(ADWD SPOILERS) Reek Chapters

[Free Northman]

I don't buy this, 'Sympathise with a character due to his childhood, extenuating circumstances etc' crap.

If a guy invades my home in the middle of the night to rob me and kill my family, I will put him down if I have the means, and not have any sleepless nights over it.

Whether he was abused as a child, had an uncaring father or self esteem issues, I don't give a shit.

Theon and his whole Ironborn clan are such a gang of home invaders, only on a massive scale. In my view it is unrealistic that Lady Mormont was even willing to speak to Asha without spitting in her face in Stannis's camp.

This whole female solidarity undertone between them is highly unrealistic, given that Bear Island has been the target of Ironborn reavers for countless generations. And Asha wasn't in the North to have a picnic, she was captured while reaving.

Swift execution is the only logical course of action for any Ironborn pirates captured in the North or in any other territory they were caught reaving in. Stannis had political reasons for temporarily sparing her, but that doesn't mean Lady Mormont had to put aside her hatred and somehow develop sympathy for the brutal pirate.

Sure, Theon is a product of his genes and his environment, but that does not excuse him. It merely explains him.

You can have an intellectual debate over why a rabid dog acts the way it does, but then you still put it down.

The same goes for Theon, all the Ironborn, Dothraki, Narrow Sea pirates like Sallador Saan, slavers and any other group of people that make a living by terrorizing, enslaving and murdering innocent people.

You can explain what made them what they are, just like science can attempt to explain how a virus like HIV or Ebola evolved. But then you eradicate them and heave a heave a sigh of relief after a job well done. You don't sympathise and feel all sorry for these monsters. Rather feel sorry for all the families they have destroyed and people they have killed.

[lady crackhead]

Kingslayer

Nothing to add, really, except tangentially note how much I love Theon's portrayal on Game of Thrones. D&D did a much better job than GRRM (there, I said it) in foreshadowing Theon's future actions, and giving them some basis.

Bon ami. I couldnt agree more, to my delight. I wasnt holding out any hopes that anyone would get asoaif right, let alone Theon's character, but theyve outdone the author in this case (& in quite a few other areas, too). And although not the Theon in my head, I love Alfie Allen's portrayal. Hard. He's got the chops & he's going to carve the next season up to ribbons if they continue on this winning path.

It's not the foreshadowing so much as the emotional depth to the character. It shows how Theon would feel as a hostage (even if some of the scenes are a bit heavy-handed).

See: meme.

Miriamele

He did mention once that Ned tried to play the father to him, but he (Theon)wouldn't have it, so maybe Ned did try to establish a better relationship. Theon smiled a lot and acted boisterous and confident.

He mentions it in way that referred to Ned's disciplining of Theon. Of course Theon at 9yrs, would balk at Ned trying to take over his father's position based on what he did to his family & himself. His loyalty to his family is important and feeling a wish to be accepted by Ned like a son would have caused guilt in him, & so any kids that age would resist that. Kids of divorce do it all the time, you dont have to be kidnapped as a hostage to feel that way. But that would have only lasted initially & it would have been up to Ned to breech that exterior in the kid. Kids at that age crave & need a parental figure, obviously, & are vulnerable; kid Theon was no exception. It's Ned's failure and serious lack of foresight. Unless you want to contend that Theon was bad inherently through his ironman genetics, for which you really dont have any support. Like you say, when he was on Pyke he was described as a shy kid, not as an aggressive or pathological one. And not any more “troubled” than any other kid growing up with asshole brothers.

His mother actually does sound loving & Balon gets a bad rap. I dont get the feeling that he was sterner than Ned. Theon didnt dread coming back to face him at all, which I wouldnt expect if Balon had been an abusive dad to Theon from when he was a child. Also, Balon loves his daughter & puts his trust in her to lead. You can feel the affection there between them, so it's not like he's some nasty HarryPotter character like some people like to make him out to be. Balon's position on a daughter/woman is pretty progressive considering a lot of the laws of Westros, etc., too.

