Should Littlefinger watch his step with Sansa?

[The Greatmatt]

Of course LF should watch his step with Sansa. He'll be his own undoing.

A definite possibility. Littlefinger has a definite resemblance to the classic Bond villain who falls specifically because he starts having too much fun. If Sansa comes to grips with the truth, she'll be poised to hurt him, and she's possibly his long blind spot.

One of the things that's so interesting though about Littlefinger is that it's really not clear what his end game is with Sansa. It's entirely possible that he's essentially completely on her side now in the way that you'd expect someone to be with their own love or daughter. If that's how he plays it, it's hard to imagine Sansa really coming to think of him as the enemy.

I'll also note that quite literally, if Ned had done exactly what Littlefinger advises him to do when Robert is on his death bed, it's possible that the whole Stark family is doing just dandy, and he didn't had far more connection to killing Joffrey than the Red Wedding. Not saying he's a good guy, he took great pleasure in the Stark downfall, but Littlefinger's direct connection to hurting Sansa's family is remarkably faint.

[_Oberyn_]

Is it possible these two things have already come to pass, in a sense? She wore the hairnet with the poison at Joff's wedding, which could be the purple serpents. And at the Vale when she built Winterfell out of snow and ripped the head off Robert's doll she put it on a stick and LF said it wasn't the first time a giant's head had been mounted in front of Winterfell.

Yes that definitely one interpretation and very possibly the right one. But. The other posibility is that the giant is the "Titan of Bravos" which is Littlefingers house emblem. Personaly i think the doll is quite insignificant to be a vision.

[littlebird_]

Cersei did pretty good until Stannis decided to send out ravens to every man in the land. A bit more discretion would have been advisable but she didn't do that bad until the AFFC lobotomy.

My assumption was that it was an open secret at KL even before everything, something people like LF and Varys suspected but no one ever cared enough to really find out.

Given that ruining your life or at least getting into a really big trouble due to love is such a common theme in the story - most definitely. But even though Littlefinger's getting obsessed with Sansa, he's too smart to take it for granted she''ll remain in his control forever just because he got her out of KL and saved her when Lisa tried to kill her - it wouldn't surprise me if he's been lying about a lot of things he has told her so far in order to manipulate her.

He is lying to her or at least keeping things from her but I also think he believes that Sansa is in his control. From his perspective what could Sansa possibly do? More so, why would she do anything? He saved her, without him she will be arrested by the Lannisters and now he is giving her Winterfell (which I do think is a lie) but to him there is no reason for her to be suspicious of him or resentful of him. Interestingly, Sansa does think about how he is lying to her and how he was a different man at KL, she just doesn't have any tangible evidence against him to build on these feelings. The problem here is how does she get a tangible evidence, LF will not slip up and there is no one other than Sansa to whom he tells his secrets.

A definite possibility. Littlefinger has a definite resemblance to the classic Bond villain who falls specifically because he starts having too much fun. If Sansa comes to grips with the truth, she'll be poised to hurt him, and she's possibly his long blind spot.

lol this is actually a perfect description, he is becoming way too sure of himself and his intellect and the end at AFFC with Sansa really read like a Bond villain telling the audience his evil masterplan.

[Raksha the Demon]

Of course LF should watch his step with Sansa. He'll be his own undoing. I submit for your consideration:

1) He's been holding a torch for Catelyn forever and Sansa is his last chance to be with Catelyn by proxy.

2) He's a patient guy. He's teaching Sansa to play his nasty little game. So far, though, she hasn't actually demonstrated (or had an opportunity to demonstrate) that she's learned anything. So Sansa's a sleeper threat in this regard.

3) He's been portrayed as surprisingly chaste. Unless I'm mistaken, we don't see him with any other women who mean anything to him. (Of course, this could also work against Sansa, since it appears he can keep himself in check pretty well.)

4) As far as we know, LF has no idea that Sansa could probably enlist the Hound to her cause, if their paths were to cross again. And, maybe, to a lesser extent, Tyrion as well.

5) He's been playing her like a fiddle so far. Maybe he's confident he can continue to do so, or can win her compliance by giving her Winterfell. Given the points already made about Sansa eventually learning of his treachery where her father's concerned, I doubt a ruined castle will be suitable recompense to her.

I absolutely do not see Sansa offing LF through poison or some kind of physical contest. I think LF will be blinded by his desire for her and will underestimate how much and how well she's learned from him. She will somehow get him into a situation from which he cannot escape. I'm not sure he'll die in the end, though. It would be awesome if Sansa let him live but somehow neutralized him so he'd no longer pose a threat. That would be worse than dying for him.

