(ADWD SPOILERS) Reek Chapters

[Yellow Dog]

I never cared much for Theon in AGOT, but after ACOK I hated him passionately. I was extremely upset to read in ADWD that he is still alive.

The Reek chapters disturbed me because every word just makes me hate Theon more. Theon may be indirectly responsible for the Red Wedding, and his survival as Reek just proves what a craven piece of shit he really is.*

Hoping against hope that Arya kills him, if Asha doesn't do it first.

*No, that is not a comment on torture victims in general.

[LordBloodraven]

There's value in everyones arc of course. That's why it's a story. I love Theon/Reeks arc, and I love Victarion's arc as well. That doesn't mean I need to somehow find a way to justify what is for the most part disgusting behavior on Theon's part. I'm sure he has reasons for acting the way he does, that's what a character is. I agree that his reasons for disliking the Starks are clear and understandable.

But to somehow turn it around like Ned is in the wrong at all and its his fault for any of Theon's behavior is absolutely absurd. The one to blame for Theon is Balon, and Theon himself. Not Ned for doing what he had to do to stop Balon from raping and killing everyone, nor for taking a hostage/ward to try and prevent him from doing so again. As I've said, what more could Theon want from Ned than the way Ned treated him as a hostage? He was allowed to sit at the highest table, he became great friends with Robb the heir, and for the most part was awarded just as good if not better treatment than Jon Snow.

But instead Ned should marry him off to his 10 year old child right off the bat? Or he should treat him just as good as his own sons? He pretty much did do that yet people are still hating on him.

I couldn't say better what I feel about this. I love Theon's arc too, he's one of the most important characters in the story. His actions had important consequences; his fate in ADWD was heart-breaking, nobody deserve that but that's not a reason to bash Ned just to make Theon's actions justifiable. I have the some opinion too about the Brandon Stark's bashing (womanizer, reckless, raped Ashara Dayne...) which I feel is to justify or attenuate the consequences of Rhaegar's action.

[rue721]

Theon was suffering from a lot of psychological pressure for a very long time. And maybe you shouldn't condemn him for the actions he took while trying to find acceptance in a world where he was handicapped from the age 9.

The options for Theon were: be raised by Balon, be raised by Ned, be killed.

Maybe being raised by Ned wasn't a perfect scenario, but judging by the way Theon draws strength from his memories/connection to the Starks during the "Reek" chapters, I do think that being raised at Winterfell was a good way for things to go. Would he have been better or worse off being raised by Balon? I'd say worse, just because Theon's sense of guilt and belief in his own worth besides his physical strength are both really helpful to him now, and he wouldn't likely have had either of those things if he'd been raised under Balon the-rapist-murderer-might-is-right guy.

I think he went through with the Red Wedding because he was an arrogant kid, and he didn't yet understand the consequences of his actions. To me, it seemed as though he was thinking of it in some glorious fairy tale way: "If the Starks wouldn't give him Winterfell I'll get glory by taking it as a Greyjoy," etc. And then he did a lot of other callous things also out of arrogance and not really understanding that his actions could have dire consequences or an ability to see things from other people's points of view.

I think he's since learned a fair amount of empathy, judging from the way he empathizes with Jeyne, and I don't think he'll repeat those same mistakes -- which, in my mind, is what actually counts. It'll be interesting to see how his relationship with Asha and his feelings about being a Greyjoy evolve over the next book, imo.

As for whether Ned would kill Theon:

Does it matter? Balon had to believe that he would, so Ned made him believe he would -- which likely convinced Theon he would, too, as a side-effect. I doubt that he actually would kill Theon, because if Balon is willing to just reave and rape without even worrying about his children being murdered, then he's a lost cause and has to be killed anyway -- so at that point, why kill Theon, too?

[Guest]

I think he went through with the Red Wedding because he was an arrogant kid, and he didn't yet understand the consequences of his actions. To me, it seemed as though he was thinking of it in some glorious fairy tale way: "If the Starks wouldn't give him Winterfell I'll get glory by taking it as a Greyjoy," etc.

