Unpopular opinions III

[lady crackhead]

- there are some people on this thread who think that's fine and like to twiddle with words like foetus and baby, but it's still reprehensible. ... I'm not denying that Mirri had a right to be angry at the Dothraki people, but what she did still amounts to murder.

OFO. Was the thing dany was carrying ever established as human before MMD? If you want to call that spawn inside her a dragon fetus, be my guest.

In my spirited debate on another thread where I argued that what Catelyn did to Jon was emotional/psychological abuse

....

To end with Jon- I think that if he had really continued on his journey to meet up with Robb to help out with the war effort, and Catelyn had shown him the same disdain and cruelty that she did in Bran's room, I strongly think he would have snapped. Maybe not killed her like Tyrion did Shae, but probably slapped her really really hard. It would have been the final insult that he could not take. And it is no great stretch to say that Catelyn would have viewed his presence there as an affront to her and Robb.

I just think that emotional abuse - whether subtle or direct - needs to be recognized as such and not minimized by arguments that someone doesn't owe another person recognition or support. Tywin had a strong feeling that Tyrion was not his, but that doesn't make his treatment of Tyrion any better.

Ugh. And more ugh. You should stick to your psychoanalysis on why the Hound wants to rape a little girl. Still needs more work. Every one of your amateur brain pickings get more more hilarious. When had Jon ever hit a woman when he's lost his temper? And youre in-depth analysis (with hypothesis confirming data !..heh) can be used on a wide variety of people you loathe, like Theon.

I just think that emotional abuse - whether subtle or direct - needs to be recognized as such and not minimized by arguments that someone doesn't owe another person recognition or support

Ah you mean like kidnapping a child and denying him any affection or warmth? Good to know you'll be excusing Theon of all his nefarious deeds from now on. Such a handy arbiter of justice, this belief.

That whole post reads as one big sob.

Looks like this hasn't been mentioned yet - Catelyn Stark is one of the most gullible characters who makes some of the emotional driven, stupidest, poorly thought plans in ASOIAF world and gets the honor of being the person who lights the fuse that starts the War which leads to the death and slaughter of thousands of innocent people.

Dude where have you been? That's been posted about 363,000 or so times give or take a hundred ever since the creation of this board. You are nowhere near an unpopular opinion. Unless it's mine; see below.

Unpopular Position:

Catelyn should have put her foot down and had Jon raised by Ned's relatives. Or a Karstark or something. What was Ned going to do? Beat her into submission?

[brashcandy]

Robert never even laid eyes on some of his bastards.

Was Jaime really supposed to raise his/Roberts children will being a kings-guardsman?

Here's my thinking - he was at KL for a sole purpose - be near to his sister Cersei. Being near to Cersei means that he had access to the children - he could have been a doting nuncle ;) but Jaime just was not interested in them, period. I think this qualifies as serious neglect and makes him just as guilty as Robert who may not have seen all his bastards but met at least a couple of them, and showed some delight in them.

Jaime's ability to not care about anyone besides himself and Cersei is what causes him to push Bran through the window, neglect the monster that was Joffrey and lose track of the mess happening with the other two children.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

You agreed that the killing of Rhaegar's children was awful. There you go. It's a necessary act if you want power for yourself. Tywin wanted his daughter to be a Queen and now she can. Robert hated Rhaegar and now his children are dead.

Westeros wasn't united before they came. They were the ones who made the Seven Kingdoms.

Just because Westeros wasn't united doesn't mean it was at war either. The Targaryen's initiated an unprovoked attack on the 7 Kingdoms. How many innocents were murdered so that their family member's could be seated as kings and queens?

[Arland]

Now, if we already bring Hitler into it all (it was done some pages ago) blaming Dany for making MMD her personal slave seems to be a bit similar as blaming Oscar Shindler for using jews in his factories (and saving them in the process). He profited greatly from Nazi campaign, IIRC was a party member and one of Hitler's campaign supporters and instigators, until he had a change of heart and become a person, seen by Holocaust survivals themselves as one of :"world saints" . I guess in eyes of wouldbe MMD defenders , if jews taken by him from concentration camps to serve as personal servant murdered his children or close to birth children he would be a hero?

