[ ADwD Spoilers ] Jon Connington and Young Griff

[BarrileteCosmico]

In theory, even Illyrio doesn't have to know that Aegon is fake (although he might well). Only Varys, who supposedly plucked Aegon from King's Landing during the Sack, would have to know.

Actually, some users have speculated that YG is actually Illyrio's son. The very emotive way in which Illyrio said goodbye to YG, his high praise of him, and Illyrio's dodgy motives to be working towards Targ restoration all seem to support this, which is the idea I like most if it turns out he's not really Aegon.

[Recently]

It seems to me that those who believe Aegon is exactly what he is said to be are very often people who don't like Dany.

I think Martin spelled out pretty clearly in the house of the undying that Dany would be the "slayer of lies", involving a stone beast, a king with blue eyes who cast no shadow and who wields a shining sword, and a mummer's dragon being cheered by a crowd.

True. But I find it funny that before ADwD came out, the idea that Aegon was actually alive and somehow escaped death was one of those minority theories that people had (due to the same prophecies that Dany has at the house of undying). Now that this theory "came true" so to say, people instantly changed their minds and now suspect hes fake (the people that now think hes fake I assume now believe he is dead, I don't see how he would survive without Varys's help).

[Kalasin]

I like Dany and I'm really hoping this is the real Aegon. I mean, I'm not Dany's hugest fan but I think it'd be awesome for her nephew to still be alive. It could help shift her perspective on everything in an interesting way.

It would definitely mess her up a bit. She's based her entire life around the conviction that she's the rightful queen of the seven kingdoms.

[Tarthking]

I think in the brief time we've known him Aegon has already shown himself to be very different from Quentyn. I can see him being much better with the dragons. But I do think his not being a main character is a strike against him. They would have to work really hard in the last two books to make him really significant enough to be our hero/ruler at the end (I know I put those two things together and they might not be the same thing). If all of a sudden it was going to turn around and "no, oops, forget Dany and Jon - Aegon's the one to pay attention to" it would be very surprising, especially since there was very little effort to get to know him in this book - a lost opportunity.

I'm not so sure I agree with this. This assumes that GRRM will finish the series in 2 more books. If that is the case, then it is fairly late to introduce a major character and plot. Although, you could say the same thing about the Greyjoys and Martells introduced in AFFC, and they seem important enough to greatly affect the plot, even though introduced late. If the series is more than 2 books, then any character has plenty of time to become a major one, including Penny the dog riding dwarf.

Furthermore, Aegon wasn't just introduced in this book - he's been mentioned throughout the series. Stannis Baratheon didn't show up at all in the first book, but he was mentioned enough that it wasn't a surprise when he showed up in the second. The same is kind of true for Aegon, except that he is supposed to be dead.

Finally, I generally agree with you that Aegon is not an important character in and of himself. However, his importance has to do with the plans and schemes of the major characters that we have known throughout the series, particularly Varys, and the effect that a Targaryen heir has on various claims to the throne. Martin may also be using him in juxtaposition to other characters, especially if R + L = J. So while he is not as major a character as Dany, Jon, Bran, or even Jaime, he's not pointless either.

[Brewmaster]

It seems to me that those who believe Aegon is exactly what he is said to be are very often people who don't like Dany.

I don't really agree with this. I've always been a Dany fan and I believe Aegon is Aegon. I'm not sure what gives you this opinion.

Dany has been feeling alone and constantly wanting to get closer to people that knew her family for most of the series. If Aegon is real, there's no reason to feel bad for Dany. She should welcome it. Of course, things are unlikely to be "happily ever after" for anyone in this series.

I also think, as a fan of Dany, it should be interesting to see how she does react to a possible living relative. In fact it is probably more interesting, and more important to her character growth to have to be at odds, politically, with Aegon if this does happen. She's been reluctantly learning that not everything she learned about her family and their enemies from Viserys was true. She gets these tidbits from Selmy from time to time, and even Jorah before him, but she's still pretty dismissive of any other points of view.

