Unpopular opinions III

[Bad Dog]

@ Alexia:

And how Melisandre sees him in her fires as "first man, then wolf, then man again" is a very strong spoiler, really, and could point at both of that.

[Alexia]

Cat wasn't even supposed to be revived because she had already been dead for days. Thoros refused to do it. Mel is not Thoros though. I don't think she even knows that she can do that. Her POV showed to me at least that she doesn't really know what she's doing. Jon will be revived some other way that we haven't seen before.

Or the do you think he's dead comment could mean that he didn't even die. He's just in a coma and he will be kept in the ice cells. Cold preserves and the magic in the wall will restore his body.

But it is supposed to be a traditional kiss to send off the dead. She could easily do it accidentally, just as Thoros did.

[ARYa_Nym]

@ Alexia:

And how Melisandre sees him in her fires as "first man, then wolf, then man again" is a very strong spoiler, really, and could point at both of that.

Jon's last words were Ghost so we can assume that he warged into Ghost at the last moment. This saved his consciousness. Mel just doesn't know exactly what it meant because she's not good at interpreting her fires.

But it is supposed to be a traditional kiss to send off the dead. She could easily do it accidentally, just as Thoros did.

I would say that Bran's vision indicates that he won't be given the Kiss. He will spend a long time in the ice cells. & Mel is much more incompetent than Thoros. He can at least read the fires right.

[Bad Dog]

Do we know if Thoros is always right, though?

Oh, and yes, Jon is definitely

going into Ghost at his death

, Melisandre confirms that for us, the question is

how and in what condition he'll come back

.

[ARYa_Nym]

Do we know if Thoros is always right, though?

Oh, and yes, Jon is definitely

going into Ghost at his death

, Melisandre confirms that for us, the question is

how and in what condition he'll come back

.

We know that he's way better at interpreting it than she is. Neither are very good red priests though.

Moqorro seems much more able to me.

Anyways, we don't know how he's going to be revived. Mel is the only red priest at the wall and there's no Qyburn there either so I would say that it's unlikely that we will see Jon revived in the ways we've seen before. Mel said that the wall has special magic so that could be it but we really don't know.

[eyeheartsansa]

what GRRM said is not a flat out denial. He is being coy, and thoroughly relishes

the idea of fans debating Jon's status. Jon may very well warg into Ghost, but it seems that his consciousness would gradually fade until there is nothing left. I suspect him to last longer in Ghost than say, a random wolf, but based on the info we have, I don't know how much he can accomplish other than being somebody's uncannily intelligent pet direwolf.

[ARYa_Nym]

what GRRM said is not a flat out denial. He is being coy, and thoroughly relishes

the idea of fans debating Jon's status. Jon may very well warg into Ghost, but it seems that his consciousness would gradually fade until there is nothing left. I suspect him to last longer in Ghost than say, a random wolf, but based on the info we have, I don't know how much he can accomplish other than being somebody's uncannily intelligent pet direwolf.

The SSM I posted was from '08. The last time we really got a clue about Jon's parentage was from ASOS which came before that. We already know from Mel's fires that he will return to his body eventually. If he was a direwolf for the rest of the story or dead there would be no point for GRRM to eventually reveal his parentage. Another thing is if he's the PWWP or AA he can't be messed up like Beric or Cat because then if he was then I would say that the Others will probably be successful.

Oh, and the main reason why I don't think Stannis or Jon are dead is because they are both in Dany's vision. It wouldn't make sense for the Undying to tell her about them if they're dead already.

[Verboten]

My unpopular opinion is that I think Mel is a better Red Priest than any of the others.

Seriously Thoros doesn't even know how his powers work, Moqorro can only see the weather and the supremely fucking obvious and neither of them have been able to manipulate shadows, burn animals by thinking about it or make Tyrion look like Cersei. She's unable to see anything when she searches for Stannis because he's in a gigantic snowstorm and cannot be seen.

[Alexia]

On Mel:

Why does everyone think Mel is so bad, seriously? She is the only Red Priest who we get a POV of. I'd say that she reveals just how iffy their "arts" are, and that Thoros and Moqorro are both just as uncertain as she is. She seemed much more intimidating until we got her POV.

[ARYa_Nym]

I never thought that she was all-knowing like she seemed to be trying to come across as. Her thinking that Stannis was AA was a great indicator for me.

The Arya/Alys mistake wasn't even the worst for me it was the Bran and Bloodraven one. From that we get wild crackpot theories. No, she just misread the fires.

Aemon said that she and Stannis could be led down the wrong path. I don't quite subscribe to the Night's King theory though.

& those shadowbabies are seriously messing up Stannis. His health is deteriorating.

