[ ADwD Spoilers ] Jon Connington and Young Griff

[Lord Godric]

It was brought up in another thread that Martin has hinted that the three heads of the dragon need not all be a Targaryen. If this true, then why should a Targaryen or Targaryen pretender be assumed just because the word or symbol of a dragon is used? You asked who the mummer's dragon could be if not Aegon; why not Hizdhar? We've seen him amid a cheering crowd. We know there is something off about him and the politics surrounding his rise to kingship. The situation with Hizdhar and Meereen are far more pressing and immediate than Aegon, who has headed in the opposite direction. There are plenty of lies to uncover in Meereen, and whether or not Hizdhar is aware of what's happening he is definitely a part of this charade, he may only be a pawn, but he's involved.

But Quaithe uses the same phrase to describe someone who was coming to Meereen. I certainly don't think it is a coincidence on GRRM's part to use the same terminology. If we have to select out of all the people we know coming to find Dany at the beginning of ADwD which one is the mummer's dragon there is only one possible choice, IMO.

[A Wolf of Winterfell]

But Quaithe uses the same phrase to describe someone who was coming to Meereen. I certainly don't think it is a coincidence on GRRM's part to use the same terminology. If we have to select out of all the people we know coming to find Dany at the beginning of ADwD which one is the mummer's dragon there is only one possible choice, IMO.

This is Quaithe's prophesy:

The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

"Soon comes" could be interpreted as an ambiguous reference to time, not just direction. Quaithe is not clear on where the danger is coming from, just that it is coming, and all these "threats" will follow the arrival of the pale mare. Not every danger has to come from outside of Meereen's walls, they can easily come from within. Hizdhar comes to Dany as her king after the incident of the diseased rider and his horse. Nothing in Quaithe's words specify that the individuals in question have to "come to Meereen", most of them are outside forces, but that doesn't have to mean the mummer's dragon is as well.

I find it strange that Dany is surrounded by so many enemies in Meereen, yet the Quaithe tells her not to trust all of these outside forces, but doesn't mention a single one from within? She does bring up the perfumed seneschal, but that's so obvious even Dany immediately thinks Reznak. If she really is referring to Reznak he doesn't need to come to her, he's already there in the pyramid as one of her advisers, which might be why the Quaithe mentions him separately from the others. I've read that some people think it's the boat Tyrion and the red priest were on, it's quite possible, and if that is the case another outside entity to be wary of.

[Flea Bottom's Up!]

"Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. Mother of Dragons...slayer of lies..."

To me, this whole section is referring to something to do with Melisandre/Rh'llor/Stannis. It's that part of the story because at least two of the three elements are associated with them. On the other hand, Young Griff's first attempt at battle is going to be an attack on Storm's End and that's the home of the Baratheons. I'm almost sure he will succeed (only worried a bit about his potential for cowardice)...so he very well might fit right in with the blue-eyed king and the stone beast. I can definitely see crowds cheering him.

He's very princely. Wants to lead the battle. Refuses to be "biddable". Very knowledgable and learned yet not afraid of action. I think the people will welcome him because he seems perfect and he's going to be presented as a Targaryen. Much better prospect than Stannis or Tommen or the Ironmen. The Westerosi are going to fricking love him.

It could work in that light. Stannis as Azor Ahai Reborn with lightbringer being presented to a cheering crowd and then waking a 'false' dragon. The first might relate to the scenes at Dragonstone, the second to the exploits in the North, and the third is yet to come.

I'd buy it (but then I think that Aegon/Young Griff is the real Aegon).

[Golden Skull]

I think the general opinion is that these are three distinct prophecies:

The blued eye'd prince is Stannis.

The Mummer's Dragon is Aegon (who might be a Blackfyre through his mother's side or a real Targ controlled by Varys).

The stone beast is ??? but I'm thinking it is someone with greyscale bleaching the disease everywhere. But I'm not sure.

[It is none]

He didn't seem cocky to me at all. At least not anymore cocky than members of other great houses.