If she finds herself needing to oppose her own nephew, and Rhaegar's son, she may need to create some interesting alliances with houses she's been taught to hate. And hopefully that kind of situation should lead her to draw some interesting conclusions about many of the things she grew up believing.

Aegon being Aegon is good for Dany and Dany's story arc.

Aegon being a fake seems to be the option that is less interesting to Dany's story. She hears of this Aegon; She's suspicious due to Quaithe's prophecy; She defeats him or reveals him as false in some way and moves on.

sounds extremely meh. :dunno:

[Dragonfish]

True. But I find it funny that before ADwD came out, the idea that Aegon was actually alive and somehow escaped death was one of those minority theories that people had (due to the same prophecies that Dany has at the house of undying). Now that this theory "came true" so to say, people instantly changed their minds and now suspect hes fake (the people that now think hes fake I assume now believe he is dead, I don't see how he would survive without Varys's help).

IIRC, people have been theorizing that we'd see a fake Aegon since ACoK.

[bens]

IIRC, people have been theorizing that we'd see a fake Aegon since ACoK.

Sure, but it was always a minority view, considered to be a slightly off-the-wall theory with its only fairly solid basis being the cloth-dragon vision in the Houses of the Undying.

[Dragonfish]

Sure, but it was always a minority view, considered to be a slightly off-the-wall theory with its only fairly solid basis being the cloth-dragon vision in the Houses of the Undying.

Ok, but the poster I was quoting implied that the fake-Aegon theory was a recent thing. It wasn't.

[theladyinspring]

This Young Griff needs to learn some humility. He has none at all. I don't want to see him win the Iron Throne or Dany's allegiance unless he can learn some. I wouldn't mind seeing him have some success in battle though. Robb is dead, Jon may be. We need some young warriors.

[Plumed Quetzalcoatl]

This Young Griff needs to learn some humility. He has none at all. I don't want to see him win the Iron Throne or Dany's allegiance unless he can learn some. I wouldn't mind seeing him have some success in battle though. Robb is dead, Jon may be. We need some young warriors.

He didn't seem cocky to me at all. At least not anymore cocky than members of other great houses.

[Lord Godric]

It seems to me that those who believe Aegon is exactly what he is said to be are very often people who don't like Dany.

I think Martin spelled out pretty clearly in the house of the undying that Dany would be the "slayer of lies", involving a stone beast, a king with blue eyes who cast no shadow and who wields a shining sword, and a mummer's dragon being cheered by a crowd.

I think and hope Aegon is a fake and I still don't like Dany. I interpreted the scene from the House of the Undying the same way you did and I do not like the idea of a real Targaryen popping up in book 5 of 7 and throwing everything that has been in motion since book one on it's head. Like I said, I don't like Dany (mainly because I think she is boring and has lost sight of who she really is and her real mission) but I have accepted she will come to Westeros and rule.

Now, even though I think Aegon is a fake I still like this whole plot that is developing around him and Jon Connington. And I think making him a fake Targaryen would just make his story even more interesting than if he was really Rhaegar's son.

[variance]

Aegon being Aegon is good for Dany and Dany's story arc.

Aegon being a fake seems to be the option that is less interesting to Dany's story. She hears of this Aegon; She's suspicious due to Quaithe's prophecy; She defeats him or reveals him as false in some way and moves on.

sounds extremely meh. :dunno:

She could suspect him to being fake, kill him, and then learn that he really is Aegon. Now that is a twist.

This Young Griff needs to learn some humility. He has none at all. I don't want to see him win the Iron Throne or Dany's allegiance unless he can learn some. I wouldn't mind seeing him have some success in battle though. Robb is dead, Jon may be. We need some young warriors.

He didn't seem arrogant to me at all. Dany is far more arrogant.

