(ADWD SPOILERS) Reek Chapters

[Tagganaro]

It's interestng that Balon didnt attack until Theon returned, Yes, because he was waiting for his son to come home first. They sent a crow to Balon to inform him that Theon was personally coming with a (secret) request from (king-to-be)Robb. So that set the wheels in motion for Balon. The fact that his son the hostage was finally coming home to him & out of danger.

And beyond that, Robb wouldnt have killed a sworn man a\in the middle of a war; Im sure Balon knew this too.

First of all, you cant see the basic psychological reasoning behind Theon's feelings? He was ripped from his family at 9yrs old to live with the guy who attacked his family in which his brothers were killed & defeated (humiliated) his father.

And although treated well -like MOST hostages are supposed to be treated, he was still set aside & not given any emotional support for the rest of his young life. He had no one who really cared about him, no affection like you would have from a parent. No identification with or even approval of who he was & where he was from. In fact no more touchstones to the family, culture, & life he lived before coming to Winterfell. Its not like Theon was ever allowed to go home for visits, because of the danger that they would seize him & keep him, thus losing the deterrent for Balon to pick up weapons again. Has anyone ever tried to imagine what it would be like if they at 9 went trough this? NO. I never see that alluded t, because of the basic bias that the Starks & Ned were just so dreamy~! No one is asking you to cry a river over his treatement, but come on, the basic psychological facts of this time at Winterfell would add up to Theon feeling alienated & looking for a warmth & acceptance that he never received. Jon only got a taste of the kind of treatment Theon did (without the added trauma that Theon had of the war, deaths, & being taken from his family & home) and no one begrudges him his incrediblely large chip on his shoulder. Only Cat kept Jon at arms length; Ned & the rest loved him & treated him as a son & brother. Theon only had the affection of Robb, a much younger boy. He would have been only 5 when Theon was brought to Winterfell as a hostage. And that age difference in development didnt get smaller until probably the last year or two of their lives at Winterfell. Theon was of a older brother to Robb. Robb didnt impact Theon as much as Theon impacted Robb.

What person would treat a hostage better than Ned did? A lot, probably.

Sitting at the dais had nothing to do with Ned liking Theon & everything to do with class rank. Theon was a 'lording'.

Taking Winterfell wasnt so much about impressing Balon as it was ripping up the life that he was forced to lead & overcoming the humiliation of being a hostage. A hostage is a hostage. A symbol of shame, humiliation & powerlessness. What more could you do to negate your forced powerlessness than become master of your own 'house', Winterfell. He's proving himself to both his father & his 'would-be'father figure, Ned.

King Robert would have treated Theon well? haha, he would have had him killed in a second. I'm sure that's probably why Ned took him in the first place.

And we should feel bad for Theon? Why? Because his dad was a total prick who couldn't help himself from raping and murdering innocent people all the time and who couldn't stop for one second and enjoy what he already had. If Ned was this monster you make him out to be, I guarantee you the whole Greyjoy family would be annihilated. Theon would have been treated like total crap.

And what the heck is Ned supposed to do with Theon to satisfy your notion of good treatment for a hostage? Make him his surrogate son? He actually tried to do that but Theon rejected him. Again, he couldn't possibly treat Theon any better. Theon realizes this when he returns to Winterfell with some new perspective on life. He was incapable of realizing this because he too was an arrogant, entitled prick like Balon was for most of his life until the horrors Ramsay Bolton put him through.

[Alexia]

I have no doubt that Ned would have killed Theon if need be. That was the entire point of having him as a hostage. GRRM did a really interesting little video interview (it is up on YouTube) about the difference between a hostage and a ward, and how the wardship is a polite fiction for hostages.

Ned might not treat his hostages like the Lannisters treat theirs, but he still removed a child from his family, culture, and religious upbringing and held him under threat of his life to force his parents to behave the way that Ned wanted.

[Bran the Builder]

I have always liked theon's character more than most. I think his POV in ADWD was by far my favorite to read. You never knew what was going to happen next for Theon personally and for the North as a whole.

