(ADWD SPOILERS) Reek Chapters

[rue721]

I reject the idea that he was punished for his sins by Ramsay and taught a needed lesson from it, & I dont see that Theon, as he is Theon by the end, does either.

I didn't get this idea from Tyroshi's post *at all.* In fact, the complete opposite.

It didn't *matter* that Theon didn't deserve what happened -- Ramsey did it to him anyway. That is what victimization *is.* Now Theon is stuck with dealing with what Ramsey did to him, because he was Ramsey's *victim.* Just because Theon didn't have control over it happening doesn't mean it didn't happen or that there aren't mental and physical consequences from it.

I get that you think he should just put all thoughts/feelings/memories/etc of his time with Ramsey into a little mental box and lock that box and throw it into the metaphorical ocean, or whatever. I disagree that that's tenable in the long-term or ultimately the best decision. Why is that connecting in your mind with victim-blaming or saying that Theon deserves what happened or being patronizing?

ETA:

If he stays bad & unrepentant in the eyes of people who are asking too much like you, then that would be great in my eyes. Being good & staying alive are not necessarily compatible

Who said he was "bad"?

[lady crackhead]

Lastly I will comment on Krakenhead's feeling that Martin catered to "fanboys" in punishing Theon. I just don't see that. I mean, how many people wanted Jaime killed and tortured for throwing Bran out and then suddenly he loses his sword hand two novels later. I don't think he wanted to appease anyone for it, but rather show the character development through exceedingly horrific trials.

You rang?

How many fanboys wanted jaime tortured and killed? Not as many, but a long shot. Jaime was set up to be a badass, and people respond to people who are painted strong, be they badass or not, but most especially be they bassass! Theon is weak, with human failings & bad luck ...I guess they dont like to be reminded of how human they themselves are but would rather warg into the badass characters to live out their fantasies of being strong & a badass :D

I backed up why I thought Martin was appeasing his yesmen. And it;s notable that Jaime was redeemed , without him actually asking for or accepting it, in SoS. AFTER which came AFFC, which was a long slide down, professionally for him... it makes sense that he wanted to appease before this one, also a critical failure on a plate, came out.

But think what you will. Im not looking for converts. And especially not on this board.

[lady crackhead]

I get that you think he should just put all thoughts/feelings/memories/etc of his time with Ramsey into a little mental box and lock that box and throw it into the metaphorical ocean, or whatever. I disagree that that's tenable in the long-term or ultimately the best decision. Why is that connecting in your mind with victim-blaming or saying that Theon deserves what happened or being patronizing?

If that's what you get then you didnt really get what I wrote at all. I dont "think" he should do anything. Theon himself isnt showing such greatly detailed introspection or guilt as both of you hope he would by the end of the story. Who knows whats to come, but its worth taking note of what is right there in the book itself.

Its obvious that he will deal, have sideeffects, from what has happened. You are stating the obvious. But i sincerely doubt that it will play into much or that he will be as changed or introspective as you seemingly hope for.

And TySell is totally expecting bad Theon to repent. Totally.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

It goes without saying that he realizes what he had to do to keep alive. Youre pointing out the obvious. And youre phrasing it so it sounds patronizing, as in, 'Does little Theon know why he was punished?'

That is not even close to what I was saying, not at all. I'm saying, he has more information about himself than most people do. He knows how he reacts to a forceable loss of selfhood. He knows how far he would go to survive. That is some pretty significant knowledge. I think it can also be pretty scary, to know how far you are willing to go.

He IS like a rape victim in the way that he did NOT incur the victimization. Again, he trusted the wrong person for the wrong reason, that in no way makes what Ramsay did to him his fault. Period.

There is a vast difference between being complicit in your own victimization and it being your fault. Stockholm Syndrome is a classic example of a victim becoming complicit in his own victimization. It's not a matter of it being your fault, but it is often something people feel guilty about later.

Your reasoning is of the kind of person who would blame a prostitute for being raped.

No, and faulty and unpleasant analogies are not conducive to rational debate. Let's remind ourselves that Theon is a fictional character and not a member of your family. But it can be said that prostitutes have free will and put themselves in situations where bad shit can happen to them. When it does, I bet a lot of them blame themselves whether they deserve blame or not. This conversation is not about assigning blame, it's about how Theon might cope with his experience.

Furthermore, the culture that we and any paternalistic society lives in makes rape victims self-blame. This doesnt apply to Theon, and not even if he was raped under this scenario because his torture was so extreme and constant. When he had to scramble for his life before Ramsay, he told himself he just had to be good to not get hurt anymore. Theon at the end doesnt think this way at all, unless Im mistaken.

How would you know that? We saw very little of Theon after he went back to being Theon. There is no way to know what he feels and what he will feel long-term, as often these negative reactions, like PTSD, don't surface until later. In fact, one of the diagnostic criteria for PTSD is that it has to endure for at least a month, and can in some people not even surface for 6 months.

