(ADWD SPOILERS) Reek Chapters

[Knight of Ashes]

Yes; it was me who gave you that +1 !

Yes. After all this time, my world still revolves around you. Are you happy now? :wideeyed:

[Sasha Steelsong]

Yes. Agreed. The Theon chapters were the strongest, IMHO. When Jojen first told Bran about the man smiling as he sliced off Bran and Rickon's faces: now that literally kept me up one night. I was afraid to sleep.

But while Ramsey is a scary dude, I thought these chapters were more notable for the way Martin brOught Theon back to life. I liked the way his different selves (Reek, Theon of Winterfell, Theon of Pyke) were competing for real estate in his brain.

I thought he also came around in terms of his thinking about Winterfell and the Starks. At one point he rationalizes "This was never my home. I was a hostage here." But in a later PoV we see: "The nearest thing to a home that remained to him was here, amongst the bones of Winterfell."

I didn't read the castration. He does mention losing fingers, toes "and that other thing."

Maybe one of his nuts. I read the lines about him not being a man were more about being psychicly broken than physically castrated.

I never liked Theon and thought he was an arrogant little shit before his capture. Now I don't think I like him yet but I at least like his point of view. My problem with Theon is that he will not get redemption in my eyes until he faces one of the Starks. Regardless of his intent or the pressure on him or the torture that he has endured, that needs to happen before he is redeemed for his sins. That said he's paid for a multitude of other sins and nothing he ever did (save perhaps killing the two miller's boys - though since it stopped him from killing Bran and Rickon that one was sort of a wash for me even if it was horrible) really deserved Ramsey Snow as his punishment.

I also didn't read castration - not that I didn't question it from some phrases - but he doesn't have ghost groin pain the way he still feels his missing fingers so I never thought anything was lopped off. I think his "unmanhood" is more psychological than physical per se (i.e too much trauma to get it up but not anything physically wrong or missing standing in the way). That said he could have been circumcised which by all accounts when done as an adult is excruciating but would leave him theoretically functional. The wedding night scene seemed to imply that Ramsey at least thought it was possible for Theon to be aroused but who knows.

What I did love most however is how GRRM rebuilt him as a person throughout the book. The wedding chapter was particularly interesting. Though I loathed what was happening I found myself hurrying to the end to see if Theon or Reek won out, and was sad that it was Reek in the end (at least of that chapter). I loved how Martin literally showed how Humpty Dumpty put himself back together even if he was never going to be the arrogant prick he started out as again.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I don't...Lisa Kudrow...what? Nevermind. I was kidding, too. My original reply got the heave-ho. I was kidding then, as well. I'm not an angry person. Just an excitable one !

It was because you called me a douche. Then I told you to get a life. Lisa Kudrow has a new show on HBO called Web Therapist where she... yeah, forget it.

Did anyone else notice that Theon mentions that a girl's hair could use a wash in CoK & in DwD?

Yes, because he's still Theon, and deep down, still the same womanizing jerk we knew and some of us loved... good to know that can't be tortured out of him.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Just had to add that I think a flayed anus is a bridge too far even for Martin, though Flayed Anus is a pretty cool band name.

[Panjer]

I don't think Theon's lost all of his wits, he seemed to act relatively normal when negotiating with the Ironmen in Moat Cailin.

[Knight of Ashes]

I don't think Theon's lost all of his wits, he seemed to act relatively normal when negotiating with the Ironmen in Moat Cailin.

I don't think his wits are the loss everyone's so concerned about.:uhoh:

[rue721]

Did anyone else notice that Theon mentions that a girl's hair could use a wash in CoK & in DwD?

He's been tortured almost to insanity & he stinks like the pits of hell, but that's among the first things he noticed about a girl who made his nerves jangle & him drop his spoon.

This is why I could never in a million years hate Theon.

How can you not have a soft spot for someone that relentlessly bitchy? :P

If only he and Tyrion could get into some kind of rap battle...

[Panjer]

I don't think his wits are the loss everyone's so concerned about.:uhoh:

Ha, I know! I just think he's not 'broken' just yet.