[Alexia]

Can you remind me of the Bran and Bloodraven one?

Agreed about the shadowbabies and their damage on Stannis, though.

[Queen Cersei I]

I'll start:

The Hound and Sansa would make a really nice couple

1. Most popular opinion. Ever.

Okay, exaggeration, but many, many people are "shipping" these two-- far from unpopular.

Catelyn and Ned got their children caught up in a shitstorm

2. Incredibly popular. But, though Ned's intelligence is more often denigrated, Cat is more commonly (and harshly) blamed for everything that befell her kids. Her intelligence is denigrated too, of course, but with Cat her so-called “stupidity” is generally part of the much larger, more comprehensive “Cat is an evil, stupid, heartless bitch” tirade.

Hoster Tully did his daughter Lysa a great injustice

3. The only genuine "unpopular" opinion of the bunch. Most people loathe Lysa, and, indeed, she is caricatured to the hilt, with no sympathy whatsoever shown for her specifically female problems. (Having premarital sex be a huge mark on one’s character; being sold off like an object to an extremely old partner; being treated as an object soiled; having extreme fertility troubles--and traumatic, repeated miscarriages—in a land where such issues determine a woman’s worth; not having control over one’s own body.)

The books go beyond just demonizing her, and beyond mocking and degrading her (all of which they do), they also take pains to go into something I'll call "no, but it was really just all her fault." In this little device, all of the possible excuses/ points of sympathy one could possibly have for this character, and systematically dismisses them; showing instead that everything bad that has befallen Lysa is actually because she’s a weak, useless bitch, and deserves no sympathy. (The same thing is done with Cersei in AFFC—for instance, maybe being an abused woman influenced her adult personality for the worse? Nope, she’s been evil all along--- a murderous sociopath since the age of nine.) This mainly happens with Lysa when, after being portrayed with no sensitivity, and much disgust, hatred, and malice for the first three books, she makes some comments apparently crafted to eliminate all audience sympathy with her. It was as though, unsatisfied with presenting her as repulsive and unsympathetic and letting readers draw their own conclusions, the book felt compelled to systematically eliminate all reasons for sympathizing with Lysa Tully.

As for Lysa’s dad, he is portrayed as a decent (if old- fashioned) patriarch who made a significant (but utterly understandable) mistake. Moment #200 of “hey, Lysa’s a total bitch,” occurred when she refused to forgive him on his deathbed and attend his funeral.

Tyrion Lannister is not that bad a man as I've seen him portrayed on the last thread

4. Is this a joke? Tyrion is one of the most widely praised, discussed, and beloved characters in the books. Of course, he has haters, just like every single other significant character. However, if pressed to pinpoint the single most popular character in these books, I would without hesitation point to Tyrion. (And I can think of several fan surveys to back this up-- such as one at the Tower of the Hand.)

As for him being “a nice guy after all” even after all he’s done…again, I’m going to have to ask, are you reading the same books I’m reading? Tyrion is beloved by countless readers and posters on these boards, and endlessly defended as not only a sympathetic, or potentially good man, but an all around great man, who’s where he is right now simply because of all the idiot/ jerks around him. Tyrion is the single most indulged character in these books—whenever he does something bad/ morally questionable, the author succeeds in keeping readers loving Tyrion by using a number of literary devices—demonizing (and dehumanizing) his victims; making his selfish motives “relatable;” assuring that many of Tyrion’s issues are brought up, so that reader sympathy remains with him; not giving any detail whatsoever to the suffering of his victims. As a result, people either seem to defend every single one of Tyrion’s actions, and see him as sort of a extra legal force for good; or, while admitting that Tyrion’s bad deeds are wrong, nonetheless do not hold them against him in any way whatsoever.

The only difference, imo, with Tyrion in the former “unpopular opinions” thread was that people were actually holding him accountable for his past deeds and—even more unusual—seing these deeds as indicative of great flaws in Tyrion’s morality. For instance, people are often so sympathetic about Tyrion’s search for love that they fail to see—or remark upon—how shallow he is; or the creepiness of how he wants a woman to fit into the mold of his “Tysha” ideal. (A quality that was there, it’s interesting to note, before Tysha’s gang rape.) Similarly, people are often so opposed to Cersei and in favor of Tyrion that they fail to see/ appreciate that some of the stuff he says about her is overtly sexual, misogynistic, and downright creepy. However, since comments are generally presented as “cool/ funny/ true”, perhaps it is unrealistic of me to expect viewers to be disapproving—or even mildly disconcerted—by them. (In several interviews, GRRM has noted that Tyrion “is a truth teller, and is always telling the truth, even when it gets him into trouble.” I guess Tyrion’s creepy, sexualized, occasionally violent comments to Cersei are supposed to be “true” or something.)

