(ADWD SPOILERS) Reek Chapters

[JD44Irish]

Here's two questions for thought. If Theon never sacked Winterfell:

1) Would the Red Wedding still have happened?

2) What would be the fate of Winterfell/Bran/Rickon?

The first one is tough for me. The Red Wedding seemed in the making as soon as Robb left Roose Bolton in charge of the rear guard. He stayed at Moat Cailin then moved south to Harrenhal where we know he met with the Freys and did some significant plotting towards the Red Wedding.

However, if Theon never sacked Winterfell, Ramsay would never have escaped as "Reek" and the earliest Roose could have taken Winterfell is middle of ADWD. Although it would have been better guarded and the storm would have come and eventually crippled Bolton's troops.

For that reason, I think Winterfell survives if its not for Theon. Bran and Rickon would still be there w/ Maester Luwin and the others. I guess we have yet to see whether Theon sent Bran and Rickon onto bigger and better things.

[King_In_The_North]

If Theon didn't capture Winterfell, then news of Bran and Rickon's "death" wouldn't get to Robb (because, like, they're alive and well) and he wouldn't sleep with and then get married to Jeyne Westerling. So there probably wouldn't be a Red Wedding.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I've always been a huge fan and sympathizer of Theon so maybe that's why I had such a hard time with what Ramsay did to him. I'm not faint of heart and rather enjoyed the Red Wedding, among other heinous acts of violence throughout the series. But I honestly almost could not continue reading about Reek/Theon. That level of physical and emotional torture and human suffering hurt my heart and made me almost ill. I was so sad for him. At one point, he prays to a weirwood tree and I actually cried real tears (I've only done this once ever in my life and it was the book Outsiders. Ha!)

Am I the only one that had such a hard time with this?

Also, for those of you that hated Theon post ADwD, has your opinion changed or are you feeling like he's getting all he deserves?

And one more question...Did Ramsay cut off Theons, uh, you know...His manhood? I couldn't tell if that was the case or not.

I never quite felt sorry for him because of the things he'd done in the past. His treatment was horrendous, but then, I kept thinking of what he did to the little miller boys, and any budding sympathy died on the vine. I didn't think his conduct excused or justified what Ramsay did, but I didn't feel sorry for Theon.

However, there was the point at which Reek/Theon tries to excuse himself for having murdered the two Miller boys because it he hadn't, he'd have been laughed at....or something. But I thought it clear that he no longer found that explanation so convincing. So I guess I consider that new Theon a different person from the last one, and finally felt sorry for what has happened to him on a human level.

[Blaine]

Martin took it too far; he should be embarrassed at how he sold out one of his best written characters for some cheap fanboy applause. His writing was overindulgent & sly, too. Repetitious about some forms of pain Theon experienced, but after strongly hinting that Theon's penis was flayed to the point where he begged for it to be cut off, ...he never once in the whole book has pain that emanates from the groin area. Some things dont make rational sense, like a man who was starved (& ate a live rat ..after only 3 days?) would turn away steak instead of mincing it & swallowing it. Or a man with shattered teeth would slurp mashed pea soup-age...which would stick to every exposed nerve in his broken grill & hurt like the bayjaybus.

See, I think you could say the GRRM did the opposite. He created a situation where you've got this character who does something irredeemable. He sacks Winterfell, the seat of all the readers' sympathies in the book.

Then, when we pick back up Theon's tale, he takes that character and shows us how truly un-evil and sad he really is. Any desire to see Theon suffer for his actions goes away pretty quickly as the reader is, as you said, kind of assaulted by these vivid descriptions of Ramsay's torturing. If I were the type to suspect GRRM's motives in writing in that way, I would think he was making a point about the reality of torture vs. the desire for revenge. Not to satisfy fanboy applause, but to subvert any desire for such a thing with the reality and brutality of violence, which is a theme throughout ASOIAF

[Blaine]

DAMN SQL

[lady crackhead]

How easy would it have been to just give up, after all the physical and mental brutality he'd endured?

