[aDwD spoilers] Revisiting Rhaegar

[TheKingsWolf]

You want examples of irrelevant arguments? How about the fact that people are trying to argue that Rhaegar was in fact a better warrior than Robert. That is clearly not the case. Rhaegar chose the weapon he was best with as did Robert. The results are clear. Either way it doesn't change that Rhaegars actions were selfish and irresponsible.

Anyone who is trying to justify a married man with two children abandoning his family while eloping with a young girl who was already engaged to his cousin, has clearly lost the plot. These are selfish and vain actions. And to suggest that no other literary examples regarding fate are relevant is ridiculous.

I fully agree that up to that point Rhaegar appeared to be a great leader but to be frank I think those actions are flat out abhorrent. I think if anyone in this thread were in the shoes of a Stark or Baratheon they would respond as unfolded.

[Salander]

This conclusion is too much but we do not have information to conclude.

One thing to consider is that Ned's POV he would never think anything negative about Rhaegar and in conversations with Robert he would never agree with his opinion, he is neutral, if my sister is kidnapped, raped, the raper in question is a bad character, hardly my thoughts about him will be neutral. There is much information that we do not know.

This point has been well argued up above and throughout this thread. We don't know that. We know of one passing comment about Rhaegar and brothels that doesn't go: Rhaegar is a sister raping, kidnapping, killing, XYZ and people make a big deal about it. This is not the diaries of Ned Stark whereby we get to see every single thought by Ned Stark on every single individual/action of the past. We have snippets of information that people have built arguments on. Some, in my opinion, are weaker than others - especially when analysing form, thematics, character constructions, misdirection (as someone stated above) are divulged in Martin's series.

In terms of Robert and Ned: that is not the case. Ned did not disagree with Robert's assessment of Rhaegar in the crypts of Winterfell. He never stands up and says: Rhaegar is a good guy. Ned stands up to Robert when his own values of honour and code of conduct is challenged i.e. Robert wanting to kill Dany and her unborn child.

[Salander]

I recall at some point in some inn there being a romantic song about Lyanna and Rhaeghar, so it would seem a sizable part of the realm never believed the kidnapping story. When you consider how many, nobles to peasants, still speak the world of Rhaeghar it seems doubtful that the rape story was widely accepted. I think Martin was intending to communicate that the level of popular support for the conflicting stories was split and unclear, with many believing rape, others love affair, and most probably having no real stance either way.

There was also a romantic song about the love between Margery and Renly. Clearly, that was fiction. Renly preferred Marg's brother.

As for Tyroshi Sellsword's argument re: melancholy - nice catch. The medieval interpretation of "melancholy" was that of a troubled soul. It wasn't viewed as a "positive" or romantic being, rather an untrustworthy person that wasn't at peace. The best example in Shakespearean literature is Hamlet.

Although people can differ in their interpretations, the medieval interpretation of "melancholy" was something we would view now as mental illness (the exact one - is up for debate).

[Nina]

This point has been well argued up above and throughout this thread. We don't know that. We know of one passing comment about Rhaegar and brothels that doesn't go: Rhaegar is a sister raping, kidnapping, killing, XYZ and people make a big deal about it. This is not the diaries of Ned Stark whereby we get to see every single thought by Ned Stark on every single individual/action of the past. We have snippets of information that people have built arguments on. Some, in my opinion, are weaker than others - especially when analysing form, thematics, character constructions, misdirection (as someone stated above) are divulged in Martin's series.

In terms of Robert and Ned: that is not the case. Ned did not disagree with Robert's assessment of Rhaegar in the crypts of Winterfell. He never stands up and says: Rhaegar is a good guy. Ned stands up to Robert when his own values of honour and code of conduct is challenged i.e. Robert wanting to kill Dany and her unborn child.

Robert felt deep hatred for Rhaegar, Ned defend Rhaegar in front of King Robert only if he was insane.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

So I think the possibility is there that there would have been conflict anyway, so long as Aerys remained king.

This is precisely why it was so irresponsible and crazy for Rhaegar to do what he did just then. He knew his dad was becoming increasingly erratic and would have to be dealt with, and that should have been his first priority.