[ARYa_Nym]

Can you remind me of the Bran and Bloodraven one?

Agreed about the shadowbabies and their damage on Stannis, though.

When she was trying to find Stannis, "Stannis? she thought...but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled. The red priestess shuddered." I've seen this used as evidence to support the theory that Bloodraven and the COTF are working with the Others or that they will save Westeros from AA.

& I just remembered another reason why I don't like her. She's been burning weirwood trees. Now that we have learned about greenseers they would probably be useful.

[lyvyathan]

brashcandy, on 15 October 2011 - 10:11 AM, said: Hoster Tully did his daughter Lysa a great injustice

3. The only genuine "unpopular" opinion of the bunch. Most people loathe Lysa, and, indeed, she is caricatured to the hilt, with no sympathy whatsoever shown for her specifically female problems. (Having premarital sex be a huge mark on one’s character; being sold off like an object to an extremely old partner; being treated as an object soiled; having extreme fertility troubles--and traumatic, repeated miscarriages—in a land where such issues determine a woman’s worth; not having control over one’s own body.)

The books go beyond just demonizing her, and beyond mocking and degrading her (all of which they do), they also take pains to go into something I'll call "no, but it was really just all her fault." In this little device, all of the possible excuses/ points of sympathy one could possibly have for this character, and systematically dismisses them; showing instead that everything bad that has befallen Lysa is actually because she’s a weak, useless bitch, and deserves no sympathy. (The same thing is done with Cersei in AFFC—for instance, maybe being an abused woman influenced her adult personality for the worse? Nope, she’s been evil all along--- a murderous sociopath since the age of nine.) This mainly happens with Lysa when, after being portrayed with no sensitivity, and much disgust, hatred, and malice for the first three books, she makes some comments apparently crafted to eliminate all audience sympathy with her. It was as though, unsatisfied with presenting her as repulsive and unsympathetic and letting readers draw their own conclusions, the book felt compelled to systematically eliminate all reasons for sympathizing with Lysa Tully.

As for Lysa’s dad, he is portrayed as a decent (if old- fashioned) patriarch who made a significant (but utterly understandable) mistake. Moment #200 of “hey, Lysa’s a total bitch,” occurred when she refused to forgive him on his deathbed and attend his funeral.

I actually feel some sympathy for Lysa - the fact that she's not of sound mind - tricked into have an abortion at a young age by her dad, married off to some an old geezer, has numerous miscarriages (and babies which died early) which would have physically, emotionally and mentally have affected her - (childbirth isn't easy, you know and was about 1000% more dangerous for women in the medieval ages, virtually 1/4 of mothers died during childbirth in those days - plus Lysa probably received no post-natal counseling) and then gives birth to a very sick boy who is prone to fits... ah, no wonder the woman went barkers.

So in short she does have my sympathy. Doesn't excuse her for not handling herself very well or recognizing that she's falling apart and trying to seek proper guidance and counsel etc.. But the hotline number for Depression wasn't readily available in those days. So, yeah, I have sympathy for Lysa, its not like she went and incurred the wrath of the Lannister on a whim, and started the war, or helped a major hostage escape based on the worst reasoning since Maekar's son drank Wildfire to turn himself into a dragon.

As for Lysa’s dad, he is portrayed as a decent (if old- fashioned) patriarch who made a significant (but utterly understandable) mistake. Moment #200 of “hey, Lysa’s a total bitch,” occurred when she refused to forgive him on his deathbed and attend his funeral.

I wouldn't count that bitter act very much against Lysa's character. First, there's a war on and she's got a sick son, the mountain vale is not safe to travel on, hey she's crazy but not that stupid, so its pretty damn hard to go visit dying dad, esp. when he's backed the losing side. Plus, if he was the bustard father who married me off in my prime to some old fart who couldn't squirt better baby juice, I'd also wonder whether I could put off my appointment with my hairdresser to visit the man.

When you hit rock bottom, the only way is up. I think Littlefinger told her that :D

[JKeats]

As for him being “a nice guy after all” even after all he’s done…again, I’m going to have to ask, are you reading the same books I’m reading? Tyrion is beloved by countless readers and posters on these boards, and endlessly defended as not only a sympathetic, or potentially good man, but an all around great man, who’s where he is right now simply because of all the idiot/ jerks around him. Tyrion is the single most indulged character in these books—whenever he does something bad/ morally questionable, the author succeeds in keeping readers loving Tyrion by using a number of literary devices—demonizing (and dehumanizing) his victims; making his selfish motives “relatable;” assuring that many of Tyrion’s issues are brought up, so that reader sympathy remains with him; not giving any detail whatsoever to the suffering of his victims. As a result, people either seem to defend every single one of Tyrion’s actions, and see him as sort of a extra legal force for good; or, while admitting that Tyrion’s bad deeds are wrong, nonetheless do not hold them against him in any way whatsoever.