One of the biggest charges thrown at Theon through the years -and still- is that he’s “weak”. Which people mistakenly use for “real”. He wasn’t weak when he was fighting with Robb, and he wasn’t weak when he was fighting with the ironmen. He wasn’t a weak leader when he took Winterfell; he was human. He let his softness for the people & his foster brothers lead him to half-measures. Anyone else would have immediately killed those dire wolves, if he didn’t it was only because they were the pets of his foster brothers. Foster brothers who were never even close to him; Bran mentions that he never liked him in GoT.

And he wasn’t weak for surviving torture of the kind he endured under Ramsay. He had a strong survival instinct in him. And although he was forced to participate in torturing another, he did his best to help Jeyene survive, too. I can't help but snicker a little at reading some of the high-minded judgments of readers on characters they deem less than ..well, less than themselves, for one thing. When they have very little conception of what they would be moved to do in the characters place. Other than dream up some more fantastical scenarios for themselves.

Like DD said previously, there is a silly double-standard for Theon when you rank him next to characters on par morally with his standing .. And while it never excuses the things Theon let happen under his mistaken idea that he had to act like a true Ironborn to be accepted by his family & right the humiliations of both himself and his family, at base, everything he did, he did out of the two strongest forces within a person, the overwhelming desire to be accepted & to be loved. If he’s weak for that, then the rest of you are condemned as well.

He did do terrible things, and may be considered the most treacherous of his generation. But the generations before had similarly infamous individuals who committed heinous acts

.

The idea that he is the most treacherous of his generation is laughable. He let a horrible thing happen for his own benefit when he let them kill the miller’s wife, who he knew, & her young boys. The goal was to keep the castle by any means, to not back down, to prevail as a conqueror... and it’s in keeping with the ironborn ways. It’s no less ignominious a thing that is done by ANY army, in order to keep control, or as a byproduct of violence & war. And that goes for the battlefield deaths, the rape, the beatings & the sacrifices to the Drowned God.

How is it weak to grab the reins of your own destiny? He made a decision as an adult, albeit a young impressionable one, to belong to his family after spending half his life as a hostage. And what kind of future did continuing to be a hostage hold for Theon? Had Robb prevailed, what was he going to do with Theon? Robb, his foster brother, the master of his destiny, marrying him off to a Frey, most likely. Never to see his family again, never to have a chance to get back in their favor, be accepted by his own blood, his own people with whom he spent the first 9 years of his life as a shy little boy (aww...)? To spurn his own blood? His own rightful place? His real identity? He was forced into it by Balon, but Balon was his father. Blood means a lot in this book, unless its Greyjoy blood. Another doublestandard.

On a more base note, I find it ironic that the guy who enjoyed sticking his dick into any woman he could coerce (suggesting that he did nothing to please them) was reduced to having to please a woman with his mouth. Poetic justice?

Once you decide that Theon is villainous -or treacherous, turncoat, weak, a weasel, etc- even on a tiny scale, it somehow becomes ok to ascribe to him even more nefarious deeds.... He didnt coerce anyone into his bed. The miller’s wife was quite happy with Theon in her bed, and she left reminders on his back. Kyra, the girl from Winterfell not only enjoyed him in GoT, but came back for more after he took over her town & castle. The captain’s daughter kept coming back for more, on her own ship, throughout the whole voyage. She wasn’t coerced in any way and seemed pretty excited to be with him, by accounts. Theon does not come off as a woman-hater in the books.* Read the account of him when he meets Asha. Did he act like a horny young jerk? Yes. It never seemed odd to me , that, because I imagine every boy who was his age & not a Stark was pretty much exactly like that in that medieval setting. And probably the peasant ones were leagues worse.

Anyway, he’s turned on by everything about Asha’s body, even the idea of her being pregnant makes him lustful. I doubt there were many things he hadnt done with his mouth by the time he was forced to abuse Jeyne. The fact that he had to go down on Jeyne in DwD is probably directly related to the bit about him holding down capp’y’s daughter’s head when he came during the bj in CoK.

And i hate that justification ...it’s obscene & stupid. ‘Selfish boy needs to be punished for that! I know! Let’s make him sexually abuse a child.

That is surely a fitting punishment.’

The fanboys, again, have howled for years that he’s a rapist because he did this. Well now they probably feel he got his just desserts, so to speak.

So , No; not poetic justice. More like twisted, fucked up mob justice.

* Misogynist? Of course! Who wasn't, other than the ...yeah, them.

So I'm drawing a distinction between a endemic misogynist & a true womanhater. I'm a feminist, I can do that. Nyaah.

[Kaitscralt]

I was worried about the Theon chapters after reading threads like this prior to reading the book. But then I didn't really notice anything too horrible, aside from the unnecessary oral GRRM added in, but even that was only referenced, not detailed. Maybe I am just a sociopath because I kept cringing with every page and then nothing really showed up.

I thought the chapters were pretty tame compared to some views of war-torn Riverlands we've had.

[Golden Skull]

I'm just going to throw it out there: the Bastard has been raping Theon.

Opinions?

[Kaitscralt]

I'm just going to throw it out there: the Bastard has been raping Theon.

Opinions?

Is there any textual evidence for this? Theon's thoughts never went this way.

[lady crackhead]

I'm just going to throw it out there: the Bastard has been raping Theon.

Opinions?

I'm just going to throw it out there that Theon's been raping Ramsay.

Opinions?

[Domenceus]

If you're going to quote me, krakenhead, don't misrepresent me. You need to read past the first sentence of each paragraph.

...seeing my own opinion of Theon become much more sympathetic in this book speaks to the power of the writing for me.

Right there I admit to disliking Theon at first, but coming around because of his character struggles in this book.

How easy would it have been to just give up, after all the physical and mental brutality he'd endured? How many of us in the modern day with modern comforts could have even hoped to have made it?

The first sentence was rhetorical. The second emphasizes my point: he went through a horrendous ordeal that many of us wouldn't have endured. I know I would be doubtful about my ability to get through that, and his character arc in this book forces me to ask myself these questions. Again, this is not the raving of an angry mob, this is thoughtful pondering about how strong he was.

And to see the chapter titles shift back and forth to signify his internal struggle to decide who he is - that is a classic and wonderful progression in stories from Les Mis ("Who am I? I'm Jean Valjean!") to Battlestar Galactica ("Razor" especially). With that leap from the wall, he embodied the courage and gallantry of Sansa's fantasy knights in expected subversive style. Ironically, he never did anything half so heroic when he had a whole body.

So by comparing Reek/Theon to Jean Valjean and characters from BSG (namely Adm. Cain and Kendra Shaw), I'm stringing him up and kicking him into the gutter? Riiiight. I'm comparing him to heroic or at least iron-willed characters who took risks and sometimes did questionable things, but found redemption in the end.

He did do terrible things, and may be considered the most treacherous of his generation. But the generations before had similarly infamous individuals who committed heinous acts. Can he salvage something good of his life? Has Bran seen and maybe even forgiven him?

Note I said "may be considered" and left that issue open. Is what he did notorious? Absolutely. Even though it seems Bolton burned Winterfell, Theon will be blamed for it by Westeros in history in all likelihood (depending on the outcome). Do I think he is? No. Again, I'm appreciating the possibilities for redemption, even by someone who would feel wronged by him (Bran).

I'm happy to have a thoughtful, insightful discussion on this, but I will not do so with someone who has so little respect for someone's written opinions as to misrepresent them.

[Alexia]

On a more base note, I find it ironic that the guy who enjoyed sticking his dick into any woman he could coerce (suggesting that he did nothing to please them) was reduced to having to please a woman with his mouth. Poetic justice?

I find this comment very creepy, to be honest. There are plenty of frat boy jackasses in the world but none of them deserve sexual abuse. Moreover, he was not pleasing a woman with his mouth, he was being forced to participate in the sexual abuse and humiliation of a woman in a way that was apparently supposed to degrade him as well. Gross. Not poetic, or anything of the sort. Poetic justice would have seen his head on Winterfell's walls in between the miller's boys.

I never quite felt sorry for him because of the things he'd done in the past. His treatment was horrendous, but then, I kept thinking of what he did to the little miller boys, and any budding sympathy died on the vine. I didn't think his conduct excused or justified what Ramsay did, but I didn't feel sorry for Theon.

FLOW, I think this is where you and I disagree in the other thread. I can feel complete sympathy, even for a villain. Theon did something terrible to the miller's boys, and deserves to die for it. But he doesn't deserve to fall into the hands of a greater monster than himself (and he was never really a monster, just an inept frat boy in over his head). I want quick and speedy deaths, not lingering torture and misery.

I even felt the tiniest bit of pity for Vargo Hoat, when he fell into Gregor Clegane's hands.

[lady crackhead]

If you're going to quote me, krakenhead, don't misrepresent me.

Domenceus, Domenceus; I used your words as a jumping off point for my thoughts. It wasn't a rebuttal. No need to get rebuttal hurt.

[Domenceus]

I find this comment very creepy, to be honest.

Comment edited because it was definitely not my intention. I was trying to bring some psychoanalysis to a very difficult scene and failed. Sorry for the discomfort.

[Domenceus]

Domenceus, Domenceus; I used your words as a jumping off point for my thoughts. It wasn't a rebuttal. No need to get rebuttal hurt.

What's frustrating is that the Reek chapters were probably the most powerful for me, and they inspired me to try to put into words the nuances of what went on. There is a lot of hostility on this topic and I'm really not trying to pick fights.

[lady crackhead]

an inept frat boy

Am I missing something here? Is this the worst thing you can call a guy on this board? A frat boy?

This isn't a byproduct of nerd cultures is it? Where the natural enemy of the fantasy nerd is a frat boy?

How is Theon a frat boy? Are we just equating getting laid with being a frat boy? Because surely that is a myth or you havent met many frat boys.

When i think of frat boys I think of unoriginal, uninteresting herd-mentality boys who've subscribed to brohiem culture, looking sloppy, acting sloppier, enjoying latent homosexuality while under the pretext of 'orders', and allowing other high-status boys to abuse them so they can moo along with the herd. Theon doesnt show any of those behavior before he's forced by Ramsay.

Can someone clear this up for me? Is it really true that Geo Martin cut out a scene where Ramsay forces Theon to eat an ookie cookie?

[lady crackhead]

What's frustrating is that the Reek chapters were probably the most powerful for me, and they inspired me to try to put into words the nuances of what went on. There is a lot of hostility on this topic and I'm really not trying to pick fights.

Youre misinterpreting. You did well. I enjoyed your post. Now stop fishing for compliments, Domenceus !

[lady crackhead]

Dreaded double post!

[rue721]

And one more question...Did Ramsay cut off Theons, uh, you know...His manhood? I couldn't tell if that was the case or not.

This was the most horrifying part of Theon's story, to me. I read it as: Ramsey had flayed Theon down there like he'd flayed Theon's fingers and toes. There were so many mentions of Reek not "really" being a man, he isn't able to "be" with women anymore, and there are some pretty explicit mentions like when he says he has "no..." or when he says he lost fingers and toes and "the other thing" (I can go back and look for page numbers if you guys want -- do you remember reading that, too?)...

Also, there was a moment when he was walking alone in the woods or on the wall at night, and heard someone playing a sad song -- it connected to him somehow? Made him feel sort of happy or more whole? To me, that was the most powerful moment in his POV chapters, and something about the melancholiness and wistfulness of that scene made me think he'd lost something essential to him...and to me, that confirmed my thought that he was physically "incomplete" in a way that went beyond missing a pinky toe.

I think that whole issue actually felt more powerful because GRRM didn't go into specifics about it (and I don't think I really could have taken it if he had).

I'm just going to throw it out there: the Bastard has been raping Theon.

Opinions?

I thought this was also very strongly implied. There were a lot of mentions of Theon being certain Ramsey would never cut out his tongue (which Ramsey at one point explicitly demands Theon to use to "pleasure" Jayne), Theon was terrified when Ramsey said he should come to his wedding night bedchamber, Theon also was terrified/resigned when thinking of how Ramsey would soon "tire" of Jayne and he'd come back "to his Reek," Theon mentions at one point (in disgust) that Ramsey makes *both* him and Jayne do things they don't want to, Theon gets very upset when Holly touches him, and it seems to be a constant issue in his mind that even in situations where he'd have wanted sex pre-torture that's not something he'd ever enjoy now. I don't think that last issue is just about his body, because he mentions things that he actually would still be able to do but says he can't/that those pleasures have been lost to him (like kissing or pulling a girl into his lap).

Also, in the scene where Ramsey forces Theon to "pleasure" Jayne, he's not just forcing Theon to abuse Jayne, he's also abusing Theon. That's an invasion of both of their bodies.

Personally, I don't think that Theon would have reacted differently if it were the real Arya instead of Jayne, because he already didn't want to do it with Jayne and only did because he was absolutely terrified. Why would he be less terrified if it were another girl? It was Ramsey who was forcing him to do what he was doing, and regardless of whether it was Jayne or Arya also in that room, Ramsey would still have been there, and he still would have broken Theon in the same way. I think it would possibly have been even more painful for Theon to have to do that to someone who by the end of his journey in ADWD he would consider his sister (than to do that to another girl), but I think he would still have had to do it.

Just because Ramsey is a bigger asshole doesn't mean that Theon was absolved of his sins.

I don't think that torture makes a person *better,* so I don't see Theon being tortured as some kind of redemption story. I do think that seeing him so totally broken, though, puts it into perspective (at least for me) how young he was before. I think that, before being tortured, Theon thought he understood what being a grown man was about -- being the strongest, fiercest, lewdest, most vigorous, etc -- and so he tried to be all those things. I think Ramsey taught him that in the end, those things are meaningless. You can be broken and torn apart and betrayed anyway. I think now maybe he'll rebuild his sense of what being a man/adult/human being is on firmer ground. I definitely don't think his story is over -- I think this is a rebirth for him, and I'm interested in seeing who he becomes.

Especially because I personally think that suffering isn't purifying, it's debilitating. I think Theon actually *is* less than before, but maybe he's also more cautious and more open to learning, so he'll eventually be able to become more.

Anyway, I thought his chapters were fascinating, but they *were* also emotionally intense for me to read. I feel really torn in my feelings about Reek, because on the one hand, when Theon was more innocent he was also much crueler, but on the other hand it's still upsetting to see someone's innocence destroyed.

One thing I was really unclear on and that I think GRRM handled really well was: how sane is Theon? Most of the time it seems as though he's acting sensibly from within his own POV, but it's hard to tell what his behavior looks like from the outside. Like the whole thing with Able and his women -- do they exist, or at least do they exist in the way that Theon presented them? Their motivations were super vague, nobody ever seemed to notice that they were suddenly all over Theon, their plan was a suicide mission and they all just happened to melt away before the final escape...I don't know, because I don't think it's usually GRRM's style, but if I had to guess I'd say that Theon invented some allies so he'd feel strong enough to rescue Jayne and escape from Ramsey himself, and that he was actually working alone. In just the same way that Theon's name kept changing in all his chapter titles, I wonder if *he* was the entertainer (Able), the hot slut (Holly), the mocking killer (Rowan), etc, and all those different "allies" were just different facets of Theon's personality -- the different facets that he used to make his escape.

[rue721]

When i think of frat boys I think of unoriginal, uninteresting herd-mentality boys who've subscribed to brohiem culture, looking sloppy, acting sloppier, enjoying latent homosexuality while under the pretext of 'orders', and allowing other high-status boys to abuse them so they can moo along with the herd. Theon doesnt show any of those behavior before he's forced by Ramsay.

I think that, pre-Ramsey, Theon's idea of manhood was (relatively, considering how different his world is from ours ;) ) similar to that of frat boys': a "real" man is the strongest, drunkest, funniest, most reckless guy -- and he's the one who gets all the money and all the girls.

I don't think that's who Theon was or who frat boys actually are, I just think that's (generally/stereotypically) who they aspire to be, or who they think they're supposed to be. And I don't think it's a crazy comparison -- frat boys are of basically the same age and class in our world as Theon is in his. There are actually a lot of frat boys in my building, and honestly, they're *kids.* By and large, they've never been in charge of their own lives before, and they're still at the mercy of their parents -- for financial and emotional support. I think, pre-Ramsey, Theon was a kid, too.

I think Ramsey is an extreme and extremely malignant version of that "alpha" ideal, and being victimized by him not only showed Theon that his previous idea of being a man was hallow, I think it also showed him that if a real man is all those things, he'll never be a real man again. It's sort of like Buddy's story in "Wall Street," but with more flaying and less number crunching! :P