[aDwD spoilers] Revisiting Rhaegar

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

And now for something slightly different...

What was the timeline for when Elia died wrt when Rhaegar left the ToJ and died? Was there a chance that he married Lyanna after Elia died? I am too tired to do this research right now and I know someone will know the answer off the top of their head.

[Dragonfish]

And now for something slightly different...

What was the timeline for when Elia died wrt when Rhaegar left the ToJ and died? Was there a chance that he married Lyanna after Elia died? I am too tired to do this research right now and I know someone will know the answer off the top of their head.

Rhaegar died before Elia did, so no, there's no chance he married Lyanna after Elia died.

[TheKingsWolf]

It doesn't matter if Rhaegar was a good fighter or not. It doesn't matter if he suffered from depression or some other mental illness. The one thing the Rhaegar wanking parade can't answer is how a man who abandons his wife and children to elope with a young girl with no regard for the consequences (the death of his entire family) can be considered the paragon of virtue they would like us all to bow down and worship. If you saw any person act in this way I seriously doubt any of you would hold that person in high regard. Any attempt to rationalize this must either conclude that Rhaegar is extremely selfish/vain or extremely Machiavellian (will do whatever evil is necessary to ultimately succeed).

This is all very simple and the rest of the arguments are irrelevant.

[Jon AS]

Any attempt to rationalize this must either conclude that Rhaegar is extremely selfish/vain or extremely Machiavellian (will do whatever evil is necessary to ultimately succeed).

Or, you know, one could consider the possibility that people are complicated, and thus a character can be both a good person, generally speaking, and make grievous mistakes that have dire consequences. It's not like that's unprecedented in the books.

[Dragonfish]

No one ever mentions it. Good enough for me.

No one mentions anything that happened between Harrenhal and Lyanna's "kidnapping." I guess nothing happened between those two events, because we hear nothing about it.

He certainly didn't contact the Lord of Winterfell

Evidence? We've gone over this already, I think, yet you still claim it's a fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna never contacted Rickard or otherwise let him know of their intentions with each other.

Sense of humor? Anywhere?

I could ask you the same question, since my comment was meant to be humorous as well.

Are they real? It seems like they tend to fulfill themselves. Look to such classical templates are Macbeth and Oedipus: trying to avoid the prophesies CAUSES them to be fulfilled. We see this with Dany.

My god, you're right, I can't believe Rhaegar didn't take his lessons from Macbeth and Oedipus Rex. How could he have been so blind to the themes surrounding prophecies as found in other works that don't exist in his own world?

Oh, and Dany never tried to avoid any prophecy, certainly not the way Macbeth and Oedipus' father did. She fulfilled the prophecy by trying to fulfill it, though she didn't know the prophecy existed at the time.

I don't think all prophesies are equal, and Rhaegar bases his LIFE around them, which is certainly not particularly healthy behavior.

And yet, he was right in the end.

You will note that I don't need the sleep thing to get two, and we do have Selmy talking about him sleeping alone up in Summerhall under the moon. It's a wisp, but it's as much as you go on sometimes.

Well, seeing as how he goes to Summerhall alone, it's pretty clear that if he wants to sleep there he's going to have to do it alone. I don't think this counts as sleep trouble, which for the purposes of this discussion means sleeping too much or too little. We have no indication of how he slept.

You do reckless things that ruin people's lives.

As for as we know, "kidnapping" Lyanna was the only reckless thing Rhaegar ever did. One example of recklessness does not equate to a pattern of recklessness.

I didn't admit he never had manic episodes.

You said in one of your previous posts above:

"E. No manic episodes"

It actually makes me more sympathetic to him to think of him this way and not some selfish, arrogant prince who just takes what he wants.

I don't think him being an arrogant selfish prince or him being depressed are the are the only two options.

This is just an exercise in silliness now, as I think I've made my case. Sorry your perfect Rhaegar suffers from a mental illness.

There you go, throwing around the "perfect" moniker again, as if that's what I'm arguing. I've accepted your position that you don't hate Rhaegar, could you please accept my position that I don't consider him to be perfect? It just seems like it's easier for you to debate the position that he's perfect, and you're therefore ignoring what I'm actually arguing.

[BFG]

Pervasive sense of doom = hopelessness

Except Rhaegar isn't hopeless. Making assumptions (and I know it's an assumption) that the prophecy is about the Others, his reaction isn't to give up - how I equate hopelessness - but to try and do something about it. So he changes from a bookish lad to a knight, ie he's trying to do something about it - that's not hopeless.

It doesn't matter if Rhaegar was a good fighter or not. It doesn't matter if he suffered from depression or some other mental illness. The one thing the Rhaegar wanking parade can't answer is how a man who abandons his wife and children to elope with a young girl with no regard for the consequences (the death of his entire family) can be considered the paragon of virtue they would like us all to bow down and worship. If you saw any person act in this way I seriously doubt any of you would hold that person in high regard. Any attempt to rationalize this must either conclude that Rhaegar is extremely selfish/vain or extremely Machiavellian (will do whatever evil is necessary to ultimately succeed).

This is all very simple and the rest of the arguments are irrelevant.

This is actually my biggest problem in the series. With the exception of Robbert Rhaegar is remembered either with indifference or fondness or love by a great many, different people. I can't reconcile this with someone who would recklessly endanger his wife and children to run off with another girl.

