[ ADwD Spoilers ] Jon Connington and Young Griff

[kg1982]

That begins to make good sense now. There were two babies at the Tower of Joy, Prince Aegon the heir apparent, and the newborn Jon. Exactly!

It makes much more sense now why Ned trekked to Starfall. But he can’t have gone alone, because he would have been carrying two infant half‐brothers, one a newborn and the other an infant. He stashed one with Ashara to take across the Narrow Sea and the other he brought home. I can see Ned having some loyalty to his nephew’s half‐brother, after all, and he knew that he could trust Ashara. Plus if Ashara recently lost a baby, she could have been wetnurse to Prince Aegon.

Why exactly would Ned go out of his way to hide Aegon? Of course, he doesn't want babies dying, but he also doesn't want potential heirs popping up in the Free Cities threatening his friend Robert. Probably the best way for him to deal with the situation would be to announce that he did have Aegon and that he would be fostered at Winterfell like Theon to keep the loyalists in line. This would keep Aegon from being killed and away from the throne.

Frankly, I prefer the idea that Ned only found one baby, his nephew, at the Tower of Joy. He dishonored himself and lied to his friend and his wife out of love for his sister. I think that the Tower of Joy scenario is beautiful not because of any doomed romance, but because of the family bonds and love there. I think that it is diminished if Ned is going around hiding other babies at the same time.

It seems to me that Young Griff is a fake. I don't think that Varys and Illyrio care about whether or not Aegon is real; he is just a pawn in their scheme. As Varys pointed out to Tyrion, it just matters what other people believe is real.

[Khandurian]

Aegon is alive and kicking boys, and he's been walking amongst us since the very beginning!

[WeirwoodWorshiper]

I don't think young Griff is Aegon. Varys at the end of ADWD says to Kevin Lannister that "Aegon" regards the rule of the Seven Kingdoms as his "duty" where as Tommin see's it as "birthrite". Surely if he was Aegon he would see it as his birthrite and his duty. Yg is clearly the mummers dragon, Varys being the mummer. What strikes me is Dany is warned not to trust him. If YG was the third head of the dragon I wouldn't expect Dany to be warned against him. I think that YG is Varys attempt at playing the Game of Thrones. Griff met him as a child after spending time with the Golden Company as a sellsword. I imagine he jumped at the opertunity of raising Rhaegar's son once asked, rather then fight for a sellsword company.

[Sasha Steelsong]

My point was that Elia had more leverage in her negotiations with Varys. KL being besieged was not the end of the world. It's going to take a while for Ned to build siege equipment. They still had access to the docks. They still had naval supremacy. If Varys wants to switch Aegon, Elia says, "And let my daughter die? No way. Forget the swap. Take them both someplace safe. If you don't agree to that, I'll wait for Paxter to save us all." This assumes that Elia thinks she can get away from Aerys, but if KL is besieged and Paxter shows up it's likely to be every man for himself and Aerys be damned. If Elia agrees to a swap, she's giving up on saving her daughter before she needs to.

And my point is that she could have felt her son was threatened by his grandfather as well as by the encroaching army. If Elia agrees to a swap she is getting at least one of her children away from two forces that would threaten them. Better to save one than none which with her husband dead, Aerys insanity growning by the day, and an army encroaching on the city would be a viable POV for her to have. Any serious hope they had of beating the rebellion died with Rhaegar on the Trident and it would be easy to see Elia trying to save what she could even if it wasn't saving everyone she wanted to.

[voodooqueen126]

So where do we have the discussion about Jon Connington murdering Robert's children?

[Scaeva]

I think Young Griff is an imposter, and is the son of Illyrio Mopatis and his Lysene bedwarmer (later, wife) Serra. That would explain at least why a Pentoshi merchant is so vested in the dynastic struggles of Westeros. He wants his son to be a king. It would also explain why Illyrio seemed so heartbroken when he was unable to see Young Griff in ADwD, and why he had child's clothing laying around for Tyrion. Serra was described as having golden hair streaked with silver and blue eyes, which would be consistent at least with Young Griff's appearance. IIRC it is stated that having his hair dyed blue made his violet eyes appear blue.

I can't recall now whether any other remark is made about Young Griff having violet eyes, but if not, perhaps his eyes are in fact blue and not violet at all. Though if he does have violet eyes it wouldn't necessarily rule out Serra as being his mother. Those streaks of silver in her hair may be an indication of partial Valyrian ancesty, and if so, she may carry a recessive gene for purple eyes even if her own were blue.