Can you remind me what part Theon played in the Red Wedding? I can't seem to recall......

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I don't think that they hated him. He'd been gone a long time, and they (Balon especially) had no idea how to handle him and did so in a reprehensible manner because of how foreign he acted. But before he was dragged away by Ned and Robert, he mentions how close he was to the people of Pyke. Also, what about his mother? She wept for him every day for 10 years...

Maybe BALON should have thought about that, eh? And what about the tears of all the mothers the Iron Born rape, the kids they steal, the men they kill? Honestly, why are Theon's mother's tears Ned's responsibility?

Like I said, he has a douchy father who got him into the mess in the first place, which has a psychological effect on Theon. Also, he was taken away from the people who loved him, and Balon Greyjoy isn't necessarily one of them. Balon isn't the only person in the Iron Islands.

Douchy doesn't even begin to cover it. A guy in an Ed Hardy shirt is douchy. Mass murdering, reaving, raping viking, maybe, that comes closer.

Umm... How about the option where I don't get taken away from my family and am caused serious emotional distress...

Um... not an option when your father persists in attacking innocent, peaceful people and killing and enslaving them. WE DO NOT SOW = WE KILL YOU AND STEAL YOUR WOMEN, BITCH. What should the Starks have done instead? Kill Balon and Theon? Robert did it to the Targaryens, and it seemed to work pretty well. Honestly, come up with a policy action for Ned to stop Balon that seems better to you and that would actually work that is less objectionable than taking Theon hostage and treating him like a prince for 10 years.

What I'm trying to get across here is that Theon was suffering from a lot of psychological pressure for a very long time. And maybe you shouldn't condemn him for the actions he took while trying to find acceptance in a world where he was handicapped from the age 9.

Sorry, I will always condemn the killing of innocent children, esp if the reason is vanity and insecurity. I can't understand how anyone can rationalize that but condemn Ned in the same breath.

I understand why he might not be you're favorite character, but while good intentions aren't a get-out-of-jail free card, he recognizes the mistakes he made and wants to grow as a person. And he's done no worse than virtually every other person in this series. Except screw over everyone's favorite family IN A WAR! And for that, not only does he apparently deserve to be tortured and killed, it's reprehensible for someone to like him...

Please don't put words in my mouth. I have no idea if he has good intentions now. We hardly have seen the New Improved (!!!) Theon. I will reserve judgment on his personal growth until the next book. I hope he does change his life for the better, or reaches peace. But after what he went through, it's by no means guaranteed. And believe me, I have as much criticism for other characters who have done evil in the books as I do Theon. Remember that Theon had to be tortured within an inch of his life to gain perspective. What that means remains to be seen.

I don't see why I have to defend Tyrion in order to judge Theon. They both did horrible things, but Theon killed innocent children. That's pretty much the worst thing you can do without going into Ramsay Bolton or Gregor Clegane territory. If he turns out not to be that person anymore, I will cheer for him. If he turns out to be a diabolical psychopath now, I will probably love reading about it even if I don't like him as a character.

What I don't get is why the Starks HAVE to be torn down in order for people to justify liking the Greyjoys. Like the Greyjoys all you want. I find them interesting enough, but they are on the blacker side of grey. I trust that you wouldn't want to be across Ironman's Bay from them. Enough said.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I don't think that they hated him. He'd been gone a long time, and they (Balon especially) had no idea how to handle him and did so in a reprehensible manner because of how foreign he acted. But before he was dragged away by Ned and Robert, he mentions how close he was to the people of Pyke. Also, what about his mother? She wept for him every day for 10 years...

Maybe BALON should have thought about that, eh? And what about the tears of all the mothers the Iron Born rape, the kids they steal, the men they kill? Honestly, why are Theon's mother's tears Ned's responsibility?

Like I said, he has a douchy father who got him into the mess in the first place, which has a psychological effect on Theon. Also, he was taken away from the people who loved him, and Balon Greyjoy isn't necessarily one of them. Balon isn't the only person in the Iron Islands.

