(ADWD SPOILERS) Reek Chapters

[Knight of Ashes]

Thank you. It was the rule (both in their world & in ours). Theon didnt owe his captors anything. And his allegiance to the place & people he was being held hostage as would never have taken precedence over his blood.

That does bring up the question as to whether Theon had to go to war with the Starks against the Lannisters. I just took it for granted that he was under some sort of obligation to but Lady Dustin made note of this act as a sign that Theon cared for the Starks, which kinda tells me that Theon had the choice of staying at Winterfell. So riding south with Robb, fighting beside him at Whispering Wood and Riverrun would 'cause an impression to outsiders (such as Lady Dustin) that he was on the Starks' side.

I do believe that at the time, Theon thought so too. So it's reasonable that there would be a certain amount of expectation from him from the Starks and their supporters as to his allegiances.

[rue721]

Theon, in a clear mind & voice says that Reek is gone & will not be back. He’s recovered his strength of mind & he;s recovered himself. Nothing else from then on shows anything in opposition to this. He is THEON. Fuck Reek,. AND even before that, he wants to make that stupid washerwoman scream his name: THEON.

Theon doesn't want to feel like "Reek," but like you've said -- that wasn't a different person who was "Reek." There's no split personality. Just because a part of you is weak or scared doesn't mean that you can throw it away -- or even that you should. It's as much a part of you as any other part, and can be just as valuable.

In reality, it was the part of Theon called "Reek" that allowed Theon to survive -- and saved the part called "Theon," too. Now, maybe the part of Theon that he calls "Theon" will make him feel stronger and bolder in these new circumstances away from the Boltons. But it's all part of being one person living one continuous life. Reek and Theon aren't *actually* distinct people and one of them can't just vanish because that would be convenient.

I don't think Theon will begin wandering the countryside telling people his name is Reek or whatever. But I think who he was as "Reek" can't disappear, in the same way who he was as the Stark's ward hasn't disappeared, or who he is now, after escaping the Boltons, won't disappear. He may have acted very differently in all those circumstances, but he was always *him* and he always will be. I think pretending he's brand-new and "Reek" never happened would actually make him more fragile than if he just deals with the fact that it was *him* going through those things, and it was *him* who got through them and escaped, and it is *him* who is taking charge now. Of course, your mileage will vary.

And that's not to say that if he decides to pretend Reek is some separate person who is now dead, some kind of catastrophe will necessarily take place -- just that I think he would be creating a kind of Achilles' Heel for himself if he decided to do things that way. Which could cause problems later, or could cause insidious problems forever. Imo, Tyrion did basically the same thing with his looks -- pretended like they were totally separate from who he was inside, tried to deny ownership of them -- and has suffered the repercussions of that. Again, I bring up that character just to show -- I don't think it's some batshit horrible path for Theon to go on, to deny any ownership over Reek, I just think it's ultimately a mistake and would likely become an exploitable weakness. And I think that could also make him feel *more* tormented and for him to make more mistakes than just accepting that Reek is him and Theon is him, too.

Which is what I think he'll likely do, just because he can't afford to create weaknesses for himself now -- he's about to enter a war.

[Civfan]

The teeth thing bothered me most. I wish it had been like, see a dentist lose a few but he's still hawt. :P

When I first started his chapter I was pretty pissed because Theon HAD been my favourite character. And now he's, what, gollum?? But as I read on his chapters were some of the best, and the ending was just amazing.

If he could truly recover physically (and somewhat, mentally) I'd prefer it. But toes and penises don't grow back, sadly. :( Maybe Melisandre can, ahem, MAKEHIMAMAN.

[lady crackhead]

Reek and Theon aren't *actually* distinct people and one of them can't just vanish because that would be convenient.

Maybe youre being simple & Im overshooting your posts...but youve been talking about Theon & Reek as separate entities. In the quote above, you say they are separate & then you go on to say "one of them cant just vanish..."

Why dont you just say that Theon was humbled & knows his limits? So much clearer and cleaner.

'Reek', or Theon as Reek, absolutely can vanish once Theon has discarded him. And Theon basically has vanquished himself as Reek on his own in the last few chapters of his story. Reek was what Theon had to pretend to be to live, but Theon never lost complete sense of himself. Ramsay forced Theon to pretend to & behave as Reek through torture. Theon never believed that he was being tortured for something he did or that he deserved it. He made himself say it to keep in the Reek persona as a survival mechanism, but he never bought it, and that is why his sense of self was able to come back so strongly. Everyone knows pain makes you weak. So he explored his vulnerable side. Deeper; because Theon always knew he had one. That is what his constructed arrogant, dickish attitude was protecting. Of course now he isnt the same person he was before; not completely, but he's more of the old Theon than he is anything Reek. After a brief recovery period, I think the only way I see him really changing from his stay with Ramsay is in making him angrier & more vengeful. And wiser.

Anyway the point is, he can throw all the blame for his torture at Ramsay's feet & not internalize it once he's stepped out of it. It was out of his hands, what was done to him & what he was made to do. And also his propensity to blame is finally working for a positive outcome.