Victimization explains a lot and is important mitigating factor, but I find a notion that someone horrible victimized can do no wrong strange.

[Raksha the Demon]

In my spirited debate on another thread where I argued that what Catelyn did to Jon was emotional/psychological abuse, and that I consider her a Queen bitch for it, not to mention her other foolish, rash decisions during the war, I really started to see that people really minimize the depth of Tyrion Lannister's suffering and why he may be acting in the way he does now.

Believe me, I'm guilty of this too. Before, I've thought "oh boo hoo, poor Tyrion, having to grow up in all that wealth and privilege, and now he dares to feel sorry for himself. Shut up already." But now, in arguing that what Jon suffered was emotional abuse, I see clearly that this was what Tyrion experienced too, perhaps even worse than Jon, although they experienced different forms of abuse, which could be considered equally bad. That these two are still able to go on to show kindness, understanding and sympathy to others, is perhaps quite remarkable. Look what a monster Ramsay Bolton is now, and Tyrion could just as easily have morphed into his sister Cersei.

I don't think that anyone denies that Tywin was a huge shit to his son Tyrion, but how many of us realise that this may be why Tyrion is acting the way he does, regarding his treatment of women, his sometimes amoral behaviour etc etc.

Now, IMO, Jon suffered from a form of emotional abuse called denying - denying has many features but the two I found most relevant to Jon's situation are listed below:

Denying a person's emotional needs, especially when they feel that need the most, and done with the intent of hurting, punishing or humiliating

Withholding is another form of denying. Withholding includes refusing to listen, refusing to communicate, and emotionally withdrawing as punishment. This is sometimes called the "silent treatment."

More on this can be found at http://eqi.org/eabuse1.htm

Now the first form of denial took place in Bran's bedroom when Jon came to say goodbye, but the second one was the most damaging in my opinion. Cat subjected Jon to a sustained "silent treatment" for 14 yrs that was meant to degrade him and serve to deny his existence. This kind of abusive resentment cannot be justified in my opinion, however, my larger point is on Tyrion so I'll move unto him.

Tyrion is obviously subjected to a more agressive form of abuse, largely emotional in nature, but also sexual as well (the Tysha incident). Throughout his life, Tywin looks down on Tyrion, sees him as deformed, inferior, lacking in some normal human way because of his dwarfism. His sister Cersei also taunts him as inferior and deformed, and he is keenly aware of how people pity him for his condition.

In order to deflect this, Tyrion uses his wit as an armour - it's really the only one he has, and he is also cunning and bright - two defences that he needs to combat a world that he is hypersensitive to. This hypersensitivity can be explained quite easily - when you are accustomed to being mistreated because people see you as subhuman from a little child, you necessarily grow up to believe that this is why ALL people resent you. He thinks that Sansa doesn't want him because he's a dwarf (without paying attention that it's because he's a Lannister more so than anything). Yet, rather than castigate Tyrion for his blindness, I think he deserves some sympathy too.

To draw on the link I provided above, it says that:

No one intends to be in an abusive relationship, but individuals who were verbally abused by a parent or other significant person often find themselves in similar situations as an adult. If a parent tended to define your experiences and emotions, and judge your behaviors, you may not have learned how to set your own standards, develop your own viewpoints and validate your own feeling and perceptions. Consequently, the controlling and defining stance taken by an emotional abuser may feel familiar or even conformable to you, although it is destructive.

Recipients of abuse often struggle with feelings of powerlessness, hurt, fear, and anger. Ironically abusers tend to struggle with these same feelings. Abusers are also likely to have been raised in emotionally abusive environments and they learn to be abusive as a way to cope with their own feelings of powerlessness, hurt , fear, and anger. Consequently, abusers may be attracted to people who see themselves as helpless or who have not learned to value their own feelings, perceptions, or viewpoints. This allows the abuser to feel more secure and in control, and avoid dealing with their own feelings, and self-perceptions.

I think these two paragraphs sum up a lot of what is going on in Tyrion's relationship with people and to women in particular. Tywin has largely "defined" Tyrion's "experiences and emotions" leading him to constantly think that people dislike him because he's a dwarf. And in the second paragraph we see clearly how Tyrion may have become an abuser himself and why he's attracted to prostitutes besides the easy availability of sex. Arguably, prostitutes have "not learnt to value their own feelings, perceptions or viewpoints", I mean the whole point of being a prostitute is subjugating all these things and concentrating on the client's pleasure alone. So Tyrion is necessarily attracted to these women because yes, he can control them, he can tell them what to do and how to act (as we see with Shae) and he can avoid dealing with his own sense of powerlessness and hurt.

