[ADWD Spoiler] How to swap a baby

[KhalDrogoReborn]

Right, but if you ascribe Rhaegar's motivations for absconding with Lyanna to prophecy fulfillment, which IMO is most likely, he would have no motivation to "dishonor" Ashara @ Harenhall. It wasn't known until Aegon's birth that Elia would from then on be infertile. Until the maesters declared this, there's no reason for Rhaegar to believe that Elia wouldn't give him the three kids the prophecy required.

I don't know, maybe he just wanted to fool around a little bit...

And we know she was hot.

[MtnLion]

And Ashara probably never actually met Aegon anyway, or at least not since he was a very young baby, being dishonoured by her own un-wed pregnancy and having left the court.

I didn't suggest Elia left court.

Ah, yes, fixed. I meant Ashara. But I did ask if there were other instances that you can cite in the books. You seem to be making an assertion that you know this was the case, yet I have seen nothing to support it in the works.

[corbon]

Ah, yes, fixed. I meant Ashara. But I did ask if there were other instances that you can cite in the books. You seem to be making an assertion that you know this was the case, yet I have seen nothing to support it in the works.

Probably.

[Ludd]

OK we have a lot of babies

1. Aegon born about the time of Harrenhall 16 or so (if alive ) at the start of thebooks

2. An unknown baby to Ashara Dayne, father a Stark or Aerys but conceived at Harrenhall , let us say a year older than Robb/Jon

3. Robb conceived at the beginning of the rebellion or a few months after Harrenhall- HOWEVER I think that BRANDON is his father not Ned. Ned married Catelyn to prevent family shame, possibly NOT realizing he had himself fathered a bastard

4. Jon also conceived very close to the beginning of the rebellion (Robb and Jon are close in age)

5. Dany born a year or so after Jon and Robb conceived at the end of the rebellion

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

OK we have a lot of babies

1. Aegon born about the time of Harrenhall 16 or so (if alive ) at the start of thebooks

2. An unknown baby to Ashara Dayne, father a Stark or Aerys but conceived at Harrenhall , let us say a year older than Robb/Jon

3. Robb conceived at the beginning of the rebellion or a few months after Harrenhall- HOWEVER I think that BRANDON is his father not Ned. Ned married Catelyn to prevent family shame, possibly NOT realizing he had himself fathered a bastard

4. Jon also conceived very close to the beginning of the rebellion (Robb and Jon are close in age)

5. Dany born a year or so after Jon and Robb conceived at the end of the rebellion

Can we add Rhaegar to the list of candidates that "dishonored" Ashara at harrenhall? May not be likely but the theory is being floated around here.

As to the Brandon fathering Robb, I was just reading ACoK last night and Catelyn remembers her betrothal to Brandon, and Petyr's subsiquent banishment. She also recalls giving Ned everything including her maidenhead as a dutiful daughter. It's an internal monologue so I don't think she lied to herself about who she lost her virginity too lol.

[MtnLion]

Harrenhal Tourney was held in the year of the false spring (followed by a year of winter?). Brandon went to King's Landing after hearing of his sister's disappearance, which I believe is some months after Aegon's birth. After Brandon and Rickard are executed, Aerys called for Ned's and Robert's heads from Jon Arryn. Ned and Jon Arryn married the Tullys to gain their support for the rebellion. Ned left the wedding bed to go to war, and nine months later Robb was born. Robb was still and infant when Catelyn travelled to Winterfell, so we can assume that it was about a year of war. So, Harrenhal was about 20-21 months before the fall of King's Landing, and Daenerys is born 9 months after the fall of King's Landing.

Since I believe that Aegon is Ashara's son, it would require a Targaryen to have dishonored Ashara. Rhaegar is a possibility, but I find that unlikely, because of how he is remembered by the others.

[Where Boars Glow]

Didn't Barriston say a Stark dishonored her? Im pretty sure the confusion is between which Stark not if it was Stark or Targaryen

Was he in the room at the time? I think this theory is allmost spot on

[Where Boars Glow]

I also think that Ned...was in love with Ashara. he gave her comfort after her ordeal with the mad King. It would be easy to think it was his fault for a guy like Barristan who watched her from afar hanging out with the young Stark then leaving Harrenhal crying to go into seclusion. Barristan is a great and noble warrior...but Sherlock Homes he is not.