That does bring up the question as to whether Theon had to go to war with the Starks against the Lannisters. I just took it for granted that he was under some sort of obligation to but Lady Dustin made note of this act as a sign that Theon cared for the Starks, which kinda tells me that Theon had the choice of staying at Winterfell. So riding south with Robb, fighting beside him at Whispering Wood and Riverrun would 'cause an impression to outsiders (such as Lady Dustin) that he was on the Starks' side.

It wasnt an impression, it was the truth. More like, he was on Robb's side. And I always just assumed he wanted to go to war out of sheer excitement, like boys that age do. Im sure he would have felt frustrated, and girly, if he stayed behind with the two young Stark kids.

As for perceived obligations... it would have been blind & really stupid for the northmen to trust him. In reality, they would have ordered him out of the tent or any sensitive position. He was still a hostage, & Balon's rebellion was only a decade ago. Robb & his handlers were extraordinarily dumb about Theon.

Again, he owed none of them a thing. He owed himself everything, and he didnt take anything, initially. He did return to his father with Robb's message & every intention of standing by him. but his dad had other plans. At that point, you go with your blood. Cat knew it & Robb wouldnt listen to her.

and now he's what, a gollum??

I find this really disgusting on a few levels.

1)That Martin would take one of his most complex characters & fuck him up into a 2) trite fantasy token.

Im pretty sick of Martin stuffing his favorite characters into the books. That's in itself is a hair's breadth from marysuing. But mostly, its unoriginal & smacks of plagarism.

[rue721]

In the quote above, you say they are separate & then you go on to say "one of them cant just vanish..."

Why dont you just say that Theon was humbled & knows his limits? So much clearer and cleaner.

My point was/is that within Theon are parts of himself, some of which he currently values, which he calls "Theon," and some of which he currently despises, which he calls "Reek." Theon himself has different names for himself when different parts of his personality come to the fore, so it seemed simpler to me to use those names -- I'm sorry if that ended up being confusing. Anyway, even though right now Theon might have to shun the "Reek" parts in order to build up an identity he feels safe/powerful/happy/connected within (which he calls "Theon"), I think it's dangerous and sad and a waste if he decides to shun those "Reek" parts forever. Because he *is* Reek, for better or worse, just like he's Theon, just as he's the Stark ward, etc.

he's more of the old Theon than he is anything Reek.

On the one hand, since Theon was basically powerless when he was with Ramsey, it's hard to see how much of the events in his life during that time were at all representative of anything about him. But on the other hand, it was only Theon's own grit and, I don't know, basic resilience, that kept him alive at all. Or allowed him to care about Jeyne. Or told him to trust "Able" and his "washerwomen" (literally, the woods called out "Theon," lol). Or allowed him to try/succeed in rescuing Jeyne (also almost literally -- he told himself in the POV narrative that Theon would have tried to rescue Jeyne).**

I think it's more about seeing the "Theon" in "Reek" than it is about finding the "Reek" in "Theon," if that makes sense? If Theon's spirit is a kind of string that runs through his life, I think a way of dealing with what happened when he was with Ramsey is by seeing how that string has run strong since he was born, through his life with the Starks, through that time as "Reek," and up through today -- and it'll travel to even better circumstances eventually, too. Anyway, that's how I conceptualize it.

Anyway the point is, he can throw all the blame for his torture at Ramsay's feet & not internalize it once he's stepped out of it. It was out of his hands, what was done to him & what he was made to do. And also his propensity to blame is finally working for a positive outcome.

In theory, I think that would be a great thing for him to do. Maybe where we differ is that I don't really believe that a person *can* forget things or stop them from affecting him inside, even if he very much wants to. So I think the best alternative is to find a way to incorporate "Reek" into Theon in general. If he doesn't, I think he'll have to expend so much mental energy convincing himself that he's nothing like "Reek" and that "Reek" is separate from him, etc, that it'll actually make those memories and those parts of himself *more* important/powerful/scary than they need to be.

I think the only way I see him really changing from his stay with Ramsay is in making him angrier & more vengeful. And wiser.

Honestly, I don't know. I agree that pain is damaging to a person, and so I also don't really think Theon will be tons of great after-affects from having been tortured by Ramsey (lol). But what interests me are the more subtle changes. Will Theon have more or less trouble disciplining his men? Will Theon be more or less ambitious? Will the same things push Theon's buttons as before? What will Theon's sense of humor be like now, what kinds of jokes will he make? Will he like the same kind of woman?