Hmmm. We see many noble hostages being treated horribly: Tyrion in the sky cells at the Vale. Jaime getting his hand cut off. Sansa's mistreatment by Joffrey. Anyone captured by Roose or Ramsay. I could go on. In comparison, life with the Starks was a frolic in a field of daisies. So I don't buy this "noble hostages are treated well." You're diminishing the Starks' good treatment of Theon to make a rhetorical point but I don't think it's accurate.

Tyrion was a hostage to Lysa Arryn, she was a little bit touched in the head.

Jaime got his hand cut off by sellswords known for their lack of chivalry.

Joffrey was a dick and a moron.

The Boltons are the exception that proves the rule, they have a reputation for cruelty. Theon was treated better than if he were a hostage at Casterly Rock or King's Landing but he was hardly considered family. The only one who genuinely cared for him was Robb due to them being relatively close in age.

Theon's own viewpoint can't be trusted, he WANTS to be recognized as a brother to the Stark children, that's the reason why his fondness for them isn't shared by them save Robb.

[iamthedave]

This is why I could never in a million years hate Theon.

How can you not have a soft spot for someone that relentlessly bitchy? :P

If only he and Tyrion could get into some kind of rap battle...

I'm so tempted to write a Theon-themed rap now. Maybe we could do it like a 'write a sentence' post?

Someone starts off with a line, then someone writes the next one. Or maybe two lines, since raps tend to be written in rhyming lines.

[Relic]

See, I think you could say the GRRM did the opposite. He created a situation where you've got this character who does something irredeemable. He sacks Winterfell, the seat of all the readers' sympathies in the book.

Then, when we pick back up Theon's tale, he takes that character and shows us how truly un-evil and sad he really is. Any desire to see Theon suffer for his actions goes away pretty quickly as the reader is, as you said, kind of assaulted by these vivid descriptions of Ramsay's torturing. If I were the type to suspect GRRM's motives in writing in that way, I would think he was making a point about the reality of torture vs. the desire for revenge. Not to satisfy fanboy applause, but to subvert any desire for such a thing with the reality and brutality of violence, which is a theme throughout ASOIAF

Agree fully.

[Cthulette]

Those chapters...ugh. They were already painful to read but then when he threw poor Jeynne Poole into the mix...I almost quit reading the entire book. I actually did stop for about a week after getting to the part where they go to rescue her and she's been so sexually abused its stomach-churning.

Yes, there's been quite a bit of rape in the series, but nothing like this.

The fact that Ramsay still lives makes me dread the next book. I'm not sure how much more imagery I can handle.

[Altherion]

That said he's paid for a multitude of other sins and nothing he ever did (save perhaps killing the two miller's boys - though since it stopped him from killing Bran and Rickon that one was sort of a wash for me even if it was horrible) really deserved Ramsey Snow as his punishment.

It's not a matter of "deserve", it's just that actions have consequences. Remember, he willingly allied himself with Ramsay Snow. People who ally themselves with monsters without having adequate power to keep the monsters in line typically do not fare well -- and Theon had to have known what Ramsey was just based on what he did in ACOK.

That said, I'm fairly confident that things will get better for Theon. At the very least Asha will try to use him to drive Euron out of the Seastone Chair (recall the story about the guy who missed the kingsmoot and came back to claim the throne). It is possible that she will succeed.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Theon's own viewpoint can't be trusted, he WANTS to be recognized as a brother to the Stark children, that's the reason why his fondness for them isn't shared by them save Robb.

No offense, but this is what drives me crazy about these boards. If you can't trust Theon's own descriptions of his experience, and dismiss them out of hand, I don't know what to tell you. He felt like he was their friend and brother, Ned's ward, not his hostage. That's good enough for me. Where else in Westeros would a hostage ever feel that way? I can't imagine.

[rue721]

If you can't trust Theon's own descriptions of his experience, and dismiss them out of hand, I don't know what to tell you.