Of course Littlefinger has been playing Sansa like a fiddle so far - he's a 35-year-old professional con man/schemer, and she's a hunted 13-year-old girl with no family and very few friends. But he hasn't been able to stop Sansa from forming a bond of affection with Sweetrobin, and to stop Sansa from befriending Myranda Royce; despite warning her that she shouldn't become chummy with Myranda.

At the end of AFFC, Littlefinger holds most of the cards. He has made Sansa an unwilling accomplice in the deaths of three people (though she did not have much choice in keeping quiet about Dontos' death, and lying about Lysa's death - how would it have looked if she had accused Littlefinger? It would have been spun that they conspired to kill Lysa to gain control over SweetRobin; or Littlefinger would have said that Marillion and Sansa did it together); and has reminded her of that more than once to solidify his own control. But Littlefinger is being rather sloppy in his relationship with Sansa - he has kissed her outside, where that unfatherly kiss could have been seen by more than just the jealous Lysa - and he is initiating Sansa into many of his secrets and plans and strategies. I don't think Sansa is stupid; and I think she will eventually turn the tables on Littlefinger when he goes too far. Littlefinger is teaching Sansa his secrets and goals as if she were his own child, but grooming her for sex as if she were Catelyn - it's creepy and pervy and, for Littlefinger, quite risky. I'm not sure that Littlefinger is differentiating between Sansa the actual young girl and his own fantasy amalgamation of Sansa his fantasy daughter/the young Catelyn whom he loved and lost.

I think Sansa has probably got a lot of buried anger within her. For over two years now, she's had to keep herself calm, self-controlled, courteous towards strangers and enemies; all while her family and home were being destroyed. If/when Sansa finds out that Littlefinger initiated much of that destruction, I think she will be furious with him. Whether she can bring him down alone, or if she will need the help of others, remains to be seen. Sansa has also been a magnet for the desire of men, often against her will with little or no protection - Joffrey desired her in a cruel and sadistic way, she put up with Dontos' slobbery kisses (though to be fair to the poor guy, I'm not sure he desired her as a real woman, or more like a lost chivalric ideal from the songs), naked Tyrion looking at her with lust in her eyes and becoming angry when she dared question that she would ever have consummate their marriage, the mob in King's Landing trying to maul and/or rape her, Marillion doing his best to seduce and rape her, and Littlefinger giving her unwanted kisses. It's interesting, given Sansa's rising power over men and her justifiable fear of them, that she is befriending two women in AFFC, Mya and Myranda.

[Alexia]

My assumption was that it was an open secret at KL even before everything, something people like LF and Varys suspected but no one ever cared enough to really find out.

Varys knew because of his spy network, and LF suspected, but when Stannis became suspicious he got Jon Arryn to open an investigation with him. I'm not so sure that it was an open secret, though really I could be wrong. :lol:

What I want to know is why people believe he is lying about getting Winterfell for her? LF loves power, and right now he holds both the heir to Winterfell and the heir to the Vale, and both of them have a potential claim for Riverrun. I think he definitely envisions a future of installing Sansa as the Lady of Winterfell and ruling more than half the kingdom through her while carrying on a torrid affair with her in secret, or killing her husband after she has a few children and marrying her himself. I think that *that* is his end game. He'll be her "Hand". But I do think he sincerely means to use her to take control of the North or to tighten his control on the Riverlands.

[littlebird_]

Varys knew because of his spy network, and LF suspected, but when Stannis became suspicious he got Jon Arryn to open an investigation with him. I'm not so sure that it was an open secret, though really I could be wrong. :lol:

What I want to know is why people believe he is lying about getting Winterfell for her? LF loves power, and right now he holds both the heir to Winterfell and the heir to the Vale, and both of them have a potential claim for Riverrun. I think he definitely envisions a future of installing Sansa as the Lady of Winterfell and ruling more than half the kingdom through her while carrying on a torrid affair with her in secret, or killing her husband after she has a few children and marrying her himself. I think that *that* is his end game. He'll be her "Hand". But I do think he sincerely means to use her to take control of the North or to tighten his control on the Riverlands.