In defence of the "with no regard for the consequences (the death of his entire family)" I'm with the people who state (can't remember if it was this one or another) that Rhaegar couldn't have predicted the outcome of his elopement. The land had (at that point) been prosperous and at peace for hundreds of years, under the reign of Targaryens some of whom were mad, some whom were evil and some whom were good and kind. Point being that there was no reason to expect the war.

That being said leaving your wife and children for another is a hard thing to reconcile with a 'good' person. But then GRRM doesn't write about 'good' people. He writes about people, so I don't know about Rhaegar, can't make up my mind.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

No one mentions anything that happened between Harrenhal and Lyanna's "kidnapping." I guess nothing happened between those two events, because we hear nothing about it.

I think it would have changed the outcome if anyone had known, you know, where she was, or what she was doing there.

Evidence? We've gone over this already, I think, yet you still claim it's a fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna never contacted Rickard or otherwise let him know of their intentions with each other.

I was talking about Ned. She didn't communicate with Ned.

My god, you're right, I can't believe Rhaegar didn't take his lessons from Macbeth and Oedipus Rex. How could he have been so blind to the themes surrounding prophecies as found in other works that don't exist in his own world?

Wow, that's a pretty incredibly inane response to me pointing to a common trope in literature, which Martin may have been employing here. I said nothing about Rhaegar knowing about them, which I'd hope you'd realize, but I guess not, in your flailing about to deny the obvious.

Oh, and Dany never tried to avoid any prophecy, certainly not the way Macbeth and Oedipus' father did. She fulfilled the prophecy by trying to fulfill it, though she didn't know the prophecy existed at the time.

Yes, indeed, living your life to fulfill or avoid prophesy leads to death and destruction. Summerhall would have been a good example, Dany suffered from it too, and I'm sure in Westerosi literature and folklore there were examples as well. Rhaegar thought he was different, but that's pretty foolish.

And yet, he was right in the end.

Wait, did the series end? It's over and no one told me? Rhaegar has been vindicated? Oh yeah, that's just you making shit up again that hasn't actually happened.

Well, seeing as how he goes to Summerhall alone, it's pretty clear that if he wants to sleep there he's going to have to do it alone. I don't think this counts as sleep trouble, which for the purposes of this discussion means sleeping too much or too little. We have no indication of how he slept.

Incorrect. The sleep troubles can be insomnia or hypersomnia, or a disturbance in sleep patterns like waking up too early or frequently. We can't know this for sure but it is certainly possible. It's as possible as Lyanna talking to Rickard before he died.

As for as we know, "kidnapping" Lyanna was the only reckless thing Rhaegar ever did. One example of recklessness does not equate to a pattern of recklessness.

I would say the abduction was a series of reckless acts: taking Lyanna, allowing his wife and kids to stay with his father, not returning Lyanna, etc.

You said in one of your previous posts above:

"E. No manic episodes"

The reason the list says that is so that you can call it dysthmia and not bipolar. IF he also had a manic episode, then it would be the same symptoms + manic episode = bipolar disorder.

I don't think him being an arrogant selfish prince or him being depressed are the are the only two options.

Of course not. You think he's practically perfect in every way, like Mary Poppins, so you can't admit that he was motivated by arrogance and selfishness, or mentally ill. He was HEROICALLY sacrificing Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, not to mention Lyanna and himself, plus everyone else who died in Westeros, to SAVE THE WORLD ZOMG!!!11!!! Which makes him a misunderstood hero who did something rash, but totally excusable despite the carnage.

There you go, throwing around the "perfect" moniker again, as if that's what I'm arguing. I've accepted your position that you don't hate Rhaegar, could you please accept my position that I don't consider him to be perfect? It just seems like it's easier for you to debate the position that he's perfect, and you're therefore ignoring what I'm actually arguing.

He was almost perfect except maybe a little selfish. So you admit a micrometer of fault, which allows you to then rebut every single aspersion cast on his character, and when people say, "You think he's perfect!" you say, "Oh no, I think he was a teeny weeny little bit naughty when he heroically stole someone else's fiancee and daughter without permission to fulfill some prophesy to save every human on the planet! He did what he thought was right, it didn't work out, but his heart was in the right place..." Which really seems like not acknowledging any flaw at all, you know?

[iamthedave]

All of the moral questioning comes down to the following: Why now?

Why did Rhaegar HAVE to spirit Lyanna away in the manner he did?

And it's an unanswerable question. All of these complex and deeply flawed bits of argumentation that are based on - let's be honest - hearsay and making a lot out of very little will be dealt with when we find out why he decided it was a great idea to take Lyanna off, breaking a marriage contract and hiding her while conceiving a child instead of going about it through more direct means.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

All of the moral questioning comes down to the following: Why now?

Why did Rhaegar HAVE to spirit Lyanna away in the manner he did?

And it's an unanswerable question. All of these complex and deeply flawed bits of argumentation that are based on - let's be honest - hearsay and making a lot out of very little will be dealt with when we find out why he decided it was a great idea to take Lyanna off, breaking a marriage contract and hiding her while conceiving a child instead of going about it through more direct means.

I would speculate that her marriage was imminent, though Brandon's was going to come first, so you'd think there would be a least a year, right? And if she were about to be married when she was stolen, it would have been mentioned by Robert at least. Perhaps the prophesy indicated that a certain time was the right time to conceive this prince?