He shows no signs of internalizing guilt from what he's been put through or made to do by Ramsay, as far as I remember.

He would be a vanishingly small minority of victims of torture and physical and sexual abuse if he felt no guilt.

Does he feel any guilt about Moat Cailin? No, not even as he hears the screaming of the dying ironmen. You do what you do to live.

He's still Reek then. I imagine Theon will have a different reaction to it once he has the luxury of thinking back on it. But I think he does feel guilt. He is proud of his men, of whom Ryswell says, "I thought there would be more. Three times we came at them, and three times they threw us back." Those were some tough men. In fact, Reek says to Ramsay, "All they want is to go home, my lord." And then he gets good and drunk so he can sleep through the screaming. Later, on seeing their flayed bodies, he thinks, "Sixty three. There were sixty three of them." Sixty three men he betrayed. That sounds like someone trying to cope with guilt to me.

It's bullshit to invoke the idea of dying with honor & having principles about someone who is in a situation so extreme. This is a bankrupt & childish argument, one that is routinely put upon victimized people. 'I would kill myself rather than be raped', 'Why didnt all those Jews just rise up & turn on their concentration camp guards?', etc...ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

You are confusing my statements about how Theon MIGHT feel and how Theon SHOULD feel. I am not being prescriptive. I am giving my POV on how the effects of this WILL FEEL TO HIM, not saying, "I think Theon deserves X, or should feel Y." I could imagine him thinkng, "Ned Stark would have died before he did what I did at Moat Cailin." Whether that is true or not would not stop him from torturing himself with it later. If you think he wouldn't have any feelings of that nature, you are imagining him to be a much healthier psyche than he can possibly be after he went through, and denying the truth of how damaged psyches react to stress.

All healthy people are born with the will to live & will fight ceaselessly to do so. Period. He was stronger than those that have a weaker will to live, that's his luck. Good & bad.

I strongly disagree that all people will fight ceaselessly to live in the face of all things. Many people choose to die rather than do certain things or face things. Otherwise, suicide would not exist.

Will he be messed up emotionally over his missing wiener -if it is missing? How could he not be. Will it effect how how deals with people? Other than Asha, I dont see it.

Are you seriously contending that being gelded will not affect how he deals with other people? How is that POSSIBLE?

I think it was sufficently painted that there was no other way out of moat calin.

Reek himself thinks, "Weak as they were, they would have taken three times their own number with them if Lord Ramsay had stormed the ruins." They were not given the choice, surrender and be FLAYED to death, or die like men. They were lied to. So "no way out of Moat Cailin" is NOT an excuse for betraying men into very much undeserved horrible deaths. He could have chosen to fight and die with them, allowing them to die with dignity. You are rationalizing this and forgetting that those 63 men died because Theon was so subverted by Ramsay that he acted as his catspaw against his own men. And he knew it was wrong when he was doing it. Tell me he won't feel any regret later.

And even if there were, he is thoroughly under Ramsay at this point. Why didnt Kacey Duggard run away from her captors, too?

Do you want me to do a compare and contrast essay of Kasey Duggard and Theon Greyjoy? Kasey Duggard didn't betray anyone to their deaths. You could start there.

As i said, he may have had an inkling that Ramsay would kill them but he didnt "absolutely" know, & he doesnt deserve the blame. The blame lays sollely with Ramsay.

He absolutely knew. Sorry, it's strictly BS to deny this. And let me say this one more time for the folks in the cheap seats: I AM NOT ASSIGNING BLAME. I am saying, there is a lot of room for Theon to blame himself, and not without some basis in fact. This is something that will likely haunt him. He wouldn't be a normal person if it didn't. My evidence is how many rape victims do blame themselves even when they shouldn't.

You say he had no free will. He HAD to do what Ramsay said. Yet he DOES have free will AND asserts it to save Jeyne. So which is it? Did he have no choice, was he completely Ramsay's creature, or wasn't he?

A person with a stronger identity would have honor & choose death? Is that how youre spinning it? Like our dear departed Nedly? He was a certified saint. Theon is human. And therefore better.

Maybe. Unknowable. But Theon might THINK that.

Bullshit. Bad things happen to good people all the time & good people resort to all kinds of bad things to survive, all the time. Theon wasnt good, but he is (was , if hes going to be turned into gollum) painted human. If he stays bad & unrepentant in the eyes of people who are asking too much like you, then that would be great in my eyes. Being good & staying alive are not necessarily compatible

You are reading what you want to read in my words and not what I am actually saying: a classic straw man. YOU are the one saying he will be unrepentant for Moat Cailin. I am saying he will likely feel guilt over it, whether he deserves to or not. As Bill Munny said, deserve's got nothing to do with it. Feelings after extreme trauma are not rational.

Youre getting me confused with someone else.

No, you're confusing you with someone else. I was talking about the Greyjoys. You are not a Greyjoy, your over-identification with Theon notwithstanding.