Douchy doesn't even begin to cover it. A guy in an Ed Hardy shirt is douchy. Mass murdering, reaving, raping viking, maybe, that comes closer.

Umm... How about the option where I don't get taken away from my family and am caused serious emotional distress...

Um... not an option when your father persists in attacking innocent, peaceful people and killing and enslaving them. WE DO NOT SOW = WE KILL YOU AND STEAL YOUR WOMEN, BITCH. What should the Starks have done instead? Kill Balon and Theon? Robert did it to the Targaryens, and it seemed to work pretty well. Honestly, come up with a policy action for Ned to stop Balon that seems better to you and that would actually work that is less objectionable than taking Theon hostage and treating him like a prince for 10 years.

What I'm trying to get across here is that Theon was suffering from a lot of psychological pressure for a very long time. And maybe you shouldn't condemn him for the actions he took while trying to find acceptance in a world where he was handicapped from the age 9.

Sorry, I will always condemn the killing of innocent children, esp if the reason is vanity and insecurity. I can't understand how anyone can rationalize that but condemn Ned in the same breath.

I understand why he might not be you're favorite character, but while good intentions aren't a get-out-of-jail free card, he recognizes the mistakes he made and wants to grow as a person. And he's done no worse than virtually every other person in this series. Except screw over everyone's favorite family IN A WAR! And for that, not only does he apparently deserve to be tortured and killed, it's reprehensible for someone to like him...

Please don't put words in my mouth. I have no idea if he has good intentions now. We hardly have seen the New Improved (!!!) Theon. I will reserve judgment on his personal growth until the next book. I hope he does change his life for the better, or reaches peace. But after what he went through, it's by no means guaranteed. And believe me, I have as much criticism for other characters who have done evil in the books as I do Theon. Remember that Theon had to be tortured within an inch of his life to gain perspective. What that means remains to be seen.

I don't see why I have to defend Tyrion in order to judge Theon. They both did horrible things, but Theon killed innocent children. That's pretty much the worst thing you can do without going into Ramsay Bolton or Gregor Clegane territory. If he turns out not to be that person anymore, I will cheer for him. If he turns out to be a diabolical psychopath now, I will probably love reading about it even if I don't like him as a character.

What I don't get is why the Starks HAVE to be torn down in order for people to justify liking the Greyjoys. Like the Greyjoys all you want. I find them interesting enough, but they are on the blacker side of grey. I trust that you wouldn't want to be across Ironman's Bay from them. Enough said.

[David Selig]

But even though from his perspective Ned was justified at taking Theon hostage, that still gave Theon a logical reason to dislike the Starks. He had done nothing wrong yet had to leave his home and live as a hostage, always in danger to be killed if his father get rebellious again.

[Caglar]

I actually enjoyed the Reek chapters, to my own surprise too. Granted he was pathetic throughout the chapters and I used to hate him before as well. However I began to pity him and now my hatred for the bastard bolton outgrew that of Theon. Maybe I forgive a bit too easily. I also think that I liked the chapters because all of them were in the north and some of them in Winterfell.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

But even though from his perspective Ned was justified at taking Theon hostage, that still gave Theon a logical reason to dislike the Starks. He had done nothing wrong yet had to leave his home and live as a hostage, always in danger to be killed if his father get rebellious again.

It could also give him a logical reason to dislike his father. The Starks treated him better than his own family did, excepting maybe his poor mother. And that doesn't justify him killing the miller's children.

[Pale_Valkyrie]

It remains amazing how no matter what the merits of the situation, you will always find people who just want to buck the trend for the hell of it.

Justifying Theon's actions, or picking as your forum name the symbol of the avowed reavers, pillagers, rapers and murderers of Westeros is one such example.

Honestly, the Krakens and their entire society don't have a single redeemable quality - their entire reason for living is to murder, rape and pillage the resources that other peoples have built up through toil and sweat and blood.

How people identify with Victarrion, Theon or even Asha is beyond me. And yet clearly there are such people, even in this forum.

I have to ask the question: What strange worldview drives such people?