I think the point of how the books are constructed, though, is that there *isn't* a definitive viewpoint. We can trust Theon when he talks about how he feels in a certain moment, sure. I don't think we're meant to think Theon's *lying* in his narrative. But everything he says and describes, we only glimpse through the prism of Theon's POV -- not through some omniscient and unbiased camera lens. How Theon feels and what he needs to believe are also going to play into how he reads a situation, and that's going to affect how his narrative frames it (including what his narrative leaves out).

Over the course of his story, Theon becomes more and more insistent that the Starks treated him well and that he feels that Winterfell is his home. I think we're meant to trust that he's really feeling that. But why is he becoming preoccupied with that now? I think it's part of his process of breaking free from Ramsey...but I do think it's important that at the beginning of his story, Theon won't even allow himself to think ill thoughts of Ramsey, and by the end he is able to acknowledge his consuming hatred for him -- and his feelings toward the Starks go along exactly the opposite lines. It's sort of like Theon's brain is at the fulcrum of a teeter-totter, and on one side is loyalty to Ramsey and a sense of identity as Reek, and on the other side is loyalty to the Starks and a sense of identity as Theon. Just because he's succeeded (for now) in shifting the weight from one end to the other, it doesn't mean the balance is still delicate.

I think when we're inside Theon's POV chapter, we really are inside Theon's mind and seeing through Theon's eyes, and it's important to take into account exactly how much of what kind of thought is swirling around in there. The narrative isn't objective, it's subjective -- it's entirely Theon's, which tells us more about some things (like Theon's state of mind) and less about others (like what the same events would look like through a different set of eyes -- and in this case, through a more mentally stable set of eyes). One of the other interesting things about the way these books are constructed is that sometimes the POV narratives overlap a little in terms of the timeline -- and I tell you, I'm really interested to read the Theon and Asha POVs of the same events, while they're working together, because I think we're going to find that Theon's POV is a little more skewed than some of the other characters'.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Yeah the Reek chapters were pretty horrifying. Id go so far as to say they are just too much - like horror porn. Especially the scene with Jeyne Pool. And the flaying descriptions. Yeah I don:t think we need to hear about that... its like GRRM was just trying to titallate us, pushing the boundaries a bit much for my taste. :P

And other than the violence-porn, I found the chapters unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Theons fine, i don:t hate him, and im glad hell have a chance to make up for some of what he did. I hate Roose and Ramsey, sure, so it was frustrating to see them on top but honestly in the big picture i find them fairly irrelevant. Their downfall is too inevitable, and I dont care to read about it - would rather it happen offscreen. Plus, of course, we never actually get to see that conclusion happen - all we see is Theon escaping (but thats a problem with aDwD in general not with Reek/Theon chapters in particular).

[lady crackhead]

Yes. After all this time, my world still revolves around you. Are you happy now?

You ought to ask my husband, jabberwalken. He was right, his come really does taste like ice cream, so I accepted his ring. I'd've let you know on PM, but it looks like they barred me from it.

I think that Theon thinks of his time at Winterfell as the closest thing to a home, and admits to himself he liked all the kids, but they didnt like him, only Robb did. Jon calls him an ass & Bran says outright in his POV that he desnt like him...before he saves him, & afterwards he doesnt go back on that.

I also dont think he thinks of himself as a Stark now, as some ppl have taken that Youvegottoknowyourname line.

I think we're going to find that Theon's POV is a little more skewed than some of the other characters'.

How so?

[rue721]

How so?

In these past chapters, Theon was constantly preoccupied with:

1. Staying safe from Ramsey

2. Finding the strength to keep going, both physically and mentally.

I think maybe his POV will open up a little more, and won't be *as* laser-focused on his torturer and the results/reasons for his torture in the coming book...but I think he's probably going to stay pretty thoroughly preoccupied. Those preoccupations, I would guess, would mean that certain things in situations are going to seem more important to him, or he's going to read situations differently, than someone who isn't preoccupied by those things. It's going to be interesting to read about something like Theon spotting Ramsey again, from Theon's POV and then another person's (Asha's, I hope) POV, and seeing how those accounts match up. I would think that since Asha, like the reader, isn't preoccupied with constant overwhelming fear of Ramsey, her POV is going to read as more "objective" and Theon's is going to read as more "skewed." I think it'll be interesting to see how he sees his behavior and how others see that same behavior, imo.