It's possible that I might be wrong also :lol: I just assumed it was something people were trying to avoid talking about just because it would create way too many problems :lol:

About Winterfell, the way I read that scene Littlefinger needs Sansa to seduce Harry and marry him to justify his continuing presence and power at the Vale. But in order for her to agree to these things (otherwise why should Sansa do this) he promises her Winterfell. She can not get Winterfell until she gets Harry and the Vale for him and in return he'll get her Winterfell. Littlefinger must know that even if she becomes Lady of the Vale he can have control over Sansa because she is alone there and they do still share the secret of Lysa's death and probably sweetrobin's future death but once she's in the North and around people whom her father trusted and were loyal bannerman why would Sansa continue to obey his wishes or even take his counsel? She has an independent power base there that he can never control. It just seems like too dangerous or maybe he really thinks that Sansa is that much under his control which is really a big miscalculation because even right now she's not that much under his control.

Littlefinger is teaching Sansa his secrets and goals as if she were his own child, but grooming her for sex as if she were Catelyn - it's creepy and pervy and, for Littlefinger, quite risky. I'm not sure that Littlefinger is differentiating between Sansa the actual young girl and his own fantasy amalgamation of Sansa his fantasy daughter/the young Catelyn whom he loved and lost.

THIS. As clever as he is I do think he is having serious delusions with respect to Sansa and what she represents, he treats her as a daughter and also as a woman he is courting. It is because he is been so good at the game so far that I might be overlooking it but he might start making mistakes and give more information to Sansa himself. He seems to have this need to get Sansa's admiration, to prove to her that he is the best player there is, one of these days his examples might actually include something more than he intended to give away. I am not sure how likely this is but he is not really all that consistent with the way he behaves around her.

I think Sansa has probably got a lot of buried anger within her. For over two years now, she's had to keep herself calm, self-controlled, courteous towards strangers and enemies; all while her family and home were being destroyed.

I think the greatest symbolism to how much pent up anger the girl has in her was what she did to Robert's doll when he threatened Winterfell :D

[eyeheartsansa]

I'm not sure that Littlefinger is differentiating between Sansa the actual young girl and his own fantasy amalgamation of Sansa his fantasy daughter/the young Catelyn whom he loved and lost.

That is an astute observation. LF himself, surprisingly enough, seems confused on this point,doesn't he?

[Tagganaro]

Sansa has started to pick up on some of the lessons Littlefinger has been teaching her. She was able to smartly recognize right away that LF had paid off the Lord Declarant (I think it was Corbray) to pull his sword on him in order to turn the other Lords around and help Petyr. I didn't pick up on that until Sansa brought it up.

Her next lesson will probably be a Dany-Doreah-esque sexuality lesson, and we all know Petyr wants to be the one teaching her haha. What a pervert.

But otherwise, I can't imagine Sansa turning on Littlefinger until he tries to hurt her or something. She really has no reason to suspect him in Ned's death (I think she wouldn't know about what went on right?). I guess I could see LF trying to force himself on Sansa again (his creepy line about I just made you a queen, I deserve more than a kiss) and maybe her retaliating.

[Cricket]

One of the things that's so interesting though about Littlefinger is that it's really not clear what his end game is with Sansa. It's entirely possible that he's essentially completely on her side now in the way that you'd expect someone to be with their own love or daughter. If that's how he plays it, it's hard to imagine Sansa really coming to think of him as the enemy.

If what Littlefinger said to Sansa is actually true, then not everything he does is purely to gain tactical advantage. Sometimes he does things just to stay unpredictable, and I expect, sometimes simply for his own amusement. Littlefinger is probably the only person who believes the game of thrones is an actual game to be played for personal entertainment as much as power. And what fun would the game be if there wasn't some risk? I think he sees Sansa as a trophy and a pawn, but he's also aware that he's planting the seeds of a possible adversary--one that knows all his secrets and has the tools to undo him. But to him, that's all part of the game.

I think Sansa has probably got a lot of buried anger within her. For over two years now, she's had to keep herself calm, self-controlled, courteous towards strangers and enemies; all while her family and home were being destroyed. If/when Sansa finds out that Littlefinger initiated much of that destruction, I think she will be furious with him. Whether she can bring him down alone, or if she will need the help of others, remains to be seen.

Actually, it seems to me like Sansa doesn't seem to have much anger at all. If she were simply burying it, then it would be reflected in her POV chapters since that's where we see all the character's innermost thoughts. But Sansa barely has a malevolent thought about anyone, even those who have treated her horribly. She's had flashes of anger, but retribution and vengeance have never crossed her mind in the way it has for characters such as Arya, Tryion or even Dany. I think Littlefinger will really have to push Sansa into a corner in order for her to act out. Either that or expose his neck so much that Sansa's believes there will never be a better opportunity to be free from him.