The Iron Men are no better than Somali pirates or violent criminals who carjack people at intersections and then rape and murder them before driving off in their stolen SUV's.

Only their entire nation is founded on this credo. How can anyone identify with them unless you are willing to overlook this massive flaw in their collective worldview?

You're acting like the Ironmen have a monopoly on pillage, rape, and murder. Every single culture in the series practices pillage, rape, and murder on a regular basis. Every POV character we see tour the interior of Westeros tells us about how all these "chivalrous knights," from any and every army you can name, go around razing villages because some guy they're following wants a crown. The Dothraki are essentially the Ironmen on horses intsead of boats. And even if Dany's army doesn't directly rape the cultures it invades (though I seriously doubt she could eliminate it completely), I'm sure rape, murder, and pillaging is prevalent in the broken, battered cities she leaves in her wake.

There is no culture with a moral high ground in this story. Period. (Or, really, in life). They are do the exact same things, and dress it differently. Tywin's sack of Kingslanding and the raiding of the Riverlands, Bolton's sack of Winterfell, etc., etc., how is it any different? Except that the Ironmen are actually honest about what they are? I think that in itself is a redeeming quality, because I will take the honest monster over the monster that tries to preach to me about its righteousness as it commits atrocities any day.

[Sivin]

Sorry, I will always condemn the killing of innocent children, esp if the reason is vanity and insecurity. I can't understand how anyone can rationalize that but condemn Ned in the same breath.

Fair enough, I didn't write what I intended. What I meant is that I don't think that the torture and death of a character should be condoned when he is no worse than most of the "favorites".

And as far as condemning the murder of children. I totally get it if that's a deal-breaker. If I met Theon in real life and knew what he did, then I would turn around and walk away. As it is, with a select number of characters (many of whom have committed crimes just as horrible), and the fact that they were both fictional and I never saw them, I am willing to forgive that offense.

If he were to rape someone, though, that's it. Even fictional, I cannot forgive that. (Just to show you that I do have limits to what I will forgive.)

Please don't put words in my mouth. I have no idea if he has good intentions now. We hardly have seen the New Improved (!!!) Theon. I will reserve judgment on his personal growth until the next book. I hope he does change his life for the better, or reaches peace. But after what he went through, it's by no means guaranteed. And believe me, I have as much criticism for other characters who have done evil in the books as I do Theon. Remember that Theon had to be tortured within an inch of his life to gain perspective. What that means remains to be seen.

I don't see why I have to defend Tyrion in order to judge Theon. They both did horrible things, but Theon killed innocent children. That's pretty much the worst thing you can do without going into Ramsay Bolton or Gregor Clegane territory. If he turns out not to be that person anymore, I will cheer for him. If he turns out to be a diabolical psychopath now, I will probably love reading about it even if I don't like him as a character.

I don't mean to be attacking you, if that's what it looks like. I'm just giving my reasons for why Theon shouldn't be Judas-ized.

What I don't get is why the Starks HAVE to be torn down in order for people to justify liking the Greyjoys. Like the Greyjoys all you want. I find them interesting enough, but they are on the blacker side of grey. I trust that you wouldn't want to be across Ironman's Bay from them. Enough said.

I don't mean to tear down the Starks for the sake of making the Greyjoys look better, I'm just trying to point out that they aren't necessarily the nicest people in existence, and how that would psychologically harm Theon as a young child.

The Ironborn = a bunch of marauding dicks who choose to be pirates.

Theon = a kid who grew up with some severe placement issues and did some awful things to try and be accepted by his family.

Theon deserves, at the very least, your pity. I give him my empathy.

But that's all in my opinion, though. Take it as you will.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Fair enough, I didn't write what I intended. What I meant is that I don't think that the torture and death of a character should be condoned when he is no worse than most of the "favorites".

In no way have I ever condoned his torture. I don't think anyone could possibly deserve what happened to him. That's something to take up with the people who said it.

If he were to rape someone, though, that's it. Even fictional, I cannot forgive that. (Just to show you that I do have limits to what I will forgive.)

