[aDwD spoilers] Revisiting Rhaegar

[Dragonfish]

No, I wasn't and I'm kind of getting tired of explaining it. IF they had done ANY explaining of their feelings towards each other to ANYONE in power, I feel like the outcome would be different. It seems, by people's reactions, to indicate a lack of communication. That's my surmise. I could be wrong.

Right, but I was objecting to the your mention of Lyanna telling people where she was. I never argued that she did that.

I have been flexible, but I haven't seen any interest on your part to re-evaluate your assumptions. But hey, I hate to destroy your rosy view of the hero of the books for you.

Excuse me, but didn't you say that the snippiness in this thread probably needed to stop? I feel I've replied with this request, yet you seemed to have ignored it.

Also, his timing was crap. Better to deal with Aerys first, no?

Probably, yes. But he may not have had time. Lyanna may very well have been about to marry Robert soon. It's one possibility.

A man can be arrogant and selfish and also basically a good person. Or a good person can just flip out and do something really crazy, for love or ambition or out of desperation.

Ok, but we're talking about what his primary motivation was for trying to fulfill the prophecy. I said that he had mostly good intentions in mind, and not his own personal safety or self-aggrandizement. I figured you might object to this. You then said you wouldn't object to this, but then went on to say, "One gets the sense that Rhaegar used the prophesy as a way to justify what he wanted to do anyway, and that is a terribly self-indulgent thing to do." Normally a self-indulgent person who uses prophecy to justify what he wanted to do anyway is not considered to have good intentions in mind. So it sort of seems like you are objecting to my characterization of Rhaegar's primary motivation.

If you are positing a deterministic universe, where prophesy is a prescription that can be filled to achieve a definite outcome, then why is it unreasonable to posit that following a prophesy (in this case, following it correctly, as you seem to believe) leads to an inevitable outcome? You can't have it both ways. Either Rhaegar had to do things the way he did them, with all that entails (and I believe it entails two terrible wars) to beget the savior, or he didn't have to do them that way, and all this could be avoided.

I don't think there's ever been a prophecy that predicted the War of the Five Kings. We don't really know if the War of the Five Kings was always "meant" to happen. For all we know, only the essential things (i.e. who AAR will be) are deterministic, while the rest of the details are fluid. There's certainly enough mystery in this book surrounding prophecy, and whether or not prophecy can be subverted, to suggest that it's not a completely deterministic world.

It's not odd at all. It seems odd NOT to tie it all to him. He was the first domino. How much responsibility the first domino should be given is debatable, but had no one knocked it over, the rest would not have fallen.

Ok, but then you could just as easily say that Aegon V knocked over the first domino by trying to awaken a dragon at Summerhall, thereby leading his and his firstborn son's death, thereby allowing Jaehaerys' line to take over, and thus allowing for Aerys to take the throne. Had Aegon not knocked this domino over, we would not have had the War of the Five Kings.

The point being, every event in the books can be traced back to some sort of "domino" without which the event would not have occurred. And every supposed "domino" that led to these events can be traced back to some other "domino" that came before it. I don't think that means that each "domino" should be blamed for the events that happen many "dominoes" down the road (ok, I think I'm starting to overuse the "domino" metaphor). That's why I'm reluctant to really blame Rhaegar for what happened fourteen years after his death, even a little bit.

Wow, really? In your world, when someone says, "I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings," they're being condescending?

Oftentimes, yes. Usually when I hear someone say, "sorry if I hurt your feelings", they're implying that I'm thin-skinned or far too "sensitive" (i.e. girlie). Of course, much of the intended meaning depends on tone and delivery, which is very difficult to discern in writing.

I don't even know what to say to that! Why not just gracefully accept the apology and not make me now explain it. Really uncool.

The sentence honestly came across as condescending to me, but I recognized that that might not have been your intention. On the one hand, I didn't want to "gracefully accept" an apology that was underhanded; on the other hand, I didn't want criticize you for being condescending if that was not what you meant. So I simply asked you to clarify your tone. Why is that uncool? It's very common on a forum such as this to ask someone to clarify their tone. It's considered a courteous thing to do.

I'm so glad I was able to earn your grudging apology. I feels really sincere.

Why are you taking this so negatively? I accepted your apology once I was clear on its tone, and offered my own apology in exchange. That apology was sincere. If you thought it came across as grudging, then perhaps you should have asked me clarify whether or not that was my intention. But honestly, I don't really see where I was being grudging or graceless. Right now it seems like you're the one being graceless.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Excuse me, but didn't you say that the snippiness in this thread probably needed to stop? I feel I've replied with this request, yet you seemed to have ignored it.