[Free Northman]

It remains amazing how no matter what the merits of the situation, you will always find people who just want to buck the trend for the hell of it.

Justifying Theon's actions, or picking as your forum name the symbol of the avowed reavers, pillagers, rapers and murderers of Westeros is one such example.

Honestly, the Krakens and their entire society don't have a single redeemable quality - their entire reason for living is to murder, rape and pillage the resources that other peoples have built up through toil and sweat and blood.

How people identify with Victarrion, Theon or even Asha is beyond me. And yet clearly there are such people, even in this forum.

I have to ask the question: What strange worldview drives such people?

The Iron Men are no better than Somali pirates or violent criminals who carjack people at intersections and then rape and murder them before driving off in their stolen SUV's.

Only their entire nation is founded on this credo. How can anyone identify with them unless you are willing to overlook this massive flaw in their collective worldview?

[Ishuäl]

It remains amazing how no matter what the merits of the situation, you will always find people who just want to buck the trend for the hell of it.

Justifying Theon's actions, or picking as your forum name the symbol of the avowed reavers, pillagers, rapers and murderers of Westeros is one such example.

Honestly, the Krakens and their entire society don't have a single redeemable quality - their entire reason for living is to murder, rape and pillage the resources that other peoples have built up through toil and sweat and blood.

How people identify with Victarrion, Theon or even Asha is beyond me. And yet clearly there are such people, even in this forum.

I have to ask the question: What strange worldview drives such people?

The Iron Men are no better than Somali pirates or violent criminals who carjack people at intersections and then rape and murder them before driving off in their stolen SUV's.

Only their entire nation is founded on this credo. How can anyone identify with them unless you are willing to overlook this massive flaw in their collective worldview?

And who are you, the pround lord said, that I must bow so low...

I mean no offense, but this seems rather harsh and judgmental. Who is to say that your moral compass is the right one? Ultimately, it boils down to different people making different choices for different reasons. I do not see how people can just refuse to take other points of view, especially with Martin's fiction. There is no moral black and white in Westeros, just as there is none here. In my opinion, he added begrudgingly.

[Free Northman]

And who are you, the pround lord said, that I must bow so low...

I mean no offense, but this seems rather harsh and judgmental. Who is to say that your moral compass is the right one? Ultimately, it boils down to different people making different choices for different reasons. I do not see how people can just refuse to take other points of view, especially with Martin's fiction. There is no moral black and white in Westeros, just as there is none here. In my opinion, he added begrudgingly.

I don't understand this point of view. I really don't. Are you saying that it is not a given that to murder, rape and pillage is evil?

Are you saying that there is some moral ambiguity in landing your ships on the shores of a peaceful village, rampaging into the midst of families at their dinner tables and smashing axes into the skulls of fathers trying to protect their little children, and raping the mothers before taking them off as thralls?

Is there some possibility that this is NOT an abomination?

Because I'm sorry, I just cannot agree with you if that's what you are saying.

If anyone tries to justify such actions by saying it is merely a result of the different perspective of life held by the Iron Men, well, then I find your worldview completely foreign.

Moral relativism is one thing, but trying to "relativize" the murder and rape of innocents is not an intellectual effort, it is an attempt to deny reality.

[Ishuäl]

As much as I'd love to get a philosophical discussion going with you, I think it would stray too far from this topic :)

Let me just add this though: One point I always make is that while in our society, murder is generally deemed evil, there were (are!) others where such an act is considered justified in certain cases. Consider, for example, how many countries still know the death penalty. I get that you are talking about innocents here and you may see this differently, all I'm saying is that, in my opinion, given the educational, emotional, cultural and biological background, we would not act differently, and I've studied too much history to pretend otherwise. So from this point of view, I get how people can feel for characters whose deeds may, in our eyes, be wrong. Again, I apologise for the at best loose connection to the main discussion here.

[Sivin]

Whore =/= person?!

Doesn't matter if she sold sex, her trust and companionship were supposed to be genuine. Tyrion sacrificed for her - if she wasn't willing to do the same she should have gone her seperate way. Tyrion would've gotten over it.

