Sandor Clegane 3

[Starbird]

There's a very small undercurrent of the supernatural (much like ASOIAF), but the majority is straight historical fiction.

I can see him calling her "Sansa". I think he will whenever he admits his feelings for her. That'll hit home for her that he's totes serious. Now, her calling him "Sandor"? I dunno. I have a hard time seeing it. But I guess it could happen.

Thanks!

I think they have to start using first names at some point. To make an absolutely archaic reference, in the 80's movie Baby Boom, with Diane Keaton, there's a scene where she and and Harold Ramis are interviewing potential parents for the baby they want to put up for adoption. One couple is right off the farm and the meek wife calls the husband "sir" and it freaks them out. This is what I think of when I think about Sansa calling Sandor "my lord" 20 years from now.

If I have to be honest, it would be very awkward, I think, but not icky or repulsive.

It *should* be awkward, which could be awesome. I fear that GRRM will construct some scenario to make it . . . disturbing.

ETA: He also assumes she slept with Tyrion. Some of that disgust could show up in the bedroom, which would be a huge issue.

But when does it stop being twisted?

When they finish hashing out their issues. See below.

Short answer? It doesn't. The relationship is inherently twisted and certainly isn't evocative of true love. They don't know enough about each other to love each other. It is based in very specific needs that each of them have that are fulfilled by the other. ...

And it works perfectly and beautifully as romantic tragedy, and hey, isn't Sansa's favorite song about Florian and Jonquil a romantic tragedy?

You make a good point, as usual, and I can't fault your logic. It will be interesting to see how Sansa reacts if she meets with Harry face-to-face. I get the feeling that she's not impressed with his resume thus far, and rightly so.

I think one thing that could work in their favor, though, is if Sandor and Sansa have the opportunity to get to know each other better. Their verbal communication thus far has been surprisingly direct and honest. They talk about their "real" issues, too.

Of course, there's always the possibility that their relationship may never be sexual (beyond the one required hot session, that is). If Sansa decides that politics is for her and she wants to lead the Stark restoration, I could see Sandor being a valued advisor, kind of like what Dany has with her entourage. Their "relationship" could then just be a crush from their pasts. Great. Now I'm dying (again) for the next book. I have to know what he's like when he gets off the QI!

[Black Amethyst]

Whew! So many good points of discussion here, but FIRST, since I am to blame for the dirty talk suggestion:

-Ok, ok! I concede to you guys that it would be weird. Obviously it would be hot to me, but she's pretty young. That, and I think we are all getting different versions of what exactly that dirty talk would consist of in our heads. :lol:

-The show. Oh... the show. Season one was a disappoint for the Hound content, for sure. I get that they didn't want to do the feast scene or whatever. But they cut the one scene in my mind was that was so contextually important for setting up their relationship all through the series. And gave it to LF???? WHY would he know? No one else is supposed to really know. I would have preferred anything else. A short walk together between Sandor and Sansa, a break in the tourney in a quiet moment....Anything. There was so much other pointless exposition where important stuff could have taken place that it rankled with me. As for season two, I have absolutely no idea what is in store. I reserve any type of judgement on that yet.

-Alexia said it really well that to Sandor, Sansa is a beautiful girl that he wants to bang. I agree that simply is the heart of it, but what I will add to that is that I'm sure he's seen lots of beautiful girls that he wanted to bang before, but it was Sansa's personality that changed everything for him. Undoubtedly she was the first one that bothered to talk to him, or look at him, or was really ever around him that much (being Joff's bethrothed.) I think him opening up to her on that walk after the tourney was him realizing that she had zero tools to protect herself at court, and thinking she might get into a bad situation. So it was time for an honesty bomb. It was probably mean to crush her dream-like perspective on the event, but admittedly he had a unique perspective that I'm glad he shared.

-Someone made a comment about Sandor and his nicknames and when is he actually going to start using people's names? Short answer to that is never. Sandor is one of those guys that gives nicknames to people as a sign of affection I think, or merely to amuse himself. We ALL know someone like that in real life, come on. Sometimes we think it's really fucking annoying, but sometimes it's cute and fitting. He's a bad-ass. He ignores social status. I will say though if he were getting intimate with Sansa, he would use her name as he would be in a completely different mood.But he might come up with a couple of new nicknames for her afterwards :P

-Alexia also said that she wants them to play out as a romantic tragedy, and I totally agree. As much as I don't want Sandor to die, I would be OK with him dying if he got to achieve that, and have someone love him and miss him. We want him to be happy. Also there have been so many references to Sansa's life not being like a song, or her thinking it was a song. I actually think that is one part of her life that WILL turn out that way, because life is NOT a song, but for that brief time with him, it was...type thing. If that makes sense. The gruffest non-knight bad-ass with a fucked up face, and a fucked up leg being the one part of her life like a song would be amazing.

