[ADwD Spoilers] A Daenerys Character Arc Reread

[Alexia]

Two heads of the dragon will be Targaryens but the third doesn't have to be.

http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1261/

Thanks for linking this! I was looking for it during one of the "Tyrion is darned well NOT going to be a Targaryen even if he is destined for dragonriding!" debates and couldn't find it. ;)

[ARYa_Nym]

You have a point. I do think that a lesser warg could have an "affinity" for a dragon that would help to calm them, without quite going "all the way" as it were. So Sansa for example could use her powers to gentle Viserion, to make it easier for her to ride him the conventional way. I don't think she'd fully warg him.

Then again the type of thing I'm talking about hasnt' really been done afaik.

Dragons are extremely wild. I think only a strong warg would get them to submit. It's also dangerous. When Varamyr lost control over his beasts they tried to kill him because they hated what he was doing to them. The spearwife was actually successful. Hodor is gentle and imo feeble-minded so he's less likely to fight Bran. We know that he doesn't like it though.

Haggon and Varamyr didn't feel the same way over warging but Haggon was especially wary of warging animals that flew. I imagine a dragon would be the worst.

Sansa might be able to warg a dog since it's the easiest but I eliminate her and Rickon from warging a dragon. Arya is possible but I see Bran as more likely since he's stronger, more experienced, and is being trained. Bloodraven told him that he would fly. I'm not sure if he only meant by a raven. Jon will be a dragonrider anyway imo.

Thanks for linking this! I was looking for it during one of the "Tyrion is darned well NOT going to be a Targaryen even if he is destined for dragonriding!" debates and couldn't find it. ;)

Sure. It took me a while to find it myself. :thumbsup:

[Parwan]

Women, Magic, and Power

It is a remarkable fact, considering the male-dominated nature of Martin's world, that most, perhaps all, of the central players in the blood-and-fire aspect of magic are women.

When Jhogo returns from Qarth to Dany and her kalasar, he brings 3 people with him. There is Xaro Xhoan Daxos, a man from Qarth. There is Pyat Pree, a man from Qarth. And there is Quaithe, a woman of the Shadow. Possibly Quaithe only happened to be hanging around in Daxos and Pree's city when Dany's bloodrider arrived, but this doesn't seem all that likely. Maybe the fact that the one person from the shadowlands at this meeting just happens to be a woman is also a coincidence. Given normal gender distribution,that probability would be about 50% .

The Targaryens refer to themselves as dragons. One could imagine that a Targaryen male might have brought dragons back into the world, but that's not what took place, is it? The Lhazareen people probably have male healers. However, the one who gives Daenerys the concept that "only death can pay for life" is a female, a woman who has traveled to Asshai to learn healing arts and to become a maegi. This maegi dances with the dead, kills Dany's unborn child, and is then killed herself on the pyre that brings forth Viserion, Rhaegal, and Drogon. Awhile later, Quaithe of the Shadow appears. The "coincidences" are really piling up.

While Daenerys is watching a firemage in the streets of Astapor, the

masked lady appears again. She says that the man's powers have increased substantially and that this is because of Dany. Notice that the lady does not say, "because of the Targaryens" or even "because of dragons." The young queen is surprised and asks how she could cause such a thing. Quaithe answers, "You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?"

Ah yes, motherhood--not a skill that males are noted for. It does appear that to do this kind of work a woman is needed. A very big problem arises, however, when we try to specify what "this kind of work" is. It's certainly a difficult thing--as hard, say, as sex, and life, and ruling large numbers of people in the cities along Slaver's Bay. Dany will soon need more and better political advice. I think she could also use a different type of counseling, perhaps a sort of Merlin. Hmm, that sounds like another name I remember hearing in this story. A minor character who only appears briefly in the 4th book (though alluded to earlier), but he may yet play a significant role. He certainly has some interesting nicknames--the Mage, the mastiff. And he has a nice moniker for his colleagues--"the grey sheep."

Across the Narrow Sea, a very different strong woman is practicing magic. It is not clear when Melisandre came to Dragonstone. It does seem, though, that her power is increasing now (i.e. after the birth of the dragons). Lots of powers appear to be increasing, and some of these powers involve things much more important than tricks performed by firemages. Dany can't be blamed (or credited) for all of this. Indeed, she is only aware of a small amount of it. Nevertheless, she can't escape at least partial responsibility for it. This leads to other matters, which I will discuss later.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

A Clash of Kings, Daenerys II

Daenerys rides through the gates of Qarth with her new companions and her khalasaar. Everything about the city is huge, ornate, garish, and splendid. The people of Qarth are described as being tall and pale, and dressed in rich garb, so that they all seem to be wealthy lords and ladies to Dany. Dany worries she and her khalasaar seem barbaric.