Well he seemed pretty cocky to me.

Before his cyvasse game with tyrion he vows to win and reacts to losing with petulance. Not only does he knock over the board but he orders tyrion to pick up the pieces. He froze when attacked by the third stone man and had to be saved by tyrion. Afterwards, he gave no thanks to the man who saved him and did not acknowledge his failure of nerve in any way...not then and not once he is in westeros and wants to lead the battle. It doesn not seem to me that he has any humility at all.

[Ser Justin the Tall]

Tyrion actually asserted that he saw more Targaryen in him when he kicked the cyvasse table, inferring that he saw a bit of the crazy side (Mad Aerys) in Aegon. Aegon is Aegon, let's not assume otherwise.

[Spring Bass]

While I'm getting tired of rightful heirs popping up all over the place, I think that the fakeAegon story could end up being a clever subversion of King Arthur. It's clear that living on a pole boat and being given the classic Arthurian education does not a humble and great king make.

I do think that Aegon's so-called education amongst the common folk, designed to make him humble and understanding, has not succeeded. Partially that's because he knows he is a Prince and destined for a kingdom, but also because he's never really felt it. His life has always been sheltered, unlike Daenerys, who knew hunger and fear when she was dragged around the Free Cities by Viserys in her early childhood, and sold to Khal Drogo*.

Not to mention that he gets implicitly linked to Aegon V on a number of occasions, both with the "education amongst the smallfolk" point, and with the straw hat he's wearing when Tyrion first sees him. Aegon V spent his youth among the common folk with Ser Duncan, but it didn't make him a great leader. He was a good man, but as Ser Barristan remembers, he was a poor King, and his reign was turbulent due to his mistakes.

* I think it's interesting to compare Aegon to Jon. Both had a "sharp lesson" in their own ways: Jon from Donal Noye when the latter cut him down to size, Aegon from Tyrion when the latter pointed out that he was a nobody with a claim that Daenerys was unlikely to respect at face value.

[Raistlan]

Second, she was literally sold and raped

Where was Dany raped? [besides on HBO?]

[smuwilld]

Assuming Jon Connington had a Rhaegar obsession, I find it difficult to believe that he would knowingly take part in a scheme involving the false son of Rhaegar. Accordingly, (i) Aegon is really Aegon; or (ii) Jon doesn't know it isn't Aegon.

I believe the former. Aegon=Aegon.

[Spring Bass]

Assuming Jon Connington had a Rhaegar obsession, I find it difficult to believe that he would knowingly take part in a scheme involving the false son of Rhaegar. Accordingly, (i) Aegon is really Aegon; or (ii) Jon doesn't know it isn't Aegon.

I believe the former. Aegon=Aegon.

Jon doesn't know whether or not it's Aegon, since he didn't see him until he was a small child. He never personally saw or took part in the baby swap, assuming it happened.

He's not in a rush to question it, either, because he wants to believe that Aegon is the real deal. Aegon is his personal redemption, and his purpose in life.

[Lord Godric]

This is Quaithe's prophesy:

"Soon comes" could be interpreted as an ambiguous reference to time, not just direction. Quaithe is not clear on where the danger is coming from, just that it is coming, and all these "threats" will follow the arrival of the pale mare. Not every danger has to come from outside of Meereen's walls, they can easily come from within. Hizdhar comes to Dany as her king after the incident of the diseased rider and his horse. Nothing in Quaithe's words specify that the individuals in question have to "come to Meereen", most of them are outside forces, but that doesn't have to mean the mummer's dragon is as well.

A bit of a stretch, if you ask me. Quaithe's warning mentions all these people traveling toward Dany - all people we can easily connect to a certain character - but then the mummer's dragon is not Aegon but someone instead inside the city already, and Quaithe warns about everyone else coming but not Aegon? 0_o Nope, doesn't make sense. Seems like you're reading into it way too much, reading between the lines when there is nothing there to be seen.