You are paying her to spend time with you. She doesn't do it out of kindness or genuine affection.

1+1= DON'T FUCKING TRUST HER!

[Sivin]

King Robert would have treated Theon well? haha, he would have had him killed in a second. I'm sure that's probably why Ned took him in the first place.

And we should feel bad for Theon? Why? Because his dad was a total prick who couldn't help himself from raping and murdering innocent people all the time and who couldn't stop for one second and enjoy what he already had. If Ned was this monster you make him out to be, I guarantee you the whole Greyjoy family would be annihilated. Theon would have been treated like total crap.

And what the heck is Ned supposed to do with Theon to satisfy your notion of good treatment for a hostage? Make him his surrogate son? He actually tried to do that but Theon rejected him. Again, he couldn't possibly treat Theon any better. Theon realizes this when he returns to Winterfell with some new perspective on life. He was incapable of realizing this because he too was an arrogant, entitled prick like Balon was for most of his life until the horrors Ramsay Bolton put him through.

I spent a year in a foster home from the age of 5 to 6 years old. Let me tell you, there is no replacing having true loving people around you. And even the Greyjoys loved Theon in their own way.

Fortunately for me, my mom kicked some legal ass and got me back after only a year... Who rescued Theon?

It remains amazing how no matter what the merits of the situation, you will always find people who just want to buck the trend for the hell of it.

Justifying Theon's actions, or picking as your forum name the symbol of the avowed reavers, pillagers, rapers and murderers of Westeros is one such example.

Honestly, the Krakens and their entire society don't have a single redeemable quality - their entire reason for living is to murder, rape and pillage the resources that other peoples have built up through toil and sweat and blood.

How people identify with Victarrion, Theon or even Asha is beyond me. And yet clearly there are such people, even in this forum.

I have to ask the question: What strange worldview drives such people?

The Iron Men are no better than Somali pirates or violent criminals who carjack people at intersections and then rape and murder them before driving off in their stolen SUV's.

Only their entire nation is founded on this credo. How can anyone identify with them unless you are willing to overlook this massive flaw in their collective worldview?

Why do I relate to Theon?

First, read above.

Second, I also have a douchebag father who was more concerned about himself than he was for me as a child.

There, now you all know more about me than you should.

Am I allowed to like a certain fictional character now? :fencing:

[Zeromus]

I don't understand this point of view. I really don't. Are you saying that it is not a given that to murder, rape and pillage is evil?

Are you saying that there is some moral ambiguity in landing your ships on the shores of a peaceful village, rampaging into the midst of families at their dinner tables and smashing axes into the skulls of fathers trying to protect their little children, and raping the mothers before taking them off as thralls?

Is there some possibility that this is NOT an abomination?

Because I'm sorry, I just cannot agree with you if that's what you are saying.

If anyone tries to justify such actions by saying it is merely a result of the different perspective of life held by the Iron Men, well, then I find your worldview completely foreign.

Moral relativism is one thing, but trying to "relativize" the murder and rape of innocents is not an intellectual effort, it is an attempt to deny reality.

Actions are only "evil" in ASoIaF world if they are done by characters without witty dialogue.

[Ishuäl]

Actions are only "evil" in ASoIaF world if they are done by characters without witty dialogue.

That is my quote of the day.

[LordBloodraven]

I have no doubt that Ned would have killed Theon if need be. That was the entire point of having him as a hostage. GRRM did a really interesting little video interview (it is up on YouTube) about the difference between a hostage and a ward, and how the wardship is a polite fiction for hostages.

Ned might not treat his hostages like the Lannisters treat theirs, but he still removed a child from his family, culture, and religious upbringing and held him under threat of his life to force his parents to behave the way that Ned wanted.