[dunbarbw]

This Young Griff needs to learn some humility. He has none at all. I don't want to see him win the Iron Throne or Dany's allegiance unless he can learn some. I wouldn't mind seeing him have some success in battle though. Robb is dead, Jon may be. We need some young warriors.

Because Danerys Targaryen, Stormborn, Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Queen of Meereen, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, and Blood of the Dragon is the most humble girl in the entire series.

[variance]

Because Danerys Targaryen, Stormborn, Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Queen of Meereen, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, and Blood of the Dragon is the most humble girl in the entire series.

Those long list of titles made me laugh when she only ruled Meereen. Talk about having to feed your ego.

[theladyinspring]

He's not Joffrey-levels of arrogant and he is still young, but the boy has been raised to be a prince, given the best training and education, and taught he would rule. His reaction to being outsmarted in a game of cyvasse was to throw things and order someone else to clean it up. Can't imagine Jon acting that way. Or Dany, and they're young too. If you want to be called Your Grace, you have to have some grace. I like that he's confident and decisive, but is he really ready to lead a battle? Didn't he freeze in fear when the stone men attacked? GRRM leaves a lot of hints that he's a bit too big for his britches, but we'll see.

The comparison with Dany is strange. First, she didn't go her whole life thinking she'd rule. It was to be Viserys. She was just the pawn who would buy him an army for his kingdom. There is no position humbler than having no control over your own destiny. Having to stand there as your brother twists your nipples and pervs on you. She was a meek and timid girl, which is not the personality that I would want for Griff, but arrogant it is not. Second, she was literally sold and raped and had to learn and work her way to owning her power. Now in this last book she has seen her endeavors crumbling and as she says, her joy has turned to ashes. That's being humbled, and she already started off pretty low which is why she empathizes with others who are low. Same with Jon Snow, which is why he was displaying good leadership qualities from the moment he reached The Wall, and why he was chosen to be groomed as a future Lord Commander. So I want Griff to learn humility as well.

[variance]

He's not Joffrey-levels of arrogant and he is still young, but the boy has been raised to be a prince, given the best training and education, and taught he would rule. His reaction to being outsmarted in a game of cyvasse was to throw things and order someone else to clean it up. Can't imagine Jon acting that way. Or Dany, and they're young too. If you want to be called Your Grace, you have to have some grace. I like that he's confident and decisive, but is he really ready to lead a battle? Didn't he freeze in fear when the stone men attacked? GRRM leaves a lot of hints that he's a bit too big for his britches, but we'll see.

The comparison with Dany is strange. First, she didn't go her whole life thinking she'd rule. It was to be Viserys. She was just the pawn who would buy him an army for his kingdom. There is no position humbler than having no control over your own destiny. Having to stand there as your brother twists your nipples and pervs on you. She was a meek and timid girl, which is not the personality that I would want for Griff, but arrogant it is not. Second, she was literally sold and raped and had to learn and work her way to owning her power. Now in this last book she has seen her endeavors crumbling and as she says, her joy has turned to ashes. That's being humbled, and she already started off pretty low which is why she empathizes with others who are low. Same with Jon Snow, which is why he was displaying good leadership qualities from the moment he reached The Wall, and why he was chosen to be groomed as a future Lord Commander. So I want Griff to learn humility as well.

It specifically said that Aegon lived among the low born to allow him to have sympathy for them and that he knows what it likes to have dirt on his hands. He also plans on leading the battle for Storm's End.

Dany lived a sheltered life until she married as queen of the Dothraki. She was a timid girl, until she lived among barbarians that rape and pillage villages. She has no clue what it is like to be a peasant or have dirt on her hands. She went from a pampered girl to a pampered queen that rides horses.

No doubt she had some form of sympathy. That sympathy bit her in the ass after saving a woman from being raped, when that woman killed her 'sun and stars' and her child. Now she is a walking contradiction. The same girl who strung up Meereenese nobles couldn't do what it took to stop peasants from being slaughtered by them. She goes through drastic mood swings as she goes from 'just a girl' to 'dragon'. This was seen in a number of her judgments at court. I mean she literally treated that noble boy who lost everything disdain. Is what she possesses really sympathy? It seems like borderline madness that she is struggling against to me.