Rape is worse than killing children? Ok...

I don't mean to be attacking you, if that's what it looks like. I'm just giving my reasons for why Theon shouldn't be Judas-ized.

Isn't there a middle ground between Judas-izing him and making excuses for inexcusable choices? You don't have to compare him to Tyrion or Jaime, as if b/c I like them better, they must be better people. They're not wonderful people, but I find their characters more sympathetic. You find Theon more sympathetic. That's just taste. I'm not going to defend their choices, so why defend Theon's?

I don't mean to tear down the Starks for the sake of making the Greyjoys look better, I'm just trying to point out that they aren't necessarily the nicest people in existence, and how that would psychologically harm Theon as a young child.

They are very close to, if not the, nicest noble house in Westeros. They were much nicer to Theon than they had to be. It was, by definition, a sucky situation to grow up in, but I can't blame the Starks for that. I blame Balon Greyjoy.

I do pity Theon. It's hard not to after what happened to him. Before that? Eh. Not really. I thought he was a dick. He has gone some really fascinating places and Martin has written him incredibly well. I am now interested in what happens to him, when before this, I wanted him to die. So there's that.

[GreenSeeress]

I despised Theon before ADWD, and I despise him still, but I found the Reek chapters compelling reading. And while I don't think Theon has yet been redeemed -- if such a thing is even possible, given his crimes -- I think he has progressed more as a character than Cersei has after HER ritual humiliation.

[Sivin]

In no way have I ever condoned his torture. I don't think anyone could possibly deserve what happened to him. That's something to take up with the people who said it.

Rape is worse than killing children? Ok...

Isn't there a middle ground between Judas-izing him and making excuses for inexcusable choices? You don't have to compare him to Tyrion or Jaime, as if b/c I like them better, they must be better people. They're not wonderful people, but I find their characters more sympathetic. You find Theon more sympathetic. That's just taste. I'm not going to defend their choices, so why defend Theon's?

They are very close to, if not the, nicest noble house in Westeros. They were much nicer to Theon than they had to be. It was, by definition, a sucky situation to grow up in, but I can't blame the Starks for that. I blame Balon Greyjoy.

I do pity Theon. It's hard not to after what happened to him. Before that? Eh. Not really. I thought he was a dick. He has gone some really fascinating places and Martin has written him incredibly well. I am now interested in what happens to him, when before this, I wanted him to die. So there's that.

Ok. Fair enough.

Rape is worse than killing children? Ok...

The dead don't suffer after their death. Rape victims often suffer for decades. So yes, rape is worse than murder in my eyes.

Also, this just occurred to me, and isn't necessarily intended for you Tyrosh, the whole "The Starks let Theon eat at the high table" argument for why they're the nicest house in Westeros is kind of moot because Theon also sits at the high table during Ramsay's wedding feast... Just saying.

I'd rather stay with the Tully's (even though I don't like any of them), Manderly's (Wyman seemed pretty cool), Dornish (yeah, sand snakes. And I really liked Oberyn), Tyrell's (they're like the Lannister's, except without an uberdouche lord and a psycho queen), Arryn's(pre-Lysa era), or Baratheon's (likely it would be Renly who gained custody due to being the lord of Storms End, and what can I say? Gay guys are usually super-nice) than the Starks if I were to be a ward of one of the Westerosi families.

[lady crackhead]

If he were to rape someone, though, that's it. Even fictional, I cannot forgive that. (Just to show you that I do have limits to what I will forgive.)

I like you.

More to come.

EDITED:

Just a few things:

Ned irrefutably was the catalyst for the ensuing 5 book shitstorm, I dont care how you paint it. Not Catlyn or Sansa (all you women-haters), & not Theon. Ned. He set everything in motion & the timer on the destruction of his family & house. His intentions dont matter. Bad things come just as easily from good intentions than not.