[Yellow Dog]

Very much agreed. And since it's August 12th today, can I just say...

I'd love to see Wyman Manderly get his hands on LF, after learning about his betrayal of Ned and his mistreatment of Sansa.

Potential scenario:

Dinnertime at the Bloody Gate. Sansa walks in: "Ooh! Yummy! It's pork pie night" (grabs giant slice). Manderly: "NO, no my dear, you, uh, don't want to touch that. Have a nice lemon cake instead." Sansa: "K! Where's LF? Haven't seen him around today." Manderly: "We should really debrief..."

Yes yes yes. Especially since

as Lord of White Harbor (so close to the Fingers), Manderly knows just how lowly and poverty-stricken LF's origins are, and LF no doubt despises Manderly.

I'd like to see some LF humiliation first, though. Is there some way to expose LF's lie about being Catelyn's first?

[Alexia]

Actually, it seems to me like Sansa doesn't seem to have much anger at all. If she were simply burying it, then it would be reflected in her POV chapters since that's where we see all the character's innermost thoughts. But Sansa barely has a malevolent thought about anyone, even those who have treated her horribly.

Her problem is that she didn't feel safe. She was angry at the end of ASOS, angry with LF for kissing her, with Robert for damaging her castle, with her aunt Lysa for calling her a beggar, and with her whole situation. IMO, she was angry because she thought it was finally safe to be. When Lysa tried to kill her, and when LF threw Lysa out the Moon Door before her eyes...that totally changed her perspective.

She's definitely had some malevolent thoughts. She expressed a hope that the Others would get Janos, that his son would fall in the tourney and disgrace himself, that the Sept of Baelor would burn, she tries to manipulate Joffrey into getting himself killed, et al. But she has iron self control when it comes to expressing her anger.

[FacelessGirl]

Her problem is that she didn't feel safe. She was angry at the end of ASOS, angry with LF for kissing her, with Robert for damaging her castle, with her aunt Lysa for calling her a beggar, and with her whole situation. IMO, she was angry because she thought it was finally safe to be. When Lysa tried to kill her, and when LF threw Lysa out the Moon Door before her eyes...that totally changed her perspective.

She's definitely had some malevolent thoughts. She expressed a hope that the Others would get Janos, that his son would fall in the tourney and disgrace himself, that the Sept of Baelor would burn, she tries to manipulate Joffrey into getting himself killed, et al. But she has iron self control when it comes to expressing her anger.

I'm telling you it'll be a bloodbath when Sansa finally snaps. Just you all wait...

[littlebird_]

Her problem is that she didn't feel safe. She was angry at the end of ASOS, angry with LF for kissing her, with Robert for damaging her castle, with her aunt Lysa for calling her a beggar, and with her whole situation. IMO, she was angry because she thought it was finally safe to be. When Lysa tried to kill her, and when LF threw Lysa out the Moon Door before her eyes...that totally changed her perspective.

She's definitely had some malevolent thoughts. She expressed a hope that the Others would get Janos, that his son would fall in the tourney and disgrace himself, that the Sept of Baelor would burn, she tries to manipulate Joffrey into getting himself killed, et al. But she has iron self control when it comes to expressing her anger.

This is a very good observation, she does express anger when she feels safer but she is mostly in situations where expressing any emotion might endager her life so she represses all that anger. After Lysa's death I think she realizes that she lost what she thought was an ally, Lysa was her aunt and she thought she could be freer under her care then she realized that Lysa was crazy and she was indirectly implicated in her murder so she retreated back again into holding back her emotions. How much she trusts someone can actually be discerned with how free she is with her negative emotions, if she doesn't express any disappointment, anger, sadness to said person then she doesn't think she's safe with them.

[Cricket]

Her problem is that she didn't feel safe. She was angry at the end of ASOS, angry with LF for kissing her, with Robert for damaging her castle, with her aunt Lysa for calling her a beggar, and with her whole situation. IMO, she was angry because she thought it was finally safe to be. When Lysa tried to kill her, and when LF threw Lysa out the Moon Door before her eyes...that totally changed her perspective.

She's definitely had some malevolent thoughts. She expressed a hope that the Others would get Janos, that his son would fall in the tourney and disgrace himself, that the Sept of Baelor would burn, she tries to manipulate Joffrey into getting himself killed, et al. But she has iron self control when it comes to expressing her anger.