He holds this view only for his daughter/woman, I know, because the Old Way allows rape in warfare, obviously. They do not sow in part because they have nothing to sow in their rocky soil, & few resources. It's economic reasons that force them to steal, & rape probably is 1) a way to terrify people; 2) an incentive to war; & 3) a boon to the industry & population to the Iron Isles. It's there for a reason, but like others have pointed out, rape & theft are rampant in the rest of Westros. Women didnt count for anything unless they were highborn. So Lannister OR Stark soldiers on the march would rape you & if you were lucky, wouldnt kill you. The Ironborn did what Dany wanted her people to do under Drogo, which was to take the women & marry them. So essentially they both believed that war was war, you kill the enemy, & instead of raping the trophy women and killing them, steal them & marry them and mak them your responsibility, , and then rape them for the rest of their lives. It wasnt a perfect world to say the least. As for the Ironborn being loathsome as a people & irredeemable, I think all the Scandinavian boarders should weigh in on how their respective cultures view their ancestors. Maybe they all blush like girls when theyre brought up in polite society. Sure. Why not.

Are you saying that there is some moral ambiguity in landing your ships on the shores of a peaceful village, rampaging into the midst of families at their dinner tables and smashing axes into the skulls of fathers trying to protect their little children, and raping the mothers before taking them off as thralls?

Is there some possibility that this is NOT an abomination

?

'Lions or wolves, theyre all the same,' to paraphrase a commoner in the books. The Ironmen have no corner on rape, murder & theft. But go ahead, live in your own fantasy within a fantasy ;p

I spent a year in a foster home from the age of 5 to 6 years old. Let me tell you, there is no replacing having true loving people around you. And even the Greyjoys loved Theon in their own way.

I get the feeling that most people who so vigorously excoriate Theon have little to no idea that there are people who can empathize in any way with what happened to him as a child. I dont think they even stop to consider it, probably out of a bias to the Starks. But it is disheartening to think that they are so inflexible as to not try to understand something outside of their own comfortable reference, but instead become immediately self-righteous.

They are known for failed rebellions, as Maester Luwin said it.

I wont bother to look it up but Im pretty sure that the Ironmen were very successful conquerors at least at one point. It had something to do with Harrenhal, too...

Theon could have been treated like the Ironborn would have, to a northern hostage. Maybe he was viewed as a thrall, he wouldn't have identity problems, and be a proud northman (like Qarl the Thrall).

Qarl the Maid. Dont mess with one of the best if not the best names in these books.

And what would thrall Theon's skill be to the Winterfell house? Fucking the servant girls to make more servant girls?

Would he have been better or worse off being raised by Balon? I'd say worse, just because Theon's sense of guilt and belief in his own worth besides his physical strength are both really helpful to him now, and he wouldn't likely have had either of those things if he'd been raised under Balon the-rapist-murderer-might-is-right guy

.

Worse according to whom? Your own definition of worse, you mean. Not his culture's.

How does guilt help him? The fact that he had any guilt over anything at all started the day he was snatched from his family. So, NO; living with Ned caused the guilt & the identity crisis that led to the so-called bad decisions.

And then he did a lot of other callous things also out of arrogance and not really understanding that his actions could have dire consequences or an ability to see things from other people's points of view.

That's hilarious. You just described everybody who's ever took part in a war or backed one.

I think he's since learned a fair amount of empathy, judging from the way he empathizes with Jeyne

Empathy doesnt count for much in that world, maybe youve noticed. Empathy doesnt insure you survival or power over your own life in that world. Can you also point to one passage where he's explicitly empathizing with Jeyne, one that cant be interpreted to be done out of a selfish motive or that youve read into? Im just curious, because I dont think Ive seen one in the entire thread, even though its said over & over that he empathizes with her, etc.

Balon had to believe that he would, so Ned made him believe he would -- which likely convinced Theon he would, too, as a side-effect. I doubt that he actually would kill Theon, because if Balon is willing to just reave and rape without even worrying about his children being murdered, then he's a lost cause and has to be killed anyway -- so at that point, why kill Theon, too?

Is Ned king? Did Ned change the laws regarding hostages? Ned is not beholden just to Ned & Ned's Honor. Ned is beholden to the rest of the houses, as I mentioned before, & they would insist that Theon be returned to Balon dead, if Balon so much as sneezed their way. It goes against everything Ned stands for to take Theon on as a hostage with these terms only to think that when the day comes, he;s going to pull a fast one on the other lords. And fuck up his precious

honor.

SO many good posts, David Selig, Frakkin Kraken, & more.

Welcome back, Pale_Valkyrie.

[Free Northman]

I haven't seen the series yet, but if by "outdid" the author you mean they portrayed Theon in a more sympathetic light, is this in the same way that they portrayed Sansa more sympythetically by omitting the scene where she tells Cersei of her father's plans to leave King's Landing?