And thank god for it or we wouldnt have these great reads ;p

My comments about Ned, though passionate, didnt portray him as a monster. But they did throw onto him some of the same light that is flashed on Theon, and it turns out when you judge everyone in a harsh light, you find some grey patches. Ned did those things, Ned said those things. It's people's general hypocrisy & childish vindictiveness against anyone who so much a breathes on a Stark that causes the butthurt reactions of, ' Ned was not a monster, you monster!'

Frakken Krakken, Yes, I started out with that position & it is my base at heart. But then you run into a wall of stupidity, fast, when you try to address the fact of why an excellently written character is so loathed that readers will say they skipped his chapters. Insanity. Everyone who has a bouncing bone for the Starks will attack & usually on moral grounds. As if you can defend characters in a fantasy novel on moral grounds, & especially in this type of grey world. Their names are GREYjoy and STARK for a reason.

I dont give a fuck to defend Theon on moral grounds but I will when I feel like it. As far as Im concerned, I hope he stays firmly dark-grey, and fully human, & isnt punished for it anymore like he was fucking Hester Prynne. It's a fantasy book, for fucks sake. Fantasy is not solely relegated to a light side. And that goes for reader's reactions to characters. You loving a Stark doesnt make you any more of an upright moral person than I, who likes Theon.

And in fact, it's easy & shallow to like the perfect. The hero who shines his same holy light back at you & in whom you like to see yourself reflected. It's more of a challenge to understand something more complex. A more human character.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

You're acting like the Ironmen have a monopoly on pillage, rape, and murder.

They don't have a monopoly on it, but they are the only culture in Westeros who embraces it as a way of life. WE DO NOT SOW, folks. That means, we steal your shit and kill you or enslave you, and that's ALL we do. That's not all anyone else does. Maybe the Dothraki, but they are not in Westeros and I wouldn't want to be their neighbor either.

Every single culture in the series practices pillage, rape, and murder on a regular basis.

There is at least criticism of rape and pillage in Westeros. We see rapists being sent to the Wall, or being executed. Gregor Clegane is widely considered a monster for doing exactly what the Iron Born do for a living. I don't buy this argument at all.

There is no culture with a moral high ground in this story. Period. (Or, really, in life). They are do the exact same things, and dress it differently.

I don't buy this argument either. Over the course of history, human society HAS progressed away from embracing rape, pillage, and raze as a method of warfare or way of life. It still happens, but there is criticism of it and abhorrence of it. I don't go for the cultural relativism argument and you're unlikely to convince me of its validity here.

Tywin's sack of Kingslanding and the raiding of the Riverlands, Bolton's sack of Winterfell, etc., etc., how is it any different? Except that the Ironmen are actually honest about what they are?

Tywin and Roose, two psychopaths? Those are your counterexamples? They are outliers, not the norm. I do think it's definitely arguable that their evils are more tolerated than they should be, but it's not all that Westeros does. They actually DO sow.

The dead don't suffer after their death. Rape victims often suffer for decades. So yes, rape is worse than murder in my eyes.

When you kill a child, you basically kill the whole family. This could just be my bias. I also think that rape does not have to define the rest of your life or destroy you, but your child being murdered pretty much does.

I'd rather stay with the Tully's (even though I don't like any of them), Manderly's (Wyman seemed pretty cool), Dornish (yeah, sand snakes. And I really liked Oberyn), Tyrell's (they're like the Lannister's, except without an uberdouche lord and a psycho queen), Arryn's(pre-Lysa era), or Baratheon's (likely it would be Renly who gained custody due to being the lord of Storms End, and what can I say? Gay guys are usually super-nice) than the Starks if I were to be a ward of one of the Westerosi families.

Fair enough. I think being Oberyn's ward would have been a wild ride. Other than that, no thanks on most of these. (Saying "the Arryns before Lysa" is not fair, as it would not have been pre-Lysa, and Renly is not much older than Theon, so he would have been with Robert and Cersei, and I say no thanks to that one).

[Sivin]

Fair enough. I think being Oberyn's ward would have been a wild ride. Other than that, no thanks on most of these. (Saying "the Arryns before Lysa" is not fair, as it would not have been pre-Lysa, and Renly is not much older than Theon, so he would have been with Robert and Cersei, and I say no thanks to that one).