I'm also interested in what goes on with his face and body as they heal because, yes, I watch Discovery Health and I think that's interesting. How are they going to fix his teeth? They're going to have to do something, because his teeth are painful to him. Can they make dentures? Will they just pull the broken teeth but put nothing in their place? Do they have some kind of false-teeth thing that they could make for *just* the missing spots, like a kind of cement-paste that they could put between the missing teeth, at least in the back so he can chew? And yes, I know other people complain about the minutia that GRRM likes to include -- the descriptions of what people are wearing or eating or what random aches and pains they have -- but personally, I love that stuff. I also wonder if they could make use of the fact that he's missing fingers. I'm wondering if there could be some special kind of weapon that nobody else could pick up, because you can only fit three fingers into the handle/glove. Just a thought. Or maybe he could make some kind of glove that holds daggers in the place of those fingers. Like that girl's machine-gun leg in "Grindhouse." Also just a thought. How many people know who he actually is, by the way? He looks nothing like his old self, it seems like. Is there some way to use him as a spy? Would he be mentally prepared to do something like that anyway?

**The one thing I am still thinking over in terms of Reek being a version of Theon is getting the Ironborn men to betray themselves. How must that have felt, and how did that affect Theon's thoughts on the Red Wedding (I mean in terms of comparing the two betrayals). How culpable is Theon for leading those men to their deaths?

[lady crackhead]

Your analysis is so intimate & on such a level as we might as well be speculating on what type of bowel movement he'll be having at any given point in time :worried: Im just trying to keep to the shallower stuff and as how he might broadly be portrayed in the book.

My point was/is that within Theon are parts of himself, some of which he currently values, which he calls "Theon," and some of which he currently despises, which he calls "Reek." Theon himself has different names for himself when different parts of his personality come to the fore

Does he? Because I thought that by the time he is himself again, he is no longer referring to himself as Reek. And what “parts” of him does he describe as “Reek”, in this time frame? It's plainly understandable why he calls himself Reek before this point in time.

I think it's dangerous and sad and a waste if he decides to shun those "Reek" parts forever. Because he *is* Reek, for better or worse, just like he's Theon, just as he's the Stark ward, etc

Again, what are you thinking these “Reek parts” are, by the end of his story? And how would it be “sad” or “dangerous” to ignore whatever these so-called parts are?

Theon was made a hostage. Theon was made to do things under torture. Theon didnt have a choice in either. He's no more a hostage than he is a torture victim, anymore. He's stepped out of both those roles. He's accepted certain things about his hostage/ward time, he's made some peace with it.

As a victim of torture, though, the only thing he can take from that experience, as pertaining to himself & cause+effect, is that he trusted the wrong person, for the wrong reasons. He doesnt have any reason to feel cowed & made to feel like shit now, anymore than a rape victim would. He might feel ashamed for what he was made to do, but he doesnt own it. At the end of his story, he cant allow himself to feel anger at Ramsay, but you can see a general anger building. Actually, in the last couple of chapters. If he gets his health back, I can see him getting much angrier in response. Whether they took his dick off or not.

On the one hand, since Theon was basically powerless when he was with Ramsey, it's hard to see how much of the events in his life during that time were at all representative of anything about him. But on the other hand, it was only Theon's own grit and, I don't know, basic resilience, that kept him alive at all.

Theyre both on the same hand. Theon behaved like Reek to survive. So all the things are representative of Theon. Are you trying to say that Theon acted less than acceptably as Reek? When youre pushed down to the level he was, you either do what you do to survive or you give up. I dont think anyone can predict which way theyd really react until theyre in that position.

Or allowed him to try/succeed in rescuing Jeyne (also almost literally -- he told himself in the POV narrative that Theon would have tried to rescue Jeyne).**

Old Theon might have, but probably not. Old Theon would have judged it to be suicidal for Theon,(& for Jeynem too), & he would have been right. So call him selfish, but I think that is the wise decision & the one that you'd pick if you valued your life. I also have qualms about the romantic notion that he saved Jeyne. He was saving his own skin; saving Jeyne was an integral part of the plan that he needed to go along with to save his own ass. He jumped only because they had no where else to go before being shot through with arrows. Who wouldnt jump? I mean ,I guess he could have dumped Jeyne first, so he;s heroic in that way. But maybe he thought she'd be softer to land on than crusty snow, who knows ?

I think it's more about seeing the "Theon" in "Reek" than it is about finding the "Reek" in "Theon," if that makes sense? If Theon's spirit is a kind of string that runs through his life, I think a way of dealing with what happened when he was with Ramsey is by seeing how that string has run strong since he was born, through his life with the Starks, through that time as "Reek," and up through today -- and it'll travel to even better circumstances eventually, too. Anyway, that's how I conceptualize it.

Im sorry, No; I really do not follow. Unless you are really padding up the iexplanation that Theon had a strong will to survive & he's always had it, & he's been malleable throughout his life because of it.

Maybe where we differ is that I don't really believe that a person *can* forget things or stop them from affecting him inside, even if he very much wants to. So I think the best alternative is to find a way to incorporate "Reek" into Theon in general. If he doesn't, I think he'll have to expend so much mental energy convincing himself that he's nothing like "Reek" and that "Reek" is separate from him, etc, that it'll actually make those memories and those parts of himself *more* important/powerful/scary than they need to be.