[The Marquis de Leech]

As another long-serving member of that exotic species known as the Theon Defender, I wouldn't go so far as to say that in ADWD Martin was trying to appease the Stark supporters. I do think though that in this book there was a tendency for Martin to become a self-parody. This was most notable with his cliffhangers, and fake deaths, but in the case of the Reek chapters, it felt like Martin was consciously saying to the readership "see, you hated Theon, now I'm going to do a trademark switcheroo to make you feel sorry for the guy." It might be because I never hated Theon to start with, but in my case it didn't work as intended, and did come across as a bit of self-parody.

[RootinforJorah]

I found it difficult in the sense that I was disgusted when I realized what had happened to him.

I'm not sure I'm right but I read the castration as a choice Theon made rather than go through another skinning.

It took me about twenty minutes to get through the paragraph. I never hated Theon when he abandond Robb or sacked Winterfell, but when Ramsey had broken him to the point of making that choice....yuck

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

If that's what you get then you didnt really get what I wrote at all. I dont "think" he should do anything. Theon himself isnt showing such greatly detailed introspection or guilt as both of you hope he would by the end of the story. Who knows whats to come, but its worth taking note of what is right there in the book itself.

When does he have time to do this? It takes months, years, a lifetime to process abuse this extensive, yet you are expecting us to take two chapters, one with a two sentence mention of him, and extrapolate that to mean that Theon will not have any of the typical reactions that victims of horrendous abuse have. Really.

And TySell is totally expecting bad Theon to repent. Totally.

You clearly have no idea what I think or expect. You have not come close to accurately representing any of my points or beliefs in this thread.

[rue721]

If that's what you get then you didnt really get what I wrote at all. I dont "think" he should do anything.

Is your point that you have no opinion on him and/or his situation? Because you think it's impudent to have an opinion about it?

Theon himself isnt showing such greatly detailed introspection or guilt as both of you hope he would by the end of the story.

I agree that Theon isn't all that analytical or introspective. I don't think Theon's chapters in any book will be him sitting around reflecting, because he's fundamentally a man of action. That's always been what I most enjoyed about the character -- he's pragmatic, he's bold, and he takes action. He was even like that, to the extent possible, in DwD.

But regardless of whether Theon the character is analytical or introspective, *I* am, so my way of understanding what's going on in the story is to pick it apart. That's not me making a value judgment, that's me genuinely trying to understand the text.

Its obvious that he will deal, have sideeffects, from what has happened. You are stating the obvious. But i sincerely doubt that it will play into much or that he will be as changed or introspective as you seemingly hope for.

It's not so much that I *hope* that he's changed, it's that it feels to me that in DwD we've seen only one half of the story (Theon with Ramsey), and I'm curious how it fits together with the other half (Theon post-Ramsey). The causes are only interesting, to me, when you're sorting out how they connect to the effects, and vice versa. So I'm trying to imagine the different ways the next part of his story could go, and trying to figure out best/worst case scenarios. Best case, I would say, is for him to incorporate "Reek" into his identity to the point that shame or fear over what happened with Ramsey becomes a source of as little pain as possible for him, maybe even a source of some strength. I'll go out on a limb and say that after what happened, he's probably feeling shame and fear (to me, things like not wanting to be touched, telling Jeyne to be good so Ramsey won't hurt her, making the washerwomen repeat promises that they'll never let him back in Ramsey's clutches again, the melancholy of his walks at Winterfell -- all that points to him feeling shame and fear, which I can't imagine vanishing when Ramsey does because that's not how those feelings work). Worst case...I don't know. He way overcompensates, risks too much, and gets captured again?! Thinking about that scenario literally make me feel sick, which I guess is why I hope he goes best case (and concentrate on that one) instead of worst. Of course there's infinite room in between, too. And there's always the possibility of him dying.

Another way to figure out the cause/effect thing would be to try and fit together "pre-Ramsey" Theon with "with Ramsey" Theon, I guess, but I'm still in the middle of re-reading the previous books because I've apparently forgotten more than I thought I did, so I don't have much to say about that yet. I do think, though, that Theon's story in DwD will have a fair amount of resonance in WoW -- causes and effects are supposed to always be equal, right? I don't imagine that it's going to be some explicit thing: X is an effect of being tortured at Ramsey's. But I think the effects will definitely be there, because the causes were.

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious or retreading ground over and over. My mind : idea :: Pit bull : bone.

[patchesthedrow]

He'd need it to screw the bitches, referring of course actually do Ramsay's girls. At one point was Theon was whining he did seem to say something about being with one of his girls. 0_o Perhaps I misread. And for some reason reading the torture scene in Wizard's First rule struck me a little more. Most likely because Theon becomes Reek rather quickly to our eyes.

[Free Northman]

Oh the bleeding hearts.

Whatever Theon got, and to whatever degree he did or did not deserve it, I can tell you this much.

