Unpopular opinions III

[Alexia]

Ah boy, ok no. We cannot compare what Dany did to people like the Tickler, Tywin and Cersei. Dany is not trying to torture people to get them to cover up her crimes. Nor is she going about selecting random citizens to torture to find out information so that she can continue her exploitative measures. We actually know that Dany is trying to do the right thing in Meereen. She was in a desperate time, and this is why she resorted to this. It was not about protecting herself but her own people depending on her. This is what separates her from the Tywins of the world.

Huh? Tywin hanged Masha Heddle for owning the inn Tyrion was arrested in. Dany has the wineseller and his daughters tortured for owning the inn two of her men were poisoned in. What is the difference?

Dany's not the Tickler, that would be the Shavepate. Gregor didn't tickle the woman's daughter himself, after all.

I do feel very sorry for whoever those people are whose names the wineseller coughed up. They are most likely innocent, like the names the Blue Bard coughed up, for all the good that it will do them. :crying: Aren't Skahaz and some of her other men Mereenese? Here's to hoping they don't have any feuds going on.

As for Mirri Maz Duur - I'm constantly amazed that people feel sympathy for this woman. She was a victim, and then she made Dany into one too. Not cool, especially since Dany genuinely tried to help her.

By enslaving her and expecting her to be grateful for it? Oddly enough, Dany refuses to punish slaves who raped and murdered their masters -- but one who did damage to her, that one she has burnt to death.

[brashcandy]

Huh? Tywin hanged Masha Heddle for owning the inn Tyrion was arrested in. Dany has the wineseller and his daughters tortured for owning the inn two of her men were poisoned in. What is the difference?

The difference is very clear. One person is desperately trying to find out info from the only witnesses to the crime, the other person is a madman simply carrying out a vengeful act because his son - the son he doesn't even like - was arrested in the inn.

Dany's not the Tickler, that would be the Shavepate. Gregor didn't tickle the woman's daughter himself, after all.

I'm not even going to put Dany and Sandor's brother in the same sentence. Night and day situations.

By enslaving her and expecting her to be grateful for it?

No, by rescuing her and expecting her to be grateful for it. Mirri's city was destroyed IIRC. She would have either gone with the Khalasar or be left to rot. Perhaps Dany should have done just that.

[Sevumar]

Dany's not the Tickler, that would be the Shavepate. Gregor didn't tickle the woman's daughter himself, after all.

I do feel very sorry for whoever those people are whose names the wineseller coughed up. They are most likely innocent, like the names the Blue Bard coughed up, for all the good that it will do them. :crying: Aren't Skahaz and some of her other men Mereenese? Here's to hoping they don't have any feuds going on.

And this is what I don't get about Dany. In ASoS, she makes an interesting remark about Robert doing no justice as a monarch, yet when she finds herself in a difficult situation, she resorts to some pretty grisly methods herself. It's one thing to have high-minded ideals, but the test is whether you can live up to them when the going gets tough. That's where Dany falls down, IMO. It's not saying she can't learn better, but she's already messed up quite a bit.

In response to brashcandy, I'm amazed that you can't feel sympathy for Mirri Maz Duur. What she did was undoubtedly cruel, but Dany was pretty naive in thinking that she was saving MMD. Dany's intentions were good, but she didn't understand the repercussions of her actions. She didn't understand that the slaving and the sack of the Lhazareen village were for the sake of her campaign in Westeros.

[Alexia]

The difference is very clear. One person is desperately trying to find out info from the only witnesses to the crime, the other person is a madman simply carrying out a vengeful act because his son - the son he doesn't even like - was arrested in the inn.

And Dany wasn't carrying out a vengeful act because of the harpist? I didn't quote the whole thing, because it was most of a page and I was too lazy to do it, but she was very upset about the harpist (totally unrelated) and that is when she decides to show the wineseller and his daughters the dragon's mercy.

No, by rescuing her and expecting her to be grateful for it. Mirri's city was destroyed IIRC. She would have either gone with the Khalasar or be left to rot. Perhaps Dany should have done just that.

Actually, the plan was to take all those slaves (MMD included) to Slaver's Bay and sell them to fund the Dothraki invasion of Westeros. :rofl: Dany decided to personally enslave MMD instead, but no one was going to leave her "to rot."

[blackseer]

In that case...