Of course things affect you, thats why there is something called PTSD on the DSM. Remembering is different, you can block out trauma for years or live in denial & be pretty much contented. Do I think he'll forget? No. Do I think it will make him live like a cowed thing, like he was as Reek? No. See above.

Again, what do you mean, “incorporate Reek into Theon”? Does Kasey Duggard have to incorporate who she was under duress into her life now? How so? Explicitly, how so?

Will Theon have more or less trouble disciplining his men?

He has to get men, first. I dont think he'll be leading men; he might be a figurehead for Asha,

However, he had no trouble leading his men before, & if they didnt know about how he tricked the Ironmen under Ramsay's orders, then he would do fine. I think that some of the guilt from doing that could effect an even more humane way to lead his men. No impulsively shooting arrows at looters, that kind of thing. And he's be much nicer to Wex, who is also handicapped. But mostly because he probably cares for the little sot.

Will Theon be more or less ambitious?

Ambitious about what? I dont think he has the zeal to prove himself to anyone anymore.

Will the same things push Theon's buttons as before?

Yes, the same thing pushed his buttons before he escaped Ramsay. See the last couple of chapters, again. The way he reacted to the leathery washerwoman & the rest of the whores is a good example. His internal reactions, too.

What will Theon's sense of humor be like now, what kinds of jokes will he make?

If he loses his sense of humor that would be tragic. He would get it back; its a family trait, learned early. I suspect it will be darker, in some respects, & less frivolous.

Will he like the same kind of woman?

You mean, any woman available (who's not a whore)? He said he was done with women. And it has got to be from physical reasons. But if those problems were magically fixed? I dont see that Theon has changed. You can hopefully infer that watching Kyra & Jeyne go through what they did, would have made him more compassionate towards women in a general way, but I never got the feeling that he thought he was being mean to any woman.

Are you angling for him to become tragic soul mates with Jeyne?

I'm also interested in what goes on with his face and body as they heal

Yes, me, too. Id love to see him get them fixed or some cool dentures, gold! Or black stone!, put in his mouth. But theyre on the move in an army & in the middle of winter coming & all that. And knowing Martin, he seems intent on Gollumizing Theon, so maybe they just get him drunk & have some idiot wilding pull them all out.

Also just a thought. How many people know who he actually is, by the way? He looks nothing like his old self,

He called his sister out, im sure word would spread fast in a line of people like that. Also an old coot like Whoresbane recognized him, so others might too.

he one thing I am still thinking over in terms of Reek being a version of Theon is getting the Ironborn men to betray themselves. How must that have felt, and how did that affect Theon's thoughts on the Red Wedding (I mean in terms of comparing the two betrayals). How culpable is Theon for leading those men to their deaths?

Not culpable at all. He was forced to do it & although he might have strongly suspected Ramsay would slaughter them, he didnt know it. There was no other way out of there for him, or those men, was there? After seeing how their leader died of poisoning, my mind would have been made up right then, too.

He should be as guiltless for this as he was for being made to go down on Jeyne.

He was like a brother to Robb, not those men. He would have stood by Robb & went down like Robb.. I dont think he even thinks of the two issues as being remotely close in his mind.

[rue721]

Your analysis is so intimate & on such a level as we might as well be speculating on what type of bowel movement he'll be having at any given point in time :worried: Im just trying to keep to the shallower stuff and as how he might broadly be portrayed in the book.

This cracked me up. To me, it's all fair game, since when we're in his POV chapters, we're literally in his head. Guess I like to settle in as much as possible :P.

he is no longer referring to himself as Reek. And what “parts” of him does he describe as “Reek”, in this time frame?

Like I've said, I don't think the issue is whether or not he'll go by the name Theon from now on. Of course he will -- it's his name and always has been.

I don't know what parts of himself he'll associate with "Reek" in the future and might try to shun or kill within himself -- one guess would be any signs of being intimidated? Honestly, I don't know -- depends on how Theon conceptualizes his time as Reek, I guess. In general, though, when I say "the parts of himself that are 'Reek'," I'm thinking of characteristics that he would associate with being Reek.

Unless you are really padding up the iexplanation that Theon had a strong will to survive & he's always had it, & he's been malleable throughout his life because of it.

Of course, *I* don't think I'm padding. :P If anything, I think I might not be explaining clearly enough, because my point isn't that Theon has always had a will to survive (or any individual characteristic) but that he's always fundamentally on individual -- Theon -- and he'll eventually have to incorporate "Reek" into his identity as Theon, because "Reek" is as much a part of Theon as "Theon" is. At this point, though, we can agree to disagree -- I know you'd prefer if he shunned any thought or association of sense of ownership over Reek, I just have a different opinion on his ability to cut off a part of himself and throw it away, and how dangerous the ultimate consequences of trying to do that are.

Some examples of people who did try to do that, and, I think, were worse off for it are: Tywin (tried to cut himself off from any weakness) and Tyrion (tried to cut himself off from his looks).

what do you mean, “incorporate Reek into Theon”? Does Kasey Duggard have to incorporate who she was under duress into her life now? How so? Explicitly, how so?