Basically, that's not improving the story, it is just changing the way in which Martin intended the character to be portrayed. In other words, the Sansa in the story is then not the real Sansa, but a Sansa that will be more likeable to audiences.

[Summerwind]

I really enjoyed Theon/Reeks chapters in aDwD, i thought they were some of the best written, and you couldnt help feeling a bit sorry for the guy, but I still dont think he's atoned or redeemed himself just because he had some toes and fingers (11th?) chopped off... while he seems like he is starting to regret his decisions, his thoughts when he started to think more like Theon still seemed pretty douchey and selfish, unlike Jamie who you could tell was making an obvious effort to better himself.

However, now that he can start being Theon instead of Reek who was just terrified of losing skin, we can see what he actually intends to do with his second chance.. I kind of hope he ends up going to the NW, one of the most excited Ive been with the series was when the Maester ALMOST got him to give up Winterfell for the Wall, I really wanted to see him kick some ass with Jon, however that will be alot harder without half his fingers... but If he does end up going back to the Iron islands I feel like he'll just get power hungry again and turn into a dick, its kind of hard to be compassionate and nice there, even harder since no one will give him respect since hes such a wimp now

[Free Northman]

I really enjoyed Theon/Reeks chapters in aDwD, i thought they were some of the best written, and you couldnt help feeling a bit sorry for the guy, but I still dont think he's atoned or redeemed himself just because he had some toes and fingers (11th?) chopped off... while he seems like he is starting to regret his decisions, his thoughts when he started to think more like Theon still seemed pretty douchey and selfish, unlike Jamie who you could tell was making an obvious effort to better himself.

However, now that he can start being Theon instead of Reek who was just terrified of losing skin, we can see what he actually intends to do with his second chance.. I kind of hope he ends up going to the NW, one of the most excited Ive been with the series was when the Maester ALMOST got him to give up Winterfell for the Wall, I really wanted to see him kick some ass with Jon, however that will be alot harder without half his fingers... but If he does end up going back to the Iron islands I feel like he'll just get power hungry again and turn into a dick, its kind of hard to be compassionate and nice there, even harder since no one will give him respect since hes such a wimp now

To answer the original question of this thread, I enjoyed the Reek chapters a lot. But not because I am sympathetic to Theon. I enjoyed them partly for the opposite reason, and partly for the great insight it gave us into a very important location in the story.

Nothing that happens to Theon will get me to feel sorry for him, but I can still enjoy good writing and an interesting story, which the Reek chapters definitely provide.

As for Theon's fate - well he is buggered basically - probably literally and figuratively. He can't really play a meaningful role going forward as he can't fight, but unlike Tyrion he cannot even compensate for this with mental prowess. He is too messed up by his torture.

Plus, he is leaking urine and faeces due to whatever was done to him "below".

He will die some bittersweet death where he saves someone of importance, but that's about the best that can be expected from him. He dug his own grave and now it is just a question of how long he hangs around before lying down in it.

[Free Northman]

I have to laugh at how Martin introduced the fact that Theon would return in Dance.

If I recall correctly Martin mentioned that: "We will see the return of an old character, though somewhat worse for wear."

Hehe. Understatement of note.

[Miriamele]

I can feel sorry for Theon and undeerstand his childhood traumas but that doesn't make him a character I really like. Ned wasn't a child psychologist, he tried to do his best, which wasn't perfect but still better than what some other people would've done. The tragedy of Theon was that he actually had a double loyalty because the Starks treated him well and he didn't hate them, but his father wasn't so horrible to him and he didn't hate him either. If his father had been a total monster to him (I did had the feeling that he could've been more loving and understanding and that he favoured the brothers while they were alive)Theon might've totally changed loyalties and remained with the Starks. If the Starks had treated him badly and he hadn't like them, and many other people in Winterfell, he could've turned on them without guilt. His guilt doesn't revive the miller's sons though.

I also find it strange sometimes how people find Jaime and Theon totally cool and Jon boring because he thinks about moral issues and tries to do the right thing. They forgive and understand very easily that Jaime threw Bran out of the window or Theon killed the two boys because it was necessary for them. The same people totally condemn Ned because he, out of necessity to defend his people took a hostage. Or 14 year-old Jon wasn't immediately nice to the other recruits, while he was also dealing with all his own emotional issues.