I feel like I'm accurately depicting your feelings about this character. You have a rosy view of him that you will defend to the death. You have given no ground and persist in seeing only heroic motivations. It feels like debate with such an inflexible opponent is a waste of time. I have shown myself to be flexible. I also apologized first and only then got a grudging response, after justifying my apology. It's pretty silly, when you think about it. These are fictional characters we're arguing over.

Probably, yes. But he may not have had time. Lyanna may very well have been about to marry Robert soon. It's one possibility.

I find it highly unlikely. Brandon and Catelyn were about to get married. I feel like generally people wait a year or so after their siblings get married. Also, wouldn't Robert have mentioned that their wedding was so close when she was kidnapped?

Ok, but we're talking about what his primary motivation was for trying to fulfill the prophecy. I said that he had mostly good intentions in mind, and not his own personal safety or self-aggrandizement. I figured you might object to this. You then said you wouldn't object to this, but then went on to say, "One gets the sense that Rhaegar used the prophesy as a way to justify what he wanted to do anyway, and that is a terribly self-indulgent thing to do." Normally a self-indulgent person who uses prophecy to justify what he wanted to do anyway is not considered to have good intentions in mind. So it sort of seems like you are objecting to my characterization of Rhaegar's primary motivation.

Nope. His motivations and his means for achieving his goals are two separate things. Many a horrible atrocity is committed in the name of noble goals. It seems like the two dovetailed for him. He wanted another baby, felt he needed one to fulfill the prophesy, and also took a fancy to Lyanna. He used the first to justify taking the second by any means necessary. Thus, the two do not contradict each other. He had a noble goal and he fulfilled in in a self-indulgent way.

I don't think there's ever been a prophecy that predicted the War of the Five Kings. We don't really know if the War of the Five Kings was always "meant" to happen. For all we know, only the essential things (i.e. who AAR will be) are deterministic, while the rest of the details are fluid. There's certainly enough mystery in this book surrounding prophecy, and whether or not prophecy can be subverted, to suggest that it's not a completely deterministic world.

One would hope not, though I wonder if Rhaegar would agree.

Ok, but then you could just as easily say that Aegon V knocked over the first domino by trying to awaken a dragon at Summerhall, thereby leading his and his firstborn son's death, thereby allowing Jaehaerys' line to take over, and thus allowing for Aerys to take the throne. Had Aegon not knocked this domino over, we would not have had the War of the Five Kings.

True, and a good point. I would say Aegon does bear some of the responsibility, which is why we get the Dunk & Egg books.

Oftentimes, yes. Usually when I hear someone say, "sorry if I hurt your feelings", they're implying that I'm thin-skinned or far too "sensitive" (i.e. girlie). Of course, much of the intended meaning depends on tone and delivery, which is very difficult to discern in writing.

This sounds like your own deal here. I wish you could have just taken it in the best way possible, considering that I subsequently offered an unconditional apology, for which I got back, "OK, so here's my apology too, now that you've apologized for every thing you ever said to me." Ouch.

Why are you taking this so negatively? I accepted your apology once I was clear on its tone, and offered my own apology in exchange. That apology was sincere. If you thought it came across as grudging, then perhaps you should have asked me clarify whether or not that was my intention. But honestly, I don't really see where I was being grudging or graceless. Right now it seems like you're the one being graceless.

Because this is getting really ridiculous. Let's just assume from now on that no one intends to insult anyone, that tone is not easy to discern, and assume the best intent? It's a lot easier that way.

[Dragonfish]

I feel like I'm accurately depicting your feelings about this character. You have a rosy view of him that you will defend to the death. You have given no ground and persist in seeing only heroic motivations. It feels like debate with such an inflexible opponent is a waste of time. I have shown myself to be flexible. I also apologized first and only then got a grudging response, after justifying my apology. It's pretty silly, when you think about it. These are fictional characters we're arguing over.

My position is that Rhaegar was an overall good person who nonetheless made a big mistake with terrible unintended consequences. I don't see why that's a rosy view. That describes a lot of characters in this story.

I find it highly unlikely. Brandon and Catelyn were about to get married. I feel like generally people wait a year or so after their siblings get married. Also, wouldn't Robert have mentioned that their wedding was so close when she was kidnapped?

One possibility that I have no evidence for but I'm going to say it anyway: Rickard picked up on Rhaegar's intentions (and perhaps Lyanna's as well) and decided it was best to marry Lyanna off quickly. So he attempts to have her taken to the Vale in secret (or rather, without much fanfare) where she can marry Robert and hopefully put an end to Rhaegar's plans. Rhaegar gets wind of this (perhaps through Lyanna), realizes he has no time left, then rushes off to rescue her.

Nope. His motivations and his means for achieving his goals are two separate things. Many a horrible atrocity is committed in the name of noble goals. It seems like the two dovetailed for him. He wanted another baby, felt he needed one to fulfill the prophesy, and also took a fancy to Lyanna. He used the first to justify taking the second by any means necessary. Thus, the two do not contradict each other. He had a noble goal and he fulfilled in in a self-indulgent way.