He deserved it more than those innocent miller's boys deserved to be murdered. He deserved it more than old Nan deserved to be dragged off into captivity at the Dreadfort.

And he DEFINITELY deserved it more than ser Rodrick Cassel deserved what happend to him and his daugther Beth.

If those millers kids were my sons, I would want Theon's suffering to go on for a LOT longer than it has been thus far. In fact, I would want him to burn in hell for all eternity - if hell forms part of your belief system.

As for those wondering whether poor Theon got his dick chopped off: I think that is the very least that was done to him "down there". Why do you think he develops an unbearable stink on a daily basis? It is commented on so often that it is clearly something of major significance.

At one point some Bolton guard says he stinks of horse piss.

Not only was Theon's dick cut off, it was cut off in such a way that his urine cannot be contained. He is leaking piss and maybe faeces as well - depending on whether more "surgery" was performed in his nether regions - on a constant basis.

Hence his constant stink. If it was just a normal gelding, he would be no worse off than any of the other eunuchs in the series. But the other eunuchs don't reek like he does. He's got some major, irreversible plumbing issues down there, that's without a doubt.

[lady crackhead]

Not even close to what youre saying? Take a look back at what youve written in this entire thread. You keep banging on the point that Theon is complicit in his victimization & that he should feel guilt & he should feel badly, or he hasnt learned anything from his torture. THAT is what you have been saying.

Theon didnt have Stockholm Syndrome. Theon didnt sympathize or empathize with Ramsay. Theon's relationship to Ramsay was of a dog to his master, not of as a child to his father.

Theon had to maintain himself constantly that he was Reek, & he was actively playing Reek for Ramsay, so he could stay alive. The things he says as Reek are not self-delusion but the things he has to consciously & continuously say to himself to watch his step. If he had SS, he wouldnt have had to remind himself, & he would have believed what he said was true. He could say all he liked to himself that Ramsay would not cut him 'if he was good,' but he never believed that.

And SS develops under circumstances where there is not great physical pain to the victim. The higher the degree of hurt to a victim, the less likely they are to 1) develop SS, & 2) feel guilty for having incurred the abuse.

You and rue have spent hundreds of words now saying three things: Theon went through torture; Theon will have side-effects from it, & (TSell) he should feel guilty for it.

The first two points are so patently obvious that they never had to be acknowledged & the last is more wishful thinking than probable to the extent that you seem to want that guilt to be. Based on what is there in the book.

Speculate on the next book all you want, but youre building cathedrals out of air.

One more thing. Some people use the point-by-point break down response to reply to questions that were posed. Youre using it pretty disingenuously to misrepresent what people have said.

I think someone hasnt gotten over being laughed at a few pages back & has a boulder on his shoulder ;)

I never said that all people fight ceaselessly to live, I said that was the healthy response, & I never said that there werent gradations of the will to live in people. I am aware of what suicide is. Shit, youre not even good at it. Anyone can just look at the quote you pulled from me & see that youre spinning my words to make yourself sound superior. It's more pathetic than being patronizing.

Same thing with the following quote. And on & on & on....Yawn. You have a burning desire to be the one who's 'winning' the argument & you do it by talking down to people & misrepresenting them. I bet my pointing this out will not go unpunished. Although that would be a more novel approach than this young-man-bested-saving-face thing youre doing.

I never said Theon wouldnt feel guilt over this or that, I said it probably wont be to the degree that you seem to want or imagine, based on how Theon actually is portrayed in the book. The blame for Moat Cailin lies with Ramsay. The fact that Theon was proud of the Ironmen & did say to Ramsay that they just want to be sent home also points to the fact that Theon didnt “absolutely” know that they would all be killed. He wouldnt have mentioned it at all to Ramsay if he thought that; he wouldnt have taken the risk that Ramsay would think he was challenging him by saying that. See my first sentence again to know what I think about his feelings of guilt on the matter. As for you, from all youve said in this thread, it looks like youre angling hard for him to be consumed by guilt over it, or why not just let it lay?

Theon's wounds or lack of penis are obviously not going to be revealed to anyone that is not close to him or to whom he doesnt trust. I doubt his lack of a penis or wounds will change his personality to one that is more saintly, it hasnt so far in the book. And yes, we have plenty of time to see him when he's back to his old self again to make that judgement. A full chapter, & before that, we see as he gradually settles back into his old self. The last scene in Asha's POV, also. That is enough information to go on. How Martin spins the story & character, who the fuck knows. Look to Dany's POVs & how people cant believe how different she is & why they think it's author's failure as the cause.

No, you're confusing you with someone else. I was talking about the Greyjoys. You are not a Greyjoy, your over-identification with Theon notwithstanding.

Reread what you actually wrote:

You think sense of humor is a Greyjoy family trait?!? They seem like a rather dour lot. That Damphair is a real knee slapper, and Victarion? Barrel of laughs. Euron, so light hearted! I'm teasing. I like to tease people who drown people for fun and profit.