You know I still don't understand how one can blame Ned Stark for taking Theon as a hostage. I mean, Balon Greyjoy and the ironborn love the Old Way, which is reaving the coasts, plundering the farms, raping or taking the women and keeping young boys as thralls.How Ned is supposed to make that stop, if these ironborn are plundering the Stony Shore. Plus, they started a rebellion that they couldn't win just because a new dynasty emerged. Robert Baratheon could have killed the Greyjoys and put another dynasty to reign in the Iron Islands, like Aegon the Conqueror did with the Hoares. He was lenient enough to spare them and take their young son as a hostage. The fact is that Theon's tragedy repose solely on his father, on his people and on their culture. They are known for failed rebellions, as Maester Luwin said it. When he went back to the Iron Islands, his father didn't give a damn about him and caused him again to start stupid actions, like holding to Winterfell after it was certain that he couldn't and faking the death of Bran and Rickon. You can't blame Ned for that, if the ironborn would behave only if their little prince's life would be at risk

[LordBloodraven]

And who are you, the pround lord said, that I must bow so low...

I mean no offense, but this seems rather harsh and judgmental. Who is to say that your moral compass is the right one? Ultimately, it boils down to different people making different choices for different reasons. I do not see how people can just refuse to take other points of view, especially with Martin's fiction. There is no moral black and white in Westeros, just as there is none here. In my opinion, he added begrudgingly.

Theon could have been treated like the Ironborn would have, to a northern hostage. Maybe he was viewed as a thrall, he wouldn't have identity problems, and be a proud northman (like Qarl the Thrall).

[Marcus Cicero]

I think that Theon is the main contributor to the downfall of House Stark. The capture of Winterfell and the false execution of Bran and Rickon had enormous consequences as Catelyn's liberation of Jaime and indirectly Robb's marriage with Jeyne Westerling. IIRC, Roose said so in ADWD, he told Theon that he was the one who brought the downfall of the Starks. I don't think that the Red Wedding would have happened if Theon didn't behave like the prick he was in ACOK. I mean, Tywin would never have plotted the massacre with the Freys (who besides Stannis defeat, would be as loyal as before) and Roose wouldn't be as bold as he was. Jaime would be still rotting in Riverrun and maybe even Arya and Sansa would be reunited with their families. That's why I hate Theon, and curiously GRRM made me feel bad about Reek in ADWD

Yeah, he is the one of the main factors. Roose essentially acknowledges this during their chat, and thanks him for it. A great scene.

Hating Theon for the Starks' downfall is understandable, but I find myself able to forgive his actions when I detach myself from the Stark bias that GRRM has brainwashed into every reader. He makes some rash decisions, but his more horrible actions, such as killing the peasant kids, were sort of born out of necessity. From the standpoint of holding Winterfell, he had to look strong, and letting everyone know that the heir is out there running around would not have helped his cause. Now, his cause, that of furthering his position within House Greyjoy, wasn't exactly just, but it was all very understandable given the set of circumstances that he's presented with throughout his life. He has an extremely human arc in both ACOK and ADWD.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I spent a year in a foster home from the age of 5 to 6 years old. Let me tell you, there is no replacing having true loving people around you. And even the Greyjoys loved Theon in their own way.

Do they? Why does their way involve slapping him, belittling him, and making him feel rejected? Don't you think they had largely written him off? That's right: Balon wanted to reave and rape up and down the coast with no consequences. Those are acts of war, committed chronically and unrepentantly, and as their liege, Ned is morally obligated to put a stop to his people being treated that way. Instead of just killing his entire family or taking them as slaves (Asha would have been raped and taken as a thrall), which is what the Iron Born would have done, Ned spares Balon and only takes Theon hostage. While Theon is a hostage, he is treated so well that, in his own recollections, he thinks of the Stark children as his siblings. Hmmm. So who's the villain in this story?

Why is it so easy to dismiss ALL the evidence we're given that Ned Stark would never kill a child? Not everyone kills their hostages. Dany doesn't. Ned wouldn't. He is willing to have a major falling out with the king over it TWICE, even when threatened with death. So really, there is no reason to think he would have gone against his moral code.

Second, I also have a douchebag father who was more concerned about himself than he was for me as a child.