I guess my feeling is that no explanation is going to be 100% satifactory to everyone no matter how clearly it is spelled out. Even if he was following a prophesy to the letter and is proven to be 100% correct in his reading of it and its importance, I still think it was a reckless act and could have been handled better. It also seems like one of those self-fulfilling prophesies, because if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, it seems as if a lot of how he's going to fulfill the prophesy requires a whole lot of horrendous destruction to happen to put Jon where he is. Ultimately, I doubt it will be knowable if Rhaegar was right in what he did or how he did it, as the outcome is too complex to be a complete vindication of his methods.

Also, I will say that it *is* heroic to do something crazy and radical to save the world. That doesn't mean the person who did it is not also a bit insane, and is not also being selfish and destructive.

[Dragonfish]

I think it would have changed the outcome if anyone had known, you know, where she was, or what she was doing there.

Who said anything about knowing where she was? Are you even able to keep track of what we're arguing about here?

Wow, that's a pretty incredibly inane response to me pointing to a common trope in literature, which Martin may have been employing here. I said nothing about Rhaegar knowing about them, which I'd hope you'd realize, but I guess not, in your flailing about to deny the obvious.

This entire argument is about Rhaegar's character, and Rhaegar's choices. I don't see the point of bringing in themes from other works that he wouldn't have known about. Especially when what happens in those other works never happens in this story. Seriously, can you think of anyone in ASoIaF who brings about their own downfall by trying to avoid a prophecy? So far the only person who comes close to this is Cersei, but her downfall isn't finished yet so we can't know for sure whether or not this will be played straight or subverted. Furthermore, no one in Macbeth and Oedipus Rex brings about their own downfall by trying to fulfill prophecy. But for some reason you cite the "themes" in these stories, because those themes vaguely tell us that "prophecies are bad", even though the manner in which people actually bring about their own doom in these stories has nothing to do with how people bring about their own doom in this story. It certainly has nothing to do with how Rhaegar brought about his own doom. So really, the only inane thing about this argument is your sophomoric comparison between this work and other great works of literature.

Wait, did the series end? It's over and no one told me? Rhaegar has been vindicated? Oh yeah, that's just you making shit up again that hasn't actually happened.

We know the Others are real. What else does the prophecy concern if not the war against the Others? Do you think Rhaegar was afraid of the Summer Islanders invading?

Furthermore, if Jon is one of the heads of the dragon, as almost everyone on this board believes, then that does mean Rhaegar was right, at least in part. Do you not think Jon was one of the heads of the dragon? It's ok if you don't, but if you do then you have no business berating me for "making shit up."

Incorrect. The sleep troubles can be insomnia or hypersomnia, or a disturbance in sleep patterns like waking up too early or frequently.

Ok...and this changes my argument...how? Whether its insomnia, hypersomnia, or disturbance in sleep patterns, we have literally no evidence that Rhaegar had any of this.

We can't know this for sure but it is certainly possible. It's as possible as Lyanna talking to Rickard before he died.

The difference is that I'm not claiming that Lyanna certainly told Rickard anything, whereas you are claiming that Rhaegar is certainly depressed. It seems to me that you've caught a couple symptoms, assumed he's probably depressed, then worked backwards from this conclusion and guessed that he probably had more symptoms. Not exactly the best way to argue.

Of course not. You think he's practically perfect in every way, like Mary Poppins, so you can't admit that he was motivated by arrogance and selfishness, or mentally ill. He was HEROICALLY sacrificing Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, not to mention Lyanna and himself, plus everyone else who died in Westeros, to SAVE THE WORLD ZOMG!!!11!!! Which makes him a misunderstood hero who did something rash, but totally excusable despite the carnage.

Or, like Jon AS said above, he could be a generally good person who nonetheless made a big mistake with dire consequences. Gosh, it's almost like there are more than two options here!

He was almost perfect except maybe a little selfish. So you admit a micrometer of fault, which allows you to then rebut every single aspersion cast on his character, and when people say, "You think he's perfect!" you say, "Oh no, I think he was a teeny weeny little bit naughty when he heroically stole someone else's fiancee and daughter without permission to fulfill some prophesy to save every human on the planet! He did what he thought was right, it didn't work out, but his heart was in the right place..." Which really seems like not acknowledging any flaw at all, you know?

Or maybe it's an accurate description of his character, you know?

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Who said anything about knowing where she was? Are you even able to keep track of what we're arguing about here?

Snippy snippy snippy. I said if she had communicated where she was or what she was doing, that would have changed the outcome. Is that hard to grasp?

This entire argument is about Rhaegar's character, and Rhaegar's choices. I don't see the point of bringing in themes from other works that he wouldn't have known about.

WOW. You are not following what I am saying. I'm saying that the Martin, you know, the author, being well aware of common tropes in literature, would likely have had such works as Oepidus and Macbeth in mind, as it almost a cliche that chase prophesy (either fulfillment or avoidance) generally leads to the doom of the chaser. It seems a given to me that prophesy is an untrustworth game bound to trip you up. What part of that do you actually disagree with? Do you honestly think Martin wrote Rhaegar to be unscathed by prophesy? Clearly not. He brought about his own doom and the doom of his family... by trying to avert the doom of his family. Even if he ultimately proves correct about Jon, he still caused many members of his family to suffer and die horribly, something he openly feared and dreaded. Hence, the double edged sword of prophesy, as illustrated in the classics.