That's me youre addressing, so it sounds like you are the one who's over-identifying me with a Greyjoy.

Roose Bolton's Pet Leech, I felt that way , too. He took a person & made him into a thing. I still stand by his motives for it. I called it hitting two birds with one stone: making the fangirls like the two posters I mentioned above cry for him, while pandering to what the people wanted. And as you can see, its not good enough for a lot of them, still. They want him to die to satisfy their infantile & ridiculously vengeful beliefs.

And beyond that, the whole, “Reek, Reek, it rhymes with..” was overused & corny. What was that? An homage to Stephen King at his very worst?

[Guest]

I did mean the way he was acting more than the deformities. I was reading and, well, it just wasn't 'Theon' anymore. It was Reek. Theon's my favourite, not Reek. But then he became Theon again in a badass way, and his chapters were the most interesting...

Sorry I was confusing. I should have clarified: Theon is my favourite character again/still. I was sad to see the character ruined, but that was before I realised he was getting better. As soon as I saw Jeyne was there I had hope he'd man up and save her, so I was very pleased with the ending.

The ugliness part bothers me separately, because no matter how he heals mentally he'll always have those scars. He can't kick ass with a bow, or be any sort of warrior. The Greyjoys value physical ability over mental (which is why Asha can never get the respect she deserves- weak wimminz aren't worthy) so as long as Theon is a maimed toothless old man who can't father sons, he'll have a difficult time getting respect. And that's what he's been trying to get the whole series..

Ahhhh, this is much more clear now. I see what you mean completely. :thumbsup:

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Not even close to what youre saying? Take a look back at what youve written in this entire thread. You keep banging on the point that Theon is complicit in his victimization & that he should feel guilt & he should feel badly, or he hasnt learned anything from his torture. THAT is what you have been saying.

He is complicit. That's the horror of the whole thing. If it's totally externally imposed and he had zero agency in anything, and he doesn't have to look at his own participation, however forced, it's not the same trauma. The titanic evil of Ramsay is how he made Theon hurt himself and others. I NEVER SAID HE SHOULD FEEL ANYTHING. I'm saying, this is what happens when people go through these things. It would be nice if you read what I wrote instead of arguing against what you think I wrote.

Theon didnt have Stockholm Syndrome.

I never said he did. I gave it as an example of a victim becoming complicit in his own vicimization who might feel guilty even though it's not his fault.

You and rue have spent hundreds of words now saying three things: Theon went through torture; Theon will have side-effects from it, & (TSell) he should feel guilty for it.

I NEVER SAID THAT and I will point out this incorrect straw man every time you say it.

I think someone hasnt gotten over being laughed at a few pages back & has a boulder on his shoulder ;)

I'm sorry you're not over being laughed at, but the boulder is crushing your logic.

Anyone can just look at the quote you pulled from me & see that youre spinning my words to make yourself sound superior. It's more pathetic than being patronizing.

Can you stop personally attacking me and making huge, unjustified assumptions about me and my intentions? WE ARE ARGUING ABOUT A FICTIONAL CHARACTER. There is no need for this level of personal nastiness.

this young-man-bested-saving-face thing youre doing.

I find it hilarious that you've assumed that 1. I am young, and 2. I am a man. I have no face to save. I have done nothing to feel bad about. I am debating about a fictional character. I have no personal stake in this debate; it is merely an intellectual exercise. There is no winning or losing. I really wish you'd jump back off me as a human being and focus on my arguments, which are firmly rooted in the text and my understanding of human psychology.

I never said Theon wouldnt feel guilt over this or that, I said it probably wont be to the degree that you seem to want or imagine, based on how Theon actually is portrayed in the book.

I DO NOT WANT HIM TO FEEL ANY PARTICULAR THING. I think the text strongly supports a reading wherein he is suppressing the very real feelings of guilt that result from his actions. Why else ask for wine to get drunk? Why else the repeated thoughts about how brave and tough the men were who he betrayed? OF COURSE he feels guilty for what he did. And yes, he is complicit, regardless of with whom the blame ultimately lies. He participated in it. He has to live with that.

The blame for Moat Cailin lies with Ramsay. The fact that Theon was proud of the Ironmen & did say to Ramsay that they just want to be sent home also points to the fact that Theon didnt “absolutely” know that they would all be killed.

Yes he did. It was his way of trying to plead for them. It didn't work, and he knew it wouldn't. What is on the Bolton banner? How could anyone, much less Theon, claim surprise at what happened to the men at Moat Cailin? There is massive precedent for it, of which he was all too aware. Why would you try to deny this? Theon might try to rationalize it, but can we at least be honest about it? You're not his attorney. He's not on trial. We are discussing the reality of it for him, and the reality is, he knew they would be killed at the very least, and most likely flayed.

