George Comments on SubPress GoT & CoK

[HappyTimes]

http://grrm.livejournal.com/234731.html

[KSC]

That's great news for 500 people...

I was so stoked when I began reading that until the part where it mentions it was only for the current sub holders. It makes sense, of course, but it would be nice to give another round of fans the opportunity to get in on these.

[Justinian]

GRRM wrote: I think it's a win/ win.

Well that's some bullshit right there. He can spin it how he likes, this is not a win if you've already got a complete set. Some here have and will argue that it is neutral. I disagree, but fine. But to argue it is a win is disingenuous at best and flat out dishonest at worst.

edit: I thought about replying in detail on GRRM's livejournal but this is apparently a fait accompli and probably wouldn't accomplish much except drawing ire from legions of devoted fans who would never see a flaw in a beloved icon. So no point in pot stirring. But it really, really ticks me off to stick it to me and then tell me that I should be happy about it. I'm not happy about it.

You can try to get me to say there are five lights all you want, but there are still four lights. (obStar Trek Reference)

[Justinian]

For what it is worth, I'm writing a letter to Bill at Sub Press. As I said this is clearly a fait accompli but as someone who has spent thousands of dollars on their books I think it's worth making sure they realize that not everyone is on board the train on this one.

[Elder Elemental Evil]

Hard to feel real happy about feeling force to spend an additional 800+ more on this series than initially intended.

[Justinian]

I've sent the following.

Bill:

I've been a customer of Subterranean Press for quite some time and have purchased thousands of dollars of your books; a few through resellers like Amazon but in large part directly from Sub Press. In fact right now I believe I have outstanding paid pre-orders for roughly half a dozen books at a cost of around a thousand dollars. So it's unfortunate that I feel this correspondence is necessary but George R. R. Martin recently went public with the plans to backfill Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings with Subterranean Press editions. Although we had heard about it before, until now I'd hoped perhaps it wouldn't happen.

George is spinning this as a win/win for everyone. It is probably a win for GRRM. It's likely a win for Subterranean Press. It may be a win for those collectors who have only a broken set of the books right now. It is quite obviously not a win for those of us currently possessing unbroken sets, particularly unbroken lettered sets, and attempting to call it a win is disingenuous at best and insulting at worst. Some will (perhaps correctly) say that the increasing popularity and exposure of the books because of the HBO series means that the value will only increase. But that simply means that the dilution of the value of an unbroken set will be counterbalanced by increased demand; It does not negate that dilutio, nor does it change the confusion as to what exactly will constitute a complete unbroken set in the future.

At best, what this means to those of us who spent a large amount of money on these novels and made sure to keep up with the publication history and to stay on top of things by following up with both MM and Sub Press is that we now have to spend at least $900 of previously unbudgeted money on copies of limited editions for novels we already own. Just to maintain what we already have; unbroken sets. That's not an insignificant investment to have to make. And we perceive it in many cases to be a decision based on self-interested feedback from people who stand to gain from republishing these editions. I was certainly not consulted, nor were any of those owners of unbroken lettered sets of whom I am aware. And there are certainly not very many. GRRM asking his biggest fans, members of the "brotherhood without banners", and those collectors standing to gain from this decision whether it is a good idea is not "consulting" by any meaningful definition.

Part of the compact between publishers of limited editions and collectors is that this sort of thing will not happen. I understand the very real mitigating factors at work here. I really do. The limited editions have a long and troubled history. If I didn't understand those mitigating factors I wouldn't do business with Subterranean Press in the future. But mitigating factors are just that; mitigating harm. That doesn't change the facts on the ground, which is that it was very clear when Subterranean Press took over from Meisha Merlin that the books Sub Press published were a continuation and not an entirely new series of limited. GRRM said as much in so many words. To go back and re-publish the first two novels in what everyone involved understood was a single series of limited editions is a breach of that unspoken compact between collectors and publishers.

This is obviously a fait accompli. It's done and it will happen. But I thought it was important, speaking as someone who really will take a hit from this decision, that you were aware that not everyone is applauding. Perhaps those who stand to gain outnumber those who do not by a considerable margin. In fact I'm sure it does. But "many people" isn't the same as "everyone". Subterranean Press and GRRM will get my $900 (assuming these two books cost $450 each) because I don't have any choice if I want to maintain my set, but it isn't a win for me or the other collectors who diligently pursued unbroken lettered sets.