Seriously, can you think of anyone in ASoIaF who brings about their own downfall by trying to avoid a prophecy?

Catch me when the story is over: we don't know for sure who is going to suffer downfall, ultimately. Seems like Cersei may have in alienating Tyrion, assuming he is the valonqar who is going to choke her.

Furthermore, no one in Macbeth and Oedipus Rex brings about their own downfall by trying to fulfill prophecy.

Macbeth does, bigtime. He assumed himself invulnerable due to prophesy and he misinterpreted it in a self-serving way. Also, he fulfilled the prophesy that he would be the Thane of Cawdor, then King, which he brings about by killing Duncan, so yes, he did bring about his own downfall by chasing prophesy. Brush up on the bard, there, bud.

You can apologize for calling my comparisons sophomoric any time.

We know the Others are real. What else does the prophecy concern if not the war against the Others? Do you think Rhaegar was afraid of the Summer Islanders invading?

Sigh... we don't know that conceiving Jon is going to be what saves Westeros from the Others. Lots of people think he dead now (not me, though). I will add, though, that Rhaegar's biggest problem is that he assumes that fulfilling the prophesy was the only way to prevent the Others from taking over. Maybe, I don't know, two destructive wars in 20 years, right before a very long winter, preventing anyone from preparing or supporting the Nights Watch, would have helped. Maybe it would have even been enough. Seems like his actions set off a sequence of events that REQUIRED a savior because all the institutional structures that could have saved the realm had been destroyed. Ironic, isn't it? And very in keeping with the dark world Martin has created.

Furthermore, if Jon is one of the heads of the dragon, as almost everyone on this board believes, then that does mean Rhaegar was right, at least in part. Do you not think Jon was one of the heads of the dragon? It's ok if you don't, but if you do then you have no business berating me for "making shit up."

I think that it doesn't necessarily mean that Rhaegar didn't totally fuck up the world in chasing prophesy. By touching off the war that caused the destruction of the social, political, and economic infrastructure of a united Westeros, he made Jon necessary. It's a terribly circular cause and effect and is exactly the sort of paradox that prophesy creates in many works.

The difference is that I'm not claiming that Lyanna certainly told Rickard anything, whereas you are claiming that Rhaegar is certainly depressed. It seems to me that you've caught a couple symptoms, assumed he's probably depressed, then worked backwards from this conclusion and guessed that he probably had more symptoms. Not exactly the best way to argue.

It doesn't matter, actually. He has enough symptoms even without the sleep issues.

Or, like Jon AS said above, he could be a generally good person who nonetheless made a big mistake with dire consequences. Gosh, it's almost like there are more than two options here!

Being mentally ill does preclude being a good person. I never said he wasn't a good person. I did say he was a screwed up person, and I think the reality of him was probably not as romantic as some folks paint him.

[Dragonfish]

Snippy snippy snippy.

Yes, because you've been the paragon of non-snippiness in this thread.

I said if she had communicated where she was or what she was doing, that would have changed the outcome. Is that hard to grasp?

This part of our argument began when you said, "There were many other ways to go about this than the one chosen." I asked you how you knew he didn't, you said we had no evidence for it, I said we didn't have evidence that anything happened between Harrenhal and the war. Then you brought up something about Lyanna communicating where she was, which none of us were even talking about until now. See what I mean? I never once suggested that Lyanna communicated where she was. That was a strawman that you brought up out of nowhere. Is that hard to grasp?

WOW. You are not following what I am saying. I'm saying that the Martin, you know, the author, being well aware of common tropes in literature, would likely have had such works as Oepidus and Macbeth in mind, as it almost a cliche that chase prophesy (either fulfillment or avoidance) generally leads to the doom of the chaser.

And I'm saying that this doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread. We are talking about Rhaegar's character and his decision-making capabilities. We know it's foolish to chase prophecies because we are aware of these tropes surrounding prophecies. The same tropes do not exist in Rhaegar's world. I guess I'm just more forgiving of his attempts to fulfill the prophecy because of this fact.

It seems a given to me that prophesy is an untrustworth game bound to trip you up. What part of that do you actually disagree with? Do you honestly think Martin wrote Rhaegar to be unscathed by prophesy? Clearly not. He brought about his own doom and the doom of his family... by trying to avert the doom of his family. Even if he ultimately proves correct about Jon, he still caused many members of his family to suffer and die horribly, something he openly feared and dreaded. Hence, the double edged sword of prophesy, as illustrated in the classics.

I think you're strategically re-phrasing Rhaegar's intentions. He wasn't trying to avert any prophecy, he was trying to fulfill one. And unlike characters such as MacBeth or Oedipus' father, he seemed to have the good of the realm in mind, and not his own personal safety or self-aggrandizement (though I'm sure you'll contest this). This is what I think sets him apart from those characters, which is why I don't find the comparison to be apt.

I should also point out that prophecy is the sort of thing that Targaryens have first-hand experience with, given that many of their number have had prophetic dreams. Some of those dreams may very well have saved them in the past (many on the board speculate that the daughter of Aenar Targaryen, who had prophetic dreams, saw the Doom coming, and that's why the Targaryens were on Dragonstone when it happened). So it's not like Rhaegar had any real reason to mistrust the prophecy.