Well, the way you originally formulated it, you made it sound as if fulfilling the prophecy was merely a pretext for his own selfish desires. But as you've currently formulated it, I can accept there was no contradiction.

This sounds like your own deal here. I wish you could have just taken it in the best way possible, considering that I subsequently offered an unconditional apology, for which I got back, "OK, so here's my apology too, now that you've apologized for every thing you ever said to me." Ouch.

Well, your apology did not come off as unconditional, in part because you chose to precede it with an equivocation about how you were only saying I was "being" obtuse, and not that I as a person was obtuse. Whereas my apology had no equivocation whatsoever. Seriously, where in the following sentence, "Very well, then I apologize for calling your comparison sophomoric", do you see any sort of grudgingness or equivocation?

Because this is getting really ridiculous. Let's just assume from now on that no one intends to insult anyone, that tone is not easy to discern, and assume the best intent? It's a lot easier that way.

It's actually pretty difficult when you continue to insinuate that my apology was insincere.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

My position is that Rhaegar was an overall good person who nonetheless made a big mistake with terrible unintended consequences. I don't see why that's a rosy view. That describes a lot of characters in this story.

I feel like he could have known better and should have, and it makes me aggravated with his character. My internal image of him is as being, as the kids today say, very emo. Grrr. I also generally take a jaundiced view of tragic romances AND prophesy chasers. So we are on opposite ends of this thing.

[One possibility that I have no evidence for but I'm going to say it anyway: Rickard picked up on Rhaegar's intentions (and perhaps Lyanna's as well) and decided it was best to marry Lyanna off quickly. So he attempts to have her taken to the Vale in secret (or rather, without much fanfare) where she can marry Robert and hopefully put an end to Rhaegar's plans. Rhaegar gets wind of this (perhaps through Lyanna), realizes he has no time left, then rushes off to rescue her.

And see, this here is exactly why I say you have a rosy view. You do a whole lot of work constructing these things to make sense of and rationalize what he did, rather than going with the more obvious reason: he wanted to do it. He justified that desire with prophesy, which he also believed in and wanted to fulfill, but he also just WANTED Lyanan, so he did it. That's it.

Now, factually, I just doubt no one, esp. Robert, wouldn't have mentioned this. "And we were about to be married!" I can't imagine that would have been left off his litany of Rhaegar's evils.

Well, the way you originally formulated it, you made it sound as if fulfilling the prophecy was merely a pretext for his own selfish desires. But as you've currently formulated it, I can accept there was no contradiction.

Good. I'm glad I was able to finally explain something effectively enough to get an agreement from you! NOTE: this is not sarcasm.

Well, your apology did not come off as unconditional, in part because you chose to precede it with an equivocation about how you were only saying I was "being" obtuse, and not that I as a person was obtuse. Whereas my apology had no equivocation whatsoever. Seriously, where in the following sentence, "Very well, then I apologize for calling your comparison sophomoric", do you see any sort of grudgingness or equivocation?

No, dude, scroll back to where I actually flat out said I was unconditionally apologizing for any insult, intended or accidental. I wish that could have been enough, or maybe could have engendered a similarly blanket apology, but I only got, "Very well then, sorry I said you were sophomoric." I hope you can see how that might seem a bit one-sided in the apology magnitude department, as I don't think I was any more insulting or condescending than you are.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

DOUBLE POST due to SQL error. My apologies.

[Dragonfish]

And see, this here is exactly why I say you have a rosy view. You do a whole lot of work constructing these things to make sense of and rationalize what he did, rather than going with the more obvious reason: he wanted to do it. He justified that desire with prophesy, which he also believed in and wanted to fulfill, but he also just WANTED Lyanan, so he did it. That's it.

I said it was merely a possibility, and admitted there was no evidence for it, in what I though was a somewhat comical way (notice that the sentence that begins that paragraph is a run-on sentence).

In any event, it strikes me as odd that Rhaegar would just up and decide to run off with Lyanna, and not simply for character reasons. Normally characters don't just up and decide to do something in Martin's work. Usually there's some sort of catalyst that forces people's decisions (see: Catelyn freeing Jaime after learning of the "deaths" of her children, Robb sleeping with Jeyne after learning the same, Jaime attacking Eddard after Tyrion was taken by Catelyn, Jaime rescuing Brienne after dreaming of her, etc.).

No, dude, scroll back to where I actually flat out said I was unconditionally apologizing for any insult, intended or accidental.

That was your second attempt at apology. In your first attempt, you preceded your apology with an equivocation, and the apoloogy itself came across as condescending to me at first. Then when I asked you to clarify your tone, which is actually the courteous thing to do on a forum such as this, you got snippy with me, and then continued to be snippy with me even as I was explaining myself in what I thought was a fairly courteous tone. Do you see why I would be a little miffed at this?