[Alexia]

Regarding Sandor being not of Sansa's social standing, with Gregor legally dead does he not inherit House Clegane? It's not like he's a sellsword or commoner man-at-arms.

Sandor would then be a landed knight, and of a tiny keep at that. Sansa is, in his words, "a high lord's get" and is essentially royalty (a princess for a while, even if no one in KL acknowledged it). LF has the more prestigious title between the Cleganes and the Baelishes, and I think that they are pretty similar outside of the title. And LF is considered to be far too low-born to marry the daughter of a high lord... until he got Harrenhal.

@ Black Amethyst, I approve of the dirty talk suggestion myself. :lol:

[headtrip_honey]

Still twisted, because I dispute the idea that this is a healthy adult relationship. Sandor hated that he left her there to be forced into marriage to Tyrion, but he expresses it by announcing that he should have raped and murdered her instead. :ack: Seriously twisted. And Sansa starts fantasizing about him, but instead of fantasizing in a normal way (as in, I wish he'd kissed me) decides to convince herself that her fantasies are reality. Twisted.

Well, he said that as he was trying to get Arya to put him out of his misery. He also reminded her about Mycah at that point. I'd say there was a fair amount of him trying to piss her off enough to stab him out of anger. So you do have to consider that.

I say she doesn't see anyone else as attractive after they watched her being beaten without interceding or trying to comfort her in any way (maybe attractive is a better word than available to express my thoughts here?). Sandor did try to intercede on her behalf and she saw him as her protector. I also want to point out that she really begin to wish for his presence after he saved her from the riot, to the point where she thought that she wished Dontos was more like him.

But what about at the Eyrie? If she was so into the protection thing, why isn't she crushing on LF? He's "protected" her. He helped her escape Kings Landing. He's attractive, he's available. But she's just kinda squicked out about him. This may go into your "he's not a safe crush" theory, however.

But there were plenty of other dudes around at the Eyrie. But she just kept thinking about the Hound.

But why? I love snarling, snapping, angry Sandor Clegane. His cynicism, his rage... it all goes so far towards making him a fantastic character. Without it, you'd just have a depressed alcoholic. Without his ferocity, I'd question whether Sansa would even be attracted to him still. My firm hope is that the man is resting up at the QI, waiting for his leg to heal up, and getting some anger management therapy and a little religion (no more daggers at Sansa's throat, dude!) and that he will soon be back, more ferocious, angrier, and snarling more than ever! (none of which makes him marriage material!)

But maybe he wouldn't be a depressed alcoholic if someone actually cared about him! Then he could just be a cranky and surly son of a bitch who was gentle with his lady. And only her.

EDIT: After reading this, I'm kinda grossing myself out with my squishiness. I'm usually a total sarcastic hardass. ::runs off sobbing::

[Alexia]

-Alexia also said that she wants them to play out as a romantic tragedy, and I totally agree. As much as I don't want Sandor to die, I would be OK with him dying if he got to achieve that, and have someone love him and miss him. We want him to be happy. Also there have been so many references to Sansa's life not being like a song, or her thinking it was a song. I actually think that is one part of her life that WILL turn out that way, because life is NOT a song, but for that brief time with him, it was...type thing. If that makes sense. The gruffest non-knight bad-ass with a fucked up face, and a fucked up leg being the one part of her life like a song would be amazing.

I would love it if GRRM wrote a short story set in Future Westeros in which some naive young girl asks to hear the song of Lady Sansa and the Hound. :lol:

Well, he said that as he was trying to get Arya to put him out of his misery.

I know why he said it, and I felt rather sorry for him. It is still a pretty shitty thing to say about a girl you love.

But what about at the Eyrie? If she was so into the protection thing, why isn't she crushing on LF? He's "protected" her. He helped her escape Kings Landing. He's attractive, he's available. But she's just kinda squicked out about him. This may go into your "he's not a safe crush" theory, however.