-David XXXXX

owner of lettered set CC

[Justinian]

EEE: I'd encourage you to write to Sub Press as well to at least let them know you aren't a happy camper. You don't have to write a whole letter like I did. I'm hoping Dennis aka Sword of the Morning has done so as well. Will it matter? Likely not. But perhaps they'll take it into account inthe future.

[KSC]

And here I thought the people with the opportunity would be the happy ones.

I would tend to agree with grrm on the "win/win" comment, for those of you with subs. I mean, if you consider the original MM editions to be the "true" versions, then you can either pass on these, and your collection remains unaffected, or you could go ahead and purchase them to resell at a hefty profit. On the flipside, if you'd prefer that all five books from the series are uniform in every way, then you can get these SP versions and then sell off the originals. Again, at a nice profit. Or you could keep both versions. In my opinion, that seems like all win to me.

You can try to get me to say there are five lights all you want, but there are still four lights. (obStar Trek Reference)

Chain of Command is amazing.

[Geddon]

edit: I thought about replying in detail on GRRM's livejournal but this is apparently a fait accompli and probably wouldn't accomplish much except drawing ire from legions of devoted fans who would never see a flaw in a beloved icon.

You are on a fan forum dedicated to him, fella, what do you think the response is going to be here?

Collect books for long enough and you'll see all sorts of violations of the pact you mention, from reprinting limiteds, to increasing the number of books in the run when they have misjudged demand, to advertising features that never make it into the actual books, even abandoning series and starting over (as in this case). The reality is that when publishers say "limited edition" it is not a contract, an agreement or an accord, it is merely a marketing ploy. Publishers feel no real obligation to hold to the terms they state and have no qualms about changing those terms when it is in their interest to do so.

I've decided that, going forward, I'll ignore the "limited edition" part of any publisher or author's marketing materials and base my buying decision purely on features (such as the artist involved, binding materials, etc). My advice is to treat the LE stuff as bullshit from the very start, that way you won't get angry if the publisher reneges on their side of the bargain.

[Justinian]

You are on a fan forum dedicated to him, fella, what do you think the response is going to be here?

Hey, so far so good. Some people disagree, some agree, and everybody has been relatively polite. But we're all fans here to a greater or lesser degree. I mean I wouldn't have shelled out $350 for the first MM edition of Game of Thrones like 12 years ago if I weren't a fan myself. That's long before most people had ever heard of Game of Thrones after all.

Anyway, I've said my bit. I don't think its unreasonable, though, to think that posting the letter to Sub Press here is a lot less likely to result in Badness than posting it to GRRM's personal blog. The latter would be rather gauche at best.

[Bloody Ryder]

I've sent the following.

Bill:

I've been a customer of Subterranean Press for quite some time and have purchased thousands of dollars of your books; a few through resellers like Amazon but in large part directly from Sub Press. In fact right now I believe I have outstanding paid pre-orders for roughly half a dozen books at a cost of around a thousand dollars. So it's unfortunate that I feel this correspondence is necessary but George R. R. Martin recently went public with the plans to backfill Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings with Subterranean Press editions. Although we had heard about it before, until now I'd hoped perhaps it wouldn't happen.

George is spinning this as a win/win for everyone. It is probably a win for GRRM. It's likely a win for Subterranean Press. It may be a win for those collectors who have only a broken set of the books right now. It is quite obviously not a win for those of us currently possessing unbroken sets, particularly unbroken lettered sets, and attempting to call it a win is disingenuous at best and insulting at worst. Some will (perhaps correctly) say that the increasing popularity and exposure of the books because of the HBO series means that the value will only increase. But that simply means that the dilution of the value of an unbroken set will be counterbalanced by increased demand; It does not negate that dilutio, nor does it change the confusion as to what exactly will constitute a complete unbroken set in the future.

At best, what this means to those of us who spent a large amount of money on these novels and made sure to keep up with the publication history and to stay on top of things by following up with both MM and Sub Press is that we now have to spend at least $900 of previously unbudgeted money on copies of limited editions for novels we already own. Just to maintain what we already have; unbroken sets. That's not an insignificant investment to have to make. And we perceive it in many cases to be a decision based on self-interested feedback from people who stand to gain from republishing these editions. I was certainly not consulted, nor were any of those owners of unbroken lettered sets of whom I am aware. And there are certainly not very many. GRRM asking his biggest fans, members of the "brotherhood without banners", and those collectors standing to gain from this decision whether it is a good idea is not "consulting" by any meaningful definition.