I don't think however that Jon Connington thinks anything other than that Young Griff actually is Aegon. If Young Griff is Illyrio's son, only Illyrio and Varys are in on that fact and Young Griff is also in the dark about who he actually is.

Or at least that is my favorite theory at the moment. That may be all be proven wrong in a later book. Either way I'm looking forward to seeing how Martin has the whole thing play out, though I'm torn between whether I think it would be more fun to have Aegon's legitimacy proven or disproven, or for it to remain a mystery.

[Ser Lepus]

But, wouldn´t Jon Connington notice that Young Griff looks nothing like Rhaegar or Elia, but rather like Illyrio? (I´m not speaking just of hair and eye colour, I´m speaking of his actual face). If Young Griff just didn´t look like his supposed parents, that would be suspicious enough, but, if he also happens to look like Illyrio, that should raise a really big red flag...

[Ran]

Illyrio was, apparently, quite lean and beautiful when he was younger. His beloved Serra was also apparently quite beautiful. I don't really think a handsome youth like Young Griff is going to look so massively different from the beautiful Rhaegar that anyone would think, "Hey, he doesn't look at all right".

Illyrio at present looks massively different from what he did when he was younger.

[the Scorpion Knight]

But, wouldn´t Jon Connington notice that Young Griff looks nothing like Rhaegar or Elia, but rather like Illyrio? (I´m not speaking just of hair and eye colout, I´m speaking of his actual face). If Young Griff just didn´t look like his supposed parents, that would be suspicious enough, but, if he also happens to look like Illyrio, that should raise a really big red flag...

the number one reason I believe Aegon is real especially in this age it SHOWS his parenterage

[Scaeva]

But, wouldn´t Jon Connington notice that Young Griff looks nothing like Rhaegar or Elia, but rather like Illyrio? (I´m not speaking just of hair and eye colout, I´m speaking of his actual face). If Young Griff just didn´t look like his supposed parents, that would be suspicious enough, but, if he also happens to look like Illyrio, that should raise a really big red flag...

People rarely look like clones of their parents, so even if Young Griff is Illyrio's son it is not necessarily a certain thing that other people would make note of a resemblance between the two. This is particularly true considering that Illyrio was supposedly quite fit and handsome in his youth, but is obese by the time of ADwD. Even if Young Griff looks a lot like young Illyrio, it is doubtful anyone would notice, as old Illyrio looks nothing like his former self. But considering Young Griff's description it may be that he looks a lot more like Serra, whose description almost sounds like a Targaryen.

If Serra looked like a Targaryen and Young Griff is her son, he may look like a Targaryen as well, which combined with his good looks is enough to fool Connington into thinking he's Rhaegar's son. That, and Connington is psychologically predisposed to falling for a fake Aegon because he so desperately wants to make amends for what he considers the great failure of his life.

[Ser Lepus]

Illyrio was, apparently, quite lean and beautiful when he was younger. His beloved Serra was also apparently quite beautiful. I don't really think a handsome youth like Young Griff is going to look so massively different from the beautiful Rhaegar that anyone would think, "Hey, he doesn't look at all right".

Illyrio at present looks massively different from what he did when he was younger.

People aren´t just beautiful or ugly; a face is made of features (shape of the nose, ears, eyes, eyebrows, lips, jaw, ...etc), and those are passed from parents to their children. Lucy Liu and Halle Berry are both beautiful women, but their faces are nothing alike...if Rhaegar has the face of Harrison Ford, and Young Griff the face of Orlando Bloom, both could be considered handsome men, but they wouldn´t look like father and son...

If Young Griff nose, ears, eyes,...etc. are all different from both Rhaegar´s and Elia´s, but he has inherited Illyrio ears and nose, Connington should notice there is something fishy there.

[Lord Varys]

The problem with Illyrio being Aegon's father would be that it was a risky gamble to use a guy with non-valyrian looks to father a Targaryen pretender. The Targaryen look is only preserved through incest, if a Targaryen marries somebody else, the chances are 50:50 that the child has any Targaryen traits. Princess Rhaenys looked Dornish, it is said, but Aegon was a prototypical Targaryen babe.

Considering this, I would not be that surprised if Illyrio's true hair color would be silver-gold. He apparently makes his beard appear to be yellow, but this could be as much a disguise as Aegon's blue hair.