The only difference, imo, with Tyrion in the former “unpopular opinions” thread was that people were actually holding him accountable for his past deeds and—even more unusual—seing these deeds as indicative of great flaws in Tyrion’s morality. For instance, people are often so sympathetic about Tyrion’s search for love that they fail to see—or remark upon—how shallow he is; or the creepiness of how he wants a woman to fit into the mold of his “Tysha” ideal. (A quality that was there, it’s interesting to note, before Tysha’s gang rape.) Similarly, people are often so opposed to Cersei and in favor of Tyrion that they fail to see/ appreciate that some of the stuff he says about her is overtly sexual, misogynistic, and downright creepy. However, since comments are generally presented as “cool/ funny/ true”, perhaps it is unrealistic of me to expect viewers to be disapproving—or even mildly disconcerted—by them. (In several interviews, GRRM has noted that Tyrion “is a truth teller, and is always telling the truth, even when it gets him into trouble.” I guess Tyrion’s creepy, sexualized, occasionally violent comments to Cersei are supposed to be “true” or something.)

Fans love Tyrion because he's funny, intelligent, psychologically complex, keenly observant, and possesses a core of empathy and compassion that endures even when he is at his lowest point in ADWD. And because there's a poignancy to his most earnest longing being for something he can never have: love.

I'd also contend that his supposed misogyny has been exaggerated. His relations with women are not completely healthy, but that's to be expected given his life. But he very far from being a true misogynist like Khal Drogo or Victarion Greyjoy. Actually he can be quite tender when it comes to women.

He hates Cersei; that's fine. She deserves it. I'll say that again. Cersei is an enormous bitch and deserves every ounce of hate sent her way. That Tyrion loathes her makes me like him all the more. But hating that horrible human being doesn't equal misogyny.

[kephv]

When she was trying to find Stannis, "Stannis? she thought...but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled. The red priestess shuddered." I've seen this used as evidence to support the theory that Bloodraven and the COTF are working with the Others or that they will save Westeros from AA.

& I just remembered another reason why I don't like her. She's been burning weirwood trees. Now that we have learned about greenseers they would probably be useful.

I agree. Her main problem is she sees everything in the world in terms of black and white.

Like when she sees bloodraven and Bran as weirwoods and immediately thinks their evil.

Her talk with Davos in his cell in ASoS highlighted that the best, and contrasted really well with the Reeds views, which were considerably more mature in a way than Mel's even though they're much younger.

[ARYa_Nym]

Agreed. I feel like she thinks that either you're with R'hllor or you're with the Great Other.

[lyvyathan]

Similarly, people are often so opposed to Cersei and in favor of Tyrion that they fail to see/ appreciate that some of the stuff he says about her is overtly sexual, misogynistic, and downright creepy. However, since comments are generally presented as “cool/ funny/ true”, perhaps it is unrealistic of me to expect viewers to be disapproving—or even mildly disconcerted—by them. (In several interviews, GRRM has noted that Tyrion “is a truth teller, and is always telling the truth, even when it gets him into trouble.” I guess Tyrion’s creepy, sexualized, occasionally violent comments to Cersei are supposed to be “true” or something.)

Ah, "creepy"? Wouldn't you also be pretty bitter and angry at a sibling - who has it all - who treats you like absolute crap. Cersei was abusing Tyrion ever since he was in the cradle for crying out loud.

Why would Tyrion think of Cersei with kind, warm, fuzzy thoughts? She was doing much more than treating him with cold, indifference.

Besides Tyrion, prior to AFOC, seemed to get along well very well with Jamie, and Cersei's two younger children. I don't recall him thinking of nasty :creepy, sexualized, occasionally violent comments" but then again I'm not the sort of person who thinks that being cold and showing mild resentment towards your husband's child who is living in the same home as you since he was a baby for 14 years - is acceptable behavior; not that I'm suggesting that you are that sort of person of course.

[Jerry Cornelius]

3. The only genuine "unpopular" opinion of the bunch. Most people loathe Lysa, and, indeed, she is caricatured to the hilt, with no sympathy whatsoever shown for her specifically female problems. (Having premarital sex be a huge mark on one’s character; being sold off like an object to an extremely old partner; being treated as an object soiled; having extreme fertility troubles--and traumatic, repeated miscarriages—in a land where such issues determine a woman’s worth; not having control over one’s own body.)