Part of the compact between publishers of limited editions and collectors is that this sort of thing will not happen. I understand the very real mitigating factors at work here. I really do. The limited editions have a long and troubled history. If I didn't understand those mitigating factors I wouldn't do business with Subterranean Press in the future. But mitigating factors are just that; mitigating harm. That doesn't change the facts on the ground, which is that it was very clear when Subterranean Press took over from Meisha Merlin that the books Sub Press published were a continuation and not an entirely new series of limited. GRRM said as much in so many words. To go back and re-publish the first two novels in what everyone involved understood was a single series of limited editions is a breach of that unspoken compact between collectors and publishers.

This is obviously a fait accompli. It's done and it will happen. But I thought it was important, speaking as someone who really will take a hit from this decision, that you were aware that not everyone is applauding. Perhaps those who stand to gain outnumber those who do not by a considerable margin. In fact I'm sure it does. But "many people" isn't the same as "everyone". Subterranean Press and GRRM will get my $900 (assuming these two books cost $450 each) because I don't have any choice if I want to maintain my set, but it isn't a win for me or the other collectors who diligently pursued unbroken lettered sets.

-David XXXXX

owner of lettered set CC

You're obviously someone whose primary interest in the limited/lettered editions is as an investment. And now you're afraid you're going to lose money because there'll be new editions of GoT and CoK--an assessment I don't quite share: the Meisha Merlins will always be of interest, because they're different editions, with different features and illustrations. They'll be the added bonus to an unbroken and uniform set of Sub Press limited editions; and GRRM and the good folks at Sub Press are now giving you and all the other owners of those books the unique chance to get a uniform set. That is a good thing. I don't see how you cannot label that a WIN.

But, see, I don't worry about that stuff, because I don't buy these books with a view to make a killing on the secondary market some years down the line when I try selling them. I buy them because I'm a fan of the books, of the illustrated & signed editions, and I want to put them on my shelf. I don't intend to sell them. So I couldn't care less if the set would theoretically get me a hundred bucks more or less on eBay. Or two hundred bucks. Or whatever. I don't care. It's about the books, not the green. And anyone who shares that attitude, who doesn't collect the books to make money, will be happy to buy those new Sub Press editions.

Also, it's a labor of love, man. Sure, Sub Press is going to make some money on these books. As they should, otherwise they're earmarked for bankruptcy, just like Meisha Merlin. But what you got to understand is that this not some devious ploy so Bill & Co. can fatten their bags; quite the opposite, this is a service to the fans. Now you'll be able to have a FULL set of Sub Press editions.

Repeat, a service to the fans; maybe not necessarily to the collectors (i.e. the ones trying to sell their books at a profit) because, sure, most people will probably be content to own a full set of Sub Press editions; however, as already stated above, there'll be those who'll want ALL the editions. So, on the whole, an unbroken set including the Meisha Merlins will always be MORE DESIRABLE than just the Sub Press books on their own. But, however this may be, I'm on the side of every fan who buys these books because he loves the stories and wants to have them in the best editions available. Sub Press is taking a step toward ensuring that THE FANS get what they want.

Also, with all due respect, but if you're in the limited/lettered edition game--which means that you're a person prepared to spend several hundred dollars on A SINGLE BOOK--you're probably less hard up than most. Another $900 will be just that ... another $900. Sure, you could have bought other books for that moola, but it won't be the end of the world. And it sure as hell won't put you in the streets.

My advice is, deal with it and stop whining. And maybe spare a thought for all those poor schmucks with busted sets who'll now have the chance to get a complete run. I mean, ain't that great? I have sufficient empathy to take great pleasure in that knowledge. And that's what GRRM means when he talks about the WIN/WIN. He doesn't give a hoot about the guys looking to make some bucks by scalping the fans on eBay. He cares about the fans who buy the books because they love them. So do I. (And trust me, GRRM's not in it for the money ... if he hasn't enough dough already, he never will ... and I don't have him pegged as the greedy type ... not like he craves all that money to don a new Armani suit whenever he sits down in front of the TV cameras to give an interview).

But if you're really so fed up with these books, why don't you put the ones you have on eBay and cash in right now, see if you, too, can get ten grand for your lettered editions? Just a thought.

[Justinian]

Oh come on. You think I dropped $350 on the first book in a relatively little known series in the year 2000 so I could scalp fans on Ebay 12 years later? That shows a basic lack of respect for someone who disagrees with you.

[Geddon]

Bloody Ryder, do you own a copy of any of the MM editions?

[Bloody Ryder]

Oh come on. You think I dropped $350 on the first book in a relatively little known series in the year 2000 so I could scalp fans on Ebay 12 years later? That shows a basic lack of respect for someone who disagrees with you.