As they pass through a bazaar her new companions approach. Xaro offers "the most beautiful of women" any gift she should wish. Qaithe counters that the mother of dragons has no need of baubles, and Pyat Pree says he shall give her the gift of knowledge, at his house of the undying. She tells them the only gift she wants is her father's throne, and the only palace the Red Keep.

After they are gone Jorah expresses mistrust of them all and says they should leave Qarth. Dany smiles and jests lightly with him in reply, but she worries that her knight may not respect her as a queen yet, though she feels safer knowing he is guarding her.

They move into Xaro's palace which is many times larger than Illyrio's. She sends her riders and women out to scout the city, emphasizing that they need to see Qarth for themselves, and not only the parts that Xaro wishes them to see. She sends Jorah to the docks for news of Westeros and he leaves after some convincing.

Meanwhile Dany bathes and considers her situation. She thinks she might have conquered Westeros with Drogo, but the Dothraki only know how to slaughter, rape, and plunder, and she has no wish to destroy King's Landing. Rather she dreams of a peaceful kingdom full of happy people. But she will have to first conquer. She thinks of her enemy Robert and his fearsome "dogs."

Cold-eyed Eddard Stark with his frozen heart, and the golden Lannisters, father and son. So rich, so powerful, and so treacherous. How could she hope to overthrow such men?

She realizes she cannot win with what she has now, and she knows that hoping the people of Westeros will rise is foolish dream Viserys had. She draws hope from the fact that the comet has brought her to Qarth - if the Gods wish her to take Westeros they will show her the way.

Later, Jorah returns with a man from the docks. He brings the news that Robert is dead. Joffery reigns, but his brothers are thought to be in rebellion, and Eddard Stark a traitor. Jorah scoffs at this, but Dany is unsurprised as it's similar to what happened after Drogo died. Dany sends the sailor away, telling him she'll give him a great gift once she takes back her father's throne.

Jorah scolds her, saying it was unwise to give away her plans but Dany tells him she is glad her tale will spread - now that the kingdoms are scattered, she can begin to assert her claim. Jorah argues that nothing's changed, that victory will not fall into her hands, and she needs more troops, money, ships, alliances... She calmly explains to him that she knows all that, that she is no fool.

I am not the frightened girl you met in Pentos. I have counted only 15 name days, true. But I am as old as the crones of the Dosh Khaleen, and as young as my dragons, Jorah. I have borne a child, burnt a khal, and crossed the red waste and the Dothraki Sea. Mine is the blood of the Dragon.

Dragons can be slain... but so can Dragonslayers.

Analysis

Not terribly eventful, world building mostly. Obviously finding out that Robert is dead is huge. Dany is focused on Westeros in this chapter to be sure. Mostly this chapter was about that revelation, learning a little about her three new companions, more of Dany leading her small group

effectively, and exploring the tensions in the Dany - Jorah relationship.

Man! Qarth is crazy-huge! It sounds like it might be the largest city in the world in fact? Thoughts? I suppose it is much larger than any city in Westeros, and must be larger than Pentos, or Dany wouldn't be so impressed. Is it bigger than Meereen or Astapor? Than Volantis? The description likens it to Rome in several ways.

Dany shows a lot of reflection in this chapter. In fact I was literally checking off a bunch of insults people throw at her as we went along.

Often critics say that Dany expects the 7 kingdoms just to bow down before her. She explicitly does not. Here, she assumes that Viserys was a fool for thinking that, and she'll have to fight.

Critics say that Dany will let the Dothraki freely rape and pillage - here she explicitly says this is not what she wants, because she knows she cannot lead with King's landing in ruins and the people hating her.

People often use the bit I quoted as evidence that Dany hates Eddard Stark and plans to murder all his children (?? :dunno:??). If you read the entire passage it is clear that she fears Stark. There is no vitriol, only dread. Also can I say, I really enjoy that description of Ned. :lol:

Critics say that Dany is too trusting. She doesn't trust any of these people and explicitly says this. She is super wary, especially of Xaro whose power she is under. She explicitly assumes that he is misleading her. She is outwardly friendly to her benefactor because not to be so would be extremely (maybe people are confused that Dany is such a good actress??)