However, this does not mean that each link in this chain of events followed irrevocably from the link that came before; nor does it mean that Rhaegar and Lyanna ought to have seen this specific chain of events coming. No more so than, say, the European leaders ought to have seen WWI coming after Franz Ferdinand was assassinated (which they didn't).

Yet many scholars will argue just that: that WWI could have been anticipated, but this isn't a perfect comparison, as the precipitator of this event was the Crown Prince, and his co-precipitator was the daughter of one of the major houses, engaged to another scion of the major house. Rhaegar had to know it was going to be very, very bad, or he just does not have the brains or insight to be a great leader as so many claimed.

Also, we must remember that although there were risks to Rhaegar running off with Lyanna, one or both of them may have considered those risks justified, in light of the looming threat of the Others. This is what I mean when I say we must add context and perspective to their actions.

There were many other ways to go about this than the one chosen.

Here is the definition of "clinically depressed", as outlined by wikipedia:

Funny, this is the definition of dysthmia I found, and it fits Rhaegar perfectly:

Persistent sad or empty feeling

Difficulty sleeping (sleeping too much or too little)

Insomnia (early morning awakening)

Feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, and worthlessness

Feelings of guilt

Loss of interest or the ability to enjoy oneself

Loss of energy or fatigue

Difficulty concentrating, thinking or making decisions

Changes in appetite (overeating or loss of appetite)

Observable mental and physical sluggishness

Persistent aches or pains, headaches, cramps, or digestive problems that do not ease even with treatment

Thoughts of death or suicide

Persistent sad and empty feelings? Check. Don't know how he slept. Feelings of helplessnes and hopelessness? Check. Lost ability to enjoy oneself? Check. Difficulty making decisions? I'd say his judgment was impaired. Thoughts of death or suicide? Yes. So if he had sleep problems, and/or a lack of appetite, I'd say he had enough to qualify, as you don't have to have ALL the symptoms to have the disease.

Rhaegar was depressed. It wasn't just a bit of sadness-- it was an inability to be happy, a persistent dwelling on death and doom, a problem with decision-making. I'm just so pleased to see that you too can deny clear evidence when it's staring you in the face.

[Salander]

Robert felt deep hatred for Rhaegar, Ned defend Rhaegar in front of King Robert only if he was insane.

Ned didn't have any problem standing up to Robert on other issues. Perhaps he didn't need to defend Rhaegar to Robert because Ned agreed with Robert's assessment?

[Dragonfish]

This is precisely why it was so irresponsible and crazy for Rhaegar to do what he did just then. He knew his dad was becoming increasingly erratic and would have to be dealt with, and that should have been his first priority.

As I said, he may have believed his first priority was to make a third head of the dragon, in order to protect the realm from the Others.

There were many other ways to go about this than the one chosen.

How do you know Rhaegar didn't try other avenues?

Funny, this is the definition of dysthmia I found, and it fits Rhaegar perfectly:

Persistent sad or empty feeling

Difficulty sleeping (sleeping too much or too little)

Insomnia (early morning awakening)

Feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, and worthlessness

Feelings of guilt

Loss of interest or the ability to enjoy oneself

Loss of energy or fatigue

Difficulty concentrating, thinking or making decisions

Changes in appetite (overeating or loss of appetite)

Observable mental and physical sluggishness

Persistent aches or pains, headaches, cramps, or digestive problems that do not ease even with treatment

Thoughts of death or suicide

Persistent sad and empty feelings? Check. Don't know how he slept. Feelings of helplessnes and hopelessness? Check. Lost ability to enjoy oneself? Check. Difficulty making decisions? I'd say his judgment was impaired. Thoughts of death or suicide? Yes. So if he had sleep problems, and/or a lack of appetite, I'd say he had enough to qualify, as you don't have to have ALL the symptoms to have the disease.

First, dysthymia is a milder form of depression that has fewer serious symptoms.

Second, where does it say that he had feelings of helplessness and hopelessness? (This is an honest question, I don't remember if the book says this or not).