Things I, personally, think would be helpful in terms of dealing with things: thinking of *good* attributes you showed during the horrors (in Theon's case, as Reek) and how they're a connection to your pre-horrors self and remind yourself that you still have them -- they weren't destroyed by living through those horrors. Figure out what you actually are culpable for (probably little to nothing, but most people do feel a lot of guilt after going through a very bad situation) and find a way to take responsibility for those things so they don't hound your conscience.

I don't know enough about Kasey Duggard to say much about her, except that a couple things she *might* be proud of were her ability to love her children, and to be kind to her children, and that that capacity for love and kindness were something that she's always had and that nobody can ever take away from her -- even her captors couldn't take that from her essential self. In the case of Theon, some things that he might be proud of from his time with Ramsey are his ability to trust others and get people to trust in him -- such as Able & the washerwomen, Jeyne, even the Ironborn who ended up dead -- and his ability to think strategically -- he knew who to trust in order to get away from Ramsey, and he was able to get to Jeyne and get her out of there besides. Not to say that "Reek" has all the credit for doing those things, but it shows that even Ramsey couldn't take away Theon's capacity for trust or trustworthiness or his ability to strategize -- and if he couldn't, probably nobody could. That knowledge could be a source of strength for Theon.

In general, I just mean dealing with the fact that things happened to *you,* but that *you* got through them, *you* ultimately got out of them, and that *you* are still *you* and there are things about *all* "versions" of you to be proud of.

In terms of the subtler ways Theon might have changed -- I agree with some of your ideas, disagree with others, not really a big deal -- that's the kind of thing I'm interested to see in the book itself, because GRRM could go down any number of paths and sell it in a way I would buy. This, though:

He said he was done with women.

Maybe he's done having sex with women (or maybe not. Depends on what you call sex and/or what's actually going on with him. And regardless, who on earth can just be like: Sex? OVER IT. But I digress), but that doesn't mean "done with women." Women still exist and will still be around Theon, just like men do/will be. I'll be interested to see how that evolves, because his interactions with women as "Reek" and his interactions with women previous to that were so totally different. He really liked to banter before, but I don't know if he will now? He also otherwise was really dismissive with women at best (pre-Ramsey), and I wonder how much of that will continue. I'm especially interested to see how his relationship with Asha changes.

Are you angling for him to become tragic soul mates with Jeyne?

LOL no! First of all, imo neither Jeyne nor Theon are really in an "on the prowl" kind of mood. And also, what? Most depressing couple ever.

Id love to see him get them fixed or some cool dentures, gold!

Theon, sporting a grill. :P. The metal teeth idea is really cool though. PLEASE MAKE THEM IRON. That's one argument for them being black -- to look like iron. Another argument is because gold is really soft, and that could be an issue. I guess the other question is whether it's better to pull all his teeth or somehow make a series of...Idk what they're called, I guess just fake teeth...to fill in the places where broken teeth had to be pulled? I would go with the second option, because of the lack of denture paste. How would he eat with the dentures in without paste?

Also an old coot like Whoresbane recognized him, so others might too.

I wonder about this -- how different does Theon really look? The Ironborn men he led back to Ramsey seemed to recognize him -- that was an essential part of Roose's plan, if I understood correctly. I also wonder if any of his bones are broken, including in the face? If anything, I would think that would change his looks most of all, but he doesn't mention anything like that and it doesn't seem to be Ramsey's style to bust bones. I think the only major differences in his looks are his white hair, his bad teeth, and that he looks frail and skinny? That sounds like he'll probably look basically like himself pretty soon -- once he puts on some muscle again, anyway. So the spy idea is probably not going to work regardless of rumors. It's maybe be good if they start some kind of rumor of him coming back from the grave or something -- good way to explain the white hair and black teeth in a creepy way. I mean, why not come up with scary stories about him at this point, to try and freak out his opponents? He could sell it, looking like he's been through hell as he does.

He was like a brother to Robb, not those men. He would have stood by Robb & went down like Robb.. I dont think he even thinks of the two issues as being remotely close in his mind.

I don't think he had a choice, either. But I don't know if he *feels* any culpablity or not. When he describes those men, he makes them sound so pathetic -- even piteous. Even taking into account all the other things he went through, I would think that being forced to betray people who trust him *again* would be a huge source of torment. He does call himself "Theon Turncloak" and other people call him that, too. I don't know, that's just something that I could see really undermining a person's sense of self -- being forced to be a betrayer to others in that way. Same thing with Ramsey forcing Theon to hurt Jeyne. And it did seem important to him that he save Jeyne, and he felt guilty over not being able to do it (telling himself Theon would have done it, etc), so I don't think he takes the "betrayer" issue lightly.