Well, that and that she thinks he never lifted his little finger for her. Oh, and he was supposed to be in love with her mother. She got squicked when he said he was going to marry Lysa, and even more squicked after he murdered Lysa. LF also kidnapped her, lied to her, and is forcing kisses on her after she told him that she didn't want to kiss him. Sandor never lied to her and Sansa liked it when Sandor "kissed" her.

I also think that she is very much screwed up now when it comes to men and relationships after how much abuse she's suffered. I think the new lack of Loras/Joffrey crushes reflects that. She isn't even consciously aware of her crush on Sandor.

[LittleDragon]

She isn't crushing on Willas though, she's trying to fantasize about a normal, happy, married life and hoping that she will get a husband who loves her.

I'm wondering if we will ever see Willas? We have only heared about him. The interesting part, that Sansa accepted quite easily the fact his leg is lame. Good point for a possibly future :laugh: But anyway how Willas could complicate the situation Sansa is at the moment? does he know anything about her, i mean did the Queen of Thornes bothered on informing him?

[Starbird]

I say she doesn't see anyone else as attractive after they watched her being beaten without interceding or trying to comfort her in any way (maybe attractive is a better word than available to express my thoughts here?). Sandor did try to intercede on her behalf and she saw him as her protector. I also want to point out that she really begin to wish for his presence after he saved her from the riot, to the point where she thought that she wished Dontos was more like him.

I think this is important. She's been trapped in KL forever at this point, pinning her hopes on Dontos, when all he's given her is slobbery kisses and a hairnet. She's longing for a man of action, and she recognizes Sandor as one. More importantly, though, I think Sansa will become a woman of action. (She's not at this point but I think she's headed there. But she's starting to recognize the difference between a man who makes promises and a man who acts, and clearly values one over the other.) In this regard, I think she and Sandor will grow to have a lot in common. Now that Sandor's free of the Lannister yoke, he has to make decisions for himself. Sansa, if she's ever to escape LF, will have to do the same. In this regard, they're on the same trajectory. Right now, they're both off the grid. Once they start interacting with society at large again, their lives will literally hang in the balance of their decisions. Should they meet, realize this, and chat about it, they once again become a support for the other, and fulfill a need that the other has. That wouldn't be so twisted. It would be pretty healthy growth, actually.

[headtrip_honey]

I would love it if GRRM wrote a short story set in Future Westeros in which some naive young girl asks to hear the song of Lady Sansa and the Hound. :lol:

That would rock. ::sigh::

I know why he said it, and I felt rather sorry for him. It is still a pretty shitty thing to say about a girl you love.

Oh, definitely. I was just pointing out that it wasn't necessarily indicative of how he really felt. I do think you're right in that both Sandor and Sansa are completely fucked up regarding interpersonal relationships. But they're moving in opposite directions.

Sandor, through his interactions with the Stark girls, is becoming more aware that people can care for him, that he can be a good person. And hopefully his time on the QI will further that.

Sansa, on the other hand, is becoming more and more jaded. The prince she loved was a douchebag, and she was framed for his murder. The man who said he'd save her was an idiotic drunk. The only man who ever *really* tried to help her ran off after assaulting her at knifepoint. Now she's stuck with LF, and is becoming more and more aware of how everyone is lying all the time. (Does it amuse anyone else that Sansa so easily takes on the guise of Alayne, while Arya struggles to become "No One"? Nice parallel, there.)

I think it'd be kind of hilarious if they meet again and their roles have flipped. She's the bitter, jaded one and he's the one looking for the good in people. (He would never be as naive and idealistic as Sansa used to be, but you get my point.)

[brashcandy]

Still twisted, because I dispute the idea that this is a healthy adult relationship. Sandor hated that he left her there to be forced into marriage to Tyrion, but he expresses it by announcing that he should have raped and murdered her instead. :ack: Seriously twisted. And Sansa starts fantasizing about him, but instead of fantasizing in a normal way (as in, I wish he'd kissed me) decides to convince herself that her fantasies are reality. Twisted.

Both of these things are, IMO, meant to show just how fucked up these two people are and cast considerable doubt on their ability to buld healthy relationships with, well, anyone.