He wouldnt have mentioned it at all to Ramsay if he thought that; he wouldnt have taken the risk that Ramsay would think he was challenging him by saying that.

Yet he did JUST THAT, as his sense of self was not as squashed as you are depicting. It was a very indirect question, but that he tried at all shows that somewhere inside him was Theon, and Theon was ironborn. Why would you take that away from him in your zeal to absolve him of an involvement that is undeniable?

Theon's wounds or lack of penis are obviously not going to be revealed to anyone that is not close to him or to whom he doesnt trust. I doubt his lack of a penis or wounds will change his personality to one that is more saintly, it hasnt so far in the book.

No one said it would make him saintly. However, he will be aware of it every minute of his life, probably, so it will inform everything he does. There is no way he will not be transformed by this experience, and perpetual conscious of it. Is all I'm saying.

And yes, we have plenty of time to see him when he's back to his old self again to make that judgement. A full chapter, & before that, we see as he gradually settles back into his old self. The last scene in Asha's POV, also. That is enough information to go on. How Martin spins the story & character, who the fuck knows. Look to Dany's POVs & how people cant believe how different she is & why they think it's author's failure as the cause.

PTSD takes months to develop. Two chapters is not a good indication of how Theon will deal with his abuse longterm. Two chapters in a 5 volume epic is a flyspeck in terms of character development.

That's me youre addressing, so it sounds like you are the one who's over-identifying me with a Greyjoy.

No, it isn't. I was not talking about you. Did you really think that I was accusing you of drowning people? But it's not worth arguing about.

[lady crackhead]

He is complicit. That's the horror of the whole thing. If it's totally externally imposed and he had zero agency in anything, and he doesn't have to look at his own participation, however forced, it's not the same trauma. The titanic evil of Ramsay is how he made Theon hurt himself and others. I NEVER SAID HE SHOULD FEEL ANYTHING. I'm saying, this is what happens when people go through these things. It would be nice if you read what I wrote instead of arguing against what you think I wrote.

Stop shouting like a manic. The fact that you cant even hold it together in a post undermines the fact that youre not a stable authority on what "people go through" with torture or anything else.

I have read what you wrote all through the thread. You do believe he should feel guilty for bad things he's done & you do link him through complicity. Switching it now to describe just the torture itself is crafty but misdirection on your part. I was right; you seem to need to be 'winning' in this discussion, no matter what.

I never said he did [have Stockholm Syndrome]. I gave it as an example of a victim becoming complicit in his own vicimization who might feel guilty even though it's not his fault.

And you still have nothing to say about how when a victim's pain rises, guilt decreases. There was never a question of whether Theon would have guilt, just the degree, or why he should or shouldnt. You need to take some of your own medicine & read the posts correctly & stop twisting the argument to bolster your ego.

I NEVER SAID THAT and I will point out this incorrect straw man every time you say it.

You never said those exact words, but you did say it. it's all over the thread unless youve doctored your posts by now. Read back, because I sure as hell am not wasting my time proving your own words to you. And straw men? You filled a castle with them in your replies to me alone.

I'm sorry you're not over being laughed at, but the boulder is crushing your logic.

Aw, it still smarts, eh? Enough for you to subvert the truth again.

Can you stop personally attacking me and making huge, unjustified assumptions about me and my intentions? WE ARE ARGUING ABOUT A FICTIONAL CHARACTER. There is no need for this level of personal nastiness.

Said TSell, screaming.

But it's not worth arguing about.

You got that right. And totally expected of you to turn this around on me; youre the one who got their panties in a bunch & has been making it personal with your attacks on me. Jesus Ned himself can see how obsessively you've made your replies to me.

focus on my arguments, which are firmly rooted in the text and my understanding of human psychology.

Why would you try to deny this? Theon might try to rationalize it, but can we at least be honest about it? You're not his attorney. He's not on trial. We are discussing the reality of it for him, and the reality is,

Why would you take that away from him in your zeal to absolve him of an involvement that is undeniable?

After all this overblown, & self-blowing, rhetoric you have the gall to accuse me of taking things personally or attacking you? You have points worth debating in your reply, most notably with Moat Cailin, but why would anyone who isnt willing to congratulate you, truck with you when you act like this?

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Is it going to be impossible to have this conversation without making this about me? Read back over what you just wrote. How much of it is about the book, and how much is it about me as a person? You are taking this way too personally, and being incredibly hostile. It's unnecessary. This is a discussion about a character.

I will state once more for the record: you are WRONG about what I think Theon should feel. I am not one who is prescriptive about the feelings a fictional character should have. I am focused on likely responses and how the character will develop after what he did. It's not about assigning fault or blame.