[Where Boars Glow]

I have this theory in my head and I have to get it out:

• Ashara was 'dishonored' at Harrenhal by Rhaegar and became pregnant
  
• Elia became pregnant at approximately the same time
  
• Elia, in delicate health, confined herself in her chambers for the duration on her pregnancy being attended by only Ashara and Wylla
  
• A few people know that Ashara is pregnant: Elia, Rhaegar, Wylla, Barristan; but mostly she is kept hidden in Elia's room to save her from disgrace
  
• Elia and Ashara go into labor at approximately the same time
  
• Elia gives birth to a stillborn daughter; Ashara gives birth to a healthy son
  
• Ashara gives the distraught Elia her son – Ashara, being unmarried knows she cannot keep him. The people who knew of Ashara's pregnancy are told the stillborn daughter is Ashara's
  
• Rhaegar names his son Aegon (as per Dany's vision in the house of the Undying, where Elia is in bed with the new baby)
  
• By this stage the Rebellion is underway and Rhaegar fears for the safety of his son
  
• With Varys's assistance, Rhaegar switches Aegon with a common baby
  
• Rhaegar orders Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and the other dude whose name I can never remember to escort Ashara and Aegon to Starfall
  
• The 3KG are then ordered to remain at the ToJ to guard Lyanna and to prevent attackers from the north from getting to Starfall
  
• Rhaegar dies, Kings Landing is sacked, Robert wins
  
• Ned Stark and companions go to the ToJ, kill the 3KG, find the dying Lyanna and pick up baby Jon
  
• Ned goes on to Starfall to return Dawn to Ashara and to break the bad news that the Targs have fallen
  
• Ashara, with assistance from Varys, fakes her own death and takes Aegon into exile
  
• A few years later Varys sends Jon Connington to help Ashara raise Aegon
  
• Ashara takes on the guise of Septa Lemore
  
• Therefore Aegon is the son of Rhaegar, but as he is not the son of Rhaegar's legitimate wife, Aegon is not Rhaegar's legitimate heir
  
• Only Elia and Ashara knew of the original swap, so Ashara aka Lemore is the only person alive who knows that she is the mother of Aegon. Varys, JonCon and everyone else involved believe Aegon to be Rhaegar's legitimate heir.
  

This theory still raises many questions, but I feel as though I would weaken my central arguements by saying "maybe this or maybe that", so this is the 'broad strokes' version. I am happy to fill in any speculative 'fine details'...

Wait I misread. Mad King was the one who dishonored Ashara....not Rhegar. So everything else was correct except that

Dany and Aegon and 1/2 siblings

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Was he in the room at the time? I think this theory is allmost spot on

I also think that Ned...was in love with Ashara. he gave her comfort after her ordeal with the mad King. It would be easy to think it was his fault for a guy like Barristan who watched her from afar hanging out with the young Stark then leaving Harrenhal crying to go into seclusion. Barristan is a great and noble warrior...but Sherlock Homes he is not.

Wait I misread. Mad King was the one who dishonored Ashara....not Rhegar. So everything else was correct except that

Dany and Aegon and 1/2 siblings

Whoa :eek: Triple post... plz use edit/multiquote button.

[VaramyrSixchins]

I have yet to be convinced that "look to Stark" can refer to anything other than sex w a Stark. The whole overarching theme of Selmy's musings is his regret at what he terms his greatest failure- the failure to win the tourney of Harrenhal. Why is this his greatest failure? Because, he tells us, had he done so, he could have prevented both Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna and Ashara's suicide. If one holds the position that "look to Stark" refers to some non sexual comfort that a Stark provided, then the question becomes what comfort could Selmy have provided that would've somehow prevented her suicide? There isn't any. What he's saying is that by winning the tourney and crowning Ashara, he could've prevented the dishonor in the first place. Since he specifically cites a stillbirth and grief for a dishonorer as reasons for the suicide, the "dishonor" has to be sex. Might she looked to me instead of Stark=had she known my feelings, would she have had sex w Stark. To me, any other explanation is reaching...