Macbeth does, bigtime. He assumed himself invulnerable due to prophesy and he misinterpreted it in a self-serving way. Also, he fulfilled the prophesy that he would be the Thane of Cawdor, then King, which he brings about by killing Duncan, so yes, he did bring about his own downfall by chasing prophesy. Brush up on the bard, there, bud.

MacBeth only indirectly brings about his own downfall by becoming king (and incidentally, doesn't this example show that prophecy can be fulfilled by trying to fulfill it?). He brings about his own downfall when he kills Macduff's family, after being told by the witches to beware him. A bit similar to what Cersei does to Tyrion.

You can apologize for calling my comparisons sophomoric any time.

I will, as soon as you apologize for calling me obtuse.

Sigh... we don't know that conceiving Jon is going to be what saves Westeros from the Others. Lots of people think he dead now (not me, though). I will add, though, that Rhaegar's biggest problem is that he assumes that fulfilling the prophesy was the only way to prevent the Others from taking over. Maybe, I don't know, two destructive wars in 20 years, right before a very long winter, preventing anyone from preparing or supporting the Nights Watch, would have helped. Maybe it would have even been enough. Seems like his actions set off a sequence of events that REQUIRED a savior because all the institutional structures that could have saved the realm had been destroyed. Ironic, isn't it? And very in keeping with the dark world Martin has created.

Hmmm...perhaps. But it seems that dragons and dragon-riders are somehow required to defeat the Others, which may not have come about had Rhaegar not acted the way he did.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Yes, because you've been the paragon of non-snippiness in this thread.

It should probably really stop, though.

This part of our argument began when you said, "There were many other ways to go about this than the one chosen." I asked you how you knew he didn't, you said we had no evidence for it, I said we didn't have evidence that anything happened between Harrenhal and the war. Then you brought up something about Lyanna communicating where she was, which none of us were even talking about until now. See what I mean? I never once suggested that Lyanna communicated where she was. That was a strawman that you brought up out of nowhere. Is that hard to grasp?

You are misusing the term straw man. I am saying that yes, we don't know what happened, but we can surmise that at least Ned and Robert had no idea where she was or what was going on, so it's not crazy to assume she didn't communicate with anyone. The way they could have gone about it differently is by being more open with everyone about what they were doing, esp. Lyanna. If she had declared her consent and love for Rhaegar, maybe things would have gone differently. Do you get what I'm saying now?

And I'm saying that this doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread. We are talking about Rhaegar's character and his decision-making capabilities. We know it's foolish to chase prophecies because we are aware of these tropes surrounding prophecies. The same tropes do not exist in Rhaegar's world. I guess I'm just more forgiving of his attempts to fulfill the prophecy because of this fact.

It DOES matter if you are looking at this from the perspective of a reader of a literary work and not a character in a story... which is what I thought we were doing here. As a reader, when I look at Rhaegar's choices, I see a character who is, like so many tragic heroes, a basically good person who may also be very screwed up, depressed, ambitious, what have you, chasing a prophesy. It just doesn't work out the way anyone plans. Now, you're saying, how could Rhaegar know that? I dunno, common sense? That being with Lyanna was going to have a very high price tag, and his certainty that it was worth it, and that he was going about it correctly, reflects arrogance and recklessness. His goal may have been 100% noble and wonderful, but the execution was deeply flawed.

I think you're strategically re-phrasing Rhaegar's intentions. He wasn't trying to avert any prophecy, he was trying to fulfill one.

And what was that prophesy, exactly? He doesn't seem to have a great idea of it, as he at first thinks it's him, then he thinks the dragon has three heads... Dany thinks that he assumed Aegon would be a daughter.... I mean, this is a very tenuous grasp he has on what this prophesy means. Aemon interprets it differently from how Rhaegar did, too. So honestly, it seems like a whole lot of death and destruction over a poorly understood text.

And unlike characters such as MacBeth or Oedipus' father, he seemed to have the good of the realm in mind, and not his own personal safety or self-aggrandizement (though I'm sure you'll contest this). This is what I think sets him apart from those characters, which is why I don't find the comparison to be apt.

Why would I contest it? It seems true. I am not sure it matters in the end, as the result is a lot of suffering for probably hundreds of thousands of people. Two wars? Massive carnage. The realm is totally unprepared for winter now. That alone is going to kill a lot of people in the future, unless the cycle of seasons is changed by the fulfillment of the prophesy.

I should also point out that prophecy is the sort of thing that Targaryens have first-hand experience with, given that many of their number have had prophetic dreams. Some of those dreams may very well have saved them in the past (many on the board speculate that the daughter of Aenar Targaryen, who had prophetic dreams, saw the Doom coming, and that's why the Targaryens were on Dragonstone when it happened). So it's not like Rhaegar had any real reason to mistrust the prophecy.

Except the fact that HE GOT IT WRONG SEVERAL TIMES??? And this version that he settled on? It required him to do something really dangerous and crazy. What would make him take that risk after being wrong? I'm going to go with arrogance and a bit of insanity.

MacBeth only indirectly brings about his own downfall by becoming king (and incidentally, doesn't this example show that prophecy can be fulfilled by trying to fulfill it?). He brings about his own downfall when he kills Macduff's family, after being told by the witches to beware him. A bit similar to what Cersei does to Tyrion.

You might fulfill the prophesy and have it be ashes in your mouth as it destroys everything you wanted to preserve in the first place. Sound familiar?