My guess is, that Illyrio, Serra, and Varys all three come from different branches of the dragon tree. Illyrio says he doesn't understand why Varys teamed up with him of all people, but I guess he lied about that. He may not have understood back then, but in the present he must know. Varys may have found out something about the Mopatis family Illyrio himself did not know. Maybe Illyrio was an orphan, somewhat ignorant to who his parents were. Daemon Blackfyre sired seven sons, and daughters as well. Those daughters may have been married into families in the Free Cities, one of which may have been a certain guy named Mopatis. It is not necessary to place Varys/Illyrio/Serra into the Maelys's generation, since I'm not that convinced that many of Daemon's sons lived to father children of their own. Daemon II most likely had no inclination to do so ;-).

And it's also not that certain, that Varys or Illyrio must necessarily be Blackfyre descendants. There are plenty of unknown Targaryens left, into which some of them would fit. It would be much more interesting if this coalition would not so much be about the Blackfyre, but using their descendants the same way they used the Targaryen siblings.

As for Illyrio's motivation: I'm not that sure that Illyrio is that happy about Aegon becoming King of Westeros. If he is indeed his son, this has not been his idea. This has to be Varys's or Serra's plan. If I believe Illyrio in one thing, then that he does not care about this stupid Westeros and its castles all that much. He is content to be a magister (and the de facto ruler) of Pentos, living in his modest manse. If he had a son with Serra, and if it were up to him, he would live out his life with this boy, spoiling him. After all, this would have been the one thing his true love had given him.

And considering Connington, if Young Griff is indeed considerably younger than Aegon VI has to be were he still alive, he has to know the truth about him. Connington knew the babe Aegon before he was supposedly slain. And he is not as stupid to believe a three/four year old child is a five/six year old, when a fat guy and the slimy eunuch show up and claim this is Rhaegar Targaryen's son. Either Tyrion is mistaken about Aegon's age, or Connington is really completely stupid. Also, Connington was in love with Rhaegar. If Aegon looked nothing like his alleged father but for somewhat similar hair, if he had not his nose, his eyes, his cheeks, his ears etc., he would be somewhat suspicious as well. Especially since he does not trust Varys or Illyrio...

[Ran]

If Young Griff nose, ears, eyes,...etc. are all different from both Rhaegar´s and Elia´s, but he has inherited Illyrio ears and nose, Connington should notice there is something fishy there.

I'm reminded of the fact that square-jawed, solid Maekar looked very little like tall, long-limbed Baelor Breakspear, but they were both brothers by the same parents. You can have a lot of variation, even in a family. Maybe he doesn't have Rhaegar's nose -- maybe he has Elia's grandfather's, or Jaehaerys's, or what have you. Who's to say? Children aren't clones.

Illyrio's fair and pale. Serra was fair and pale and probably had quite a lot of Valyrian lineage, given what we know of Lys and Lyseni (or, if she were a Blackfyre descendant.) It seems sufficient, so long as the child's eyes were in the right range. As to Aegon appearing very Valyrian... he was an infant, and as others have noted, plenty of little kids start out blond and then see their hair darken (sometimes quite considerably) as they age, so even darkening of the hair would not really be an issue.

[Lord Varys]

Not that sure about the looks. Even if Aegon VI looked as babe not that prototypical a Targaryen, any man pretending to be Aegon Targaryen would have to look very Targaryen, to convince anyone. If Aegon had dark hair now, and the Golden Company would explain that with his hair darkening during the years, that explanation would not suffice. He would be discarded as a very bad imposter, even if he was the real deal. But if in turn, Aegon would now look very much like Aegon I or Daemon Blackfyre (and I guess he does), that fact will make him much more convincing. Even if the real Aegon had looked more like a Martell than a Targaryen (which he did not).

And Connington knew Aerys, Rhaella, Rhaegar, and Elia (and possibly her mother as well, since she was Rhaella's lady-in-waiting) well enough to recognize if there was anything truly amiss. Let alone the years 'Aegon Mopatis' might lack. All I'm saying is that there Jon has to have some (faked) proof of Aegon's identity, or else he would never have joined the conspiracy. Varys and Illyrio also would have to convince him that they are, in fact, Targaryen loyalists, or else this whole plan would have appeared to Connington as weird as it appeared to Tyrion.