A twisted way for GRRM to show that both these characters are really into each other, but lack the cognitive (Sansa) or semantic (Sandor) skills to express them is how i see it. Actually, in thinking about it, I would dare to argue that Sansa and Sandor do have the potential for the healthiest adult relationship in Westeros and across the narrow seas :) They're both honest, direct individuals (at least with each other); they can both gain nothing but pleasure and satisfaction from each other (no cunning political alliances or family meddling); they have a history and know the deepest secrets about each other; they've both seen each other at their respective worst times.

But why? I love snarling, snapping, angry Sandor Clegane. His cynicism, his rage... it all goes so far towards making him a fantastic character. Without it, you'd just have a depressed alcoholic. Without his ferocity, I'd question whether Sansa would even be attracted to him still. My firm hope is that the man is resting up at the QI, waiting for his leg to heal up, and getting some anger management therapy and a little religion (no more daggers at Sansa's throat, dude!) and that he will soon be back, more ferocious, angrier, and snarling more than ever! (none of which makes him marriage material!)

The man will still be ferocious, just this time he'll bark before he bites :) Having a healthy relationship doesn't mean that he'll be suddenly stripped of what makes him Sandor. One of the things I really loved about him at KL and when he was with Arya was his ability to be still bad ass, but not cruel. He did need to lose a lot of the anger and hate for the world though, and this is a good thing. Sansa should be even more attracted to him. Let's remember how touched she was when she felt those tears. :blush:

[Alexia]

ETA: He also assumes she slept with Tyrion. Some of that disgust could show up in the bedroom, which would be a huge issue.

Oh, ouch. I missed seeing this ETA. I tend to assume that she will actually tell him that she is still a virgin before they make it into the bedroom or else he will end up hurting her.

***trying to engage in honorable work now, but still lurking...

And where is littlespider? I feel so let down -- she is supposed to be woobing this place up today!

[headtrip_honey]

Oh, ouch. I missed seeing this ETA. I tend to assume that she will actually tell him that she is still a virgin before they make it into the bedroom or else he will end up hurting her.

***trying to engage in honorable work now, but still lurking...

Well, that or he'll kill Tyrion for defiling his little bird. He may not hold it against her.

Maybe.

But yeah, when they next meet he'll probably be all surly making crass references to her marriage bed with Tyrioin. Sansa, with her new found confidence, will lay the smack down.

[Alexia]

Well, that or he'll kill Tyrion for defiling his little bird. He may not hold it against her.

Maybe.

But yeah, when they next meet he'll probably be all surly making crass references to her marriage bed with Tyrioin. Sansa, with her new found confidence, will lay the smack down.

To clarify: I hope not hurting her out of anger, but I would expect him to be pretty rough if he doesn't know she's a virgin and perhaps not the happiest of lovers if he thinks that Tyrion (who ruined his life) was with her. That could go really badly. :(

[headtrip_honey]

To clarify: I hope not hurting her out of anger, but I would expect him to be pretty rough if he doesn't know she's a virgin and perhaps not the happiest of lovers if he thinks that Tyrion (who ruined his life) was with her. That could go really badly. :(

Ah, I see. For the record, I also didn't mean he'd beat her or anything. I was envisioning angry sex. I would hope he'd still be gentle with her, regardless, since he's huge and she's...not.

I still lay money on him seriously messing Tyrion up if they meet before his impression of their marriage is corrected.

[brashcandy]

Well, that or he'll kill Tyrion for defiling his little bird. He may not hold it against her.

Maybe.

But yeah, when they next meet he'll probably be all surly making crass references to her marriage bed with Tyrioin. Sansa, with her new found confidence, will lay the smack down.

OH god, unless Sansa has to pretend to have really slept wth Tyrion to Sandor. Is this a possibility or am I watching too many soap operas?

[littlespider]

Quick post because I have a ton of other shit to do -- also might not have time for promised hard core woobing.

The cutting of Hound's lines and giving them to LF: this pissed me off. BUT, that moment would really have to be set up well for it to not come across to many viewers as OMG THIS GROSS GUY IS TOTES HITTING ON HER. Especially because Sophie Turner clearly is not 11 years old. It's striking that he has to kneel down to her in the book: he is clearly talking to a kid. And I don't think they had time in the episode to set this up the way it needed to be set up in order to have it not obviously look like he is hitting on her.