I wish that could have been enough, or maybe could have engendered a similarly blanket apology, but I only got, "Very well then, sorry I said you were sophomoric." I hope you can see how that might seem a bit one-sided in the apology magnitude department, as I don't think I was any more insulting or condescending than you are.

Well, I'd told you earlier I would apologize once you apologized for the "obtuse" remark. Once you explained your previous apology had been sincere, I thought it was enough to simply offer my own apology. I didn't realize I needed to put in all of the adjectives you used.

But in any event, let me state right now that I absolutely, unequivocally, unconditionally apologize for calling your comparison sophomoric. (My tone here is sincere).

[Dragonfish]

DOUBLE POST due to SQL error. My apologies.

This apology came across as condescending to me. Was that your intended tone?

[Geddus]

Wow, this thread has gotten big... I find very difficult to put Rhaegar in perspective because in my opinion there are still too many things we don't know about what happened, almost anything is possible and every action could have another meaning that we think.

Some opinions: I read many people putting the blame on Brandon Stark, which I find really weird. He seems to have suddenly become a scumbag because of what Lady Dustin, who is about as reliable as Robert is about Rhaegar, says about him. I mean, a scorned woman. Really?

Anyway, Brandon went to KL, but what he really did there is unknown because that throwaway line by Jaime doesn't really explain anything: maybe he really did immediately shout for Rhaegar to come out and die, maybe he calmly asked and was mocked by Aerys, or who knows what else. Anything is still possible.

I also think there has to be more to Lyanna's "abduction": Rhaegar knew he would have insulted two great houses, he knew said great houses would react in some way, he knew his father was if not crazy, at least extremely paranoid. Yet he did what he did and disappeared for 6 months. That would make him very irresponsible and maybe even a little crazy but all sources basically say the exact opposite. It doesn't add up.

I believe Lyanna went willingly, but I also believe it's irrelevant: she was not free to do so, and while she can be excused because of her age, the same thing doesn't apply to Rhaegar. He had to know it would have been taken as an abduction, especially if it happened at swordpoint. Another weird thing.

And why the hell did Lyanna didn't communicate with anyone the whole time? We don't know for sure, but maybe Ned would have done things differently if he knew his sister was where she wanted to be. Why not try and tell him something? It couldn't hurt... I think it would have been worth a try, at least.

Since I've seen it discussed, even Dorne reacted badly to Rhaegar's actions: I think someone said somewhere (can't remember if it's in the books or it was Martin himself) that the dornish hesitated to send their troops because of Rhaegar's treatment of Elia, so yes, they took it as an insult.

That's also why Aerys had to send Lewyn Martell to "convince" them and why he distrusted the dornish and kept Elia and her children in KL as hostages.

In any case, my opinion is that Rhaegar was irresponsible, Brandon was reckless but the war is all and only Aerys' fault. Trying to shift the blame on anyone else just seems unreasonable to me.

[Dragonfish]

And why the hell did Lyanna didn't communicate with anyone the whole time? We don't know for sure, but maybe Ned would have done things differently if he knew his sister was where she wanted to be. Why not try and tell him something? It couldn't hurt... I think it would have been worth a try, at least.

One thing I mentioned before is that there basically was no way for Lyanna to reliably communicate with Ned, once the war began. Any letter she sent would probably have been considered fake (as Sansa's letter in AGoT was), and there was no way she was going to be able to travel across a warzone (while being pregnant, to boot) in order to get to Ned. Not to mention that Ned was probably in the field more often than not, and therefore couldn't really be contacted very easily.

Since I've seen it discussed, even Dorne reacted badly to Rhaegar's actions: I think someone said somewhere (can't remember if it's in the books or it was Martin himself) that the dornish hesitated to send their troops because of Rhaegar's treatment of Elia, so yes, they took it as an insult.

Yes, George said in a SSM that the Dornish were not appreciative of Rhaegar's treatment of Elia.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

In any event, it strikes me as odd that Rhaegar would just up and decide to run off with Lyanna, and not simply for character reasons. Normally characters don't just up and decide to do something in Martin's work. Usually there's some sort of catalyst that forces people's decisions (see: Catelyn freeing Jaime after learning of the "deaths" of her children, Robb sleeping with Jeyne after learning the same, Jaime attacking Eddard after Tyrion was taken by Catelyn, Jaime rescuing Brienne after dreaming of her, etc.).

Yeah, we don't have enough info to know what was the impetus for him to do it at that moment, and without other info, it seems like he did it on impulse. I agree that it seems out of character, but it's my contention that, in these books, people DO do things that are out of character. Ned has the affair with Ashara (I know you don't believe that, but...), Jon sleeps with Ygritte, Robb with Jeyne... people to crazy, destructive things for love. Why not Rhaegar?