[Ran]

By "very dark" I don't mean black. But if he's got a blond sort of hair, well, we know the Targaryens varied in their hair color, from silvery-white to quite golden.

I think you're forgetting the bitterness that Connington felt, and his own desires to return. He may well have accepted a rather flimsy excuse as to the boy's provenance because he wants to believe that this is his "silver prince's" son and that he'll restore him to his throne as an act of devotion to his lost friend.

People see what they want to see, a lot of times, and I think it's a point that GRRM's well aware of and has consciously made use of in the course of the narrative (hence everyone sees Arya as a boy -- she's got short hair and walking in pants, must be a boy, right?) Not much different with people kind of looking at this good-looking boy who they believe is Rhaegar's son and saying, "Sure".

Does Connington even reference ever having any doubts or needing any proof from Varys? Not that he didn't do so, but if we aren't told, then we literally don't know what, if anything, was needed to convince him.

[Lord Varys]

He remembers going along with the scheme 'for the boy's sake'. Meaning to fake his death and all of that. I doubt Connington had the stomach for all this caution, or for dishonor himself, his house, and his ancestors by faking his death and abandoning his comrades at the Golden Company (including his lover, Blackheart Toyne - the signs for him being his lover are there; Jon remembers his actual ugly face fondly, and the one piece about Toyne talking to him about what Tywin had done at Stoney Sept is set, without context, in a night) for this longterm plan. He might not live to see Aegon growing up, after all. I do see him doing this for Rhaegar's son, if he honestly believes he is what he supposed to be, but silver-gold haired boy delivered to him by Illyrio and Varys alone would not do this trick.

He is only sick of patience in the end because he is dying. Had he not contracted Greyscale, the Golden Company would have traveled to Slaver's Boy and picked up Daenerys. That is not a man who is bitter or desperate enough to be fooled like that. But I might be mistaken here. Connington is a lousy actor, Tyrion is right on that, but he is not stupid or easily deceived. At least, not anymore.

Hair-color variations would be in order, I think. But considering them, Aegon could very well have become as dark as Elia in later years, so that would technically have been a real option. But it would very well have spoiled this plan, or made it at least much harder to pull off. Connington might believe such a boy being Aegon - since he saw him darkening -, but the people of Westeros might not fall for that trick. You expect a Targaryen to have silver-gold hair and purple eyes.

[Ran]

The other thing to bear in mind is our own history of false pretenders. There were plenty of them in real life, many of whom weren't at all related to the people they claimed to be, some of whom apparently looked only roughly right -- but some people accepted them, for various reasons. A guy comes in with the Golden Company at his back and one of Rhaegar's best friends at his side saying he's Rhaegar's son, and you're fed up with everyone ruling you at present and you wish it was back as it was before Aerys went mad... well, maybe you think he looks a lot like a Targaryen, after all.

There were two Wars of the Roses-era pretenders, Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck, that George would certainly be aware of. I believe back when ADwD was released, several people made the connection.

[irishtemper]

Ok, so just because it happened in real life in England means that Aegon is fake.

Ok

[the Scorpion Knight]

There were two Wars of the Roses-era pretenders, Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck, that George would certainly be aware of. I believe back when ADwD was released, several people made the connection.

you know henry tudor also had A VERY dubious claim to the britisch throne.

[Lord Varys]

Ran is only aiming at the fact here, that it might not make that much a difference for some of Aegon's followers whether he is who is supposed to be or not.

And he might be right there. The Golden Company, for example, would have followed any hopeful pretender to Westeros, apparently. As a company, they do not mind if he is Targaryen, Blackfyre, or Baratheon, in my opinion.

And in Westeros many of the Riverlords who are more than pissed off by the way they were treated by the Lannisters and Freys will jump on any chance to declare for another pretender whose claim seem to be much better than Robb's or Tommen's.

Lastly, there some of the lords being pissed by the Tyrells might also consider Aegon a better horse than Tommen.

My problem with the whole Blackfyre thing is that Varys had any opportunity to save the real Aegon. So why not do that and instead steal poor Illyrio's son for the plan? The man obviously likes the lad, but if he is indeed his father, he would never be able to tell him the truth. His affection for the boy can be also explained with Illyrio growing fond of during the years he lived with him at Pentos. And he may very well be merely the son he hoped to have with Serra, but never had. As of yet, we can't be sure.

And I admit that if would make sense, if Varys/Illyrio/Serra were somewhat connected to House Blackfyre.