ETA:

Thinking about it a bit more, in terms of how I think Theon should/could conceptualize his torture and how it might have changed him, I think a parallel could be drawn between Theon's torture at the hands of Ramsey and the atrocities against the Jews at the hands of the Nazis in the Holocaust. How does a person or group recover from surviving been made less-than-human? I know a lot of Jews are taught: always remember that it could happen again or to others. Do what you can to make sure it doesn't. Think about your link to past struggles and how you've gotten through them all and remained spiritually intact. Think about the glory you'll attain in the future because your spirit is still intact.

Not to say that's the perfect way to go about dealing with horrors inflicted on you, but that way of thinking is probably affecting the way I think Theon should deal with his situation -- and I do think that way has proven fairly successful for the Jews in terms of dealing with the Holocaust.

[Clariana]

I think Theon, like his once jolly uncle, is doomed to turn into a new damphair... I hope not but the precedent is there.

[Chalky]

I think Theon, like his once jolly uncle, is doomed to turn into a new damphair... I hope not but the precedent is there.

I think a more legitimate fear, and one which seems more likely, is that GRRM's created a great character in Theon that's just going to be burned in Stannis' nightfires, perhaps alongside Ramsey

[lady crackhead]

I think Theon, like his once jolly uncle, is doomed to turn into a new damphair... I hope not but the precedent is there.

Except Theon didnt have a religious conversion. I dont think torture changed his mind about Damphair still being full of shit.

[Knight of Ashes]

Except Theon didnt have a religious conversion. I dont think torture changed his mind about Damphair still being full of shit.

Seaweed. Damphair is full of seaweed.

[Guest]

The teeth thing bothered me most. I wish it had been like, see a dentist lose a few but he's still hawt.

When I first started his chapter I was pretty pissed because Theon HAD been my favourite character. And now he's, what, gollum?? But as I read on his chapters were some of the best, and the ending was just amazing.

If he could truly recover physically (and somewhat, mentally) I'd prefer it. But toes and penises don't grow back, sadly. Maybe Melisandre can, ahem, MAKEHIMAMAN.

:lmao: Is this a joke? He was your favorite until he wasn't attractive anymore? How sad.... Theon is twice the man as "Gollum" than he was as "Handsome Theon" (And yes, I mean twice the man even though his dick is missing/deformed/flayed).

I mean, seriously, he couldn't have been your favorite character if all it took was some physical deformaties to change your mind. Good god! I fear for your friends in real life....

I guess to each their own though....If you want your favorite characters to be ranked according to their appearance, that's cool too. :cheers:

[lady crackhead]

I think she was pointing to the fact that martin has dehumanized him to the level of a gollum.

Thats how i meant it, anyway.

[Guest]

I think she was pointing to the fact that martin has dehumanized him to the level of a gollum.

Thats how i meant it, anyway.

Well Krakenhead (great name by the way!), I agree with 99.9% of what you say on this thread but here, I'm going to have to disagree. IMO, that poster clearly is pissed that Theon is no longer a stud. But oh well. He's still studly to me :wub:

P.S. I only quoted half of that post. I edited it to quote the whole thing now.

[Lord Jon Connington]

I personally don't think he's alive by the end of the series. His destiny is pretty much intertwined with Ramsay's now. I see him killing both himself and Ramsay as a sacrifice for either his sister or a Stark (Rickon, Sansa maybe even Jon).

[TheFrenchFish]

The Reek chapters were the best written and most eye opening POVs. Were they at times distasteful and horrifying? Absolutely but they offered so much. You got to see and learn an amazing amount of insight regarding the North. Background story abut Roose (and Ramsay), Lady Dustin, tidbits about different houses..even his long dead first son. Who would have thought that he was fostered in the Vale by the Hunters and could have been a Knight? "Pork Pie" for cripes sake! :)

I certainly do not feel sorry for Theon, but I did begin to sympathize. We got to see him finally admit to wanting to be a Stark all this time and how he knew deep down he could not be one. How he even fancied Eddard marrying Sansa to him! Seeing the protagonist of the North in the eye and viewpoint of Theon was extremely rewarding. I would trade another chapter of "Reek" for all of Dany's.

Lastly I will comment on Krakenhead's feeling that Martin catered to "fanboys" in punishing Theon. I just don't see that. I mean, how many people wanted Jaime killed and tortured for throwing Bran out and then suddenly he loses his sword hand two novels later. I don't think he wanted to appease anyone for it, but rather show the character development through exceedingly horrific trials. You see the monster that Ramsay is and how he broke another man. Now we get to see if Theon is an Ironman and will follow their mantra..What is dead can never die, but rises again, harder and stronger. I was encouraged to see Theon want to die sword in hand in the last chapter as he fled with Jayne. It showed me there might be a glimmer of a man left to rise again.

[Knight of Ashes]

I personally don't think he's alive by the end of the series. His destiny is pretty much intertwined with Ramsay's now. I see him killing both himself and Ramsay as a sacrifice for either his sister or a Stark (Rickon, Sansa maybe even Jon).

Clearly, you missed that part about Theon getting new dentures.