My feeling is that you are diminishing the magnitude of Theon's suffering by denying he was complicit in it. THAT is the horror of how Ramsay tortured him: he forced him to beg to have his flayed parts cut off. He forced him to participate in raping Jeyne. He forced him to betray Moat Cailin. He forced him to remain in his stinking clothes. He forced him to eat rats. I could go on. All of these things put the agency on Theon to commit these horrible acts. You and I know that he did them under duress, to survive. But he also has to own them. Telling someone who suffered trauma, "You shouldn't feel guilty" is not helpful. Telling anyone how they should feel is counterproductive. Dealing with the guilt and getting through it to acceptance and forgiveness is the goal.

So can this conversation go forward without it being about how much of a terrible person I am for disagreeing with you about a book? OR should I bow out so that you can dominate the thread, as it seems anyone who disagrees with you is subjected to an unacceptable level of vitriol. You keep telling me what I mean, how I feel, what I think, even who I am (a "young man"-- ha!). That is a straw man, so you can argue against it and try to make me sound like I'm blaming the victim. It's unfair and it is ruining an otherwise interesting conversation.

[lady crackhead]

Carry on; dont let me poop on your parade. But dont even try to make this all about me, youve been patronizing, aggressive & making it personal for a while now & that^ up there was my response to it, finally.

Is it possible for you to keep it clean & professional? If so, carry on.

[The Missing Link]

I've only read two of Reeks chapters. I just finished the one where he goes to Moat Cailan to get the Ironborn to surrender and at the end he sees "Arya".

But so far as a big believer in karma he is getting what he deserved. He betrayed his friends in the Starks, played a big part in the destruction of their home, and even though we all know he didn't kill Rickon and Bran, he tried his hardest and instead murdered two other small children. I hope he finds a way to redeem himself, but for right now he is reaping what he sowed.

With that said though. Both Ramsay and Roose Bolton should be receiving their karmic kicks soon, and I hope that they are good ones. Neither of them deserve a second chance either.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Carry on; dont let me poop on your parade. But dont even try to make this all about me, youve been patronizing, aggressive & making it personal for a while now & that^ up there was my response to it, finally.

Is it possible for you to keep it clean & professional? If so, carry on.

This is simply false but I have a feeling you are not going to see it that way. "Patronizing" is all about how you feel, and nothing whatsoever about my intentions, which are not to patronize but to debate. I am happy to debate Theon's character but not OK with being called names, having assumptions made about who I am and what I think, or having my views misrepresented in insulting ways (to wit, I'm the type of person who blames prostitutes if they get raped-- that is not cool). Not to mention you called me a douche in a post that was deleted by the mods, which is what started all this for me. If you can stick to a discussion of Theon's character and not MY character, we're good. I'd love to see a post rebutting or discussing any of my points about Theon. Just stick to Theon.

[The Mountain That Rides]

I loved his chapters!!! They were great and Entertaining! Ramsay was a great villain! Doing Evil almost unthinkable stuff! Probably the most evil character Ive ever read about! Very Entertaining! And also it was great seeing Theon again after being absent for 2 books!

[lady crackhead]

In the case of Theon, some things that he might be proud of from his time with Ramsey are his ability to trust others and get people to trust in him -- such as Able & the washerwomen, Jeyne, even the Ironborn who ended up dead -- and his ability to think strategically -- he knew who to trust in order to get away from Ramsey, and he was able to get to Jeyne and get her out of there beside

Out of those examples, only Jeyne seems likely. The washerwomen bullied Theon into going along with their plan, didnt they?

Exuding trustworthiness is something that he might need if he's going to take the throne on Pyke, though.

Maybe he's done having sex with women (or maybe not. Depends on what you call sex and/or what's actually going on with him. And regardless, who on earth can just be like: Sex? OVER IT. But I digress), but that doesn't mean "done with women." Women still exist and will still be around Theon, just like men do/will be. I'll be interested to see how that evolves, because his interactions with women as "Reek" and his interactions with women previous to that were so totally different. He really liked to banter before, but I don't know if he will now? He also otherwise was really dismissive with women at best (pre-Ramsey), and I wonder how much of that will continue. I'm especially interested to see how his relationship with Asha changes.

Ive got to believe that Theon defines sex as cock-in-cunt (literally, probably). He mentions it more than once, that all of that -sex & all the aspects of it- are over for him.

Someone who had their penis cut off would be, “like: Sex? OVER IT, “, that’s who. It’s not a great head-scratcher.

He liked to “banter” with women because he was always trying to get up a skirt; that was his primary goal, it seems. He enjoyed talking to Asha when he first met her again after 10 years, but she sounded like the exception.

If Asha can show some love for Theon, I see him as returning the sentiment, now, instead of being a prickly dick about it (although a large part of that was her fault; how can anyone deny that?). He’s broken & vulnerable. He needs someone to care about him, & hell be grateful (& probably go along with her plans). When the washerwoman puts her hand on his, one of the responses he has is to kiss her. That is his automatic response to a gesture of empathy, after all the dehumanization that he’s been put through. (The fucking part, not as much. )

Other than that, he was always hanging with the work-a-day men at Winterfell, the hunters or Jory, etc. What men in medieval times had any use for women outside of fucking & mule work? I doubt that he’s going to develop the skill of “bantering” again when there is not more skirt to hunt, anymore. As for the point that women are always going to “exist” around him, did you really need to point that out? If he has no penis & still has a desire to fuck, he’s probably going to be short & bitter with them; that’s only natural.