Tywin was just for hanging Masha Heddle

Cersei was just for maiming the puppeteers and their audience

Gregor was just for having the smallfolk woman's daughter tickled

I am so glad that I don't live in a country where I can be tortured because I might be an eyewitness to a crime -- or worse yet, be forced to watch my daughters tortured. I am so glad that I don't come from a worldview that sees the torture of random bystanders and possible witnesses as justice.

Be thankfull that you didn't live in my country during the 60s. Not that I know about it, I wasn't alive yet, but the tortured stories aren't pretty.

[Alexia]

Be thankfull that you didn't live in my country during the 60s. Not that I know about it, I wasn't alive yet, but the tortured stories aren't pretty.

Are you from Argentina? Guatemala?

Regardless, I'll be thankful. I've heard some very gruesome stories about a variety of places.

[Rarm]

Here we go-

- I don't think Cat's treatment of Jon is fair no matter how you swing it. She should have taken her anger out on Ned not Jon. There's no excuse.

- I think Tommen might be Robert's. I know it's pretty impossible, and the seed is strong or whatever, but still. I think it would be an awesome twist. I just always thought that it was weird that all three of Cersei and Jaime's kids were perfectly healthy, which usually does not happen in cases of incest.

- Also, it's pretty unrealistic to me that apparently aside from craziness, Targs have no real incestuousness deformities despite interbreeding for centuries.

- I really like Ser Loras. I don't know if this is unpopular, but I have seen some negativity towards him. I think he's too arrogant, but he seems like an otherwise decent guy, and a good example of a knight.

- I think the whole Young Griff thing is a TERRIBLE addition to this story, and I kind of think it's just bad writing.

- I feel like Hodor is unappreciated.

- I like Jon Snow simply because he's likeable. He's never done anything to make me dislike him, so why should I?

[ZacharyB]

- I feel like Hodor is unappreciated.

By the fans? Because that is simply untrue :lol:

[JKeats]

Two quick points:

1) Stannis hasn't lost the war yet, so he remains a candidate for the throne. I've had this argument on these boards just recently, so I won't go into it all over again so soon. I take the view that there is and ought to be a law of succession beyond might makes right (with the caveat that might is a necessary prerequisite for legitimacy, necessary but not sufficient). Ergo, Stannis is king. But I'll say no more about that in this thread.

2) If there is anything to this Dothraki prophesy of the Stallion Who Rapes the World, MMD is a god damn boss! Raise a monument in her honor I say, preferably over the ruins of Vaes Dothrak.

[Sevumar]

- I don't think Cat's treatment of Jon is fair no matter how you swing it. She should have taken her anger out on Ned not Jon. There's no excuse.

I agree. There's no reason for her to take her feelings of betrayal out on Jon. She's the adult in the situation and he's a kid who will never know his mother, even though the truth is likely more complicated than that.

- Also, it's pretty unrealistic to me that apparently aside from craziness, Targs have no real incestuousness deformities despite interbreeding for centuries.

Yeah, Alexia mentioned the Hapsburgs earlier in the discussion. It would be an interesting nod to history if we ended up with a monarch who couldn't even chew his own food because of a deformed jaw.

- I think the whole Young Griff thing is a TERRIBLE addition to this story, and I kind of think it's just bad writing.

I felt this way going into ADWD, but I found the character growing on me. I hope he's a meaningful addition to the story.

[LadyMary]

If Robert was a usurper, then so was Aegon the Conquerer and all his descendants - basically every Targaryen in Westeros. But I don't believe it of Robert or of the Targaryens.

[Rarm]

By the fans? Because that is simply untrue :lol:

By Bran and co. I should have specified

[Alexia]

My unpopular opinion is that I rather like the addition of Young Griff and I'm eagerly waiting to see what happens with him.

I also really don't get Hodor or his popularity. :uhoh:

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Proud men might shout that they would sooner die free than live as slaves, but pride was cheap. When the steel struck the flint, such men were rare as dragon's teeth; elsewise the world would not have been so full of slaves. There has never been a slave who did not choose to be a slave, the dwarf reflected. Their choice may be between bondage and death, but the choice is always there.

I think Mirri Maz Duur is a hero of her people, actually, like a resistance fighter. She didn't choose to live on as an obedient slave or a compliant prisoner, instead, she risked her life to take out the leader of the invasion, to prevent the continuation of his bloody line, and to avenge her people. At the moment, I can't think of any other character who did anything as defiant and risky as she did.

[ZacharyB]

By Bran and co. I should have specified

Ah yes, well I can see that. Bran should appreciate him more since without him...he'd be immobile. But ...can you really appreciate someone who only says 'Hodor'?