So to sum up, when Shae makes that joke against Tyrion's manhood, by telling everyone how he liked to be called the "Giant of Lannister" it was the final straw. It can't be minimized as simply hurt pride or feeling humiliated, it has to be taken into the context of all the emotional abuse Tyrion has suffered throughout his life. That he doesn't realise that Shae is a victim too in this whole mess is doubly tragic and illustrates perfectly the vicious cycle that men like Tywin Lannister can set in motion.

To end with Jon- I think that if he had really continued on his journey to meet up with Robb to help out with the war effort, and Catelyn had shown him the same disdain and cruelty that she did in Bran's room, I strongly think he would have snapped. Maybe not killed her like Tyrion did Shae, but probably slapped her really really hard. It would have been the final insult that he could not take. And it is no great stretch to say that Catelyn would have viewed his presence there as an affront to her and Robb.

I just think that emotional abuse - whether subtle or direct - needs to be recognized as such and not minimized by arguments that someone doesn't owe another person recognition or support. Tywin had a strong feeling that Tyrion was not his, but that doesn't make his treatment of Tyrion any better.

Tyrion probably did have a difficult upbringing. He seems to have been alternately ignored, castigated and intimidated by Tywin and abused emotionally and physically by Cersei, who was vicious towards her little brother even when he was a helpless infant (if Oberyn's account was correct). His caretaker, at least the nurse he had as an infant, could not and did not protect him against Cersei.

Tyrion remembers that Jaime was always kind to him; and I think he says or remembers that his uncles were friendly to him, especially Gerion. But I doubt if Tyrion had much mothering; and that could be why he views most women through a sexual frame. He might not have snapped and murdered Tywin and Shae if he had enjoyed more maternal, or even loving female, care as a young and growing child. But I don't view that lack of affection as an excuse for his actions towards Shae and Tyrion and others. Tywin has a lot to answer for in general, and he could have been kinder to Tyrion, who was his son; it was ridiculous to blame him for Joanna's death.

I see Jon's upbringing as different. He's a little remote from women when he meets new ones, but he is not contemptuous or condescending; and seems to judge them as people, not walking sources of annoyance or pleasure. Although we don't have any anecdotes about baby or young Jon as a part of the Stark household, I would imagine that Ned made sure he had a nurse who gave Jon love and affection. Jon does not seem to feel a strong resentment of Catelyn in AGOT; at least not a very strong resentment; I have the feeling she just tried to ignore him or not interact with him as much as possible; and that young Jon got the message and stayed out of Catelyn's orbit as much as possible. But I don't see any signs that Jon was abused or did not have any loving female presence in his childhood. And I don't mean necessarily Old Nan...

[Nausicaä]

Catelyn should have put her foot down and had Jon raised by Ned's relatives. Or a Karstark or something. What was Ned going to do? Beat her into submission?

IA that it would have been good if Jon was raised elsewhere, but how could Cat do that? She asked for it, Ned refused. If she asked again (and she probably did), he would have refused again. It's not like she can just smuggle Jon out of the castle and send him to Karstarks, lol.

[Verboten]

Weren't they all agriculturalists until the introduction of the Horse, which encouraged the Plains Indians to chase after bison instead of farm corn as they had previously done?

Still I know very little about American history.

Actually I'm Canadian so Plains Indians is something I've never really heard of, hence my confusion over the term. I do know that you are correct about the horses in terms of some of the bands but several of the agriculturalists actually had no permanent fields, they would practice crop rotation but by planting in different areas (which were fairly close to one another). There was also a fairly sophisticated trading practice which allowed corn to be supplied to the Inuit by the people who grew it, probably in southern Ontario or Manitoba/Saskatchewan. But you already know more about Native Americans than most Americans.

[Sevumar]

IA that it would have been good if Jon was raised elsewhere, but how could Cat do that? She asked for it, Ned refused. If she asked again (and she probably did), he would have refused again. It's not like she can just smuggle Jon out of the castle and send him to Karstarks, lol.