[Plumed Quetzalcoatl]

Jon doesn't know whether or not it's Aegon, since he didn't see him until he was a small child. He never personally saw or took part in the baby swap, assuming it happened.

He's not in a rush to question it, either, because he wants to believe that Aegon is the real deal. Aegon is his personal redemption, and his purpose in life.

I don't know if I believe that. If he loved Rhaegar so much, I don't see why he wouldn't question if the child is really Aegon. I would be pissed if someone was trying to use the dead son of the person I loved for their own gain.

[Lord Godric]

I don't know if I believe that. If he loved Rhaegar so much, I don't see why he wouldn't question if the child is really Aegon. I would be pissed if someone was trying to use the dead son of the person I loved for their own gain.

I think his love has blinded him. Especially knowing that Martin has shown us quite a few times that people see what they want to see. Jon failed Rhaegar, but he will not fail his son. Aegon looks like a Targaryen, he is the right age, the body that was claimed to be Aegon's was destroyed beyond recognition. It all fits for Jon, and if there is anything that didn't make sense his desire for this child to be Rhaegar's child would blind him.

[theladyinspring]

Where was Dany raped? [besides on HBO?]

All those nights of rough and painful sex that left her limping and in tears. I also understand the change in the HBO storyline, because the 13 year old girl sold to an older man and getting brutalized every night is not a consensual situation, and they made that explicit.

[tipopellet]

I don't know if I believe that. If he loved Rhaegar so much, I don't see why he wouldn't question if the child is really Aegon.

He might have had his doubts initially but think about it, what actual means he has to prove otherwise? All the possible circumstantial evidence points to it being real Aegon - the baby looks right, age is right, Varys is definitely capable of swapping and he did stay true to Aerys till the very end. So his choice is between being smart ass and reject this little boy when it easily could turn out to be Rhaegar's son or go for it and use the only chance to redeem himself and do something for his dead friend and love. It's like presumption of innocence, much sweeter to err into not-innocent territory then find out that your mistake cost innocent life. Choosing to believe Varys would give JC a noble puprose in life and let him feel so much better about himself, wihle rejecting him would only left him with doubts and regrets.

In the end even if the baby is false he'd still be fighting real enemies of Rhaegar in his name.

[A Wolf of Winterfell]

A bit of a stretch, if you ask me. Quaithe's warning mentions all these people traveling toward Dany - all people we can easily connect to a certain character - but then the mummer's dragon is not Aegon but someone instead inside the city already, and Quaithe warns about everyone else coming but not Aegon? 0_o Nope, doesn't make sense. Seems like you're reading into it way too much, reading between the lines when there is nothing there to be seen.

I was simply providing an alternative way the text could be interpreted and agreeing with another poster above who had suggested that the mummer's dragon might not even be referring to Aegon. Agreeing in the sense that it's possible that the cloth dragon on the pole is misleading because of the dragon. That is all. I've already discussed in another thread my opinion of Aegon being the mummer's dragon. My opinion being that the mummer's dragon does refer to Aegon, however I'm not sold on the terminology implying he is a fake. I thought I would explore a different angle this time. You know, discussing and debating multiple ideas using the given source material.

You're reasoning so far is that the mummer's dragon must refer to Aegon because the pattern in Quaithes' prophesy appears to be outside forces coming to Meereen. A pattern it appears to be, so a pattern it must be. Funny thing about words, especially when they are vague and purposefully ambiguous. Is it really such a stretch to think that Martin might have included one that doesn't fit the pattern to slip people up? Just a thought. It could very well be it is what it is, not everything has to be a twist, but since nothing is certain yet the chance still remains. I like entertaining other thoughts and ideas before I simply just dismiss them.

You are of course allowed to disagree. But you could try just sticking to proving or reasoning your point, versus mostly telling me I'm wrong, and arrogantly declaring my insight compromised because you've already made up your mind, so clearly I must be seeing things that aren't there. You don't have answers, you have an opinion. Same as me. All we can do is attempt to decipher the mystery Martin has laid out for us. I'm only trying to keep an open mind and discuss the possibilities. Nothing more.