There, now you all know more about me than you should.

Am I allowed to like a certain fictional character now? :fencing:

They why make the foster family, who could have treated Theon with hostility or actively victimized him, the villains, ignoring the crimes of the real family? Lemme put it to you this way: which noble house would you rather have been a "hostage" to in Westeros beside the Starks? Baratheons? Think Cersei would treat you like a ward? Bolton? If you don't like a full coat of skin. Frey? Yes, they are a friendly lot, esp. to guests. Lannisters? They don't even treat their own kids well. Arryn? I'm afraid of heights.

I also reject the idea that Theon killed the miller's boys out of necessity. It was vanity and insecurity. He could have avoided the whole thing by helping Robb, and he thinks that over and over. He acknowledges his own poor judgment even as you guys are defending it.

[Frakkin Kraken]

I've been reading this thread for awhile and haven't spoken out yet, but why on earth should I feel compelled to justify which characters I like, particularly when the whole thread is about Theon's arc? I like characters based on how interesting they are to read about, and the value of their arcs story-wise, not on how "good" they are as people. Hence why Theon has been one of my favorites from Day One and I was praying for Catelyn to die since about her second chapter, and all she did was pray in septs, whine, and whine in septs while praying. (Of course, then she did die and became even worse, but that's another story.)

The point is, I think it's goofy to judge people based on which culture they come from, in real life and in fiction. If there is value in someone's arc, that means they're a good character. Not whether they have ever done something that you consider evil.

tl;dr: maybe if someone likes a character that you don't, they're looking for something else in the narrative than you are.

[David Selig]

Theon was 10 years old when he first came to Winterfell, and was 19 at the start of AGOT. Ned expected the seven year old Bran to watch executions, and the 3 year old Rickon to take care of a direwolf and he was OK with letting the 14 year old Jon decide his whole future by going to the Wall. 12 year old boys in Westeros take part in battles and are killed often. Given all that, it's pretty clear to me that for the bigger part of his stay at Winterfell Ned didn't consider Theon a child and would've had no problem killing him.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Theon was 10 years old when he first came to Winterfell, and was 19 at the start of AGOT. Ned expected the seven year old Bran to watch executions, and the 3 year old Rickon to take care of a direwolf and he was OK with letting the 14 year old Jon decide his whole future by going to the Wall. 12 year old boys in Westeros take part in battles and are killed often. Given all that, it's pretty clear to me that for the bigger part of his stay at Winterfell Ned didn't consider Theon a child and would've had no problem killing him.

I can grant your point somewhat. By the time Theon was in his mid-teens, it gets less like killing a child. Maybe it is my personal bias that I don't think Ned would have done it. I still think that's the house I'd prefer to be hostage in, all things considered, and that the blame for Theon being a hostage rests solely on Balon.

As for this "judging other people's cultures" thing: it's not even about that. Objectively speaking, no liege lord would tolerate what the Iron Born did to the coastal people if they had the means to end it. Can we at least state that? It was intolerable. The question is, what level of response is appropriate? You don't like taking hostages, even though is an accepted practice in cultures throughout this world. Apparently what should have been done is the Greyjoys should have been exterminated, from the Starks' POV, considering the outcome of letting them live. Is that a better way of looking at it? Seems like those defending the Greyjoy's way of life are just as quick to judge Ned's. So are we judging people or not?

[Tagganaro]

I've been reading this thread for awhile and haven't spoken out yet, but why on earth should I feel compelled to justify which characters I like, particularly when the whole thread is about Theon's arc? I like characters based on how interesting they are to read about, and the value of their arcs story-wise, not on how "good" they are as people. Hence why Theon has been one of my favorites from Day One and I was praying for Catelyn to die since about her second chapter, and all she did was pray in septs, whine, and whine in septs while praying. (Of course, then she did die and became even worse, but that's another story.)

The point is, I think it's goofy to judge people based on which culture they come from, in real life and in fiction. If there is value in someone's arc, that means they're a good character. Not whether they have ever done something that you consider evil.

tl;dr: maybe if someone likes a character that you don't, they're looking for something else in the narrative than you are.