Third, even if you accept all the "symptoms" above, that still means Rhaegar had 5 symptoms out of 12. Not exactly a slam-dunk case.

Finally, you said, "if he had sleep problems, and/or a lack of appetite, I'd say he had enough to qualify." You seem to be saying that Rhaegar would qualify if he had a couple more symptoms. Doesn't that technically mean we don't know if he qualified until we find out if he had a couple more symptoms? You seem to be assuming he did have these last two symptoms, and therefore was depressed, when we don't really know if he had these symptoms at all.

[Dragonfish]

Ned didn't have any problem standing up to Robert on other issues. Perhaps he didn't need to defend Rhaegar to Robert because Ned agreed with Robert's assessment?

From AGoT:

[Robert said,] "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves.

Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert's thirst for revenge, no words of his would help.

This seems to be pretty good evidence that Ned would not try to contradict Robert's assumptions about Rhaegar because, in the narrator's phrasing, "no words of his would help."

[iamthedave]

Second, where does it say that he had feelings of helplessness and hopelessness? (This is an honest question, I don't remember if the book says this or not)

Finally, you said, "if he had sleep problems, and/or a lack of appetite, I'd say he had enough to qualify." You seem to be saying that Rhaegar would qualify if he had a couple more symptoms. Doesn't that technically mean we don't know if he qualified until we find out if he had a couple more symptoms? You seem to be assuming he did have these last two symptoms, and therefore was depressed, when we don't really know if he had these symptoms at all.

You've frequently quoted Barristan Selmy concerning Rhaegar, so it only seems fair to remind you that Barristan said, about Rhaegar, 'I don't think he had it in him to be happy'.

Quibbling semantics seems petty to me. He was obviously depressed. He spent his time composing sad songs that made people cry, sleeping in the ruins of the home where his family died, and going about things in a businesslike, detached and dutiful way. Maybe that sounds like a man full of joy and energy to you, but it doesn't to me.

As for helplessness, hopelessness, he lived as a slave to prophecy. How much more hopeless can you get?

There's no evidence he tried to steer his own path, he did everything according to what he believed he had to do to make a prophecy come true. You've even suggested that this prophecy may have required immediate conception, and is the reason why Rhaegar made his collossal error of judgement with Lyanna. Seems a reasonable thing to say, to me.

Besides, given the ridiculous amount you've hinged on one line of internal monologue from Ned, I see no reason not to hinge a fair bit on Barristan's line of external dialogue about Rhaegar.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

How do you know Rhaegar didn't try other avenues?

I'm not going to make shit up that's not in the books. No evidence that he did.

OK, I'm breaking out the DSM IV to see the criteria for dysthmia (thanks a lot, haven't had to break that thing out in a decade).

A. Depressed mood for most of the day, more days than not, as indicated by subjective account or observation by others, for at least two years.

EVIDENCE: I think Barristan Selmy would vouch for this one.

B. Has 2 or more of the following:

1. Appetite disturbance

2. sleep disturbance

3. low energy/fatigue

4. low self-esteem

5. poor concentration/difficulty making decisions

6. feelings of hopelessness

EVIDENCE: I'm going to say definitely 5 and 6, b/c we can't know about the others. A person who relies on prophesy to make all his decisions for him is a good description of #5, and #6 is his pervasive sense of doom. I'm kind of guessing he seems like the type who doesn't sleep too hot and wanders around ruins at night, sleeping outside and writing sad sad songs about dead people.

C. During the 2 year period, has never been without the symptoms for 2 months.

D. No major depressive episodes

E. No manic episodes

F. No psychosis

G. Not due to drugs

H. Symptoms cause clinically significant distress

C-H are true, no debate there. So, even without those symptoms, he qualifies, and if he has trouble sleeping or poor appetite, it's a lock. We can't know that for sure, but it's pretty persuasive. I mean, I feel like there's enough here to give one pause.