I will, as soon as you apologize for calling me obtuse.

I said you were being obtuse, not that you as a person were obtuse. I'm sorry if it hurt your feelings.

Hmmm...perhaps. But it seems that dragons and dragon-riders are somehow required to defeat the Others, which may not have come about had Rhaegar not acted the way he did.

May not. May have, though. Unknowable, and not a chance I'd take, esp. considering the price.

[Dragonfish]

You are misusing the term straw man.

No I'm not. You were rebutting an argument that wasn't mine. You were rebutting a strawman.

And just so you know, when I said "how do you know he didn't go down other avenues", I was talking about whether or not Rhaegar exhausted other options before running off with Lyanna. But it seems that you think we're talking about the manner in which they went about running off together, and not the other options they may have tried before running off together.

I am saying that yes, we don't know what happened, but we can surmise that at least Ned and Robert had no idea where she was or what was going on, so it's not crazy to assume she didn't communicate with anyone.

Ned and Robert probably weren't contacted, but that doesn't mean we can assume that Ned or Rickard weren't told at some point before the war. At the very least, I think Ned may have surmised Lyanna's feelings. They were very close, after all.

The way they could have gone about it differently is by being more open with everyone about what they were doing, esp. Lyanna. If she had declared her consent and love for Rhaegar, maybe things would have gone differently. Do you get what I'm saying now?

Well, what we're talking about is the idea that they would have told them where they were. I never said that they did or would have done this, yet you were trying to rebut the idea that they did.

It DOES matter if you are looking at this from the perspective of a reader of a literary work and not a character in a story... which is what I thought we were doing here.

I have said throughout this thread that people are using their own knowledge of things that Rhaegar didn't know (i.e. hindsight, prophecy as treated in other works, etc.) to judge him for his actions. I, however, think you should judge a person based on how they acted on they information they had at their disposal. This is why I'm skeptical of your comparison to how prophecy is treated in other works.

And what was that prophesy, exactly?

We don't know what prophecy Rhaegar read.

He doesn't seem to have a great idea of it, as he at first thinks it's him, then he thinks the dragon has three heads... Dany thinks that he assumed Aegon would be a daughter....

No, Rhaegar thinking that he was the PWWP was the only mistake he made, at least that he was aware of. And the fact that he willingly changed his mind on this issue implies that he wasn't obsessed to the point of complete blindness.

Also, Dany never implies that Rhaegar believed Aegon would be a daughter. She does imply, however, that he was naming his children after the three original Targaryen conquerors, and from this we can surmise that he probably expected his third child (perhaps the one he would have with Lyanna) to be a daughter.

Why would I contest it? It seems true.

You've been calling him arrogant and selfish, so I figured you would contest it.

I am not sure it matters in the end, as the result is a lot of suffering for probably hundreds of thousands of people. The realm is totally unprepared for winter now. That alone is going to kill a lot of people, unless the cycle of seasons is changed by the fulfillment of the prophesy.

Wait, now we're blaming him for the War of the Five Kings? Should every bad thing that came after his "kidnapping" of Lyanna be blamed on him?

I said you were being obtuse, not that you as a person were obtuse. I'm sorry if it hurt your feelings.

Well, I don't think there's that big a difference between the two, but at least you're admitting now that it was directed at me and not at my argument.

By the way, that last sentence ("I'm sorry if it hurt your feelings") came across as snippy to me. Was that your intended tone?

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Well, what we're talking about is the idea that they would have told them where they were. I never said that they did or would have done this, yet you were trying to rebut the idea that they did.

I'm not REBUTTING anything. I am just saying, they could have done things differently. I'm saying how. That's it.

I, however, think you should judge a person based on how they acted on they information they had at their disposal. This is why I'm skeptical of your comparison to how prophecy is treated in other works.

I still think he handled the information he had pretty badly. You are unlikely to convince me otherwise.

No, Rhaegar thinking that he was the PWWP was the only mistake he made, at least that he was aware of. And the fact that he willingly changed his mind on this issue implies that he wasn't obsessed to the point of complete blindness.

It doesn't imply that at all. In fact, I'd say it does the opposite. It shows that, despite his inability to correctly glean the meaning of the prophesy with any certainty, he still did something crazy (running off with Lyanna) in the name of prophesy. You are saying he thought he had to do that it save the world, and if the prophesy were really clear, then maybe. But it seems to have been rather easy to get wrong, so the risk he took and price he paid seems to be the result of arrogance and bad judgment.

Also, Dany never implies that Rhaegar believed Aegon would be a daughter. She does imply, however, that he was naming his children after the three original Targaryen conquerors, and from this we can surmise that he probably expected his third child (perhaps the one he would have with Lyanna) to be a daughter.

In which case he was wrong again. Aemon disagreed with his reading of the prophesy as well. You would think if Lyanna was clearly pointed to as the mother of the child, Aemon would have picked up on it. One gets the sense that Rhaegar used the prophesy as a way to justify what he wanted to do anyway, and that is a terribly self-indulgent thing to do.

You've been calling him arrogant and selfish, so I figured you would contest it.

People are more complex than that. Rhaegar was large, he contained multitudes.

Wait, now we're blaming him for the War of the Five Kings? Should every bad thing that came after his "kidnapping" of Lyanna be blamed on him?