I also find it interesting how so many people can understand what the Ironborn did but don't understand what Ned did. Yes the ironborn do what they do out of economic necessity but so did Ned and others who wanted to stop them. Ironborn reave and steal, rape and catch thralls to boost economy and population. Northmen fight them because they need what they have produced to survive winter and they obviously don't want to be raped, enslaved or killed. Shouldn't they try and defend themselves? Reaving, stealing, killing out of necessity is OK, defending yourself out of necessity and taking a hostage is not? Yes Theon had emotional issues, I'm sure many thralls had emotional issues too and women who had to marry the guys who kidnapped them and murdered their families.

I don't think the Ironborn are monsters but neither are those who went to war against them. GRRM said somewhere that the villain is the heroe of the other side and it's true in this case.

Maybe that is why Dacey and Asha get on. They are both fighting for their own people in their own way.

[Free Northman]

I can feel sorry for Theon and undeerstand his childhood traumas but that doesn't make him a character I really like. Ned wasn't a child psychologist, he tried to do his best, which wasn't perfect but still better than what some other people would've done. The tragedy of Theon was that he actually had a double loyalty because the Starks treated him well and he didn't hate them, but his father wasn't so horrible to him and he didn't hate him either. If his father had been a total monster to him (I did had the feeling that he could've been more loving and understanding and that he favoured the brothers while they were alive)Theon might've totally changed loyalties and remained with the Starks. If the Starks had treated him badly and he hadn't like them, and many other people in Winterfell, he could've turned on them without guilt. His guilt doesn't revive the miller's sons though.

I also find it strange sometimes how people find Jaime and Theon totally cool and Jon boring because he thinks about moral issues and tries to do the right thing. They forgive and understand very easily that Jaime threw Bran out of the window or Theon killed the two boys because it was necessary for them. The same people totally condemn Ned because he, out of necessity to defend his people took a hostage. Or 14 year-old Jon wasn't immediately nice to the other recruits, while he was also dealing with all his own emotional issues.

I also find it interesting how so many people can understand what the Ironborn did but don't understand what Ned did. Yes the ironborn do what they do out of economic necessity but so did Ned and others who wanted to stop them. Ironborn reave and steal, rape and catch thralls to boost economy and population. Northmen fight them because they need what they have produced to survive winter and they obviously don't want to be raped, enslaved or killed. Shouldn't they try and defend themselves? Reaving, stealing, killing out of necessity is OK, defending yourself out of necessity and taking a hostage is not? Yes Theon had emotional issues, I'm sure many thralls had emotional issues too and women who had to marry the guys who kidnapped them and murdered their families.

I don't think the Ironborn are monsters but neither are those who went to war against them. GRRM said somewhere that the villain is the heroe of the other side and it's true in this case.

Maybe that is why Dacey and Asha get on. They are both fighting for their own people in their own way.

I understand the sentiments you are trying to convey.

I just take a harder stance. There is no comparison between those trying to make a living from their lands, and those who raid others to make a living.

If you live in a poor area, you either have fewer children until you have a population size that is sustainable by your resources, or your excess people have to migrate to other regions, where they will be subject to the rulers of THOSE lands.

If you go for the third option, which is stealing the resources of others, then you are a criminal who needs to be eradicated. Simple as that.

If the basis on which you sustain your oversized population is by pillaging your neigbours, well, then you are liable for some serious military action in retaliation. Therefore, the war on Balon was fully justified, and he should have been dealt with far more harshly than he was.

Protecting your realms from invaders is natural right. Pillaging the resources of other realms is not.

Reducing it to the level of individuals, it is your right to grow vegetables to feed your family. It is not your right to pillage the vegetables of your neighbour to feed your family.

It really is that simple. The pillager must be eradicated. And the Ironborn are a nation of pillagers. Their existence is defined by it.

[Winterfelon]

Bon ami. I couldnt agree more, to my delight. I wasnt holding out any hopes that anyone would get asoaif right, let alone Theon's character, but theyve outdone the author in this case (& in quite a few other areas, too). And although not the Theon in my head, I love Alfie Allen's portrayal. Hard. He's got the chops & he's going to carve the next season up to ribbons if they continue on this winning path.

It's not the foreshadowing so much as the emotional depth to the character. It shows how Theon would feel as a hostage (even if some of the scenes are a bit heavy-handed).

See: meme.

Agreed. In the books, Theon is introduced as 'a bit shifty' in Cat's view so I kinda thought something was up but didn't quite expect they way it actually turned out.

Now given what we know happens later, the extra Theon stuff in the first series should pay off big time - particularly if they mention his unmentionables (or lack thereof) in later series. :P

Very surprised and impressed with Alfie - hope he nails it in series 2. Hmm, this means we must have Ramsay in series 2 as well...