I dont see how his interactions with women are all that different now than from before.

Other than trying to help Jeyne out of the goodness of his heart (& even that is questionable...he seems to be doing it for his own benefit, to not have her bring trouble down, which would spread to him; to get out of Winterfell, etc.) He’s neutral with Lady Dustin, a noble & Theon has always been class conscious. But with the washerwomen he sounds like the same old Theon, referring to them as whores, looking them over with a critical eye, first & foremost appraising them on their fuckability, even though all points indicate that he cannot fuck & he definitely doesnt want to take his pants off. (And he always comes to the conclusion that he would fuck them anyway, if he could. So no change there.) Theon was a sexist; Theon is still a sexist. He may be a tad less misogynistic, but even there I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt. Had the washerwomen ("whores”) executed a successful escape, he might think more highly of women & what they are capable of beyond being his mattress.

The metal teeth idea is really cool though. PLEASE MAKE THEM IRON. That's one argument for them being black --

He’ll never suffer from anemia, again.

I wonder about this -- how different does Theon really look? The Ironborn men he led back to Ramsey seemed to recognize him -- that was an essential part of Roose's plan, if I understood correctly. I also wonder if any of his bones are broken, including in the face? If anything, I would think that would change his looks most of all, but he doesn't mention anything like that and it doesn't seem to be Ramsey's style to bust bones.

Ramsay broke his jaw when he cold-cocked him at Winterfell, but Theon never complains of it in this book. He doesnt even mention that he lost teeth from that blow; he mentions Ramsay took a hammer to his teeth.

I thought those ironmen didnt know him. I thought he knew of where some of those men came from, but didnt actually know them.

When he describes those men, he makes them sound so pathetic -- even piteous.

Even taking into account all the other things he went through, I would think that being forced to betray people who trust him *again* would be a huge source of torment.

He also describes them in a way that is less charitable than that. Calls them of weak stock, illbred sons of thralls & saltwives. So it sounds like he’s up to his old tricks again; blaming others & shirking it himself , & the guilt that goes with it.

He does call himself "Theon Turncloak" and other people call him that, too. I don't know, that's just something that I could see really undermining a person's sense of self -- being forced to be a betrayer to others in that way.

From how I understood his comments in this book, Theon never accepts that he is a bad person based on what others think of him, that he’s a turncloak. He almost sounds as if he thinks it’s unjust for them to call him that. He does acknowledge that he shouldnt have turned on Winterfell; but still he justifies it, up through the end of his story.

Ramsey forcing Theon to hurt Jeyne.

You never hear him fret over that. You hear him comment on what Ramsay made them both do. He doesnt once stop to reflect on that he had something to do with her abuse.

And it did seem important to him that he save Jeyne, and he felt guilty over not being able to do it (telling himself Theon would have done it

If you link those things & come to that conclusion, then does it have more to do with saving her out of concern? Or proving to himself that he is not Reek-rhymes-with-weak anymore, & that he is indeed Theon, a man? And a man would help a ladyin trouble. If he believes that, then that is a new concept for him in practice.

That way of thinking is probably affecting the way I think Theon should deal with his situation -

All Theon needs in term of these books & character development is support from Asha. He’s sort of like a neglected kid in a way; he’s never had the support he needed to come into his own. He already has the strength.

He'd need it to screw the bitches, referring of course actually do Ramsay's girls. At one point was Theon was whining he did seem to say something about being with one of his girls. 0_o Perhaps I misread.

Yeah, “perhaps” . ;P He doesnt whine about or even allude to having sex with any of the bitches. Id think they’d have a slightly different relationship to Theon after that went on, instead of one that looks like they think he is their adopted sibling.

Whatever Theon got, and to whatever degree he did or did not deserve it, I can tell you this much

Advocating torture & murder. Tsk, tsk. Theon made a horrid rash decision to allow them to be killed, but you took the time to think it out . That makes you so much better.

In fact, I would want him to burn in hell for all eternity - if hell forms part of your belief system

Dont know it it applies to you, but I know it applies to a lot of other posters on the board who believe Theon should be tortured & murdered : If youre a Christian, than a much, much, MUCH bigger part of your belief system would be in the forgiveness part.

No , wait. ALL of it would be. That’s the whole goddamned purpose ;D

Why do you think he develops an unbearable stink on a daily basis? It is commented on so often that it is clearly something of major significance.

At one point some Bolton guard says he stinks of horse piss.

Where does it say the he develops the stank on a daily basis? He doesnt.

And it’s been likened to all kinds of stank, including stale vomit.

Jury's still out on that one, Judge Roy Bean.