That was your second attempt at apology. In your first attempt, you preceded your apology with an equivocation, and the apoloogy itself came across as condescending to me at first.

And then, in post #335, I said, "NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT. It was sincere. It is never my intention to hurt the feelings of a stranger over a discussion of a work of fiction, so consider it an unconditional apology for any insults, intended or accidental." So that, for me, was a pretty straightforward apology, and I wish we could have just dropped it there.

This apology came across as condescending to me. Was that your intended tone?

:owned:

[GreenEyesDave]

Yo Tyrosh I don't think Ned had and affair with Ashara, from what I remember him and Ashara hooked up during Harrenhal when Brandon was still to be married to Catelyn, remember. SO technically he didn't cheat. I know I got discussing this with.......

Someone on here, at any rate I had another thought, do you think the reason Lyanna dissapeared was to go and see the child in the Vale for herself and then go to Storms End to talk with Robert about it ?

Or possible maybe she went to give Robert a ultimatum in that if he truly loved her the way he claimed that he would no longer go looking for nookie outside of her. I think Lyanna acutally DID love Robert but knew or at least had a strong feeling that Robert would never keep to just her unless she told him how she felt about all this other stuff. Perhaps when her and Ned were talking and she said "love is sweet dear Ned, but it can't change a man's nature" she might have been preparing to go confront Robert about the girl herself and to see the child. Going from the Winterfell ain't exactly a short trip and the Vale to Storm's End ain't either. According to the map Summerhall and Storm's End aren't that far from each other, its very possible that her and Rhaegar had seen each other around her and started to talk hence the supposed "rumor" that Rhaegar had stolen Lyanna. I suspect that Lyanna simply wanted to say high to friend and someone took the wrong idea.

[Dragonfish]

Yeah, we don't have enough info to know what was the impetus for him to do it at that moment, and without other info, it seems like he did it on impulse. I agree that it seems out of character, but it's my contention that, in these books, people DO do things that are out of character. Ned has the affair with Ashara (I know you don't believe that, but...), Jon sleeps with Ygritte, Robb with Jeyne... people to crazy, destructive things for love. Why not Rhaegar?

Yes, "the things we do for love" is a common theme in these books, and I think it applies to Rhaegar and Lyanna's situation. However, that still doesn't change the fact that there's usually some sort of impetus for people to act on that love. Jon sleeps with Ygritte because he's been pushed into it by circumstances (his orders, his need to convince the wildlings he's one of them, etc.), and Robb is pushed into Jeyne's arms after he finds out about the deaths of his brothers. Without those extenuating circumstances, it's doubtful Jon and Robb would have done what they did. As for Ned, while he may have slept with Ashara, we know even less about their relationship than we do about Rhaegar and Lyanna's, so we can't really conclude whether there was any impetus for their sleeping together.

And then, in post #335, I said, "NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT. It was sincere. It is never my intention to hurt the feelings of a stranger over a discussion of a work of fiction, so consider it an unconditional apology for any insults, intended or accidental." So that, for me, was a pretty straightforward apology, and I wish we could have just dropped it there.

Well, then let's just end it here.

[corbon]

Some opinions: I read many people putting the blame on Brandon Stark, which I find really weird. He seems to have suddenly become a scumbag because of what Lady Dustin, who is about as reliable as Robert is about Rhaegar, says about him. I mean, a scorned woman. Really?

Not a scumbag. We already knew he was wild and rash (wild wolf, ride to KL to declare treason etc). What Lady Dustin tells us is that effectively Brandon didn't have the same 'honour' code that Ned does and that he was willing to 'dishonour' a young noblewoman and then dump her - for whatever reason. This merely puts him on a par with most young men and is only important in the context of Ashara Dayne and Harrenhal.

And really, scorned woman or no, there isn't any reason to doubt the basic truth behind Lady Dustin's story. She might be lying, but there really doesn't seem any reasonable reason for such an elaborate story, and it does fit 'naturally' with the brash, handsome, everything-going-for-him heir to Winterfell. We might as well take it at face value until we see at least something contradictory.

Anyway, Brandon went to KL, but what he really did there is unknown because that throwaway line by Jaime doesn't really explain anything: maybe he really did immediately shout for Rhaegar to come out and die, maybe he calmly asked and was mocked by Aerys, or who knows what else. Anything is still possible.

Sure, anything is possible.

But again, we might as well take what we are told at more or less face value here. Jaime was a witness and has nothing to gain by lying to make Brandon look worse.

But even taken at roughly face value, there is still plenty of room for various scenarios.

However one thing is sure.

It was a rash and stupid move to ride effectively unprotected to KL and call for the death of the crown prince.