[MtnLion]

It is always interesting when:

Quote: If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark.

is read as a Stark had dishonored Ashara.

Try this excercise:

Quote: If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark to be dishonored.

We know that the tourney lasted ten days, to allow for all of the jousting challenges to be satisfied. The crown was awarded at the conclusion of festivities. So, if Barristan hopes to make an impression on Ashara at the conclusion (after he says she had been dishonored) that would influence her future choices and prevent her from committing suicide, we can project the "looked to" as nearer Ashara's suicide.

[Where Boars Glow]

I have yet to be convinced that "look to Stark" can refer to anything other than sex w a Stark. The whole overarching theme of Selmy's musings is his regret at what he terms his greatest failure- the failure to win the tourney of Harrenhal. Why is this his greatest failure? Because, he tells us, had he done so, he could have prevented both Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna and Ashara's suicide. If one holds the position that "look to Stark" refers to some non sexual comfort that a Stark provided, then the question becomes what comfort could Selmy have provided that would've somehow prevented her suicide? There isn't any. What he's saying is that by winning the tourney and crowning Ashara, he could've prevented the dishonor in the first place. Since he specifically cites a stillbirth and grief for a dishonorer as reasons for the suicide, the "dishonor" has to be sex. Might she looked to me instead of Stark=had she known my feelings, would she have had sex w Stark. To me, any other explanation is reaching...

Right but maybe he is assuming that Stark was the one to impregnate her....but how would he really know.

Did Eddard or Brandon take her in the center of the tourney grounds?

Again I think she was romantically linked to the Stark brothers at the time....but it was Ayres who actually did the deed.

[Mulled Wino]

So Rhaegar has 3 pregnant baby mommas at once?

[VaramyrSixchins]

It is always interesting when:

Quote: If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark.

is read as a Stark had dishonored Ashara.

Try this excercise:

Quote: If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark to be dishonored.

We know that the tourney lasted ten days, to allow for all of the jousting challenges to be satisfied. The crown was awarded at the conclusion of festivities. So, if Barristan hopes to make an impression on Ashara at the conclusion (after he says she had been dishonored) that would influence her future choices and prevent her from committing suicide, we can project the "looked to" as nearer Ashara's suicide.

I'm not seeing it, but suppose for a second that this is the case. It still doesn't explain why this would be his greatest failure. The things that are associated w a Stark regarding Ashara's suicide- killing Arthur Dayne, returning Dawn, are conspicuously absent from Selmy's list of Ashara's suicidal motives. Now, obviously, Selmy wouldn't have killed Author Dayne, but, if the assertion here is that Selmy's regret stems from some influence he could have exerted better than a Stark, why doesn't he at least give SOME thought to a Stark's contribution to motives for suicide?

[VaramyrSixchins]

Right but maybe he is assuming that Stark was the one to impregnate her....but how would he really know.

Did Eddard or Brandon take her in the center of the tourney grounds?

Again I think she was romantically linked to the Stark brothers at the time....but it was Ayres who actually did the deed.

So Ashara was mad w grief at the death of the Mad King? Seems unlikely.

What's interesting is that Selmy is the first, and so far only, one to tell us that Ashara's daughter was stillborn. Rumors had her pregnant, but Edric Dayne never said she was. In fact, he has Ned knocking up the servant of Ashara, despite loving her. Ashara having a stillbirth clears up this discrepancy somewhat. So, if Selmy's account of a stillbirth can be corroborated, it gives him more credibility when he implies a Stark is the father, IMO, anyway...

[MtnLion]

I'm not seeing it, but suppose for a second that this is the case. It still doesn't explain why this would be his greatest failure. The things that are associated w a Stark regarding Ashara's suicide- killing Arthur Dayne, returning Dawn, are conspicuously absent from Selmy's list of Ashara's suicidal motives. Now, obviously, Selmy wouldn't have killed Author Dayne, but, if the assertion here is that Selmy's regret stems from some influence he could have exerted better than a Stark, why doesn't he at least give SOME thought to a Stark's contribution to motives for suicide?

