(ADWD SPOILERS) Reek Chapters

[Zombiecat]

I hated Theon when he took Winterfell, but I understood it from his point of view. He was being haunted with guilt then (via his dreams) and with his return to Winterfell. I think if just one adult had been good to him, loved him as his own, he wouldn't have turned out to be the arrogant dick who had much and more to prove to everybody in his life. Sure, Ned fostered him, but he felt it was more duty than anything.

"You have to know your name" was triumphant for me. Asha's description of him was very creepy, reminded me of The Tales from the Crypt dude. I think he's well on his way to redeeming himself. As a POV, I really liked his observations.

[Sword of the North]

.... almost killing Bran with an arrow, etc.

Whoa! When did this happen in AGoCoSoFfwD? All I remember was Theon saving Bran's life, and Robb telling him how he could have hit Bran. Robb was right in doing this, but Robb never thanked him did he? Did Bran thank him for that either?(I don't remember it happening in text, but that's what rereads are for.)

The Reek/Theon PoV was definitely me favorite in ADwD. Maybe it was because we got to see the Boltons up close, but I also think it was because of the transformation he has gone through throughout the whole series.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Oh please. Ned is all about being ethical & just. It's the principle that counts. Balon caused the trouble, Balon would be the one to foot the bill for Theon's care.

You may be confusing it with modern customs of child support payments. Balon may have been hit with reparations for his raids, but he wouldn't have got some sort of "Care and feeding of Theon" bill, itemised. Thats just not the way that Westerosi nobles seem to do things. Pinching pennies is very much not noble. Remember that when Jaime was negotiating hostages he didn't even mention payment - and Lannisters are much more moneygrubbing than Starks.

It's not as if bringing up Theon would have cost very much, since all the costs of tutors and servants for the children were already being spent for the other kids. That just leaves his clothes, weapons and food, which would be pocket change compared to the costs of running Winterfell. What do you think the reparations document looked like? "10,000 golden dragons per year in payment for damages caused to Stark holdings, and 1 dragon for Theon's care & feeding"? Pinching pennies is not a Stark thing to do. Some of the more petty nobles like Freys might do it, but that would be just to add insult to injury rather than because it was worth their while.

[King_In_The_North]

I hated Theon for being an entitled douchebag A-hole even though I understood his motives, but now I kinda like him.

[maigrey]

I feel sorry for Theon, but I don't really know that I like him any more for all the suffering he's gone through. I know this was before a great deal of his torture (when he himself said that he still had some fight left) but I didn't really like his actions when he was fleeing with Kyra. I mean telling her they should split up and if she were caught, he'd come back and save her with all the might of the Greyjoys. I get that he was afraid and it was human nature and such, but she did just break him out. And a ) I don't know if he could've really delivered on the promised rescue and b ) it was highly likely that she'd have been tortured and killed before the day was out. There are characters I like more from the series that may have told her to run and tried to purposefully draw Bolton away.

That being said, I think that Theon has always been very human and I don't really blame him for trying to make something of himself as a Greyjoy. More specifically I guess, I don't blame him for sacking Winterfell. I mean yeah it was a betrayal of a friend, buuuut it was in the name of his own people and it all just got away from him. He didn't intend to be some sort of child-killer going in.

I think it does confuse me a little why he's never just killed himself. I mean he had a knife, and assuming he didn't blunder it, could easily have killed himself or thrown himself from a tower. He wasn't waiting for some chance to fight back and regain his identity - and I can't imagine that it was that great being Reek. If he did have some fighting spirit left in him buried deep down, then I suppose that is admirable, as was his helping to rescue Jeyne.

EDIT: Also I don't think that Balon really had to pay Ned for Theon's care? I mean what would Ned have done if he didn't? Killed the boy?

I think Cat when she found out what Theon did to Winterfell said something like "he ate at my table since he was 10" which kinda leads me to believe that they took him as a ward and actually provided for him as such.

[Winterfelon]

Theon screwed up majorly when he invaded Winterfell and, tbh I hoped he'd stay dead. For me, a much better fate in a brutal world where only the truly strong survive. Theon was an upstart who overreached and for that, in Martin's world you normally pay with your life (perhaps I guess you can argue he did).

I was hooked on the 'Reekon' chapters, but mainly for the Winterfell/north perspective and their place in the story, rather than sympathy for Theon - I felt no joy at his self rediscovery.

As to his emasculation (not sure, but 'Martin gelding' seems to be total removal), well I think the answer is that ol' George has left himself some wriggle room. It's implied almost to the point of fact, but you can't say it conclusively - the 'cock straining against the breaches' line is evidence against even if there seems to be a lot more for it - especiallly when Roose offers him a change of clothes.

Anyway, heavly implied yes, but definite fact, no at this point. And somebody said it might have been sloppy editing - I felt that too when the breaches line came up...