The War of the Five Kings is a direct result of Robert's Rebellion just as WWII is a direct result of WWI. Rhaegar dropped the first domino that led to almost 2 decades of catastrophes. I wouldn't say I was blaming him, but he did start the fire.

By the way, that last sentence ("I'm sorry if it hurt your feelings") came across as snippy to me. Was that your intended tone?

NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT. It was sincere. It is never my intention to hurt the feelings of a stranger over a discussion of a work of fiction, so consider it an unconditional apology for any insults, intended or accidental.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Aegon was supposedly one year old at the sack, which would mean Elia was bedridden until the sack basically, while Rhaeghar took off with Lyanna almost immediately after Aegon was born. That seems off. Martin seems to be trying to hint that Elia being too weak to bear a child and survive was part of Rhaeghar's motivation, but that seems to conflict with the timelines. I don't think Martin gave these timelines much thought. He has stated how he hates timelines for this reason, and I don't think he can keep them straight in his own head.

Yes, that’s it exactly. Pretty obviously. It wasn’t something he carefully charted out on a calendar grid, because he’s not that kind of guy. He just has a screenwriter’s background, remember. So he doesn’t want to be held to accuracy in timekeeping. He keeps it fuzzy because it is fuzzy, because he never did the math for himself and now asks us to cut him some slack and for his sake, also not do the math.

If that’s ok with you, that is.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Yes, that’s it exactly. Pretty obviously. It wasn’t something he carefully charted out on a calendar grid, because he’s not that kind of guy. He just has a screenwriter’s background, remember. So he doesn’t want to be held to accuracy in timekeeping. He keeps it fuzzy because it is fuzzy, because he never did the math for himself and now asks us to cut him some slack and for his sake, also not do the math.

If that’s ok with you, that is.

GRRM was on the NPR show On Point with Tom Ashbrook, and he admitted that he doesn't write anything down or keep a compendium. When he has to remember something, he uses a searchable database and just rereads the relevant chapters. He actually said he maybe should have someone to help him figure it all out, but eh, whatever. I wonder if he laughs at us, trying to pin these things down to specific dates and arguing about minutiae that he feels are unimportant.

[iamthedave]

I'd be very surprised if he wasn't taken aback by the level of effort people put in to analyzing ASOIF. It'd be a rare author who writes stories thinking 'people are going to spend YEARS talking about this! *great belly laugh*' Though I have known one or two wannabes who thought in that exact manner.

[Dragonfish]

I'm not REBUTTING anything. I am just saying, they could have done things differently. I'm saying how. That's it.

You said, "I think it would have changed the outcome if anyone had known, you know, where she was, or what she was doing there." You were rebutting the idea that she told people where she was. Only the problem is, I never claimed that Lyanna told people where she was. Now you're saying that you're simply proposing how "they could have done things differently." Fine, but just because you demonstrate how they probably didn't go down one of the possible alternative avenues, doesn't mean you've demonstrated that they didn't go down any of them.

And again, before we got sidetracked, I wasn't talking about how they might have gone about running off together. I was talking about other avenues or options they might have tried before deciding to run off together.

I still think he handled the information he had pretty badly. You are unlikely to convince me otherwise.

I think we've both known for quite a while that we're never going to convince each other of anything in this thread.

It doesn't imply that at all. In fact, I'd say it does the opposite. It shows that, despite his inability to correctly glean the meaning of the prophesy with any certainty, he still did something crazy (running off with Lyanna) in the name of prophesy. You are saying he thought he had to do that it save the world, and if the prophesy were really clear, then maybe. But it seems to have been rather easy to get wrong, so the risk he took and price he paid seems to be the result of arrogance and bad judgment.

If he was truly arrogant and selfish about this whole thing, and obsessed to the point of blindness, then he would have persisted in believing that he was the PWWP, rather than his son.

In which case he was wrong again. Aemon disagreed with his reading of the prophesy as well.

None of which he necessarily knew about at the time. You'll notice I said that Rhaegar only got one thing wrong that he knew of. Of course he ended up getting other things wrong as well, but all of that became apparent after he died, so he never really had a chance to act on it.

People are more complex than that. Rhaegar was large, he contained multitudes.

Ok, but in this very post you said, "One gets the sense that Rhaegar used the prophesy as a way to justify what he wanted to do anyway, and that is a terribly self-indulgent thing to do." That is pretty much directly in conflict with what I was arguing above.

The War of the Five Kings is a direct result of Robert's Rebellion just as WWII is a direct result of WWI. Rhaegar dropped the first domino that led to almost 2 decades of catastrophes. I wouldn't say I was blaming him, but he did start the fire.

I object to the use of the domino metaphor, as it implies that everything that happened after Rhaegar's death was inevitable. WWI need not have led to WWII, had the victors handled the end of the war a different way (e.g. not punishing Germany so much). If someone were to ask me who was responsible for WWII, my first thought would not have been the assassin of Franz Ferdinand.

Yes, Rhaegar's actions were the necessary condition for creating the War of the Five Kings. But his actions were not the sufficient condition (hell, you could even take out "War of the Five Kings" and put in "Robert's Rebellion", and the statement would remain true). There were many other people in the intervening years whose actions were a far more direct catalyst for the war. It just seems odd to tie the whole thing to him.

NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT.

Dude, I was just trying to ascertain your tone. Normally when a person says, "Sorry if I hurt your feelings," they're being condescending. That's the way if came off to me. But I realized that that might not have been your intention, so I asked for a simple clarification. No need to respond in all caps.