You are talking about Ned Stark's actions, actions which Selmy does not seem to know about. Barristan is replaying in his head what he knows, or has been able to gather that may have contributed to Ashara's suicide. So, it seems the majority if not all of the realm are completely in the dark about what happened to those three Kingsguard. That seems odd when Dawn is returned, unless House Dayne is playing a part in concealing their deaths as well. (but, I digress.)

Is it possible that looking to someone for legalistic resolution is possible? If, say the king, rapes someone; who can that someone turn to for a legal settlement? Remember what Catelyn did with Tyrion? She took him the Riverlands with her father's sworn men, and transported him tothe Vale for trial. Was the intent here to hold the king accountable, and somehow impose a punishment? Could Barristan have done so, with the help of his Kingsguard brothers? We do get plenty of dissatisfaction with Aerys from the Kingsguard perspective.

[VaramyrSixchins]

You are talking about Ned Stark's actions, actions which Selmy does not seem to know about. Barristan is replaying in his head what he knows, or has been able to gather that may have contributed to Ashara's suicide. So, it seems the majority if not all of the realm are completely in the dark about what happened to those three Kingsguard. That seems odd when Dawn is returned, unless House Dayne is playing a part in concealing their deaths as well. (but, I digress.)

Is it possible that looking to someone for legalistic resolution is possible? If, say the king, rapes someone; who can that someone turn to for a legal settlement? Remember what Catelyn did with Tyrion? She took him the Riverlands with her father's sworn men, and transported him tothe Vale for trial. Was the intent here to hold the king accountable, and somehow impose a punishment? Could Barristan have done so, with the help of his Kingsguard brothers? We do get plenty of dissatisfaction with Aerys from the Kingsguard perspective.

While I agree there is a ton of secrecy regarding the events at ToJ during the war, I think it's debatable on how little is known about the deaths of the KG. It seems to be known in the North, anyway, that Ned killed Authur. Cersei knows, at least, that Ned visited Starfall shortly before Ashara's suicide. If this is known in KL 15-17 years after the fact, wouldn't Selmy know, too?

As to the "look to Stark"=seeking justice angle, it's an interesting concept. What gives me pause is Selmy attributing grief for the dishonorer as a suicidal motivator. Seeking justice against the king, yet killing yourself in grief when that justice is given seems a little incongruent, no?

[MtnLion]

While I agree there is a ton of secrecy regarding the events at ToJ during the war, I think it's debatable on how little is known about the deaths of the KG. It seems to be known in the North, anyway, that Ned killed Authur. Cersei knows, at least, that Ned visited Starfall shortly before Ashara's suicide. If this is known in KL 15-17 years after the fact, wouldn't Selmy know, too?

Cersei does have access to Varys, which Selmy may not have. That Ned faced Arthur seems to be known in the Winterfell household, and it could be known by Selmy as well. But, Selmy does not mention it as a possible reason for Ashara's suicide, so he is not connecting the two, if he does know.

As to the "look to Stark"=seeking justice angle, it's an interesting concept. What gives me pause is Selmy attributing grief for the dishonorer as a suicidal motivator. Seeking justice against the king, yet killing yourself in grief when that justice is given seems a little incongruent, no?

If you read the sentence it could be grief for the man who dishonored Ashara, or it could be grief for the dishonor. That whole bit of Barristan's is maddeningly abiguous, and probably had to be. Barristan as a POV was GRRM's way of untying the Meereen knot, and Barristan may know much more than GRRM wants us to know.

[Where Boars Glow]

So Ashara was mad w grief at the death of the Mad King? Seems unlikely.

What's interesting is that Selmy is the first, and so far only, one to tell us that Ashara's daughter was stillborn. Rumors had her pregnant, but Edric Dayne never said she was. In fact, he has Ned knocking up the servant of Ashara, despite loving her. Ashara having a stillbirth clears up this discrepancy somewhat. So, if Selmy's account of a stillbirth can be corroborated, it gives him more credibility when he implies a Stark is the father, IMO, anyway...

No she was mad with grief at being raped by the Mad King. Which seems totally likely. Then sweet young Eddard Stark tries to comfort her...I don't beleive in a sexual way...in a genuine friendship way.

Why does that give Selmy more credibility?