[iamthedave]

I also want to say thanks for this exchange, iamthedave. Your take on it and my comments forced me to think harder about Theon how his captivity at Winterfell affected him. It's been an interesting topic for me and deepened my understanding of the character.

Well I do try.

Theon's the one whose grown on me the most, so I've been thinking about him and his situation a lot of late (and obviously Dance gives plenty of food for thought on the subject).

When I mentioned his degradation at Winterfell, I meant mentally. Remember he arrived at Winterfell intending to be fair and just - and I believe he meant that. But it all went horribly wrong. Even as he's going downhill, it's noted he makes efforts to be fair in rule, punishing his men for going too far etc.

[iamthedave]

Whoa! When did this happen in AGoCoSoFfwD? All I remember was Theon saving Bran's life, and Robb telling him how he could have hit Bran. Robb was right in doing this, but Robb never thanked him did he? Did Bran thank him for that either?(I don't remember it happening in text, but that's what rereads are for.)

The Reek/Theon PoV was definitely me favorite in ADwD. Maybe it was because we got to see the Boltons up close, but I also think it was because of the transformation he has gone through throughout the whole series.

Nope, it's something Theon looks back on bitterly. Which makes a lot of sense given he used to take a great deal of pride (and very justifiably) in his skills as an archer.

[Knight of Ashes]

You may be confusing it with modern customs of child support payments. Balon may have been hit with reparations for his raids, but he wouldn't have got some sort of "Care and feeding of Theon" bill, itemised. Thats just not the way that Westerosi nobles seem to do things. Pinching pennies is very much not noble. Remember that when Jaime was negotiating hostages he didn't even mention payment - and Lannisters are much more moneygrubbing than Starks.

It's not as if bringing up Theon would have cost very much, since all the costs of tutors and servants for the children were already being spent for the other kids. That just leaves his clothes, weapons and food, which would be pocket change compared to the costs of running Winterfell. What do you think the reparations document looked like? "10,000 golden dragons per year in payment for damages caused to Stark holdings, and 1 dragon for Theon's care & feeding"? Pinching pennies is not a Stark thing to do. Some of the more petty nobles like Freys might do it, but that would be just to add insult to injury rather than because it was worth their while.

I'm not too sure about Lannisters being more moneygrubbing than Starks. Tyrion remembers Tywin as being more openhanded with the gold. Maybe not for charitable purposes :wacko: but to show off their wealth and power.

Anyway, if Balon paid for Theon's needs, he was a hostage; if Ned did, then he was a ward.

[HouseLark]

I dislike Theon intensely, but his chapters were probably the best in ADWD. All his chapters have been great across the series. His character arc has been brilliant and its always nice to turn a page and find he's next up - especially if I've just had to finish another chapter of Bran or Dany going around in circles.

The Reek chapters were brilliant in showing a broken man.

[Guest]

The Reek chapters were brilliant in showing a broken man.

I don't see Theon as a "broken man" at all what-so-ever. I've said and also someone mentions above that when he says to Asha "you have to know your name" it was a huge triumphant moment and I agree with that 100%. IMO, he came close but was never completely broken. In fact, I think he dealt with his ordeal rather well, all things considered. He survived. He did not break, he did not commit suicide, he survived and knows who he is. Well met Theon!

[lady crackhead]

Good work, iamthedave & Tyroshi Sellsword. As well as everyone else (Pale V? Come back).

Ha, it's somewhat of a vindication, reading all of these pro-Theon posts now, after years of trudging through the wastelands of this board, beating off all the Theon-haters one-handed.

And they were legion.

I keep seeing comments popping up here there from people who say that they always liked the character "secretly" or whatever. Did the Theon-hating culture of the board in years past keep you from posting your appreciation for this character?

Anyway, I love reading all these posts. Every one of them; even from the haters.

[lady crackhead]

I know this was before a great deal of his torture (when he himself said that he still had some fight left) but I didn't really like his actions when he was fleeing with Kyra. I mean telling her they should split up and if she were caught, he'd come back and save her with all the might of the Greyjoys. I get that he was afraid and it was human nature and such, but she did just break him out. And a ) I don't know if he could've really delivered on the promised rescue and b ) it was highly likely that she'd have been tortured and killed before the day was out. There are characters I like more from the series that may have told her to run and tried to purposefully draw Bolton away.

Theon was an avid hunter who knew how hunters thought & the best odds of escape. He was right; they had a better chance if they split up. At the time this happened, Kyra coming to his cell with the key, he didn't know this was Ramsay's game. That Ramsay hunted women down (& men; he let Theon live though). What did you want him to do? Strap her on his back & swing out of there like Cary Elwes in "The Princess Bride"?

Youre reaching in his pocket to pull out more treachery, when you suggest he didnt mean to come back. First, he liked Kyra. He knew her from before the war started, & he was trying to protect her from Ramsay before Ramsay cold-cocked him & he passed out at Winterfell. Second, Dont you think he would want to come back with his men (Ashas or Dagmers) & kick Ramsay's face in? I do. I think he'd move heaven & earth to do it.