I kind of thought so too at first, but for Asha's conversation with Trist Botley about that kingsmoot involving Torgon the Latecomer. About that kingsmoot being unlawful because the king's eldest son (Torgon) was not around to make a claim. I believe this is now going to apply to Theon.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Again, what are you thinking these “Reek parts” are, by the end of his story? And how would it be “sad” or “dangerous” to ignore whatever these so-called parts are?

Theon now knows things about himself that most people do not know: how they will react to torture, what lengths they will go to survive. Which parts of themselves can be subverted and destroyed, and which are immutable. It would be sad if he cannot at least acknowledge that Reek served a purpose and his a part of him.

As a victim of torture, though, the only thing he can take from that experience, as pertaining to himself & cause+effect, is that he trusted the wrong person, for the wrong reasons. He doesnt have any reason to feel cowed & made to feel like shit now, anymore than a rape victim would.

I think this is a simplistic way to view the outcome of a very complex situation. Theon is not simply a rape victim. He made the choice as Theon to let Ramsay in, and as Reek that caused a lot of suffering to powerless people who trusted him at Moat Cailin and at Winterfell. Even if you contend that it was not his fault and he had no free will left at Moat Cailin (which is seemingly untrue based on his last couple of chapters), he may well feel residual guilt and self-flagellation about it. Rape victims often blame themselves too, for not saying no strongly enough, for not fighting back, etc. And Theon is not going to be getting any couseling to deal with any of that.

He might feel ashamed for what he was made to do, but he doesnt own it.

And maybe he should. He was owning what he did at Winterfell. He may have to own what he did at Moat Cailin. He may also have to own what he did to himself, in the choices he made. This isn't about assigning blame, it's about processing the natural effects of degradation and torture, and being so co-opted by it that you give up your identity and free will. Then you forgive yourself if you can.

Are you trying to say that Theon acted less than acceptably as Reek? When youre pushed down to the level he was, you either do what you do to survive or you give up. I dont think anyone can predict which way theyd really react until theyre in that position.

Don't come at me now, but as the devil's advocate, one could argue that what he did at Moat Cailin was something he chose to do. He could have escaped. He could have asked for the iron men's help to get away. He could have run to Stannis, etc. Some might also say that death is better than being a traitor to your own people. So there is plenty of room for a thinking, feeling person to feel a lot of self-recrimination over some of the things Theon did as Reek.

Im sorry, No; I really do not follow. Unless you are really padding up the iexplanation that Theon had a strong will to survive & he's always had it, & he's been malleable throughout his life because of it.

Or you could say Theon always had a weak sense of identity due to his life situation, and that it was further weakened by his visit to Pyke, making him vulnerable to Ramsay but also able to survive. A person with a stronger sense of identity might have chosen death rather than be subverted as Theon was.

Of course things affect you, thats why there is something called PTSD on the DSM. Remembering is different, you can block out trauma for years or live in denial & be pretty much contented.

I strongly disagree that people who live in denial are "pretty much contented." Also, unlike people whose trauma is solely psychological, Theon has very concrete physical reminders of his torture and degradation that neither he nor anyone else can ignore. Makes it much harder to compartmentalize or deny.

Again, what do you mean, “incorporate Reek into Theon”? Does Kasey Duggard have to incorporate who she was under duress into her life now? How so? Explicitly, how so?

Yes, and I think rue did a great job explaining it. Everything you do informs who you are, even the worst things, even the things you have no choice in, and most especially the way you become complicit in your own victimization.

If he loses his sense of humor that would be tragic. He would get it back; its a family trait, learned early. I suspect it will be darker, in some respects, & less frivolous.

You think sense of humor is a Greyjoy family trait?!? They seem like a rather dour lot. That Damphair is a real knee slapper, and Victarion? Barrel of laughs. Euron, so light hearted! I'm teasing. I like to tease people who drown people for fun and profit.

Not culpable at all. He was forced to do it & although he might have strongly suspected Ramsay would slaughter them, he didnt know it.

Sure he knew. He saw what happened at Winterfell. He knew how the Boltons rolled. He absolutely knew.

There was no other way out of there for him, or those men, was there? After seeing how their leader died of poisoning, my mind would have been made up right then, too.

He should be as guiltless for this as he was for being made to go down on Jeyne.

Perhaps, but I think he did have options at Moat Cailin and he was too completely subverted by Ramsay and fearful to try them. Any person would feel a sense of shame over that. Is he culpable? It's a grey area. I wouldn't be willing to blame him but I think the ironborn would be a hell of a lot less forgiving that I am, and Theon is ironborn. There could well be a lot of self-recrimination for it. Totally undeserved? Hard to say. One could argue that he could have chosen death. It would have been more honorable and there are characters in the story who would have done just that rather than betray their own people, torture or not. Living at all costs is not a value that everyone shares.

[Civfan]

I did mean the way he was acting more than the deformities. I was reading and, well, it just wasn't 'Theon' anymore. It was Reek. Theon's my favourite, not Reek. But then he became Theon again in a badass way, and his chapters were the most interesting...