Then where's the beef? You seem to be seeing only the negative aspects of your particular situation. Aren't you the least bit excited that they've lined up a very cool artist to do illustrations for GoT and that when it's all said and done you'll have a full set of uniform editions from the same publisher and in the same style?

You called Sub Press's efforts disingenuous, even insulting, and that would be the case if they'd been publishing those volumes from the start and were now turning around and reprinting the first two books of THEIR editions. Which is not what they are doing. They took over after MM, so a change in style was inevitable. Even if the books had been the same size and had the same layout and features ... it still would have been a different publisher. Now we're getting a full set of Sub Press editions. I can't say this often enough: why is this a bad thing, unless you're just making this about dollars and doughnuts.

@Geddon: yes.

Also, Justinian, don't get this the wrong way but you're making yourself out to be this uber-serious collector just because you've got the lettered editions and half a dozen pre-orders going over at Sub Press ... and you're mad because GRRM and Bill and whoever else did not ask YOU ... but why should they? Obviously they don't know you. GRRM probably asked the people he knew well, so where's the harm in that? I'm not a hardcore collector myself, but I've got a lot more Sub Press pre-orders than you do. Which just goes to show what exactly? Nothing at all.

Just answer me this: monetary value aside, if the books turn out to be really nicely done, won't you be glad to have them? Isn't that the whole point of collecting books? To have well-made & cool editions of the books you enjoy?

[Geddon]

You called Sub Press's efforts disingenuous, even insulting, and that would be the case if they'd been publishing those volumes from the start and were now turning around and reprinting the first two books of THEIR editions.

So if Sub Press decided to reprint ASoS and AFfC that would be disingenuous and insulting. Why? On what grounds would your objection be based?

[Bloody Ryder]

So if Sub Press decided to reprint ASoS and AFfC that would be disingenuous and insulting. Why? On what grounds would your objection be based?

You don't see the difference? What you're suggesting would be a reprint of the exact same book to add a 2nd print run to the first, thereby selling more books of the same title, changing the game on the people who've bought the first editions. What they're doing now is publishing their own versions with all-new illustrations for the sake of consistency. It's the same book, sure, it's still Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings, but it's a different layout, different artwork, now finally consistent with the other Sub Press volumes.

Also, I should have put a 'maybe' before that 'disingenuous'/'insulting' ... I was merely quoting the previous poster. I would not see it quite as stringent.

I would appreciate your sharing your take on this.

[Justinian]

Then where's the beef? You seem to be seeing only the negative aspects of your particular situation. Aren't you the least bit excited that they've lined up a very cool artist to do illustrations for GoT and that when it's all said and done you'll have a full set of uniform editions from the same publisher and in the same style?

I already bought an expensive limited edition of Game of Thrones with illustrations so no, I'm not excited. I don't exactly have $400 to spare. These books are the single most expensive books I own; you seem to think you can draw conclusions about my financial situation based on that but you really can't. No more than you could decide that someone with an Xbox 360 and a couple games is well-off; the price is similar. (Not the resale value, sure, but the initial outlay).

Why in heck would I actually want to buy multiple expensive versions of the same book? The answer is; I wouldn't unless it's an investment. But I don't collect as an investment, SO I DONT WANT to have to buy another $400 copy of a book I already own! Doesn't that make sense? The very fact that I don't want this book is evidence that I'm NOT primarily an investor.

Lastly, we still won't have a matching set after all this. The STORM OF SWORDS edition from Sub Press does not match the other Sub Press editions. Are they going to go back and re-do that one as well?

You called Sub Press's efforts disingenuous, even insulting

To be clear, I did not. I called GRRM's statement that this is a win/win situation disingenuous. Sub Press hasn't made any statements at all as far as I can tell.

Also, Justinian, don't get this the wrong way but you're making yourself out to be this uber-serious collector just because you've got the lettered editions

No, no I'm not. You're putting words in my mouth.

and you're mad because GRRM and Bill and whoever else did not ask YOU

Again, words in my mouth. I'm not upset they didn't ask me personally, I'm upset because GRRM represented this as a decision made with input from the people who are affected and as a win/win situation. But so far as I am aware there was no input from the people most affected financially and it clearly ISNT a win/win situation. It's a win/win/lose situation.

Just answer me this: monetary value aside, if the books turn out to be really nicely done, won't you be glad to have them? Isn't that the whole point of collecting books? To have well-made & cool editions of the books you enjoy?