[David Selig]

Ned irrefutably was the catalyst for the ensuing 5 book shitstorm, I dont care how you paint it. Not Catlyn or Sansa (all you women-haters), & not Theon. Ned. He set everything in motion & the timer on the destruction of his family & house. His intentions dont matter. Bad things come just as easily from good intentions than not.

And thank god for it or we wouldnt have these great reads ;p

My comments about Ned, though passionate, didnt portray him as a monster. But they did throw onto him some of the same light that is flashed on Theon, and it turns out when you judge everyone in a harsh light, you find some grey patches. Ned did those things, Ned said those things. It's people's general hypocrisy & childish vindictiveness against anyone who so much a breathes on a Stark that causes the butthurt reactions of, ' Ned was not a monster, you monster!'

So true.

BTW, both Ned and Robb got involved in huge wars to avenge family members, and that lead to thousands of death, mostly smallfolk, who didn't care who was the King. Robb was too proud and selfish to really seek peace (his peace offer was unacceptable to the Lannisters and he knew it when he sent it) and wanted to avenge his father at all costs, which was one of the main reasons for all the atrocities during the War of the Five Kings. His forces reaved en masse in the Westerlands, he had no objections to Roose hiring the Brave Companions. But all this is usually conveniently forgotten and Robb is seen as a morally pure hero and Theon as a monster, even though Robb's actions lead to the deaths of far more innocents and his reasons were mostly selfish.

I wonder how would people look at Theon, if his father had sent him to the Westerlands instead, he had taken over Lannisport or Casterly Rock and had killed two innocent boys in similar circumstances.

[lady crackhead]

I also find it interesting how so many people can understand what the Ironborn did but don't understand what Ned did.

You immediately see-sawed to non-problem in this thread.. People , like myself, have been giving the counterbalance to the argument. Youre turning it back around to complain that the one side that you understand isnt given an extra consideration once again. Nobody said that they dont see why Ned did as he did. Theyre showing the other side that is conveniently forgotten by people, such as yourself, that take the opposite view as the only facts that matter.

If you live in a poor area, you either have fewer children until you have a population size that is sustainable by your resources,

This explains so much. About your posts & where youre coming from.

BTW, both Ned and Robb got involved in huge wars to avenge family members, and that lead to thousands of death, mostly smallfolk, who didn't care who was the King. Robb was too proud and selfish to really seek peace (his peace offer was unacceptable to the Lannisters and he knew it when he sent it) and wanted to avenge his father at all costs, which was one of the main reasons for all the atrocities during the War of the Five Kings. His forces reaved en masse in the Westerlands, he had no objections to Roose hiring the Brave Companions. But all this is usually conveniently forgotten and Robb is seen as a morally pure hero and Theon as a monster, even though Robb's actions lead to the deaths of far more innocents and his reasons were mostly selfish.

Even I forget all these things. Because guess what, I liked Robb ,too. And the other Starks. Who doesnt love Sean Bean? There isnt a man or woman alive.

Edited: Loving your posts, Selig.

[Winterfelon]

Ned irrefutably was the catalyst for the ensuing 5 book shitstorm, I dont care how you paint it. Not Catlyn or Sansa (all you women-haters), & not Theon. Ned. He set everything in motion & the timer on the destruction of his family & house. His intentions dont matter. Bad things come just as easily from good intentions than not.

And thank god for it or we wouldnt have these great reads ;p

Lol.

Surely there's a way to create likeable characters who don't do themselves over just by being honourable.

Ned = Optimus Prime. :P

E: Also, for me technically not Ned - really Robert. Ned was screwed the moment Robert asked him to be Hand. 'The Usurper' really dealt him a bum one!

[King_In_The_North]

So true.

BTW, both Ned and Robb got involved in huge wars to avenge family members, and that lead to thousands of death, mostly smallfolk, who didn't care who was the King. Robb was too proud and selfish to really seek peace (his peace offer was unacceptable to the Lannisters and he knew it when he sent it) and wanted to avenge his father at all costs, which was one of the main reasons for all the atrocities during the War of the Five Kings. His forces reaved en masse in the Westerlands, he had no objections to Roose hiring the Brave Companions. But all this is usually conveniently forgotten and Robb is seen as a morally pure hero and Theon as a monster, even though Robb's actions lead to the deaths of far more innocents and his reasons were mostly selfish.

