, this whole "Anything could have happened unless 3 POV characters explicitly state it" thing strikes me as an obtuse way of looking at the books. That is not a direct insult to you, only my feeling about that way of viewing the books. At some point, you have to draw some conclusions and hold to them unless evidence refutes it. I don't feel anyone has adequately refuted mine.

It's not a non-statement. We're arguing over Rhaegar's character, and Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions. If Rhaegar and Lyanna anticipated Rickard to be the one making decisions for the Starks, and they anticipated him to act more prudently than Brandon, then that puts their actions in a somewhat better light.

First of all, what's silly here is thinking that somehow Rickard, who couldn't keep tabs on his own daughter, would somehow be the sole reactor here. Brandon was not in Winterfell and was going to find out and react before he and Rickard could communicate, assuming that Rickard could rein him in anyway. I don't think R+L could make any plans that Rickard "would be the one making decisions." My feeling is that they didn't think things through or didn't give a damn, b/c Lyanna seems like an insightful girl and could have surmised that Brandon would freak out. It was clear before this that the Starks disapproved of Rhaegar's attentions to Lyanna, so Brandon's feelings were known to her. It's a non-statement to say Rickard's reaction would have been more prudent b/c ANY reaction short of what Brandon did would have been more prudent.

Yes, I've said as much. Why do you keep asking me questions I've already answered?

"Don't you think?" is a rhetorical question. Huffy again, I see.

But just because Rheagar took Lyanna away by force of arms doesn't mean that Lyanna didn't want him to take her away, the same way Dany wanted Daario to take her away.

I never disputed that she probably did. But keep saying it over and over if you need to.

Well, I think it's probably more likely that Brandon believed she was kidnapped, but I don't think it's the only option.

It's the option I'm going with, as it's the one that best fits his reaction. Will happily revise when/if we get more facts.

We also don't know what Ned knew before the ToJ. But the fact that he doesn't think about it is not all that notable. I mean, he never even thinks about Jon's parentage or anything like that (at least not explicitly).

If Lyanna was communicating from ToJ, wouldn't someone, somewhere have said something about it? I understand keeping her consent secret after her death, as Ned had to protect Jon from Robert and Tywin. However, if it had been revealed before the end of the war that Lyanna wanted to be with Rhaegar, was married to him, etc., that could really have changed the course of the war. I'm not sure why it would have been kept secret. Maybe you have a reason, and if so I'd be interested in hearing it.

[Pate Peet]

Two things have just occurred to me:

1) There was a lot of fighting going on in the Dornish Marches, fairly early: Summerhall battles, Ashford, likely other skirmishes. Assuming Rhaegar is at the ToJ, it makes sense that he would only be able to head towards KL safely AFTER Robert is fleeing north/to Stony Sept. Staying at the ToJ would be a safer plan, up until he is sure that Loyalist have control of the trip to KL.

2) Ethan Glover was of Brandon's original party to KL. He also with Ned at the ToJ. Ned may have gotten some information about Brandon's actions/motivation. The usual problem of everyone involved being dead makes that not all that useful. AKA, Howland Reed will know.

Lastly, anyone else find it odd/ironic that Robert was so close to the ToJ at the battle of Ashford?

[Dragonfish]

I think your argument is obtuse. Not you.

You said, "I feel like you're being obtuse, here." It was directed at me, not my argument.

First of all, what's silly here is thinking that somehow Rickard, who couldn't keep tabs on his own daughter, would somehow be the sole reactor here.

Why? He's the lord, and apparently had a lot of control over his children. I think it's fair to argue that Lyanna and Rhaegar may have been more focused on his reaction, and not Brandon's. And I don't think it's fair to say that Lyanna and Rhaegar ought to have expected Brandon to ride all the way to King's Landing and threaten Rhaegar.

I never disputed that she probably did. But keep saying it over and over if you need to.

You're the one who keeps saying over and over that Rhaegar took her with arms, which I've already admitted is probably true. I'm only saying over and over that she went willingly in order to provide context for your statement.

If Lyanna was communicating from ToJ, wouldn't someone, somewhere have said something about it?

I never said Lyanna communicated from the ToJ. I think it's possible that Ned picked up on his sister's infatuation with Rhaegar, so when he heard about the "kidnapping", he surmised that there may have been more to it. Obviously I have nothing from the text that indicates this, I just think it's a possibility.

I understand keeping her consent secret after her death, as Ned had to protect Jon from Robert and Tywin. However, if it had been revealed before the end of the war that Lyanna wanted to be with Rhaegar, was married to him, etc., that could really have changed the course of the war.

No it wouldn't. The war was not just about Lyanna and Rhaegar, it was also about Aerys. No rebel lord is going to yield to a king who has just executed lords who had committed no crime. And if Ned told Robert his suspicions about Rhaegar and Lyanna, I'm certain Robert would have refused to believe it, and may have grown more distant from Ned as a result. Not exactly a good idea to drive a wedge between two of your commanders during wartime.

[Dragonfish]

Two things have just occurred to me:

1) There was a lot of fighting going on in the Dornish Marches, fairly early: Summerhall battles, Ashford, likely other skirmishes. Assuming Rhaegar is at the ToJ, it makes sense that he would only be able to head towards KL safely AFTER Robert is fleeing north/to Stony Sept. Staying at the ToJ would be a safer plan, up until he is sure that Loyalist have control of the trip to KL.

2) Ethan Glover was of Brandon's original party to KL. He also with Ned at the ToJ. Ned may have gotten some information about Brandon's actions/motivation. The usual problem of everyone involved being dead makes that not all that useful. AKA, Howland Reed will know.

Interesting points. I found them both quite plausible.