[Golden Skull]

Personally I'm undecided on whether Griff is Aegon or not.

However, there is a weakness in the argument that he can't be because of how Varys and Illyrio treated Dany and Viserys.

In fact I've always wodnered why, if V&I were Targ loyalists as implied in aGoT, did they let the two known heirs to the iron throne go off with Drogo.

The answer is because they were using them to get a dothraki army to support Aegon. If they failed it wouldn't really matter because they had the real heir in safekeeping.

Personally, I nurse the suspicion that Aegon is a Blackfyre through his mother and V&I are Blackfyre loyalists (with Illyrio as his father). This helps to explain:

Why the Golden Company is so keen to join him.

Why Varys inflamed the paranoia of the Mad King, yet wants to restore the Targs.

Why Illyrio sent the only known Targ pretenders to the Dothraki sea to die.

Why Aegon looks like a Targ.

It also helps to explain a vision that Moroqqo has in the Tyrion chapter about dark dragons and light dragons and Tyrion snarling in middle of them. The Targ dragon is red on black (a bright dragon) while the Balckfyre dragon is black on red (a dark dragon) and Tyrion has been snarling in Aegon's company and presumably will be snarling in Dany's court in the next book.

Thus leading to the final showdown between Targ and Blackfyre ending with Aegon VI shoving Blackfyre up Dany's entitled ass and then riding Drogon into the sunset to the accompaniment of "The Neverending Story" by Limahl.

Though I might need a cracked pot to put this theory in.

[DisabledTeacher]

Mummer's Dragon.

Let's put aside the two words and make it SEPARATE WORDS.

Mummer's (people who can 'play' people) and Dragon.

Mummer's refer to Varys and the others. This is their Dragon, and the one Dany needs to be wary of. Dany's whole prophesy has to do with helping Jon (The Prince that was Promised - which BTW thank you to some of these threads for saving the book for me. If it wasn't for people pointing out the blaring obvious I missed during my reading I would of kept not liking the book. The fact that I didn't even think of Jon being 'woken' by Mel...wow I am a thinkheaded idiot. Thank you GRRM!).

The battle is coming and Ice and Fire must come forth to end the Others once and for all. The endless summer will finally come with the power of the Targareons who are fire themselves the power of the First Men who initially battled the Others with the Greenseers and put up the Wall, Winterfell, and Storm's End.

BTW I still feel Storm's End has some sort of role in the whole 'Others'. Brandon built three massive things in Westeros - Storm's End, Winterfell, and the Wall. I wonder what the heck is @ Storm's End? Or Maybe, Storm's End will end up saving some of the people (or lots of people?) during the whole Long Night trying to wipe everyone out and that will be stopped by the whole host of 'new heroes'.

So, Dany needs to choose which Dragon to help. Either Jon or Aegon. If she chooses the wrong one, the one controlled by Mummer's, the whole world will fall.

[Dragonfish]

Mummer's Dragon.

Let's put aside the two words and make it SEPARATE WORDS.

Mummer's (people who can 'play' people) and Dragon.

Sometimes the meaning of a combination of words is greater than the sum of its parts.

In this case, a "mummer's dragon" is not merely a dragon belonging to a mummer, but a cloth dragon used by mummers to play the role of a dragon in their shows. In other words, mummer's dragons play roles every bit as much as mummers do. So I personally think the term is meant to indicate that Aegon is playing the role of a "dragon", while not actually being a "dragon." The fact that Varys is a mummer just gives it a nice double meaning, IMO.

[Lord Godric]

I think it is worth mentioning that what we see in the House of the Undying isn't immeadiately described as a "mummer's dragon." Dany later uses that phrase when she talks to Ser Jorah. The actual description of what Dany sees is "a cloth dragon swayed on polls amidst a cheering crowd." It is pretty clear that Dany sees a fake dragon that mummers use.