You are forgetting that it were the LANNISTERS who pillaged and raped the Riverlands. Tywin explicitally gave the command to rape and pillage and murder the Riverlands to Kevan, Addam Marbrand and Gregor Clegane. And it is Robb's fault, of all people, that this happened because he refused to make peace with those who did it?! Why isn't it the Lannisters' fault for refusing to agree to his offer?

Also, as far as we know, Robb took gold and cattle FROM THE LORDS OF THE WESTERLANDS, with whom he was at war. Those herds and gold mines and probably the food he took, as well, was the property of the lords, and I really don't think he burned anyone's fields or rapes anyone so you can hardly compare Tywin to Robb in that regard. Also, I don't remember Robb giving his consent to Roose's use of the Bloody Mummers. Robb can't micromanage things that happen hundreds of miles away.

[Free Northman]

This explains so much. About your posts & where youre coming from.

Well, if you DON'T agree that being poor doesn't entitle you to the possessions of those who are less poor, then it explains much about where YOU are coming from as well.

[Miriamele]

You immediately see-sawed to non-problem in this thread.. People , like myself, have been giving the counterbalance to the argument. Youre turning it back around to complain that the one side that you understand isnt given an extra consideration once again. Nobody said that they dont see why Ned did as he did. Theyre showing the other side that is conveniently forgotten by people, such as yourself, that take the opposite view as the only facts that matter.

I don't hate Theon, actually started to really like him in ADWD, but honestly find it a bit too harsh when people say things that he was "kidnapped" but at the same time they say that the Ironborn only take thralls because it is an economic necessity so it's OK. Of course Theon suffered and developed emotional issues. Do you think the thralls don't? The northman took him hostage because it was their necessity to stop the attacks.

[David Selig]

You are forgetting that it were the LANNISTERS who pillaged and raped the Riverlands. Tywin explicitally gave the command to rape and pillage and murder the Riverlands to Kevan, Addam Marbrand and Gregor Clegane. And it is Robb's fault, of all people, that this happened because he refused to make peace with those who did it?! Why isn't it the Lannisters' fault for refusing to agree to his offer?

Also, as far as we know, Robb took gold and cattle FROM THE LORDS OF THE WESTERLANDS, with whom he was at war. Those herds and gold mines and probably the food he took, as well, was the property of the lords, and I really don't think he burned anyone's fields or rapes anyone so you can hardly compare Tywin to Robb in that regard. Also, I don't remember Robb giving his consent to Roose's use of the Bloody Mummers. Robb can't micromanage things that happen hundreds of miles away.

Sure, the Lannisters are more to blame, but Robb also has to take his fair share of the blame too. He could've pushed for peace much more, not just offer terms he knew the Lannisters wouldn't accept in a million years. He could've refused to become a King and thus would've had much better chance to get an alliance with Renly or Stannis and end the war more quickly. As for the reaving in the Westerlands:

Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they’d inflicted on the riverlands.

Do you really think this means Robb's forces were just taking herds and gold mines? And don't forget that as wee from Arya and Brienne's travels, the smallfolk in the Riverlands consider the wolves and lions to be both guilty of countless atrocities and don't see much difference between them.

[Kingslayer]

Also, as far as we know, Robb took gold and cattle FROM THE LORDS OF THE WESTERLANDS, with whom he was at war. Those herds and gold mines and probably the food he took, as well, was the property of the lords

... almost everything the smallfolk "own" is actually "the property of the lords."

[Ishuäl]

View Postkrakenhead, on 19 August 2011 - 12:42 PM, said:

This explains so much. About your posts & where youre coming from.

Well, if you DON'T agree that being poor doesn't entitle you to the possessions of those who are less poor, then it explains much about where YOU are coming from as well.

How did we get from Theon to Cold War again?

[Dolorous J]

I've always been a huge fan and sympathizer of Theon

What's wrong with you ?? Theon ?? :ack:

[Pale_Valkyrie]

Protecting your realms from invaders is natural right. Pillaging the resources of other realms is not.

Reducing it to the level of individuals, it is your right to grow vegetables to feed your family. It is not your right to pillage the vegetables of your neighbour to feed your family.

There is no such thing as a natural right, sorry. Human beings have no rights except those which we agree we have through social contract. It is not the responsibility of the ironborn or the dothraki to respect someone else's social contract. Do gazelles have natural rights to herd peaceably without lions killing them? Then neither do we.

You can say it's wrong if you like, but "natural rights" are a fantasy at best.

This explains so much. About your posts & where youre coming from.

I want to high-five you for this, Krakenhead.