I think it does confuse me a little why he's never just killed himself. I mean he had a knife, and assuming he didn't blunder it, could easily have killed himself or thrown himself from a tower.

It confuses me that it confuses you...and others; I keep seeing this comment go round. It isnt that easy to kill yourself, even in hellish circumstances history keeps proving this over & over again.

Survival instinct.

[Winterfelon]

When I mentioned his degradation at Winterfell, I meant mentally. Remember he arrived at Winterfell intending to be fair and just - and I believe he meant that. But it all went horribly wrong. Even as he's going downhill, it's noted he makes efforts to be fair in rule, punishing his men for going too far etc.

Perhaps, but it's a bit of a leap to then go kill two innocents just to make a point and the fact you feel a bit unloved is no good reason to go round betraying those you loved even if they didn't love you back. Also Theon goes after Winterfell at least in part to try reclaim his position with Balon to slight Asha. This is just impatience. He should have just done what his Dad said and go a reaving, proven himself then dealt with Asha later and anyway he wouldnt he have inherited the throne anyway as there's no female succession in the iron born?

Theon's a poor player in this game and for me no matter how strong (or compellingly written) he is he still deserves to go down with maximum ignominy. :)

But then something tells me that's unlikely. :P

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

When I mentioned his degradation at Winterfell, I meant mentally. Remember he arrived at Winterfell intending to be fair and just - and I believe he meant that. But it all went horribly wrong. Even as he's going downhill, it's noted he makes efforts to be fair in rule, punishing his men for going too far etc.

Oh, you meant his degradation when he sacked Winterfell, not when he was a ward/hostage. Yes, that was pretty degrading, b/c it probably pointed out what he had feared all along: that he never was a prince of Winterfell, and the people there always viewed him as an outsider. It is a really sad story, for everyone involved. I just hope the sad ending is reserved for the Boltons.

ETA: I am not one of those secret Theon-lovers. I hated his guts until this book. Now he is beyond such petty assessments. I am interested to see where he goes, and if he can actually find himself, and who he will be ultimately.

[Knight of Ashes]

Good work, iamthedave & Tyroshi Sellsword. As well as everyone else (Pale V? Come back).

Ha, it's somewhat of a vindication, reading all of these pro-Theon posts now, after years of trudging through the wastelands of this board, beating off all the Theon-haters one-handed.

And they were legion.

I keep seeing comments popping up here there from people who say that they always liked the character "secretly" or whatever. Did the Theon-hating culture of the board in years past keep you from posting your appreciation for this character?

That gives support to Blaine's speculations as to Martin's motivations for writing what happened to Theon at the Dreadfort.

PS You're Malcolm Greyjoy link is "not available in your (my) country."

[lady crackhead]

That gives support to Blaine's speculations as to Martin's motivations for writing what happened to Theon at the Dreadfort.

PS You're Malcolm Greyjoy link is "not available in your (my) country."

Nuncle Killjoy, It does not! Blaine postulated that Martin wrote what he wrote as a way to tell the fans, 'Aha, see? You wanted this, so I gave it to you. Now, dont you feel sorry for wishing that on poor Theon?'

Whereas my theory is the heads to his tails: Martin gave the fans what theyve been screaming for for years; he took it to the lengths theyve wanted...he pandered to them, for their support. I probably wouldnt feel this way if the previous book hadnt tanked & if he hadnt made a bid for support when he dedicated this next books to his rabid fans. I dont expect people to agree with me. But my theory is as valid as any other.

And what's more, Ive heard Martin talk abt the Theon character now about three or four times over the years, and he always does so in a disparaging voice, like he anticipated the enmity from the fans listening and curbed the way he talked about his spawn to ameliorate them.

So yes, I think he set out to please the fans, but like in CoK, he cant write about a complicated character like Theo without hitting some kind of paydirt. If you look at the largest responses to Theon's story in CoK & now in DwD, the fanboys reacted to what Theon did as if he were a real person. To the point that they would routinely say that they couldnt stand to read his story, that they had no interest in it, that it was boring (!)... Which is stupidly, horriby misguided, because the story is some solid writing, & exciting. But they didnt appreciate it. They just hated the character because he betrayed the books heroes, the Starks. (And also because he was somewhat dick-y.) If he turned around and gave them what they wanted in DwD, the response was going to be that some of them would feel sorry for him & some would think he was redeemed. That is just a byproduct. (About half the people have already said that they feel sympathy for his plight but he was rotten & should still die, also.)

Do you suggest that if he wanted to make the readers (not fanboys) become sympathetic to Theon, that there wasnt a way to go about it that didnt decimate the character to the extent he went to in the book?

[Xayoz]

Just having finished ADwD a minute ago, I must say that Reek/Theon chapters where my absolute favorites of this book.

Theon was not a character I had payed too much mind before, but this book raises him to one of my favorites.

[King_In_The_North]

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[Guest]

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