My unpopular opinion is that I rather like the addition of Young Griff and I'm eagerly waiting to see what happens with him.

I also really don't get Hodor or his popularity. :uhoh:

I think it's because Hodor's essentially the only character in ASOIAF whose only purpose is comedic relief.

For example, picture a serious scenario.

Then picture big, bumbling Hodor crashing through the door and saying "Hodor."

I essentially think of him him as a giant Pokemon.

EDIT: Also, @YG (ADWD spoilers, I guess):

He seems like one big red herring to me at this point. Perhaps the largest and fastest moving red herring in all of ADWD. But I'm not really sure about it yet. Perhaps George really intends to put him on the Iron Throne. X_x

[brashcandy]

In response to brashcandy, I'm amazed that you can't feel sympathy for Mirri Maz Duur. What she did was undoubtedly cruel, but Dany was pretty naive in thinking that she was saving MMD. Dany's intentions were good, but she didn't understand the repercussions of her actions. She didn't understand that the slaving and the sack of the Lhazareen village were for the sake of her campaign in Westeros.

Did Dany ask for this entire enterprise in the first place or did it all start with Viserys? That she was married into a warlike culture to secure his throne is not her fault. Dany's child does become the Stallion that will mount the world or whatever, but the point is that she asked for none of this. She was pretty vocal in wanting the Dothraki to stop raping too, but was she supposed to stop them from pillaging as well. Some people think it was too much to ask of Cat - an adult - to direct her resentment at Ned - but suddenly Dany must be able to go against everything her husband represents and at the same time realise that Mirri Maz Duur didn't ask to be saved?

I find it absurd and unreasonable. If Dany is expected to see Mirri's point then Mirri could have seen Dany's instead of looking for vengeance.

[ICE CROW]

Well my unpopular opinion is, that old Nan needs a love scene. I mean come on, shes one of the oldest and most experienced women in Westeros :leer: .

Also that Mormont warged into his Crow, therefore supporting Jon Snow as Lord Commander. There is absolutely noting what so ever written anywhere to support this. But thats my crackpot hope, cus i like the old bear.

[Sevumar]

EDIT: Also, @YG (ADWD spoilers, I guess):

He seems like one big red herring to me at this point. Perhaps the largest and fastest moving red herring in all of ADWD. But I'm not really sure about it yet. Perhaps George really intends to put him on the Iron Throne. X_x

The speculation about Aegon's connection to the Blackfyre line would take him out of red herring status for me. It would connect a lot of dots encompassing various bits of background material we've been fed throughout the series and start to give us a window into the endgame of Varys and Illyrio.

[Alexia]

Dany was pressuring Drogo to invade the Seven Kingdoms on Rhaego's behalf after Drogo killed Viserys. Drogo finally decided to do it after the assassination attempt on her. She definitely asked Drogo to undertake the enterprise, was putting quite a lot of pressure on him in fact, and MMD entire life was ruined as a direct result.

[Sevumar]

Did Dany ask for this entire enterprise in the first place or did it all start with Viserys? That she was married into a warlike culture to secure his throne is not her fault. Dany's child does become the Stallion that will mount the world or whatever, but the point is that she asked for none of this. She was pretty vocal in wanting the Dothraki to stop raping too, but was she supposed to stop them from pillaging as well. Some people think it was too much to ask of Cat - an adult - to direct her resentment at Ned - but suddenly Dany must be able to go against everything her husband represents and at the same time realise that Mirri Maz Duur didn't ask to be saved?

I find it absurd and unreasonable. If Dany is expected to see Mirri's point then Mirri could have seen Dany's instead of looking for vengeance.

I've never said that her marriage was her fault. She certainly made the best of a lot of the situations she faced as Drogo's khaleesi. For me, book 1 is when she's at her best, when she's being vocal about her objections to the rapes and the slavery, but I note that she stops short of opposing the selling of all the slaves to finance her invasion of Westeros.

Have no doubts about it, she asks Jorah to help her convince the khal to invade Westeros when it becomes clear Drogo is turning east. She is lucky that she unknowingly shares a goal with Varys in this. I'm not sure what she could've accomplished on her own, but she seems to go silent on the issue of slavery (with a few small exceptions) pretty quickly once she understands that the money from the slaves will finance her bid for the Iron Throne.

I don't condone the killing of Dany's son, but I can certainly understand why Mirri Maz Duur did what she did, and if she really did prevent the Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy from coming to pass, then it's probably a net positive.