Sorry I was confusing. I should have clarified: Theon is my favourite character again/still. I was sad to see the character ruined, but that was before I realised he was getting better. As soon as I saw Jeyne was there I had hope he'd man up and save her, so I was very pleased with the ending.

The ugliness part bothers me separately, because no matter how he heals mentally he'll always have those scars. He can't kick ass with a bow, or be any sort of warrior. The Greyjoys value physical ability over mental (which is why Asha can never get the respect she deserves- weak wimminz aren't worthy) so as long as Theon is a maimed toothless old man who can't father sons, he'll have a difficult time getting respect. And that's what he's been trying to get the whole series..

[lady crackhead]

rue, Ill get back to you . But some of this probably applies to your post, too.

Theon now knows things about himself that most people do not know: how they will react to torture, what lengths they will go to survive. Which parts of themselves can be subverted and destroyed, and which are immutable. It would be sad if he cannot at least acknowledge that Reek served a purpose and his a part of him.

It goes without saying that he realizes what he had to do to keep alive. Youre pointing out the obvious. And youre phrasing it so it sounds patronizing, as in, 'Does little Theon know why he was punished?'

I reject the idea that he was punished for his sins by Ramsay and taught a needed lesson from it, & I dont see that Theon, as he is Theon by the end, does either.

He IS like a rape victim in the way that he did NOT incur the victimization. Again, he trusted the wrong person for the wrong reason, that in no way makes what Ramsay did to him his fault. Period. Your reasoning is of the kind of person who would blame a prostitute for being raped. Furthermore, the culture that we and any paternalistic society lives in makes rape victims self-blame. This doesnt apply to Theon, and not even if he was raped under this scenario because his torture was so extreme and constant. When he had to scramble for his life before Ramsay, he told himself he just had to be good to not get hurt anymore. Theon at the end doesnt think this way at all, unless Im mistaken. He shows no signs of internalizing guilt from what he's been put through or made to do by Ramsay, as far as I remember.

Does he feel any guilt about Moat Cailin? No, not even as he hears the screaming of the dying ironmen. You do what you do to live. It's bullshit to invoke the idea of dying with honor & having principles about someone who is in a situation so extreme. This is a bankrupt & childish argument, one that is routinely put upon victimized people. 'I would kill myself rather than be raped', 'Why didnt all those Jews just rise up & turn on their concentration camp guards?', etc...ad infinitum, ad nauseum. All healthy people are born with the will to live & will fight ceaselessly to do so. Period. He was stronger than those that have a weaker will to live, that's his luck. Good & bad. Will he feel some guilt after, maybe; but i highly doubt it will be so severe that it interferes with any of the plot as it will pertain to him, & I doubt highly that he will self-flagellate or want to sacrifice himself for his sins. It isnt in his character, & his character has ...yes, come back by the end of the book.

Will he be messed up emotionally over his missing wiener -if it is missing? How could he not be. Will it effect how how deals with people? Other than Asha, I dont see it.

I think it was sufficently painted that there was no other way out of moat calin. And even if there were, he is thoroughly under Ramsay at this point. Why didnt Kacey Duggard run away from her captors, too? She had the chance. Theon needed a bit of ego building in order to think against Ramsay & it didnt come until later for him; it is a moot question at best regarding this time in his life & at worst, victim-blaming again.

As i said, he may have had an inkling that Ramsay would kill them but he didnt "absolutely" know, & he doesnt deserve the blame. The blame lays sollely with Ramsay.

UNLESS, he really thought, Ah, theyre just the weak sons of salt wives, no loss. Which is what his brother thought. Dont really know that one. Its not out of line with somethng Theon would think as a justification for his behavior, so that is a gray spot.

A person with a stronger identity would have honor & choose death? Is that how youre spinning it? Like our dear departed Nedly? He was a certified saint. Theon is human. And therefore better.

Everything you do informs who you are, even the worst things, even the things you have no choice in, and most especially the way you become complicit in your own victimization.

Bullshit. Bad things happen to good people all the time & good people resort to all kinds of bad things to survive, all the time. Theon wasnt good, but he is (was , if hes going to be turned into gollum) painted human. If he stays bad & unrepentant in the eyes of people who are asking too much like you, then that would be great in my eyes. Being good & staying alive are not necessarily compatible

You think sense of humor is a Greyjoy family trait?!? They seem like a rather dour lot. That Damphair is a real knee slapper, and Victarion? Barrel of laughs. Euron, so light hearted! I'm teasing. I like to tease people who drown people for fun and profit.

I didnt say what kind of humor :D Yes, Asha is one of the few characters in ASOIAF who has a strong sense of humor. His brothers both did, too. Dagmar has one. Uncle Aeron was a lot of fun, according to Theon. Uncle Reader is intelligent & has humor, that;s why Asha likes him. ANd Theon himself has one, however inappropriate it can be. I bet it drove humor-challenged Jon up a wall.

Edit:

I'm teasing. I like to tease people who drown people for fun and profit.

Youre getting me confused with someone else.