Aaand this leads me to discuss Jorah again (must we?? fraid so). He's starting to be condescending, jealous, maybe a little possessive. He is assuming that Dany is an idiot and that she is missing all the subtext. Don't get me wrong, it's good to check that she's on board but he's starting from the assumption that she's a blind fool. Dany is super forebearing with him. She's incredibly sweet in fact (probably too physically affectionate considering his feelings for her), she very kindly corrects him, repeatedly, for his treating her like a slow child. I see Jorah's side... she is after all only 15, has said naive things to him in the past, and of course she's the most precious thing in the world to him twu wuv, blah blah... He seems to have forgotten his tact in Vaes Tolorro, though.

[brashcandy]

@MDIND - can we get all her critics to come read this chapter recap? :) Because honestly, they like Jorah, consistently underestimate the girl's intelligence, insight and humanity. I particularly like her observation on the Dothraki since now she's met up with the Khalasar at the end of ADWD, people simply assume she's gonna lead them straight back to conquer Westeros. Of course, the Dany at the end of ADWD has learnt some hard lessons on ruling, but I think her core principles remain, and she's not going to suddenly believe that pillaging and raping is ok for the greater good.

Her opinion of Eddard Stark is funny and significantly reveals how others view people based on the experience/knowledge they have of them. For Dany, Eddard is no hero, and I can't say she's to blame for this opinion. This is another one of the criticisms people throw at her too: Just how could she think of Eddard as one of the usurper's dogs! But in reality he was one of them, and Dany has no real reason to love him at this point. I expect her opinion to change when she hears that he actually resigned in protest of her proposed assassination (and of course the fuller story on the rebellion), but at this time, all he remains is the cold-eyed Ned with the frozen heart.

I like how Dany deals with Xaro and co. She isn't going to be seduced by pretty things or sweet words and makes a point of sticking to her end goal. I think this is a trait we see again in ADWD when she doesn't abandon Meereen for Quentyn's offer, neither does she jump at Xaro's offer of ships in exchange for her leaving the region.

And finally Jorah, what can we say about Jorah? He's certainly overbearingly overprotective, and probably still feeling guilty over his involvement with Varys. I think it's obvious he has Dany's best interests at heart, but his habit of underestimating her wasn't going to benefit their relationship. In light of this, perhaps it was best that Dany got rid of him at the end of ASOS. His constant attentions and advice already feel stifling here.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

And finally Jorah, what can we say about Jorah? He's certainly overbearingly overprotective, and probably still feeling guilty over his involvement with Varys. I think it's obvious he has Dany's best interests at heart, but his habit of underestimating her wasn't going to benefit their relationship. In light of this, perhaps it was best that Dany got rid of him at the end of ASOS. His constant attentions and advice already feel stifling here.

sigh... Yeah I still wish Dany had not sent him away but I completely understand why she did it. And it's not because he kissed her. However when you think about it, what would he have done in Meereen had he stayed? Would he have offered good advice or continued to condescend to her? It's possible to do both, I understand... Also he's super against going to Westeros here - I wonder if he would have advised her to return to Westeros yet? And of course, I imagine he would have been enraged at the Daario affair and Dany's marriage both. She probably would have had to send him away on some mission anyway to keep him from interfering (or killing someone).

Another thing I thought about, I wonder if (just after he's told Dany he belongs at her side and hes' the only man in the world worthy of her trust) if he went to the docks and sent Illyrio' another letter. We know from his confession he sent one from Qarth. Maybe it said that this would be the last, but that's just such a breach of trust... Oh Jorah...

[brashcandy]

Yeah Jorah in Meereen would have been a DISASTER :lol: Dany's attraction to Daario in the first place would have sent him over the edge. He probably would not have supported her locking up of the dragons either. As for the whole slavery issue, he obviously would have advised Dany to take Xaro's offer and get the hell out of Meereen, but again, this is not something Dany was willing to do at that time.

Jorah is a useful advisor, don't get me wrong, but I think what Dany would have needed from him in Meereen was just a sense of security that she seemed to feel around him more than anything else. I don't know if he could have offered any more useful advice on how to deal with the Harpies except to burn the pyramids and get the hell outta town.