Even if it was an abduction, there are better ways to go about both fixing the situation and obtaining retribution.

I also think there has to be more to Lyanna's "abduction": Rhaegar knew he would have insulted two great houses, he knew said great houses would react in some way, he knew his father was if not crazy, at least extremely paranoid.

Not 'extremely' paranoid. Just increasingly paranoid (increasing from 'nothing at all' before Duskendale and as recently as Harrenhal he was still on speaking terms with Aerys even if he felt Aerys didn't trust him about not finding tKotLT) and as much of Rhaegar as anyone else, at that stage.

There have been repeated attempts to paint Aerys in a much worse (or obviously worse) mental state than the books show us before Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna. But they don't seem to be founded on much - there is a distinct lack of information on this point and some people fill in this 'hole' in our knowledge with a vividly painted mad-Aerys picture in order to make Rhaegar look worse. It might be true, but it simply isn't painted like that in the text. There are some potential pointers, but they aren't strong.

Yet he did what he did and disappeared for 6 months. That would make him very irresponsible and maybe even a little crazy but all sources basically say the exact opposite. It doesn't add up.

Indeed it does not.

There are two possibilities.

Either all the sources are wrong, or he wasn't quite so irresponsible after all and we just don't have the full picture yet. Given we have almost no picture at all of the event and its immediate surrounds, it is definitely accurate to say we don't have the full picture yet, which means there is a definite possibility that he wasn't quite so irresponsible.

However a few people here have got very definite ideas about the things we don't know, and refuse to countenance any scenarios that don't fit with their ideas. Any scenario that sees Rhaegar as anything less than irresponsible is dismissed (or ignored) as a possibility and all the sources are wrong, or biased.

They might be right.

They might not.

I believe Lyanna went willingly, but I also believe it's irrelevant: she was not free to do so, and while she can be excused because of her age, the same thing doesn't apply to Rhaegar. He had to know it would have been taken as an abduction, especially if it happened at swordpoint. Another weird thing.

It's only weird because a) you've fixed the idea that Lyanna's choice has no impact at all (it may not legally make a difference, but IMO it would make a difference in reaction to a family as apprarently close as the Starks seemed to be), b ) fixed the idea that only Rhaegar will be held to account and not Lyanna (she might be a 'young' woman, but she is fully a woman in Westeros) and c) assumed that he (they) made no attempt to allay abduction fears (just because we haven't seen any, does not mean that there weren't any).

In short, it does seem weird at face value, but our face value isn't very fixed anyway. It could easily not be weird with couple of data gaps filled in.

Or it might just be weird!

And why the hell did Lyanna didn't communicate with anyone the whole time? We don't know for sure, but maybe Ned would have done things differently if he knew his sister was where she wanted to be. Why not try and tell him something? It couldn't hurt... I think it would have been worth a try, at least.

How could she communicate?

How do you know she didn't communicate?

What could Ned do differently?

ToJ probably didn't have ravens. It's a small out-of-the-way place not permanently occupied by anyone significant. Communication would have to be by physical messenger, or by Raven from another location (probably before reaching ToJ).

She may have communicated. Ned found her somehow, we don't know how. Rickard may have gotten word - all we know about him is that he came south at Aery's demand to stand trial for Brandon (we have zero data on Rickard re Lyanna's 'abduction', though we assume he would not initially be in favour having given his word to House Baratheon). Brandon may have intercepted a messenger - we don;t know how he found out either. Simple fact is, we basically don't know anything about any communication sent or received. Many people use that lack of data to assume that there were no communications at all, but that is using absence of evidence as evidence of absence.

Ned never had a choice. He was always reactive here (or more accurately, even when active gave an opportunity for others to choose a different path).

Aerys called for Ned's head. Ned had no choice but to follow Jon Arryn into rebellion.

Even at ToJ Ned gave the KG every opportunity to let him pass without fighting, talking to them first and reminding them (or informing them) of Viserys at Dragonstone. But Arthur Dayne knew that the KG didn't have a choice either, and was clearly saddened by it.

So whether Ned knew Lyanna's situation and thinking at ToJ or not, nothing could have changed (assuming R+L=Legitimate babe-King).

Since I've seen it discussed, even Dorne reacted badly to Rhaegar's actions: I think someone said somewhere (can't remember if it's in the books or it was Martin himself) that the dornish hesitated to send their troops because of Rhaegar's treatment of Elia, so yes, they took it as an insult.

That's also why Aerys had to send Lewyn Martell to "convince" them and why he distrusted the dornish and kept Elia and her children in KL as hostages.

Sure, Dorne weren't happy. No one was! But anything more than that is somewhat overblown. The Aerys stuff is all explainable by his paranoia (increasing again). Elia was perfectly fine, safe, secure and not abandoned in the Red Keep.