I think we'd have to know more about the content of Ned's promise to know whether this would've been a viable option.

With what Bran sees at the heart tree in Winterfell in ADWD, there's some indication that Lyanna's wish was for Jon to be raised aside Ned's own children. Martin could easily be misdirecting us, but I think that's the best interpretation of that scene right now. I'm not saying that Ned and Catelyn couldn't have been better parents, they could've, but I'm pretty sure that sending Jon away was never an option for Eddard.

[brashcandy]

Tyrion probably did have a difficult upbringing. He seems to have been alternately ignored, castigated and intimidated by Tywin and abused emotionally and physically by Cersei, who was vicious towards her little brother even when he was a helpless infant (if Oberyn's account was correct). His caretaker, at least the nurse he had as an infant, could not and did not protect him against Cersei.

Tyrion remembers that Jaime was always kind to him; and I think he says or remembers that his uncles were friendly to him, especially Gerion. But I doubt if Tyrion had much mothering; and that could be why he views most women through a sexual frame. He might not have snapped and murdered Tywin and Shae if he had enjoyed more maternal, or even loving female, care as a young and growing child. But I don't view that lack of affection as an excuse for his actions towards Shae and Tyrion and others. Tywin has a lot to answer for in general, and he could have been kinder to Tyrion, who was his son; it was ridiculous to blame him for Joanna's death.

I see Jon's upbringing as different. He's a little remote from women when he meets new ones, but he is not contemptuous or condescending; and seems to judge them as people, not walking sources of annoyance or pleasure. Although we don't have any anecdotes about baby or young Jon as a part of the Stark household, I would imagine that Ned made sure he had a nurse who gave Jon love and affection. Jon does not seem to feel a strong resentment of Catelyn in AGOT; at least not a very strong resentment; I have the feeling she just tried to ignore him or not interact with him as much as possible; and that young Jon got the message and stayed out of Catelyn's orbit as much as possible. But I don't see any signs that Jon was abused or did not have any loving female presence in his childhood. And I don't mean necessarily Old Nan...

:) well Raksha, you know my feelings on the Jon thing - I think the silent treatment is abuse, made worse when it used against a child, but I've already argued this point long and hard, so Tyrion is my real focus here now.

As I see it, it's really not about trying to claim that Tyrion isn't responsible for what he does. Rather, I believe that we cannot just simply view his actions in a vacuum without considering the role Tywin played in his development. It's fine to think that he grew up with all the luxuries other people are denied, but he also suffers from a major inferiority complex, one that I think cripples his nteraction with people in general.

[ARYa_Nym]

Just because Westeros wasn't united doesn't mean it was at war either. The Targaryen's initiated an unprovoked attack on the 7 Kingdoms. How many innocents were murdered so that their family member's could be seated as kings and queens?

They created the nation of the Seven Kingdoms.

The War of Conquest was the campaign in which Aegon I conquered Westeros. Support by his two sisters, their dragons and a small army of soldiers the Targaryens submitted six of the Seven Kingdoms. Not all the continent had to be taken by violence. Some houses actively supported House Targaryen and others submitted voluntarily.

So what's your position on the War of the 5 Kings, jw? Look how the smallfolk in the Riverlands lives have been ruined because of Starks and Lannisters. Many of the Northerners haven't been able to prepare for the winter. How are the innocents going to fare then?

[Verboten]

*bullshit*

Yes a woman who hasn't slept for a week because her seven year old son is slowly dying after being thrown from a tower tells a living reminder of her husbands infidelity to get the fuck out of the room. What a bitch, how dare she take out her grief on someone else.

[lady crackhead]

IA that it would have been good if Jon was raised elsewhere, but how could Cat do that? She asked for it, Ned refused. If she asked again (and she probably did), he would have refused again. It's not like she can just smuggle Jon out of the castle and send him to Karstarks, lol.

What do vengeful harpy wives usually do? Deny him sex? Interfere with Jon when he was in the castle (ie, kick him out)? She could probably do a whole rash of unpleasant things to get the message across. What could Ned do about it? Send her back home? He wasnt going to beat her, he's too noble for that.