It was sincere. It is never my intention to hurt the feelings of a stranger over a discussion of a work of fiction, so consider it an unconditional apology for any insults, intended or accidental.

Very well, then I apologize for calling your comparison sophomoric.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

You said, "I think it would have changed the outcome if anyone had known, you know, where she was, or what she was doing there." You were rebutting the idea that she told people where she was. Only the problem is, I never claimed that Lyanna told people where she was. Now you're saying that you're simply proposing how "they could have done things differently." Fine, but just because you demonstrate how they probably didn't go down one of the possible alternative avenues, doesn't mean you've demonstrated that they didn't go down any of them.

No, I wasn't and I'm kind of getting tired of explaining it. IF they had done ANY explaining of their feelings towards each other to ANYONE in power, I feel like the outcome would be different. It seems, by people's reactions, to indicate a lack of communication. That's my surmise. I could be wrong.

I think we've both known for quite a while that we're never going to convince each other of anything in this thread.

Yet you convinced me about the KG in the Tower of Joy thread, so you know I am not unreasonable nor unable to be convinced or admit that your view is correct. You just haven't done it here. I see a lot of excuse-making and unwillingness to draw reasonable conclusions from available info. I have been flexible, but I haven't seen any interest on your part to re-evaluate your assumptions. But hey, I hate to destroy your rosy view of the hero of the books for you.

If he was truly arrogant and selfish about this whole thing, and obsessed to the point of blindness, then he would have persisted in believing that he was the PWWP, rather than his son.

ASSUMPTION: that I'm saying that his arrogance and selfishness were his motivations for fulfilling prophesy. I'm not, I'm saying that he wanted to fulfill the prophesy 1. because he wanted to save the world, and 2. to alleviate his depression and sense of doom (which is what led to the desperation to do SOMETHING instead of thinking it through more). The way he went about it, stealing away a girl who had a fiancee, leaving his own family... based on a prophesy that he himself poorly undrstood. That's arrogant and selfish IMO.

None of which he necessarily knew about at the time. You'll notice I said that Rhaegar only got one thing wrong that he knew of. Of course he ended up getting other things wrong as well, but all of that became apparent after he died, so he never really had a chance to act on it.

The biggest thing about the prophesy, which is WHO IT IS ABOUT. That's what he got wrong. So obviously it's not very clear about who the child's mother is, or anything like that. He gets it wrong (and we know he may have gotten it wrong again, if Aemon is right). Now, I don't know about you, but I would be unwilling to do anything as horribly rash and possibly destructive as eloping with Lyanna Stark if I had reason to believe I wasn't sure about the prophesy. Consequently, I ask myself, what kind of person WOULD do it anyway? I don't come up with any positive traits. (Not to say he has no positive traits, but none of them were behind this particular decision). Also, his timing was crap. Better to deal with Aerys first, no?

Ok, but in this very post you said, "One gets the sense that Rhaegar used the prophesy as a way to justify what he wanted to do anyway, and that is a terribly self-indulgent thing to do." That is pretty much directly in conflict with what I was arguing above.

A man can be arrogant and selfish and also basically a good person. Or a good person can just flip out and do something really crazy, for love or ambition or out of desperation.

I object to the use of the domino metaphor, as it implies that everything that happened after Rhaegar's death was inevitable. WWI need not have led to WWII, had the victors handled the end of the war a different way (e.g. not punishing Germany so much). If someone were to ask me who was responsible for WWII, my first thought would not have been the assassin of Franz Ferdinand.

It is not knowable if it is was inevitable but! If you are positing a deterministic universe, where prophesy is a prescription that can be filled to achieve a definite outcome, then why is it unreasonable to posit that following a prophesy (in this case, following it correctly, as you seem to believe) leads to an inevitable outcome? You can't have it both ways. Either Rhaegar had to do things the way he did them, with all that entails (and I believe it entails two terrible wars) to beget the savior, or he didn't have to do them that way, and all this could be avoided.

Yes, Rhaegar's actions were the necessary condition for creating the War of the Five Kings. But his actions were not the sufficient condition (hell, you could even take out "War of the Five Kings" and put in "Robert's Rebellion", and the statement would remain true). There were many other people in the intervening years whose actions were a far more direct catalyst for the war. It just seems odd to tie the whole thing to him.

It's not odd at all. It seems odd NOT to tie it all to him. He was the first domino. How much responsibility the first domino should be given is debatable, but had no one knocked it over, the rest would not have fallen. I think, had he waited and deposed Aerys first, he would have been in a much better negotiating position. Or had he said, you know, I really dig Lyanna, but it's too crazy to mess with that, so I won't. Or if he had studied the prophesy further and realized someone else could be the Prince, etc. No, he chose to do what he did, and the ripples spread out across the decades.

Dude, I was just trying to ascertain your tone. Normally when a person says, "Sorry if I hurt your feelings," they're being condescending. That's the way if came off to me. But I realized that that might not have been your intention, so I asked for a simple clarification. No need to respond in all caps.

REVISED: I was not being condescending. I was apologizing. Hope that's enough explanation of this, as I'm not a fan of protracted apologizing on the internet.

Very well, then I apologize for calling your comparison sophomoric.

I'm so glad I was able to earn your grudging apology. I feels really sincere.