There's value in everyones arc of course. That's why it's a story. I love Theon/Reeks arc, and I love Victarion's arc as well. That doesn't mean I need to somehow find a way to justify what is for the most part disgusting behavior on Theon's part. I'm sure he has reasons for acting the way he does, that's what a character is. I agree that his reasons for disliking the Starks are clear and understandable.

But to somehow turn it around like Ned is in the wrong at all and its his fault for any of Theon's behavior is absolutely absurd. The one to blame for Theon is Balon, and Theon himself. Not Ned for doing what he had to do to stop Balon from raping and killing everyone, nor for taking a hostage/ward to try and prevent him from doing so again. As I've said, what more could Theon want from Ned than the way Ned treated him as a hostage? He was allowed to sit at the highest table, he became great friends with Robb the heir, and for the most part was awarded just as good if not better treatment than Jon Snow.

But instead Ned should marry him off to his 10 year old child right off the bat? Or he should treat him just as good as his own sons? He pretty much did do that yet people are still hating on him.

[Sivin]

Do they? Why does their way involve slapping him, belittling him, and making him feel rejected? Don't you think they had largely written him off? That's right: Balon wanted to reave and rape up and down the coast with no consequences. Those are acts of war, committed chronically and unrepentantly, and as their liege, Ned is morally obligated to put a stop to his people being treated that way. Instead of just killing his entire family or taking them as slaves (Asha would have been raped and taken as a thrall), which is what the Iron Born would have done, Ned spares Balon and only takes Theon hostage. While Theon is a hostage, he is treated so well that, in his own recollections, he thinks of the Stark children as his siblings. Hmmm. So who's the villain in this story?

I don't think that they hated him. He'd been gone a long time, and they (Balon especially) had no idea how to handle him and did so in a reprehensible manner because of how foreign he acted. But before he was dragged away by Ned and Robert, he mentions how close he was to the people of Pyke. Also, what about his mother? She wept for him every day for 10 years...

They why make the foster family, who could have treated Theon with hostility or actively victimized him, the villains, ignoring the crimes of the real family?

I'm not ignoring the crimes of his real family. Like I said, he has a douchy father who got him into the mess in the first place, which has a psychological effect on Theon. Also, he was taken away from the people who loved him, and Balon Greyjoy isn't necessarily one of them. Balon isn't the only person in the Iron Islands.

Lemme put it to you this way: which noble house would you rather have been a "hostage" to in Westeros beside the Starks? Baratheons? Think Cersei would treat you like a ward? Bolton? If you don't like a full coat of skin. Frey? Yes, they are a friendly lot, esp. to guests. Lannisters? They don't even treat their own kids well. Arryn? I'm afraid of heights.

Umm... How about the option where I don't get taken away from my family and am caused serious emotional distress...

I'm not trying to say that the Starks were the worst people on earth to Theon, and I'm not trying to say that Ned took the wrong route with Theon. What I'm trying to get across here is that Theon was suffering from a lot of psychological pressure for a very long time. And maybe you shouldn't condemn him for the actions he took while trying to find acceptance in a world where he was handicapped from the age 9.

I understand why he might not be you're favorite character, but while good intentions aren't a get-out-of-jail free card, he recognizes the mistakes he made and wants to grow as a person. And he's done no worse than virtually every other person in this series. Except screw over everyone's favorite family IN A WAR! And for that, not only does he apparently deserve to be tortured and killed, it's reprehensible for someone to like him...

As for how he destroyed the Starks. Everyone's favorite character, you know that Tyrion Lannister guy, is as much to blame for the death of the Starks as anyone else. Rob lost (at the very least) the Riverlands the moment that Tyrion defeated/held off Stannis Baratheon at Kingslanding.

Let me say this, Rob Stark was my favorite character in the ENTIRE series. And I don't hate Theon, not even a little bit, when I have just as much cause to do so as all the other Stark-Lovers out there.

That's my position. :fencing: