(ADWD SPOILERS) Reek Chapters

[Guest]

Ten years is an awful long time, & for a child to grow up in that way, with no warmth, under a real & constant threat, as an outsider to everything & everyone. He was close to Robb, he had loyalty to Robb --until his real family , Balon, asserted his will. Im sure its tempting to stamp your foot & pout over how Theon was so horribly unfair to Robb & the Starks, etc. But in that world, where family is everything, blood determines who you are, ... how could he have steered a different course at that point?

:agree:

[L13]

You don't think he was disloyal to the Starks after they had pretty much raised him and provided for him?

And as far as the torture goes, I think we can all agree that Ramsay Bolton is the biggest d-bag ever. Not saying I agree with what Bolton did to him, but it was Karma for Theon, don't you think?

As Theon himself notes, Ned Stark always maintained an emotional distance between himself and Theon because he knew he might have to put Theon to the sword one day. That does not sound like a warm and nurturing family environment to me; it sounds like an unacknowledged undercurrent of tension running through every aspect of Theon's childhood.

Theon was a hostage, plain and simple. That's why the Starks provided for him. Yes, he played with the Stark children, but he was never one of them in any of the ways that mattered. He doesn't owe House Stark his loyalty (even though, in my opinion, he has actually been quite loyal to the Starks, given the circumstances). What's more, he was looking for his real family's respect and approval, and his actions make complete sense when you remember that.

On a tangential note, Jon's refusal to eat & socialise with his men because of the power he had over them was strongly reminiscent of Ned's leadership style (and Ned's treatment of Theon in particular). The parallel became even stronger when his sense of duty/detachment, which he so obviously picked up from his father, eventually led to his downfall, just like it had with Ned. Well played, GRRM, well played.

[Brienne the Beauty]

(And its more likely that Balon probably had to pay for Theon while he lived at Wintefell. )

Very unlikely I'd say. That seems way too moneygrubbing for noble Ned Stark.

[lady crackhead]

Very unlikely I'd say. That seems way too moneygrubbing for noble Ned Stark.

Oh please. Ned is all about being ethical & just. It's the principle that counts. Balon caused the trouble, Balon would be the one to foot the bill for Theon's care.

[Greyjoy Rebellion]

It really would be out of character for Ned to do anything uncustomary in westeros, whether or not balon would be required to compensate Ned, so I doubt there would be any untoward resentment on that point regardless.

[Blaine]

Oh please. Ned is all about being ethical & just. It's the principle that counts. Balon caused the trouble, Balon would be the one to foot the bill for Theon's care.

I really like the idea of Ned sending men to Pyke once a month to grab some gold, lest Balon become a deadbeat dad.

[lady crackhead]

I really like the idea of Ned sending men to Pyke once a month to grab some gold, lest Balon become a deadbeat dad.

Balon probably had to send someone to Winterfell with a sack twice a year or something...didnt I read that Theon used to get some letters from his family, but they dried up over time? Balon probably was a deadbeat dad ;p

Not Blaine:

Advocating rape or genital mutilation is offlimits.

Which makes it bizarre that you censored the part of my post that made the exact point you are making. Ive never advocated that shit for anyone! Even fictional anyones!

Blaine!

And you could have fooled me that advocating rape & genital mutilation is off limits, because there are a lot of posts on this forum made by people who advocate/d it for Theon. And worse!

See, I think you could say the GRRM did the opposite. He created a situation where you've got this character who does something irredeemable. He sacks Winterfell, the seat of all the readers' sympathies in the book.

Then, when we pick back up Theon's tale, he takes that character and shows us how truly un-evil and sad he really is. Any desire to see Theon suffer for his actions goes away pretty quickly as the reader is, as you said, kind of assaulted by these vivid descriptions of Ramsay's torturing. If I were the type to suspect GRRM's motives in writing in that way, I would think he was making a point about the reality of torture vs. the desire for revenge. Not to satisfy fanboy applause, but to subvert any desire for such a thing with the reality and brutality of violence, which is a theme throughout ASOIAF

Blaine,

First, Do you need a tissue for your eye? Second, I would like to believe that.

I thought of that, you know; Im not like that guy that followed Buzz Lightyear around calling him a fraud. I do give Martin the benefit of the doubt, usually.

I wish it were so, what you say. But ...I don’t think so. Not totally.

I do think he was killing two birds with one stone: wringing out moans of sympathy for a baddie, as is his patented move, while also pandering to the people who wanted Theon’s dick ripped off & stuffed into his mouth. Martin almost went that far, but other characters needed to be able to tell what Theon was saying when he talked for the plot to move forward. Although he probably just nodded through Lady Dustin's hymen adventure story.

When you read the account of torture that the character is put through supposedly for his unremarkable brutality as compared to what else goes on in these books, you know then that he is not being punished for that so much as having offended the resident holy icons, the Starks. When you realize that the lovingly detailed punishment you are reading about has gone as far as did, you realize that other characters would not fare the same kind of punishment that Theon does in this book, despite them partaking in the killing of innocents & some pretty remarkable violence. This double-standard has been pointed out in more than a few posts over the board. Earlier in the thread, I was censored for suggesting the same thing. For making the point that it would have never been acceptable to abuse another character so outrageously as Theon's has been in this book, for much the same moral failings.

Ive been around the board for years & rare was the post where the poster’s sentiment wasn’t that Theon be slowly flayed, chopped to pieces by Jon, kicked in the balls by Rickon, etc, ad nauseum. And there was frequently a sexually sadistic flavor to the gleeful call for punishment. Gregor could rape & murder all the innocent women that he could get his hands on, on his rampage across the land, but I dont recall anyone focusing on thinking up punishment for his genitalia. Theon came in a girl’s mouth & the posters raged about how he should have his dick removed.

Ok, so far this argument can be twisted both our ways. But to me, I cant overlook the fact that FFC was abysmal; widely panned. He took a big hit. And it must have dawned on him that he needed to give the fans what they wanted in this book, I really think he went into it with this idea & not the sentiment that he was going to chastise them.

After the struggle he had writing it, I think it also became obvious to him that DwD was not going to be favorably received, either. It seems calculated along the same lines to me then, that he dedicated the book to his fanboys. And really, he went a conventional route with the Theon story. We were all left with the idea that he was being flayed after SoS. Martin could have spun it half a dozen ways when we picked up Theon's story in DwD that would have been more adventurous & exciting -possibly over more parts of the book- & pushed plot/s forward at the same time, but he went the route he did... and took it to those lengths. It just smacks of pandering, in light of all the trouble he's having with writing the last two books; this one , again, is glaringly sub par and he is going to need all the fanboy goodwill he can whip up.

As for the idea that Martin is showing the reality of violence as a deterrent... well, its like this: Sit down & let me show you some explicit rapes in order to prove the point that no one should rape. ...Showing violence is always a double-edged sword, because it appeals to the basest instincts in all of us. There’s a very valid argument that these books wouldnt be as entertaining if they contained no violence, and Martin knows that. I never have gotten the feeling, despite what he may say, that Martin writes what he writes as a deterrent or because it has some moral lesson contained in it. I think he peppers his stories with violence because he finds it interesting to do so.

[Lyra Targaryen]

So let me get this straight, you think Ned & Cat adopted poor Theon when they took him away from his real family back on Pyke?

They "provided" for him because they had to; he was their hostage & I'm sure there are rules to hostage taking when you broker a peace settlement, such as don't starve or abuse the hostage. (And its more likely that Balon probably had to pay for Theon while he lived at Wintefell. )

Theon wasnt adopted by the Starks & he wasnt at Winterfell Camp for Orphan Boys. He was a hostage. The soul purpose of being a hostage is to ensure that the Lord that caused trouble wont do so again, otherwise the penalty is severe --i.e., the hostage loses life or limbs, what have you. Ned gave him quarters & everything befitting a little prince like access to hos maester, etc, but he didnt treat him like his own children. He wasnt warm to him. (Neither was Cat. No surprise there.) And Theon himself -who was remembered by Asha as being a shy child- was afraid of Ned. Ned had invaded with Robert & put down Balon's rebellion, killing his brothers, humiliating his father. Theon himself mentions that he was afraid of his stern manner & longsword.

Ten years is an awful long time, & for a child to grow up in that way, with no warmth, under a real & constant threat, as an outsider to everything & everyone. He was close to Robb, he had loyalty to Robb --until his real family , Balon, asserted his will. Im sure its tempting to stamp your foot & pout over how Theon was so horribly unfair to Robb & the Starks, etc. But in that world, where family is everything, blood determines who you are, ... how could he have steered a different course at that point?

I know he was a hostage, and even if he didn't particularly like Ned and Cat, I think he at the very least formed bonds with the Stark children. Robb most importantly. Robb didn't have anything to do with the fact that Ned decided to take on Theon as a hostage.

[Lyra Targaryen]

So let me get this straight, you think Ned & Cat adopted poor Theon when they took him away from his real family back on Pyke?

They "provided" for him because they had to; he was their hostage & I'm sure there are rules to hostage taking when you broker a peace settlement, such as don't starve or abuse the hostage. (And its more likely that Balon probably had to pay for Theon while he lived at Wintefell. )

Theon wasnt adopted by the Starks & he wasnt at Winterfell Camp for Orphan Boys. He was a hostage. The soul purpose of being a hostage is to ensure that the Lord that caused trouble wont do so again, otherwise the penalty is severe --i.e., the hostage loses life or limbs, what have you. Ned gave him quarters & everything befitting a little prince like access to hos maester, etc, but he didnt treat him like his own children. He wasnt warm to him. (Neither was Cat. No surprise there.) And Theon himself -who was remembered by Asha as being a shy child- was afraid of Ned. Ned had invaded with Robert & put down Balon's rebellion, killing his brothers, humiliating his father. Theon himself mentions that he was afraid of his stern manner & longsword.

Ten years is an awful long time, & for a child to grow up in that way, with no warmth, under a real & constant threat, as an outsider to everything & everyone. He was close to Robb, he had loyalty to Robb --until his real family , Balon, asserted his will. Im sure its tempting to stamp your foot & pout over how Theon was so horribly unfair to Robb & the Starks, etc. But in that world, where family is everything, blood determines who you are, ... how could he have steered a different course at that point?

I know he was a hostage, and even if he didn't particularly like Ned and Cat, I think he at the very least formed bonds with the Stark children. Robb most importantly. Robb didn't have anything to do with the fact that Ned decided to take on Theon as a hostage.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

They "provided" for him because they had to; he was their hostage & I'm sure there are rules to hostage taking when you broker a peace settlement, such as don't starve or abuse the hostage. (And its more likely that Balon probably had to pay for Theon while he lived at Wintefell. )

Oh please, let the DJ spin the sad songs just for poor Theon! Balon is the one he should be resenting here, not the Starks. I'm sure hostages got much worse treatments in other noble households. Theon had the run of the place. He was treated with dignity and honor, and yes, I feel like they treated him like part of the family, though not one of their children. He seems to have gotten better treatment from Cat than Jon did.

Ten years is an awful long time, & for a child to grow up in that way, with no warmth, under a real & constant threat, as an outsider to everything & everyone.

This view is simply not supported by the text. Theon himself says that the Starks were the only family he ever knew and that he regretted betraying them. He was not without warmth and was not under constant threat. He was, by his own admission, happy there. It was his own family's cold and forbidding reception of him, and his displacement in the uncertain political landscape post-Ned and Robb that led him to make the poor choice he made. The Starks are not to blame for their own victimization here, and I think, now that all his vanity and arrogance have been stripped away, Theon would agree.

He was close to Robb, he had loyalty to Robb --until his real family , Balon, asserted his will. Im sure its tempting to stamp your foot & pout over how Theon was so horribly unfair to Robb & the Starks, etc. But in that world, where family is everything, blood determines who you are, ... how could he have steered a different course at that point?

He could have steered a different course by thinking for himself and doing what he thought was right, not what his jerk ass father told him. Theon was not much of an independent thinker until the end of this book. He has learned a lot and is more complex than he is being given credit for. Theon was not the victim at Winterfell; he WAS the victim and Dreadfort, and now he understands the difference. It was a horrendously tough lesson and I give him a lot of credit for having the courage to learn it.

[lady crackhead]

I know he was a hostage, and even if he didn't particularly like Ned and Cat, I think he at the very least formed bonds with the Stark children. Robb most importantly. Robb didn't have anything to do with the fact that Ned decided to take on Theon as a hostage.

I thought you wanted him to be grateful that he was eating Stark food?

Robb was closest to his age, but still about 4 years younger. He was probably more like a tag along little brother that Theon could tell his racy stories to. Theon himself says felt affection towards Robb ,as of a younger brother. He didnt form any bonds with the others, not close ones anyway. They were too young, for one thing. Cat & Ned, considering how they knew he was a hostage & kept their emotional distance from him, probably also had the other children do so, too. How traumatic for them would it be if he was really close to them as a brother & then Balon kicked up enough shit for Theon to have to lose his head? How would Ned ever explain that to them?

Theon was an adult by the time we meet him. He knows , even if he hasnt concretely thought it out maybe, that Ned would hold his freedom for a long time, even dictate his life in so far as his marriage to whom & where he should live, etc. They arent sending him back home to Pyke any time soon, that;s for sure. Theon also knows that Robb, his foster brother, holds that power over him after Ned dies. I think his affection for Robb actually tamped those unpleasant thoughts down...until Rob stupidly ignored Cat's advice & sent Theon back home, where of course his dad exerted power over him.

[lady crackhead]

Oh please....{blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah} ...and I give him a lot of credit for having the courage to learn it.

WaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahilovetheStarks !

Are you for real? Im not wasting my energy on one of these types of posts. I'll let someone else fillet your arguments like a monkfish.

Edited to say: I was tired & had to go sleepytime. FF to my compliments.

[Tengil of Nangiala]

I have never despised Theon as some may do, but I've never really liked him either. But the thing is that he is probably a good person who is just hopelesly lost in his soul and mind. When he took Winterfell I was as devastated as any man who favors the Starks, but I still feel some kind of empathy for Theon Turncloak. The Reek-chapters almost made me cry, and I'm starting to think that Martin has a heart as cold as the wall itself. The chapters were great though, no arguing there!

Also, I can't help but feeling that Theon will somehow survive all the way despite that no one likes him at all. If he would emerge as a hero in the final battle or something I think I might actually cry for him for real.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

WaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahilovetheStarks !

Are you for real? Im not wasting my energy on one of these types of posts. I'll let someone else fillet your arguments like a monkfish.

I'd infinitely prefer to be a hostage of the Starks than the Greyjoys, wouldn't you? Or, say, the Boltons?

In case Martin didn't make it blindingly obvious, I'll try to: Theon was a hostage twice, once at Winterfell and once at Dreadfort. He had some petty resentments and egoism problems at Winterfell, as well as identity issues, so he betrayed Winterfell. Then he was a hostage at Dreadfort and found out what it was REALLY like to be hostage of people who don't give a damn about you. This led him to look back on Winterfell as the happy place it was for him, overall. The parallelism is so blatant that it's hard to miss.

Yes, I like the Starks. The Greyjoys are mostly assholes and the Boltons are psychopaths. Theon found out these distinctions very painfully. I'd like you to try to fillet my argument. I see you didn't try, just made insulting comments. This is a character in the book, and I'm offering literary analysis. You might try not taking it so personally.

[Kaede]

Saying this here because the other topic was pretty far back by the time I saw it…the comments about Theon being too broken to survive have been annoying me ever since the first Reek chapter was released, but lately I’ve found myself getting truly upset about it. Probably because I’ve just realized that if Theon does die, it might come across as supporting that view. I’ve always thought his chances of survival were slim because he’s not one of the original POV characters, and he seems like part of a subplot that will end sooner or later. But now I’m having trouble thinking of a way GRRM could kill him without leaving open the interpretation that death was the best ending he could have gotten after going through all this trauma. Even if he accomplishes something great and dies heroically, that issue will be nagging at me, and losing your favorite character before the end of the series is bad enough without worrying about whether there’s some ugly message behind it.

I can’t help thinking of the scene where Bran overhears the Karstark boys whispering about how he must be too craven to commit suicide, because surely nobody would want to live like that. <_< But I haven’t seen many people hoping for Bran, Jaime, Sandor, Varys, Dagmer Cleftjaw, or Three-Finger Hobb to be euthanized because of missing and dysfunctional body parts, so I’m wondering if people think it’s somehow more acceptable to say things like that about emotional trauma?

I know it’s partly just that people were disturbed by Theon’s suffering and want him to be at peace, but I still think these comments are ill considered. I get the impression that there are a lot of people who have gone from hating Theon to pitying him without actually liking anything about him besides his tragic attachment to the Starks. So now that he’s come to terms with his Stark issues, they can’t see any other purpose for him, especially since not many people are invested in the fate of the Iron Islands. To be honest, I preferred the hate. Thinking that Theon should die to pay for his crimes seems more…I don’t know, respectful…to me than expressing “sympathy” by saying you want to see him put him out of his misery.

I’d like to point out that Theon has plenty of opportunities to kill himself or provoke someone else into killing him, but he never goes through with it. Then, when finally presented with a chance for him and Jeyne to escape with their lives, he takes it. All of which would seem to indicate that he doesn’t want to die, and I don’t think it’s anyone else’s place to judge whether his life is worth living.

As for the original question of whether I found these chapters hard to read…well, I’d already read most of the first and worst one three years ago. I remember freaking out over the earliest spoilers, but when I read the excerpt for myself, I felt a lot better about it. He can take my fingers and my toes, he can put out my eyes and slice my ears off, but he cannot take my wits unless I let him. Everything Ramsay did was meant to convince Theon that he had absolute power and could take whatever he wanted. If Theon still had resistant thoughts and retained some sense of control after all that, then Ramsay had failed to permanently break him. Overall, I was impressed by the strength of his will to survive and finally felt justified in liking him. (I’d been embarrassed about it before.) When reading the actual book, I was pretty horrified by the implied castration. By the end, though, I was so proud of him that it no longer bothered me much. I love how he ends up smiling through his broken teeth, like his mentor Dagmer.

[iamthedave]

Oh please, let the DJ spin the sad songs just for poor Theon! Balon is the one he should be resenting here, not the Starks. I'm sure hostages got much worse treatments in other noble households. Theon had the run of the place. He was treated with dignity and honor, and yes, I feel like they treated him like part of the family, though not one of their children. He seems to have gotten better treatment from Cat than Jon did.

I don't recall reading how Balon invaded his own castle, killed Theon's elder brothers and took him prisoner to ensure Balon's good behaviour.

Was that in an early version of the text that never reached Europe?

And in fact noble hostages are almost always treated well. Sansa Stark would actually have been treated very well in Kings Landing if not for the fact Joffrey was a mean, spiteful piece of crap. It's one of the basic rules: you treat nobles well.

But to claim he was treated like part of the family is a stretch too far. Theon always knew he wasn't one of the Starks. His entire plotline hinges on his final, teary admission: I always wanted to be one of them. But he never was, never could be, and would never be allowed to be.

Look at it this way: Theon sometimes reminisces about Robb, and even before Dance obviously regretted betraying him. Can you point me to POV chapters from the other Stark kids showing much in the way of fondness for Theon? I can't recall any. He doesn't even feature in the remembrances of most of them, and they certainly don't have the sort of fond childish remembrances they have with each other. There's no evidence at all, really, that Theon was treated with great warmth or accepted into the family.

This view is simply not supported by the text. Theon himself says that the Starks were the only family he ever knew and that he regretted betraying them. He was not without warmth and was not under constant threat. He was, by his own admission, happy there. It was his own family's cold and forbidding reception of him, and his displacement in the uncertain political landscape post-Ned and Robb that led him to make the poor choice he made. The Starks are not to blame for their own victimization here, and I think, now that all his vanity and arrogance have been stripped away, Theon would agree.

The only family he ever knew. That in itself explains why he turns out so fucked up. He never had a family. The only family he had was always prepared to kill him if necessary. Yes he was under constant threat and he knew it. But yes, he has happy memories of Winterfell. But his memories are mostly of the place, not of the people.

I can't think of many people in Winterfell he clearly cared for, certainly not the Starks. He liked Robb, yes, and he liked the smaller folk who lived there who taught him, but see little sign of him loving the lords.

He could have steered a different course by thinking for himself and doing what he thought was right, not what his jerk ass father told him. Theon was not much of an independent thinker until the end of this book. He has learned a lot and is more complex than he is being given credit for. Theon was not the victim at Winterfell; he WAS the victim and Dreadfort, and now he understands the difference. It was a horrendously tough lesson and I give him a lot of credit for having the courage to learn it.

Robb could have steered a different course by thinking for himself and not doing what he thought his father would want him to do. I guess in that way there's a parallel between the two friends: both are undone by trying to live up to their father's example.

Theon was a victim at Winterfell, too, but not half as much as he was in the Dreadfort. His decision to take Winterfell was a desperate attempt to reconcile who he thought he was with who it seemed he had to be. His desperation to cling to a seat he could never hold was a clear sign of that, too.

Theon hasn't learned that he deserved what happened to him. He's learned who he really is, which is a completely different and far more important lesson. His entire plot in Dance, Theon is STILL wrestling with identity, with defining himself, the exact problem which led to his Winterfell folly.

Theon was a hostage twice, once at Winterfell and once at Dreadfort. He had some petty resentments and egoism problems at Winterfell, as well as identity issues, so he betrayed Winterfell. Then he was a hostage at Dreadfort and found out what it was REALLY like to be hostage of people who don't give a damn about you. This led him to look back on Winterfell as the happy place it was for him, overall. The parallelism is so blatant that it's hard to miss.

I think this is actually where your argument suffers from bias. Yes there's parallelism, but you make a vast leap of assumption as to what that parallelism means. This isn't a story of parallels, both imprisonments put increasing pressure on Theon's personality and cause him to ultimately establish himself.

Under the Starks he was already beginning to be confused, and that confusion evinced itself when he returned 'home' to Pyke and was violently rejected by his only blood family. His return to Winterfell, his degradation there and his imprisonment in the Dreadfort caused his personality to shatter altogether, and he had to rebuild it from scratch.

But note where his story ends. It's not in Winterfell. It's not weeping in the wierwood, or saying sorry to the memory of Robb Stark.

It's smiling at his sister, telling her you have to remember your name.

Even if Theon wanted to be a Stark, he isn't. He's a Greyjoy, and it's to the Greyjoys he must return. But the difference is he'll be going back knowing who he is this time, not as some amalgamation of different and competing ideals, but as Theon Greyjoy, the man who lost who he was and found it again.

[rue721]

I don’t think it’s anyone else’s place to judge whether his life is worth living.

On the one hand, I agree absolutely that just because you're not perfect physically, you don't need to just die (!). I'm also very interested in how Theon adjusts to life post-Boltons, and how his way of thinking has changed because of what he's gone through. How will he make battle plans or strategize now? How will he deal with the problem of his stench and other physical issues? Honestly, as I'm interested in how he deals with his "new" body as I am in how he deals with his "new" feelings about trust and duty and glory and all that. And, yes, I do watch quite a lot of Discovery Health, why do you ask? :P

On the other hand, while I don't need him to be tortured *to death,* I do think it would be cheap and disrespectful for the torture to have ennobled him somehow. What Bolton did to him wasn't meant to make him *better.* Hurting people doesn't make them *better.* My issue is actually with the idea that his suffering is somehow redemptive. He wasn't tortured because he "deserved it," he was tortured because Ramsey is a horrible human being who likes hurting people, and he had the ability to hurt Theon. I admit that personally, redemption stories don't do anything for me in general. But I think it's especially horrifying to paint Ramsey's cruelties to Theon as somehow for the greater good of ennobling Theon. If Theon *does* become a better person after leaving Ramsey, it's because of *Theon's* strength and it's despite the horrors that Ramsey wreaked on him, not because of them (imo).

But to claim he was treated like part of the family is a stretch too far. Theon always knew he wasn't one of the Starks. His entire plotline hinges on his final, teary admission: I always wanted to be one of them. But he never was, never could be, and would never be allowed to be.

Even though I found Theon frustratingly callow and naive and arrogant in the earlier books (though I confess, I've always liked his chapters), he has always seemed like a pretty normal young person to me. He dreams of gold, girls and glory, he thinks that's what he's supposed to dream about, and, when he gets into a tight spot with his family and feels the need to prove himself, he makes an ill-conceived and desperate attempt to get those things. He made some brutal mistakes, but the world he's in is a brutal place. I think that, in the context of his world, his mistakes were heart-breakingly stupid and naive rather they were truly cruel, and that his aims were always understandable.

In terms of his connection to the Starks, I don't think he owed them any loyalty, any more than they owed him loyalty. They knew they'd kill him if they needed to, and he knew he should have nurtured the same feeling toward them. So when he did decide that he needed to take Winterfell, I didn't feel that it was any worse of a betrayal than if Ned had decided to behead Theon way back when because of something his father might have done.

Still, to me, his living with the Starks wasn't a horrific situation -- it seemed to me to be the modern equivalent of being sent away to boarding school. Theon's life was theoretically under threat, but to be honest, I don't think he was in any greater danger than he would have been if he'd been living with the Greyjoys (probably less). Theon wasn't in ultimate control over his own destiny at Winterfell, but who is? All in all, it seemed like a fairly sensible arrangement, and one that would just be repeated upon Theon's marriage -- except in that case, the bride would be the hostage instead of Theon, and for her entire life, and she would have no physical rights at all.

Theon himself says that the Starks were the only family he ever knew and that he regretted betraying them.

The Starks seem to me to have been good people, etc. And I think it would be hard to live with a family for an extended period and feel no loyalty towards them -- even if those feelings don't make sense politically. But I can't help but remember that Theon comes up with this sentiment in the same small number of chapters where he again and again reassures Ramsey that he's "his."

I do wonder about Theon's current ideas about loyalty, because I'd think that they're all pretty mixed up at this point. Especially considering the fact that his chances of marriage and children are basically null at this point, and there may be other physical issues that alienate him from others on a pretty basic level. What level of loyalty should he be expected to give others and for others to give him, especially considering he's likely unable to form a family of his own?

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I don't recall reading how Balon invaded his own castle, killed Theon's elder brothers and took him prisoner to ensure Balon's good behaviour.

When you reave up and down the coast, killing the men and raping and carrying off the women for slaves, then yes, rather than kill you they might be nice and take your younger son as a hostage. I mean, unless your contention is that the Starks should have lay back and let Greyjoy happen to their coastal villages. Balon was the aggressor in that war IMO.

And in fact noble hostages are almost always treated well. Sansa Stark would actually have been treated very well in Kings Landing if not for the fact Joffrey was a mean, spiteful piece of crap. It's one of the basic rules: you treat nobles well.

Hmmm. We see many noble hostages being treated horribly: Tyrion in the sky cells at the Vale. Jaime getting his hand cut off. Sansa's mistreatment by Joffrey. Anyone captured by Roose or Ramsay. I could go on. In comparison, life with the Starks was a frolic in a field of daisies. So I don't buy this "noble hostages are treated well." You're diminishing the Starks' good treatment of Theon to make a rhetorical point but I don't think it's accurate.

But to claim he was treated like part of the family is a stretch too far. Theon always knew he wasn't one of the Starks. His entire plotline hinges on his final, teary admission: I always wanted to be one of them. But he never was, never could be, and would never be allowed to be.

False dichotomy. I think they treated him like one of the family AND he felt alienated from them because he knew he wasn't and never would be. Though in his own words:

I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children.

(p. 616)

Not, I was a hostage of the Starks, I could never be one of them. No, it's I was his ward, they were my brothers and sisters. It wasn't an indictment of the Starks that he could never be a Stark, though apparently he felt like one of them, at least for a time. It's just the way it is. For a hostage to oactually WANT t be part of his captor's family and feel in some sense he was is a tribute to how well he was treated. The cruelty here is in the system that caused him to be taken hostage in the first place, not in the home where he lived. Now why did the Greyjoys treat him like shit, when his exile was not his fault or doing?

Look at it this way: Theon sometimes reminisces about Robb, and even before Dance obviously regretted betraying him. Can you point me to POV chapters from the other Stark kids showing much in the way of fondness for Theon? I can't recall any. He doesn't even feature in the remembrances of most of them, and they certainly don't have the sort of fond childish remembrances they have with each other. There's no evidence at all, really, that Theon was treated with great warmth or accepted into the family.

First of all, how many of the Starks have had the leisure time to reminisce fondly about anything? They have all been fighting for their lives and identities. Theon thinks about them b/c he betrayed them and he's back in the place where it happened. If they went to Pyke, I'm sure they'd think of him, but I imagine it would be along the lines of "Fucking Theon sacked Winterfell."

The only family he ever knew. That in itself explains why he turns out so fucked up. He never had a family. The only family he had was always prepared to kill him if necessary. Yes he was under constant threat and he knew it. But yes, he has happy memories of Winterfell. But his memories are mostly of the place, not of the people.

This is not true. He thinks fondly of all the Stark children ("I was their friend and brother"), specifically Robb and Arya in this book, and is glad he didn't kill Bran and Rickon. I also have to say, I wonder what Ned would have done to Theon if he was called on to kill him. He balked at killing Dany b/c she was a child. Would he really have killed the child Theon? Yes, I agree Theon's inability to form a stable identity was a big problem for him, but the problem was not with how the Starks treated him, but was certainly exacerbated by how the Greyjoys received him on his return. He had no Starks to live with, and the Greyjoys had contempt for him.

It is interesting to think about how being a Stark hostage strangely prepared him for life as a Bolton hostage. At Winterfell, he had free rein to run around and do whatever he wanted, but he never fled back to Pyke or tried to. He was on an invisible leash, and stayed on it even if no one was holding it, and his own family wrote him off as if he would never return, and perhaps he knew it. He behaved the same way at Dreadfort after his initial escape attempt. Perhaps part of him had been conditioned not to be psychologically free, which I agree is a pretty terrible legacy. I guess my feeling is that I can't condemn the Starks for their role in it, b/c it was the natural consequence of his father's actions and the system for dealing with it, and they made it as not oppressive as they could under the circumstances. It was better than what was done to the Targaryen children after their father lost a war.

Robb could have steered a different course by thinking for himself and not doing what he thought his father would want him to do. I guess in that way there's a parallel between the two friends: both are undone by trying to live up to their father's example.

I don't think Robb did anything he would regret later except the colossally stupid decision to marry for love. If he had avoided that, he might well have been King in the North. I think he did steer his own course. Theon flailed around trying to get approval from people who were never going to approve of him, and destroyed himself.

Theon was a victim at Winterfell, too, but not half as much as he was in the Dreadfort. His decision to take Winterfell was a desperate attempt to reconcile who he thought he was with who it seemed he had to be. His desperation to cling to a seat he could never hold was a clear sign of that, too.

But whose victim was he at Winterfell? I would contend he was a victim of his father's bloodthirsty ambition, and the social system that dictated the taking of hostages, in a more esoteric sense, but he was not explicitly victimized by his captors. They treated him better than his own family did. His decision to take Winterfell was his way of trying to assert his identity, but it was the wrong way. It would be sad if it didn't hurt so many innocent people.

Theon hasn't learned that he deserved what happened to him. He's learned who he really is, which is a completely different and far more important lesson. His entire plot in Dance, Theon is STILL wrestling with identity, with defining himself, the exact problem which led to his Winterfell folly.

I never said he deserved what happened to him. No one deserves that. I think it put all his other issues into a very, um, stark perspective. I totally agree that he had an identity problem, one that he tried to solve by sacking Winterfell, but it backfired b/c it was the wrong way to assert his identity, mostly b/c he didn't know what it was.

I think this is actually where your argument suffers from bias. Yes there's parallelism, but you make a vast leap of assumption as to what that parallelism means. This isn't a story of parallels, both imprisonments put increasing pressure on Theon's personality and cause him to ultimately establish himself.

I see what you're saying, that the parallelism is secondary to the identity issue for Theon. I think you're right about that. But I think the contrast between the two hostage situations has been very instructive to Theon about what kind of person he was, and who he wants to be.

Under the Starks he was already beginning to be confused, and that confusion evinced itself when he returned 'home' to Pyke and was violently rejected by his only blood family. His return to Winterfell, his degradation there and his imprisonment in the Dreadfort caused his personality to shatter altogether, and he had to rebuild it from scratch.

I'm sorry, I fail to see how he was "degraded" at Winterfell. He was conditioned by captivity to be a captive, in a general sense, but that would have happened wherever he was held. I think he thought he was degraded, and then he found out what real degradation was, and the revelation was very, very instructive to him, which is why I mentioned the parallelism.

But note where his story ends. It's not in Winterfell. It's not weeping in the wierwood, or saying sorry to the memory of Robb Stark.

It's smiling at his sister, telling her you have to remember your name.

Even if Theon wanted to be a Stark, he isn't. He's a Greyjoy, and it's to the Greyjoys he must return. But the difference is he'll be going back knowing who he is this time, not as some amalgamation of different and competing ideals, but as Theon Greyjoy, the man who lost who he was and found it again.

His sister, also rejected by her own family. Note that he says, "Theon. My name is Theon." Not "Theon GREYJOY." I don't think he's going to embrace being a Greyjoy in the sense that it is defined by Euron and Victarion, but I could be wrong. He could break in many different ways out of this situation, but I hope he doesn't go back to being an arrogant, power hungry jerk like his father and uncles. I really hope for better for him.

I also want to say thanks for this exchange, iamthedave. Your take on it and my comments forced me to think harder about Theon how his captivity at Winterfell affected him. It's been an interesting topic for me and deepened my understanding of the character.

[Gilgoroth]

Long time lurker, I have read a number of great posts here! When it comes to Theon, I have always had him in a more neutral corner in regards to favourable or non-favourable characters. That being said, I don't really have a lot attachment to him, though this was a lot worse than I had expected. I think his time at Winterfell, even if forced on him, was not as bad as it could have been and certainly not as bad as his current state. What happened to him is brutal and cruel, even so I don't pity him or find him suddenly more interesting. I do look forward to seeing where his arc takes him, he has gone through some gnarly transitions and I am sure GRRM is not quite done yet.

[Branna]

I found his chapters fascinating to read, though they were heartbreaking. These were some of the best chapters in the book. He has suffered enough....in my eyes he has been redeemed...and as long as he doesn`t do anything else that would be old school Theon (which I don`t think he will...he has already realised he really just wanted to be a Stark all along, he`s getting cozy with the old gods, and he hasn`t got a shred of arrogance left in him)--then he is fine. Great story arc for him.