And you know what? I'm starting to think maybe Rhaegar was not dysthmic but bipolar, and took off with Lyanna during a manic episode. It fits! Who the heck knows? He's a fictional character and we will probably never have all the facts, but we don't have all the facts about anything, and yet we've both drawn plenty of conclusions. You choose not to draw this one b/c it makes your precious Rhaegar mentally ill. I choose to draw it b/c it explains why he threw his life away and the lives of so many people he loved. Being mentally ill is not a character flaw, it's just an explanation for his reckless behavior that isn't soaked in romanticism.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

This seems to be pretty good evidence that Ned would not try to contradict Robert's assumptions about Rhaegar because, in the narrator's phrasing, "no words of his would help."

The line was "there was nothing he could say to that." Which sounds a lot different from "no words of his would help."

[iamthedave]

The line was "there was nothing he could say to that." Which sounds a lot different from "no words of his would help."

Ned does comment on Robert's rage several times, and it's clear Robert's irrational when it comes to his hate of the Targs.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Ned does comment on Robert's rage several times, and it's clear Robert's irrational when it comes to his hate of the Targs.

Oh yes, he definitely is. I think Robert fixates on hating Rhaegar so he doesn't have to think about being betrayed by Lyanna. It's ALL Rhaegar's fault, he's a monster, so Lyanna is a sainted victim and not the girl he loved who jilted him for some silver haired emo guy. He's way off on that, but Ned is letting him have his perfect memory of Lyanna, b/c doing otherwise would jeopardize Jon. However, in that first chapter in AGoT, here's what is said:

"A thousand deaths will be less than he deserves."

There was nothing Ned could say to that.

Could mean that he knows arguing with Robert is futile. Could mean he agrees with Robert about Rhaegar in substance if not in extent. It's pretty ambiguous.

[UnknownSoldier]

Oh yes, he definitely is. I think Robert fixates on hating Rhaegar so he doesn't have to think about being betrayed by Lyanna. It's ALL Rhaegar's fault, he's a monster, so Lyanna is a sainted victim and not the girl he loved who jilted him for some silver haired emo guy. He's way off on that, but Ned is letting him have his perfect memory of Lyanna, b/c doing otherwise would jeopardize Jon. However, in that first chapter in AGoT, here's what is said:

"A thousand deaths will be less than he deserves."

There was nothing Ned could say to that.

Could mean that he knows arguing with Robert is futile. Could mean he agrees with Robert about Rhaegar in substance if not in extent. It's pretty ambiguous.

I agree with you. I always got the feeling from the flashback/story we got in that one Bran chapter that Lyana returned Rhaegar's feelings for her. It's mentioned time and again that Arya is reminiscent of Lyana, which makes me believe that Lyana could have easily just run off with Rheagar without caring about what people thought (it's something I can see Arya doing). Seeing as how Robert has some major hate for the Targs, trying to convince him of this would have been a bad idea.

[mistrad]

OMG, I know this thread has gotten out of control when people are pulling out DSM IV.

I think that there are enough hints that Rhaegar was at least dysthymic. He had issues. He had a marriage he was not totally happy in, and an insane father. That will do things to your head, I assume.

I think Ned's inability to stand up for Rhaegar is simply knowing that he should not fight an unwinnable battle, especially for a person who is dead. When Ned does stand up to Robert to save Dany's life from assassins, I think at least he thinks he is achieving something by standing up for his principles. Nothing is achieved for fighting for the long dead Rhaegar.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

OMG, I know this thread has gotten out of control when people are pulling out DSM IV.

You couldn't be more right.

[Daemon23]

I am not going to address or rebut every argument in the thread, but sticking to my reading of the books I feel that Rhaegar was by and large a good and noble person. The only person who spoke of him with anything less than admiration was Robert, who was driven by a need to believe that the woman he loved had the same regard for him - which she apparently did not.

Oberyn Martell was not a man to hide his scorn, and he seems indeed to have been at the tourney at Harrenhal. He was unrelenting in seeking to avenge Elia's death, but we do not hear that he displayed any disapproval of Rhaegar's crowning Lyanna - although "all smiles died" indicates he may not have been pleased. Still, in accounts of him elsewhere, no mention is made of any vendetta he held against Rhaegar in particular or Targaryens in general. Likewise conspicuous in its absence is any indication from any of the Sand Snakes that they felt Elia had been dishonored by her husband. My conclusion is that Dorne was philosophical about Rhaegar's attention to Lyanna, in a way that they certainly were not about he death.