Much is made by a few of the 'abandonment' of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon by Rhaegar, but it's a load of rubbish. There is no abandonment. Elia is in no way legally or supportively diminished by Lyanna. Rhaegar disappears for 6 months or so, but such absences are the almost norm where lords and ladies often spend years apart for various reasons of duty etc. For example, there are suggestions by many people that Tywin rarely if ever allowed Joanna to come to KL because of distrusting Aerys (they are trying to counter Aerys+Joanna (possibly rape) = Tyrion possibilities), yet despite the fact that Tywin was Aerys' hand for 15 years or more and would have spent most of that time in KL, there is no suggestion that Tywin 'abandoned' Joanna. We have no idea whether or not Elia knew what Rhaegar was doing (or whether or not she approved).

In any case, my opinion is that Rhaegar was irresponsible, Brandon was reckless but the war is all and only Aerys' fault. Trying to shift the blame on anyone else just seems unreasonable to me.

Rhaegar may have been irresponsible, but that assumes a lot that we simply don't have data on and, as you suggest, doesn't quite tally up with what we are told.

Brandon was undoubtedly reckless - both how he is described by other and what we see of his actions do tally. He is given by some a small measure of blame by some (me included) for the war because it was his reckless stupidity that took an awkward but resolvable situation and inflamed it to a point where someone important had to die.

But Aerys is chiefly responsible.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Rhaegar didn’t cause the War. It was Brandon Stark’s treason that caused it.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Wasn't Aerys so paranoid of blades by the end of his reign that his fingernails were several inches long and his hair all matted and long? I mean, people saw him like that, and I'm sure he LOOKED like a nut, so I think this idea that no one knew how crazy Aerys was is a little overblown. He was Howard Hughes with pyromania by the end. They didn't know quite how bad it was, but enough to be concerned.

From So Spake Martin:

AERYS II. The Mad King. Only in his forties when he died, but he looked much older. Very thin (he was afraid of being poisoned) and gaunt, with wild, tangled hair past his shoulders, and fingernails almost a foot long (he would not allow blades in his presence, even to cut his hair and trim his beard). Wears the big, elaborate crown of Aegon the Unworthy.

This description seems to indicate a lifelong paranoia of not only blades but also poisoning.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Rhaegar didn’t cause the War. It was Brandon Stark’s treason that caused it.

If Brandon didn't react that way, Robert would have. It seems an untenable position, as the Starks and Robert were going to want her back, and Rhaegar wasn't going to return her. Now, what would have happened if Lyanna had come out and said to the world, "I want to be Mrs. Rhaegar Targaryen, folks, and even my sister-wife Elia is OK with it... back off!"? Would there still have been a war?

[Sksmith]

I agree with the OP. I think a lot of readers are projecting what they want to see revealed and Martin has done a great job of throwing out a lot of different leads. People who want Rhaegar and Lyanna to be Jon’s parents see a romantic angle, some see Robert’s angle that Rhaegar was a douche, some see the middle ground that Rhaegar was a good guy but misguided,etc.. It’ll be entertaining to see how it turns out. I personally hope the romantic types are wrong since most of the leads seem to be going that way and I’d hate for it to be that simple.

And its hilarious that people are blaming Brandon Stark for the war. So many people around here seem to want Rhaegar to be some kind of tragic hero.

[Dragons Dancing]

Yeah, we're all suckers for a Romeo & Juliet story. Not going to happen with GRRM. I think we can reliably assume that Rhaegar is a grey personality. He has some major flaws and he could be the villan, however he was likely just self obsessed and didn't think about how his actions could be miscontrued. His father was a nightmare and it was only a matter of time before someone took up arms against him.

[salmonprotocol34]

i'm pretty sure jean gray is azor ahai reborn ...

[Geddus]

Not a scumbag. We already knew he was wild and rash (wild wolf, ride to KL to declare treason etc). What Lady Dustin tells us is that effectively Brandon didn't have the same 'honour' code that Ned does and that he was willing to 'dishonour' a young noblewoman and then dump her - for whatever reason. This merely puts him on a par with most young men and is only important in the context of Ashara Dayne and Harrenhal.

And really, scorned woman or no, there isn't any reason to doubt the basic truth behind Lady Dustin's story. She might be lying, but there really doesn't seem any reasonable reason for such an elaborate story, and it does fit 'naturally' with the brash, handsome, everything-going-for-him heir to Winterfell. We might as well take it at face value until we see at least something contradictory.

I don't think Lady Dustin is lying, I believe she and Brandon Stark were lovers. But her description of him is biased (it can't be otherwise) and can't be considered valid, that's what I'm saying.

Sure, anything is possible.

But again, we might as well take what we are told at more or less face value here. Jaime was a witness and has nothing to gain by lying to make Brandon look worse.