Well, what I was getting at isn't that she never thinks malevolent thoughts (that was badly worded), it's just the thoughts she does have seem to be very fleeting and not too intense. Sure, if someone does something horrible to me I might hope they fall down and break their neck, but it's an entirely different thing to nurse hatred and actively plot that person's death (I don't recall her manipulating Joffery, but I doubt she intentionally created a scenario where he'd die, even though she might have seen an opportunity where could be killed and went with it). Sansa would need to be unflinchingly cutthroat to go against Littlefinger. Maybe she wouldn't literally want for him to die, but she'd need to be iron-willed in her opposition to him.

And yes, the reason for her lack of aggression is probably largely due to her being in a setting where she's near helpless, but I think her nature doesn't lean towards vengeance. It's kind of reflected in the personality of her direwolf, the most trusting and docile of the bunch. Of course, Lady is dead. So there might be some symbolism there.

[The Greatmatt]

That is an astute observation. LF himself, surprisingly enough, seems confused on this point,doesn't he?

Yeah, literally, his treatment of Sansa may be an indication that he's actually not quite sane, and this has a lot to do with why it's really unclear what direction he's heading. If he wants to pretend Sansa is his daughter, he'll go one direction, if he wants Sansa to be his Cat another, and of course there's the possibility he just wants to screw her over.

[ajmstilt]

This is a very good observation, she does express anger when she feels safer but she is mostly in situations where expressing any emotion might endager her life so she represses all that anger. After Lysa's death I think she realizes that she lost what she thought was an ally, Lysa was her aunt and she thought she could be freer under her care then she realized that Lysa was crazy and she was indirectly implicated in her murder so she retreated back again into holding back her emotions. How much she trusts someone can actually be discerned with how free she is with her negative emotions, if she doesn't express any disappointment, anger, sadness to said person then she doesn't think she's safe with them.

Wow that's a brilliant insight...

[Jamie Lannister]

Great replies so far. I certainly think that with enough prodding (and a little informing; Sansa's not likely to forget or forgive LF if the truth of how he sold Ned to the gallows comes to light), she could really make a move here.

A Sandor-ized theory (for the people who think they're tied together somehow) is that Sandor comes to the Vale somehow (he's not that far, on the Quiet Isle!) and reveals to Sansa LF's betrayal of her father. I think this would be the strongest catalyst. Plus, if this is the case, she's got a man there who will probably do whatever she wants (someone noted above this would be a safe route for her) and keep her own hands clean. Personally, I'd love to see her get her hands a little dirty, but :shrugs:

I'll be honest. I don't think Westeros could handle this much sheer awesome.

[Alexia]

How much she trusts someone can actually be discerned with how free she is with her negative emotions, if she doesn't express any disappointment, anger, sadness to said person then she doesn't think she's safe with them.

Yep yep. Interestingly enough, she feels safe asking Sandor Clegane if he isn't afraid of going to hell for his evil deeds and calling him hateful -- because she trusts him. She lies through her teeth at LF, Tyrion, Lysa, et al -- because she doesn't trust them at all.

I don't recall her manipulating Joffery, but I doubt she intentionally created a scenario where he'd die, even though she might have seen an opportunity where could be killed and went with it).

She tried to manipulate him into being rash and getting himself killed during the battle when she told him that her brother Robb always went where the fighting was thickest because he was older than your Grace, a man grown.

Also, don't be so sure she's not out for vengeance. She wants to give Harrenhal to Lord Frey.

[FacelessGirl]

Great replies so far. I certainly think that with enough prodding (and a little informing; Sansa's not likely to forget or forgive LF if the truth of how he sold Ned to the gallows come to light), she could really make a move here.

I'll be honest. I don't think Westeros could handle this much sheer awesome.

I'll have to agree. The War of the Five Kings did just end. But man would it be awesome, though... ;)

[littlespider]

I'll be honest. I don't think Westeros could handle this much sheer awesome.

Heh. But before he gets his head lopped off by a very angry Hound, Sansa just has to tell LF something like "I told you not to trust me" or some variation thereof.

It's kind of reflected in the personality of her direwolf, the most trusting and docile of the bunch.

I agree with you, Cricket. That's how I've always read Lady, and why I've always had a lot of sympathy for Sansa as a character. Does Ned also observe that Lady is the smallest and gentlest? Can't remember exactly.