I'd be glad to have them if you gave them to me for free. I'm not getting them for free, I'm being charged $400 dollars for them. And I already have a well-made and cool edition of GAME OF THRONES, that's the whole point.

Let me ask you this: Wouldn't you be glad to enjoy a wonderful, tasty, exquisitely prepared meal? Of course you would. Now how about you pay me $500 for it? Are you less enthusiastic? It's the same thing.

[Justinian]

Ok, I doubt Ran wants this to become another big back and forth so I'll stop now with this: Bill from Sub Press wrote me back a thoughtful email and I thanked him for his reply. As far as I'm concerned he heard my opinion and that's that. I should have asked him if it was okay to post (most of) his email since I posted my original one. But I didn't think of it until now. Suffice it to say that he understands the position of people who disagree with Sub Press' decision and says he'll obviously take that into account when facing these sorts of cases in the future.

It doesn't change the facts on the ground, of course, but I do think Bill (and those of us affected) do understand each-other.

[Bloody Ryder]

I already bought an expensive limited edition of Game of Thrones with illustrations so no, I'm not excited. I don't exactly have $400 to spare. These books are the single most expensive books I own; you seem to think you can draw conclusions about my financial situation based on that but you really can't. No more than you could decide that someone with an Xbox 360 and a couple games is well-off; the price is similar. (Not the resale value, sure, but the initial outlay).

Why in heck would I actually want to buy multiple expensive versions of the same book? The answer is; I wouldn't unless it's an investment. But I don't collect as an investment, SO I DONT WANT to have to buy another $400 copy of a book I already own! Doesn't that make sense? The very fact that I don't want this book is evidence that I'm NOT primarily an investor.

Lastly, we still won't have a matching set after all this. The STORM OF SWORDS edition from Sub Press does not match the other Sub Press editions. Are they going to go back and re-do that one as well?

To be clear, I did not. I called GRRM's statement that this is a win/win situation disingenuous. Sub Press hasn't made any statements at all as far as I can tell.

No, no I'm not. You're putting words in my mouth.

Again, words in my mouth. I'm not upset they didn't ask me personally, I'm upset because GRRM represented this as a decision made with input from the people who are affected and as a win/win situation. But so far as I am aware there was no input from the people most affected financially and it clearly ISNT a win/win situation. It's a win/win/lose situation.

I'd be glad to have them if you gave them to me for free. I'm not getting them for free, I'm being charged $400 dollars for them. And I already have a well-made and cool edition of GAME OF THRONES, that's the whole point.

Let me ask you this: Wouldn't you be glad to enjoy a wonderful, tasty, exquisitely prepared meal? Of course you would. Now how about you pay me $500 for it? Are you less enthusiastic? It's the same thing.

Do you have the regular first editions as well? Granted, they're a lot cheaper and probably serve as reading copies, but WHY would you want to have multiple copies of the same book. There's people who collect all kinds of different editions: US/UK, even foreign language versions. It just really depends on the type of collector you are.

Look, I do get what you're saying, one set is enough, but I just have a different take on this: okay, fine, there's the MM books, they're nice and all but now there'll be a set from the same publisher in matching style. I'll still want the MM's because they have different illustrations. It's like having the US and UK versions of the same book ... this just as an example.

I don't see how your quip about the fine meal is relevant in this context, but as to the matter of presenting you with a free copy of GoT and CoK--good one. Do you think I'm getting them for free? Granted, I'm not doing the lettered editions, so I'll get off a tad cheaper than you will. But nothing's for free in this world. If you want to have them, you'll have to pay for them.

But, hey, couldn't you also just say, screw them, I'm not getting the SP's of Game and Clash? I mean, if you're really just about the books and not about resale value, why do you feel compelled to get the new editions? No tongue in cheek intended here, btw, honest question. Isn't it just totally anal to go along with this if you don't want to? I mean, of course, in for a penny, in for a pound, you've come this far, but really, if you're content with the MM's, why not just skip GoT and CoK?

[Justinian]

Bloody Ryder: It's exactly like you say, "in for a penny, in for a pound.". Not buying them would be cutting off your nose to spite your face since it would be breaking an until-now complete set. Is that a little having it both ways if I'm not a serious investor kind of collector? Sure. But I'd have to be an idiot not to scrounge together $800 or $900 to preserve a more than $10,000 set. You know it as well as I do and, I think, would do the same in my place.

It would take a Ned Stark level of pigheaded obstinancy not to go ahead and buy the books even if it annoyed me to do so. Unlike Ned, I intend to keep my head stuck where it belongs.