Ned & Cateyn...ugh. He had no right to put his sister's wishes over his wife's, and she didnt have to be so immature about it.

Actually I'm Canadian so Plains Indians is something I've never really heard of

We drove a lot of them off the plains & right up into Canada.

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes a woman who hasn't slept for a week because her seven year old son is slowly dying after being thrown from a tower tells a living reminder of her husbands infidelity to get the fuck out of the room. What a bitch, how dare she take out her grief on someone else.

Jon was already leaving the room. He stayed because she said his name.

[lady crackhead]

Yes a woman who hasn't slept for a week because her seven year old son is slowly dying after being thrown from a tower tells a living reminder of her husbands infidelity to get the fuck out of the room. What a bitch, how dare she take out her grief on someone else.

Now all you need to do is back this up by quoting a few pages from The Journal of Pop Psychology & Sleep Disorders :)

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

They created the nation of the Seven Kingdoms.

So what's your position on the War of the 5 Kings, jw? Look how the smallfolk in the Riverlands lives have been ruined because of Starks and Lannisters. Many of the Northerners haven't been able to prepare for the winter. How are the innocents going to fare then?

No one was able to prepare for winter because of the war, It is the way of war, period. Collateral damage, the small-folk are ALWAYS the losers in war. The Targ's shat on as many during their raids over the centuries. This time, with the Others on the horizon, everyone will lose until Azor Ahai returns and Spring emerges .

[Alexia]

Catelyn hate isn't an unpopular opinion. Catelyn is probably the single most despised character in the books, because she dares to not like the hero Jon.

[ARYa_Nym]

No one was able to prepare for winter because of the war, It is the way of war, period. Collateral damage, the small-folk are ALWAYS the losers in war. The Targ's shat on as many during their raids over the centuries.

The small folks are the innocents. Whether it's the Targaryens, Baratheons, Lannisters, or the Starks they are the ones who will suffer the most. It happens. Many innocents were killed because Robb, Stannis, Joffey, and Renly wanted to play at King and Queens.

[Tagganaro]

Regarding Tyrions upbringing- I can't even imagine how awful it was. We know from Oberyn that his sweet sister Cersei abused him physically as a baby, and probably emotionally his whole life based on their interactions.

And Tywin? Don't even get me started haha. Not only did he blame Tyrion for the only women he ever loved being killed, but additionally Tywin had an inherent obsession with not being laughed at, which he saw Tyrion as a constant reminder of this.

The only person who Tyrion ever seemed to be on good terms with was Jaime, you know, the same guy who was involved in convincing Tyrion that the only women who ever loved him was a whore and forcing him to watch and participate in her gangrape. I guess his Uncle Gerion was nice to him but he left when Tyrion was like 12 to never return again, and Kevan doesn't seem like he hates Tyrion that much. All we know of Tywin is that he completely hates Tyrion and left him in charge of the sewage system at Casterly Rock- If that isn't a message I don't know what is haha.

On the other hand, you really can't compare Jon's upbringing to Tyrion's. Yes, Catelyn was somewhat abusive towards Jon but it's clear that Ned loved him, and Jon had great loving relationships with everyone of his siblings save for Sansa I guess. And even with Catelyn, it doesn't seem like she ever went out of her way to yell at Jon. It was more like she just actively tried to avoid him and when she couldn't get out of his way the abuse would start.

And regarding Catelyn, I really don't blame her for being a bitch to Jon. Anything else would be saintlike behavior from her. Ned's the one who deserves to take the bullet for that one. Forcing a wife to have a constant reminder of her spouses perceived infidelity is pretty awful.

[Alexia]

Being in charge of a sewage system is actually a pretty good first job. My first job was spent smiling sweetly at rude people while escorting them to their tables, and cleaning bathrooms. I don't see the message there; I see a first job and an opportunity to prove oneself capable of taking on further responsibility.

Sansa loves Jon, by the by, and had a good relationship with him. She gave him advice on girls and they played together as children.

[Tagganaro]

Unpopular Opinion:

Robb is a total douchebag for not making peace with the Lannisters instead of continuing war with them and forcing his sister Sansa to undergo all types of abuse as a direct result. Once he captured Jaime, it should have been a simple choice to exchange Jaime for Sansa.