I was under the impression that Martin included those revelations precisely to instill some level of sympathy for her character--to explain that she was less a malevolent person and more a tragically manipulated and broken one, even while revealing the heinous extent of her actions. I know that though I was frustrated and disgusted with her actions, I still felt very sorry for her all the same. Readers' emotional responses to a character, as well as their overall interpreations of them, don't have to be an either/or choice between two extremes (sometimes a character can even encompass both over the course of their arc), and can cover a broad range of seemingly conflicting opinions and feelings; the same principle applies to a writer's intent when developing his or her characters.

As for Lysa’s dad, he is portrayed as a decent (if old- fashioned) patriarch who made a significant (but utterly understandable) mistake. Moment #200 of “hey, Lysa’s a total bitch,” occurred when she refused to forgive him on his deathbed and attend his funeral.

His significant mistake was portrayed as a horrible, traumatic event that permanantly scarred Lysa and haunted him with overwhelming guilt during his final days. Like some other characters in the series, he started off as a seemingly irreproachable man who was then revealed to be much more flawed than his reputation, or the assessment of others, suggested. His reasons were "understandable"--he's not a Gregor or Euron--but like many of the other men who did terrible things to maintain the honor or power of their names and houses, his actions still resulted in a lot of suffering that could have been avoided.

[Queen Cersei I]

Keats, your post pretty much repeats what I’ve already heard about Tyrion countless times on these boards. (In, interestingly, almost the exact same language expressions I’ve heard used before. Maybe my minds playing tricks on me, but I could swear that I read this exact same post—same ideas, same paragraph order, same means of expression, same words and phrases used—about a year back when I was still a lurker on these boards.) At any rate, you echo the same feelings held by many, so no doubt the following post will proceed to earn numerous “like” ratings.

Honestly, in the end, your posting seems to support my argument (regarding the tendency of readers to defend Tyrion’s every action, never fail to sympathize with him, and argue that he is good, no matter what he does), rather than refute it in any way. (Or add anything new to the kettle.) Generally, given the common nature of your post and its sentiments, I’d pass it by in silence. However, I felt compelled to comment on the following:

He hates Cersei; that's fine. She deserves it. I'll say that again. Cersei is an enormous bitch and deserves every ounce of hate sent her way. That Tyrion loathes her makes me like him all the more. But hating that horrible human being doesn't equal misogyny.

Okay…. But Tyrion’s comments about Cersei—frequently gender specific, and disturbingly often sexually themed—have everything to do with her being a woman.

In ADWD alone:

He comments (to Illario) that if he is going to chop off his head, he should chop off Cersei’s vagina as well, “the best part of her for the best part of me.” I know… hilarious and awesome! And totally necessary, because Cersei is “an enormous bitch.” Or, at least, this is how it is presented. And no doubt 99 percent of viewers accept this as true.

However, I couldn’t’ help but notice that what Tyrion says here is a. Undeniably gender themed; b. sexually explicit, and intended to humiliate Cersei on a specifically sexual level; and c. not something that most guys WOULD THINK ABOUT THEIR OWN SISTER.

Next, later in the story, Tyrion notes how he desires “to murder and rape my sister” to the widow of the Waterfront. (Who laughs/ approves. )

No doubt “Tyrion didn’t mean it” “he was only joking,” or, as you seem to imply in your post, “Cersei deserves everything you can throw at her.” (Including rape?) Whether or not a Cersei rape is something you (and others) desire to see, you must admit that wanting to murder and rape one’s sister (no matter how evil said sister is) IS something that is creepy and misogynistic. And something that has EVERTHING to do with Cersei being a female, and nothing to do with her being evil in general. No doubt you will claim Tyrion didn’t mean it, etc. However, the fact that he even said it speaks volumes. (Perhaps as much about the attitudes of the text itself as those of Tyrion.) And on some level, I do believe Tyrion kind of did mean it.

I know, I know—such comments are “hilarious and awesome,” and why you love Tyrion. And yet I’d argue that someone looking at it from a feminist perspective—and, it must be said, perhaps someone who does not identify with Tyrion to the extent that you appear to—might see things just a little bit differently.

If anything, your praise of Tyrion, and championship of his attitude towards—and everything he’s said and done to Cersei—in general pretty much proves my point. My point was that, despite the gender specific, actually incredibly offensive nature of half the stuff Tyrion says to / thinks about Cersei, such sentiments are presented by the text itself as hilarious/ correct. Your argument (as well as, it must be said, your general post) more or less proves my point.