But even taken at roughly face value, there is still plenty of room for various scenarios.

Again, I wasn't implying Jaime is lying, far from it: but it was a throwaway line, used to summarize a situation that could have been (and it most likely was) far more complicated than that. I mean, Brandon wasn't alone, he was with many other people, I strongly doubt they all started shouting "Rhaegar, you scumbag, we're gonna kill you" as soon as they got to King's Landing.

However one thing is sure.

It was a rash and stupid move to ride effectively unprotected to KL and call for the death of the crown prince.

Even if it was an abduction, there are better ways to go about both fixing the situation and obtaining retribution.

Well, if he went to simply ask what the hell happened to his sister (and then things escalated from there) it wouldn't be that stupid. We just don't know.

Not 'extremely' paranoid. Just increasingly paranoid (increasing from 'nothing at all' before Duskendale and as recently as Harrenhal he was still on speaking terms with Aerys even if he felt Aerys didn't trust him about not finding tKotLT) and as much of Rhaegar as anyone else, at that stage.

The tourney at Harrenhal was the first time Aerys set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, which means some years (4, I think). I think that's already way more than paranoid.

Also his treatment of Ilyn Payne or even Jaime at Harrenhal don't screem "sane" in my opinion, but that could be hindsight.

It's only weird because a) you've fixed the idea that Lyanna's choice has no impact at all (it may not legally make a difference, but IMO it would make a difference in reaction to a family as apprarently close as the Starks seemed to be), b ) fixed the idea that only Rhaegar will be held to account and not Lyanna (she might be a 'young' woman, but she is fully a woman in Westeros) and c) assumed that he (they) made no attempt to allay abduction fears (just because we haven't seen any, does not mean that there weren't any).

a) Lyanna can't decide who she marries, I don't think that's arguable. Maybe her wishes could sway her father's decision, that's true but we don't really know it (from what she says to Ned, she seems resigned to the fact she'll have to marry Robert, so there's that). B) Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, surely he has more responsibilities than the young daughter of a High Lord (by the way, isn't 16 the legal age in Westeros? If it is, Lyanna was still a child even there). c) is debatable, we have no info at all about it, we only have Robert thinking it was an abduction but he's clearly unreliable. However, it looks like Brandon reacted to an abduction, not an elopement.

How could she communicate?

How do you know she didn't communicate?

What could Ned do differently?

She most likely had no communication means from the ToJ, true. But that's what I find strange, why did Rhaegar cut himself off so completely from the outside world?

Robert kept thinking about kidnapping and rape until his death, so obviously he received no communication from Lyanna; maybe she told Ned, but in that case why didn't he say anything to Robert? It just looks like everyone beleved the kidnapping version until the end, but of course it's only speculation, we really don't have info about it.

As for things going differently, well, there's something else I think is weird: Rhaegar comes back after the Battle of the Bells and he spends quite some time (months) gathering his army and whatnot. Why the hell doesn't he also try to broker some sort of peace with the rebels? Robert and Ned are fighting because they have no other choice, Aerys wants them dead; they are also fighting to get Lyanna back. But Rhaegar is planning to depose his father anyway and we assume Lyanna is with him of her own will, so there's really no need for the war to go on.

I think we really need more info on the time period that goes from Lyanna's "abduction" to the Trident, too many things don't add up.

Sure, Dorne weren't happy. No one was! But anything more than that is somewhat overblown. The Aerys stuff is all explainable by his paranoia (increasing again). Elia was perfectly fine, safe, secure and not abandoned in the Red Keep.

Much is made by a few of the 'abandonment' of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon by Rhaegar, but it's a load of rubbish. There is no abandonment. Elia is in no way legally or supportively diminished by Lyanna. Rhaegar disappears for 6 months or so, but such absences are the almost norm where lords and ladies often spend years apart for various reasons of duty etc.

You're really saying that a husband who leaves his wife and children to go, say, to war, is the same as a husband who disappears to go have fun with his younger lover?

Rhaegar may have been irresponsible, but that assumes a lot that we simply don't have data on and, as you suggest, doesn't quite tally up with what we are told.

Brandon was undoubtedly reckless - both how he is described by other and what we see of his actions do tally. He is given by some a small measure of blame by some (me included) for the war because it was his reckless stupidity that took an awkward but resolvable situation and inflamed it to a point where someone important had to die.

But Aerys is chiefly responsible.

See, that's what I don't understand: we know that some of Rhaegar's actions indeed make him seem irresponsible; however, since they don't add up with other informations we have about him, you say that we can't really say he was irresponsible and we can't even say he is in any way to blame or the war because we don't have the full picture.

I can agree with that, however then you say that Brandon on the contrary is partially to blame, even if we know absolutely nothing of his actions except from a single line from Jaime that could mean anything. I think that's a double standard.