Eddard Stark was a POV character, and we shared at least some of his thoughts. While Lyanna's death plainly haunted him, we are not shown any acrimony against Rhaegar. Only the thought that Rhaegar Targaryen did not seem the sort to frequent brothels - and Ned had a distaste for brothels. As often as the topic arose with Robert, Ned never speaks against Rhaegar even though it would have been politic in dealing with the king. If instead he spoke no ill of Rhaegar, I think it is no great leap to assume he thought none.

Rhaegar was the slain prince of an overthrown ruling House. There was no mileage in upholding his reputation. There would be no reprisals for ill-speaking him. In Robert's court, there may even have been favor to be gained by slighting Rhaegar posthumously. But Robert aside, no one has an ill opinion of Rhaegar, and we have heard many characters, even POV characters, speak and think highly of him. Not one qualifies that with "but he totally flaked out on Elia." The closest anyone comes is Jorah Mormont - no paragon of virtue but a man who made his own bad choices for love, who tempered his praise with "and Rhaegar died." That comes off more as "all the noble character in the world won't help you with a big warhammer punching your own ribs through your lungs" than disparaging Rhaegar as a person.

Now, who has been emerging as having been callous and rash and having a sense of entitlement is Brandon Stark. I want to do a careful re-read soon, and when I do, that is something I will be paying more attention to. But that is the topic for its own thread.

[Dragonfish]

Quibbling semantics seems petty to me. He was obviously depressed. He spent his time composing sad songs that made people cry, sleeping in the ruins of the home where his family died, and going about things in a businesslike, detached and dutiful way. Maybe that sounds like a man full of joy and energy to you, but it doesn't to me.

Clinical depression is a specific mental state, with a specific definition and specific symptoms. It's only fair that we talk about whether or not Rhaegar fulfills those symptoms. You call that "quibbling", I call that the business of diagnosis.

As for helplessness, hopelessness, he lived as a slave to prophecy. How much more hopeless can you get?

The symptom is "feelings of hopelessness, helplessness, or worthlessness." We don't really know how Rhaegar felt about his "duty" to fulfill this prophecy.

One thing I've always wondered, though, is if Rhaegar felt an impending sense of doom because he believed the prophecy required his death. No evidence for this, obviously, but it's something to consider.

Besides, given the ridiculous amount you've hinged on one line of internal monologue from Ned

I haven't "hinged" anything on Ned's internal monologue. Certainly the argument over this bit of internal monologue took up a lot of pages, but that doesn't mean that everything I'm arguing hinges on it. It just became a major point of contention between me and a couple other posters.

I'm not going to make shit up that's not in the books. No evidence that he did.

No evidence that he didn't, either. Claiming that he didn't is making things up just as much as claiming that he did.

OK, I'm breaking out the DSM IV to see the criteria for dysthmia (thanks a lot, haven't had to break that thing out in a decade).

Well, if you didn't want to break it out, then you probably shouldn't have tried to diagnose a literary character.

A. Depressed mood for most of the day, more days than not, as indicated by subjective account or observation by others, for at least two years.

EVIDENCE: I think Barristan Selmy would vouch for this one.

Agreed. No argument on this front.

A person who relies on prophesy to make all his decisions for him is a good description of #5

Disagree. Rhaegar lives in a world where prophecies are real and have actual predictive power. Not to mention that he's actually right about the coming threat of the Others, and may be right that the product of his union with Lyanna would be one of the heads of the dragon.

and #6 is his pervasive sense of doom.

Hmmm...not sure I agree that "pervasive sense of doom" counts as hopelessness or worthlessness. The fact that he's trying to save the world doesn't make him sound hopeless to me. But I suppose I could be persuaded.

I'm kind of guessing he seems like the type who doesn't sleep too hot

Oh, so now we're guessing, are we? Well, I can play that game too: I'm guessing Rhaegar was perfect, therefore he was perfect. Hooray, I win!

H. Symptoms cause clinically significant distress

Just out of curiosity, how are you defining "clinically significant distress"? Are you referring to his "sense of doom" here?