It's clear to me that they modified his character in the first season so that we just begin to see some decency emerge in the very last seconds that Sansa has in the last episode. They're also amping up LF's rather obvious creeper-factor. Think of it this way, if LF did not steal the Hound's lines, we would not have this glorious gif:

http://fuckyeahlittlefinger.tumblr.com/post/5395733166/vampirecircus-pedobaelish-sorry-it-had-to

I don't see anything sexy/romantic in the bloody lip-wiping scene in the series or books.

[Starbird]

Sandor, through his interactions with the Stark girls, is becoming more aware that people can care for him, that he can be a good person. And hopefully his time on the QI will further that.

Until Arya dropped him like a bag of dirt, anyway. It will be interesting to see how that effects him. (It shouldn't, since she's a kid and he's an adult, but this is Sandor so who knows?)

A twisted way for GRRM to show that both these characters are really into each other, but lack the cognitive (Sansa) or semantic (Sandor) skills to express them is how i see it. Actually, in thinking about it, I would dare to argue that Sansa and Sandor do have the potential for the healthiest adult relationship in Westeros and across the narrow seas :) They're both honest, direct individuals (at least with each other); they can both gain nothing but pleasure and satisfaction from each other (no cunning political alliances or family meddling); they have a history and know the deepest secrets about each other; they've both seen each other at their respective worst times.

The man will still be ferocious, just this time he'll bark before he bites :) Having a healthy relationship doesn't mean that he'll be suddenly stripped of what makes him Sandor. One of the things I really loved about him at KL and when he was with Arya was his ability to be still bad ass, but not cruel. He did need to lose a lot of the anger and hate for the world though, and this is a good thing. Sansa should be even more attracted to him. Let's remember how touched she was when she felt those tears. :blush:

Aww, I love this! Right on! Agreed on all points, especially the non-loss of badassness with Arya.

Oh, ouch. I missed seeing this ETA. I tend to assume that she will actually tell him that she is still a virgin before they make it into the bedroom or else he will end up hurting her.

***trying to engage in honorable work now, but still lurking...

And where is littlespider? I feel so let down -- she is supposed to be woobing this place up today!

I assume she will, too, but with George at the helm, she'll probably eat some plant that will shrivel her vocal cords, making such an explanation impossible.

I've been wondering where Littlespider is, too. She's probably working, which is more than I can say for myself.

[Alexia]

Ah, I see. For the record, I also didn't mean he'd beat her or anything. I was envisioning angry sex. I would hope he'd still be gentle with her, regardless, since he's huge and she's...not.

I still lay money on him seriously messing Tyrion up if they meet before his impression of their marriage is corrected.

He'll mess up Tyrion either way. :lol: Tyrion ruined his life, and he did marry Sansa either way. Sandor, unCat, and a choice few others are folks Tyrion should beg on bended knee that he never runs into again (unless he is on dragonback or something).

But yeah, angry sex is also what I had in mind...

[headtrip_honey]

OH god, unless Sansa has to pretend to have really slept wth Tyrion to Sandor. Is this a possibility or am I watching too many soap operas?

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WHY DID YOU SAY THAT. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE - IT'S WESTEROS AND IT'S THE INTERNET.

I bet GRRM is trolling these forums just looking for ways to mess with us! If this shows up in a book I am blaming YOU. :thumbsdown:

[Alexia]

They're also amping up LF's rather obvious creeper-factor.

That's what I thought too. In the books, LF doesn't interact with her again until he kidnaps her at Joffrey's wedding. So I think they wanted to get more creepy interaction between Sansa/LF, and that they are going to make San/San a more conventional courtly romance.

[headtrip_honey]

Until Arya dropped him like a bag of dirt, anyway. It will be interesting to see how that effects him. (It shouldn't, since she's a kid and he's an adult, but this is Sandor so who knows?)

Well with Arya I more meant that he can take care of other people. Sansa showed him kindness, but Arya showed him that he can look after someone else with no ulterior motive. Yes, he initially wanted to ransom her, but the Red Wedding effed that up, and he had no chance of making it up to the Eyrie. So he was pretty much just toting her around for shits and giggles by the end.

If my read of him and his mentality when Arya left him is right, I don't think he'll hold it against her. That was rock bottom for him. He felt like such a shit of a person. He'd probably think that she was right that he didn't deserve mercy.

I don't see Sandor holding grudges against little girls. I just can't see it.