Both Jorah and Dany are humbled in by their experiences in ADWD I think, and this is probably the perfect time to reconnect, but Jorah cannot continue to play this advisor/pseudo jealous boyfriend role. He needs to pick a position and stick with it.

[SeanF]

Had Jorah been present in Mereen, during ADWD, I imagine that Daario would have contracted a "sudden fatal case of sword-through-bowels."

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Had Jorah been present in Mereen, during ADWD, I imagine that Daario would have contracted a "sudden fatal case of sword-through-bowels."

Not to mention the subsequent performance of a headectomy on Ser Jorah. Guess it's better he went to find Tyrion for her!

[Tyrionthebest]

Had Jorah been present in Mereen, during ADWD, I imagine that Daario would have contracted a "sudden fatal case of sword-through-bowels."

I wouldn't be so sure . Say what you want about Daario but what I got from ADWD was that he is a pretty formidable warrior .

[Verboten]

Jorah would have contracted a sudden case of 'nude golden woman sprouting from his chest'.

[SeanF]

Daario certainly talks a good fight, but we've not seen him in action. We've seen that Jorah is pretty good, however.

[headtrip_honey]

Daario certainly talks a good fight, but we've not seen him in action. We've seen that Jorah is pretty good, however.

I would also lay money that Jorah would probably attack Daario in an emotional outburst, so Daario wouldn't be expecting it, ie, have time to respond in like manner.

[Cruella]

You don't become a leader of sellswords without being a good swordman. The talk alone won't impress these guys into following you into mortal danger.

[Alexia]

Does Daario wear armor? That seems to be a key distinction between the Westerosi and non, the wearing of armor. And if Daario doesn't wear armor, it doesn't matter how good of a swordsman he is. Jorah will destroy him.

Great recap -- I will try to get mine up tonight. I quite like this chapter and notably, Jorah's controlling behavior and advances towards Dany (in that strange combo of paternalistic and lecherous) begin pretty much as soon as Drogo dies. Its a shame because on one hand, Dany really did need him in Mereen IMO. He has good insights and experiences and was a good adviser with personal loyalty to her. On the other hand, his behavior is making him a liability and nullifying the benefits of his advice.

[mediocre cheese]

You don't become a leader of sellswords without being a good swordman. The talk alone won't impress this guys into following you into mortal danger.

Actually this is 100% wrong. Harry strickland is specifically described as not looking like a warrior, as having been the company paymaster before he was made leader, and he's fat and has blisters.

Plenty of the sellsword leaders are described as being old men, who probably wouldn't be elite swordsmen, brown ben plumm, the tattered prince ect. Ben Plumm specifically says he isn't bold, and that's why he is still alive.

Edit:

I don't really know who would win in combat between jorah and daario. I'd pick jorah just because I like the character more and he's won previous battles whereas all daario has done is kill the other two stormcrow leaders by stabbing them in the back. But it could be daario is a really great fighter whose combat prowess is just unseen. Being the head of a sellsword company isn't proof of that though, Harry strickland is specifically stated to be not a good fighter.

[SeanF]

Harry Strickland is good at negotiating contracts.

[R & R]

{off topic} As to the armour debate, Bronn vs. Ser Vardis Egen. {/ot}

[Alexia]

{off topic} As to the armour debate, Bronn vs. Ser Vardis Egen. {/ot}

There were a lot of other factors going into that, most especially that Vardis was old and a knight whereas Bronn was younger and a stone cold killer. We see Brandon Stark thinking it would be unfair to fight LF in full armor, for example.

[Tyrionthebest]

Actually this is 100% wrong. Harry strickland is specifically described as not looking like a warrior, as having been the company paymaster before he was made leader, and he's fat and has blisters.

Plenty of the sellsword leaders are described as being old men, who probably wouldn't be elite swordsmen, brown ben plumm, the tattered prince ect. Ben Plumm specifically says he isn't bold, and that's why he is still alive.

Edit:

I don't really know who would win in combat between jorah and daario. I'd pick jorah just because I like the character more and he's won previous battles whereas all daario has done is kill the other two stormcrow leaders by stabbing them in the back. But it could be daario is a really great fighter whose combat prowess is just unseen. Being the head of a sellsword company isn't proof of that though, Harry strickland is specifically stated to be not a good fighter.

Excuse me, but have you skipped some Dany chapters cause if you did I don't blame you but I thought Dany send him in a mission to kill Yunkai and he survived without taking great losses and he even got some of the Yunkai to join him .