We can't know that for sure, but it's pretty persuasive. I mean, I feel like there's enough here to give one pause.

It gives pause, perhaps, but it doesn't seem like a slam-dunk case to me.

And you know what? I'm starting to think maybe Rhaegar was not dysthmic but bipolar, and took off with Lyanna during a manic episode.

Oh god, now we're moving on to bipolar disorder? First it's major depression, then dysthymia, now manic-depression. Not to mention that by your own admission we have no indication that he ever had any manic episodes. To paraphrase your own words, let's not make shit up that's not in the books.

[Dragonfish]

The line was "there was nothing he could say to that." Which sounds a lot different from "no words of his would help."

Right, but my point is that we have good, textual evidence for why Ned might not correct Robert on Rhaegar's character, if Ned knew/believed Rhaegar was mostly a good person who didn't rape Lyanna. This is not evidence that this is what Ned believes, obviously, but it at least makes it a possibility.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

One thing I've always wondered, though, is if Rhaegar felt an impending sense of doom because he believed the prophecy required his death. No evidence for this, obviously, but it's something to consider.

Selmy said he was dwelling on what happened at Summerhall and feeling like he was born under a bad sign. I think he latched onto prophesy as a way of counteracting that, like, "If I can just do something great, to change this horrible doom we are all under, then I will be relieved of these feelings of sorrow." I think this is a terribly misguided way of approaching life, but it is noble.

No evidence that he didn't, either. Claiming that he didn't is making things up just as much as claiming that he did.

No one ever mentions it. Good enough for me. He certainly didn't contact the Lord of Winterfell, Ned Stark, nor her fiance Robert Baratheon. Who else would he have asked? Rickard? When would he have done that?

Well, if you didn't want to break it out, then you probably shouldn't have tried to diagnose a literary character.

Sense of humor? Anywhere?

Disagree. Rhaegar lives in a world where prophecies are real and have actual predictive power. Not to mention that he's actually right about the coming threat of the Others, and may be right that the product of his union with Lyanna would be one of the heads of the dragon.

Are they real? It seems like they tend to fulfill themselves. Look to such classical templates are Macbeth and Oedipus: trying to avoid the prophesies CAUSES them to be fulfilled. We see this with Dany. I don't think all prophesies are equal, and Rhaegar bases his LIFE around them, which is certainly not particularly healthy behavior.

Hmmm...not sure I agree that "pervasive sense of doom" counts as hopelessness or worthlessness. The fact that he's trying to save the world doesn't make him sound hopeless to me. But I suppose I could be persuaded.

Pervasive sense of doom = hopelessness

Oh, so now we're guessing, are we? Well, I can play that game too: I'm guessing Rhaegar was perfect, therefore he was perfect. Hooray, I win!

You will note that I don't need the sleep thing to get two, and we do have Selmy talking about him sleeping alone up in Summerhall under the moon. It's a wisp, but it's as much as you go on sometimes.

Just out of curiosity, how are you defining "clinically significant distress"? Are you referring to his "sense of doom" here?

You cannot be happy. You feel doomed. You based your life decisions around prophesies. You do reckless things that ruin people's lives. I'd call that clinically significant distress. I bet even Rhaegar would say he was significantly distressed.

Oh god, now we're moving on to bipolar disorder? First it's major depression, then dysthymia, now manic-depression. Not to mention that by your own admission we have no indication that he ever had any manic episodes. To paraphrase your own words, let's not make shit up that's not in the books.

I think I said "clinical depression." You said "major depression." Then I said dysthmia, which is clinical depression. But leafing through DSM IV, I saw bipolar disorder, and said, hey, you know, maybe. I didn't admit he never had manic episodes. IF he didn't, he fits dysthmia. If the Lyanna absconding was a manic episode, then it's no longer dysthmia, it's bipolar disorder. But who knows. This is just an exercise in silliness now, as I think I've made my case. Sorry your perfect Rhaegar suffers from a mental illness. It actually makes me more sympathetic to him to think of him this way and not some selfish, arrogant prince who just takes what he wants.