One thing that I wonder about, in terms of that, is when he gets all those men to come back to Ramsey's with him (to be killed). Didn't he look like some horrifically beaten-up old man at that point, too, just like he did when Asha saw him? If he did look so unhealthy and unlike himself, how did he convince those men to follow him and that everything was OK? I mean, are we going to find out that on the outside, Theon somehow seems very normal, and then read his POV and find that it's some hyper-focused mess of fear, or is it going to be the opposite (or something else entirely)?

[Panjer]

I don't know what to tell you. He felt like he was their friend and brother, Ned's ward, not his hostage. That's good enough for me. Where else in Westeros would a hostage ever feel that way? I can't imagine.

I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that the feeling wasn't mutual except maybe in Robb's case.

[HashRouge]

I dislike Theon intensely, yet really pity him as well. Tbh I was actually disappointed with the direction of his storyline as soon as he betrayed Robb. I really hoped that he would stay loyal, but there you go. He isn't "getting what he deserves" though - I'm not sure anyone deserves to be the victim of a sadistic psychopath like Ramsey Bolton. I don't think even Robb, who Theon betrayed, thought he deserved such a punishment. In fact, doesn't Robb making some sort of comment about how it's Theon's head that he wants, not his skin. Theon betrayed Robb, yet Robb would have given him a quick, clean end. I was actually really hoping that there would be a Robb/ Theon showdown.

Of the Reek chapters, I think I actually found the saddest moment to be that bit where Theon is thinking about Robb and how he was like a brother to him :frown5:

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I think the point of how the books are constructed, though, is that there *isn't* a definitive viewpoint. We can trust Theon when he talks about how he feels in a certain moment, sure. I don't think we're meant to think Theon's *lying* in his narrative. But everything he says and describes, we only glimpse through the prism of Theon's POV -- not through some omniscient and unbiased camera lens. How Theon feels and what he needs to believe are also going to play into how he reads a situation, and that's going to affect how his narrative frames it (including what his narrative leaves out).

Of course, but he's the one who lived it, so if he says he felt that way, it doesn't matter if the Starks reciprocated, does it? Feeling like part of a family is a subjective feeling, not something that can be proved or disproved. You kind of have to take people's feelings at face value. I'm sure his captivity in Dreadfort made Winterfell look like nirvana to him, which may have colored his perceptions, as well as his regret, but at the core is his truth.

It's sort of like Theon's brain is at the fulcrum of a teeter-totter, and on one side is loyalty to Ramsey and a sense of identity as Reek, and on the other side is loyalty to the Starks and a sense of identity as Theon. Just because he's succeeded (for now) in shifting the weight from one end to the other, it doesn't mean the balance is still delicate.

Does Theon every think, "Fuck the Starks, they were nothing to me?" One always gets the sense that he was rationalizing his behavior by saying, I wasn't a Stark, and only when he is so broken down that he's incapable of rationalizing does he admit how horrible his actions were. I think he has finally accepted that no, he wasn't a Stark, but they were still the only family he ever had. That's painful indeed.

I think when we're inside Theon's POV chapter, we really are inside Theon's mind and seeing through Theon's eyes, and it's important to take into account exactly how much of what kind of thought is swirling around in there. The narrative isn't objective, it's subjective -- it's entirely Theon's, which tells us more about some things (like Theon's state of mind) and less about others (like what the same events would look like through a different set of eyes -- and in this case, through a more mentally stable set of eyes).

I see what you're saying, but I don't think such feelings can be viewed through someone else's eyes. They're his feelings, and the Starks had their feelings. Are you saying he may go back to feeling like he wasn't the Starks' brother or friend when he's more mentally stable? Honestly, I doubt it. I don't think it matters how the Starks saw him, only how he saw them and felt about them. I think he knows he was never a Stark, not b/c the Starks were not good to him, but due to facts of birth and political circumstance of his presence. His feelings are what they are. It's even sadder that his feelings for them after all that has happened are love and regret, while all of them probably still want to kill his ass.