[salmonprotocol34]

It seems to me that those who believe Aegon is exactly what he is said to be are very often people who don't like Dany.

I think Martin spelled out pretty clearly in the house of the undying that Dany would be the "slayer of lies", involving a stone beast, a king with blue eyes who cast no shadow and who wields a shining sword, and a mummer's dragon being cheered by a crowd.

so you're saying the mummer's dragon is aegon?

so is the "king with blue eyes who cast no shadow and who wields a shining sword" stannis?

and i think the thing with prophecies like this is that they become self fulfilling, dany is coninually looking for people to complete the prophecies that were told to her. there are many times where she wonders who the people are that have completed her "three treasons." she says it's jorah for "love" and she wonders if ben plumm was the last one, or whether there would be more.

i'm just trying to convey that i'm not sure that prophecies are all that they appear to be, only that people's beliefs in the prophecies that seem to make them true

[tozka]

He's not Joffrey-levels of arrogant and he is still young, but the boy has been raised to be a prince, given the best training and education, and taught he would rule. His reaction to being outsmarted in a game of cyvasse was to throw things and order someone else to clean it up. Can't imagine Jon acting that way.

Really? Don't you remember the first interactions between Jon and Tyrion? Tyrion likes to provoke people, it's a way he tests them - he provokes Jon and ends up being thrown in the mud, he deceives Aegon in the game, which of course frustrates Aegon, but he listens to Tyrion as his actions later shows up.

A certain arrogance is expected of any good ruler. I don't mean over the top arrogance but one that is based on some solid foundation. After all this is a person who has to take life-death decisions every day. Doubting yourself is a good thing but questioning yourself is not.

[Lord Godric]

so you're saying the mummer's dragon is aegon?

so is the "king with blue eyes who cast no shadow and who wields a shining sword" stannis?

and i think the thing with prophecies like this is that they become self fulfilling, dany is coninually looking for people to complete the prophecies that were told to her. there are many times where she wonders who the people are that have completed her "three treasons." she says it's jorah for "love" and she wonders if ben plumm was the last one, or whether there would be more.

i'm just trying to convey that i'm not sure that prophecies are all that they appear to be, only that people's beliefs in the prophecies that seem to make them true

Does Dany think much on the Mummer's dragon though? Even when Quaithe uses the exact phrase "mummer's dragon" Dany instead chooses to focus on the "perfumed seneschal" bit. Of course, that doesn't mean she has forgotten entirely. But the piece about the three treasons is something that Dany is definitely making into a self-fulfilling prophecy for she thinks on it all the time. But the mummer's dragon hardly gets any thought from Dany.

[variance]

Really? Don't you remember the first interactions between Jon and Tyrion? Tyrion likes to provoke people, it's a way he tests them - he provokes Jon and ends up being thrown in the mud, he deceives Aegon in the game, which of course frustrates Aegon, but he listens to Tyrion as his actions later shows up.

A certain arrogance is expected of any good ruler. I don't mean over the top arrogance but one that is based on some solid foundation. After all this is a person who has to take life-death decisions every day. Doubting yourself is a good thing but questioning yourself is not.

Jon ultimately listened to Tyrion as well.

Does Dany think much on the Mummer's dragon though? Even when Quaithe uses the exact phrase "mummer's dragon" Dany instead chooses to focus on the "perfumed seneschal" bit. Of course, that doesn't mean she has forgotten entirely. But the piece about the three treasons is something that Dany is definitely making into a self-fulfilling prophecy for she thinks on it all the time. But the mummer's dragon hardly gets any thought from Dany.

It just hasn't come to play yet. I can already picture her immediately assuming Aegon is the mummer's dragon.