Sorry, I meant the Arryn's before Jon's death in Kings Landing. I should have phrased that differently.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

My comments about Ned, though passionate, didnt portray him as a monster. But they did throw onto him some of the same light that is flashed on Theon, and it turns out when you judge everyone in a harsh light, you find some grey patches. Ned did those things, Ned said those things. It's people's general hypocrisy & childish vindictiveness against anyone who so much a breathes on a Stark that causes the butthurt reactions of, ' Ned was not a monster, you monster!'

Is there any way to have this conversation without calling other posters hypocrites, childish, vindictive, or butthurt? I mean, if we're trying to be civil and not get personal with people, that would be nice.

[Sivin]

I like you.

I get that a lot. ;)

Hey, (I know he doesn't read the forums) but how funny would it be if George were reading this thread and is laughing to himself and saying "Redemption, bravery, return to sanity... "You have to know your name" ha! that was just some random nonsense from a crazy motherfucker. I mean, who would actually say that if they were sane? Ha!"

[Pale_Valkyrie]

They don't have a monopoly on it, but they are the only culture in Westeros who embraces it as a way of life. WE DO NOT SOW, folks. That means, we steal your shit and kill you or enslave you, and that's ALL we do. That's not all anyone else does. Maybe the Dothraki, but they are not in Westeros and I wouldn't want to be their neighbor either.

So, it's less evil to do it as long as they don't embrace it? YMMV, but I guess I just don't understand how a culture that pillages and rapes can be less detestable if they do other stuff too.

There is at least criticism of rape and pillage in Westeros. We see rapists being sent to the Wall, or being executed. Gregor Clegane is widely considered a monster for doing exactly what the Iron Born do for a living. I don't buy this argument at all.

I'm sure the small folk that were raped, pillaged, and murdered by Lannister, Stark, Targaryen, etc. bannermen will rest comfortably in their graves knowing that the perpetrators were criticized for it afterwards. Rapists are sent to the wall during PEACE time. Not those that perpetrate it during a sack. (Unless you're in Stannis's army, MAYBE. And that's a big maybe.)

And yeah, Gregor is seen as a monster, but they knighted him all the same, and no one put him down like a dog or sent him to the NW, they let him stay a knight and have a keep. THAT is what Westerosi criticism is worth. I wonder what Sandor would say about this?

I don't buy this argument either. Over the course of history, human society HAS progressed away from embracing rape, pillage, and raze as a method of warfare or way of life. It still happens, but there is criticism of it and abhorrence of it. I don't go for the cultural relativism argument and you're unlikely to convince me of its validity here.

I don't think it has progressed as much as you may think. Maybe we don't embrace it, but we still do it. Whether or not it is accepted, it IS perpetrated. Why should it matter whether it is embraced or not? If we as a culture think it's evil, and we still do it, how does that give us the moral high ground? In fact, if we think it's evil and we ultimately allow it to happen to achieve our goals, doesn't that make us WORSE?

Tywin and Roose, two psychopaths? Those are your counterexamples? They are outliers, not the norm. I do think it's definitely arguable that their evils are more tolerated than they should be, but it's not all that Westeros does. They actually DO sow.

Those are not the only two examples that exist in the book, just the two I flipped out there off the top of my head. How many times in the book do villagers talk about how they were ravaged by "two legged wolves"? Is there a lord in this book that doesn't have banner men that go wild and pillage? Also, I don't understand how being a person that also farms in addition to killing and raping makes the killing and raping less evil. Jaime talks about how Steelshanks is a guy that will go and kill and rape and then go home and farm--the standard solider. Why is his crime less disgusting than that of the Ironborn? Because he lives "acceptably" when he's not killing and raping?

I'm not trying to argue that reaving is acceptable. I just happen to find the Ironborn, Dorthraki, Westerosi, etc. brand of "way of life" self-servingly violent in equal measure, if presented differently, and I don't think singling the Ironborn out is valid.