Unpopular opinions III

[djhdjh]

Meh, isn't the same thing as handing the kingdom over to the Lannisters. Also in that situation just because we know Ned's an honourable man doesn't mean an honourable man will follow him. An honourable man looking at that situation might see Ned making a power play against the legitimate monarch as things stand at the time and given how ridiculous the incest sounds without knowing it's true.

PS: Could this get much more nit picky on my part. I believe we're arguing over the exact reasons and extent that Robert was a disaster!!

[mediocre cheese]

Unpopular opinion: Robert is basically a good guy. There's no cruelty in him or hypocrisy or deceit. He just follows his natural instincts the whole time, and generally they are good. His reaction to the Mad King's atrocities was natural - and it was right. His reaction to Joff's sick torture of an animal was basically sound, and it's better for a boy to know from his reaction just how sick what he did was than continue down that path. With both Aerys and Joffrey, he saw a monster and knew it for what it was. Cersei is the worst possible match for him since she's always twisting what he says around, trying to make wrong right, and deliberately provoke him. He has no idea how to handle it, which is why he fails to control his anger and hits her. He's weak, of course, because he lets himself go, but it would never have happened if he'd been with a woman with a heart.

There is no cruelty in a man who is showed the bodies of two murdered infants and says "I see no children only dragonspawn". Good to know.

Unpopular opinion I have:

Aerys "atrocities" are no worse than what the rebels did during the war (killing children, destroying whole villages) and the reason readers view him as evil and not say Hoster Tully as evil is because the readers view the lives of aristocratic starks as inherently more valuable than any others. Which is stupid, because they aren't. Oh and Robert didn't rebel because of the mad king's atrocities, he rebelled because aerys wanted his head and rhaegar took his future wife.

[Alexia]

Meh, isn't the same thing as handing the kingdom over to the Lannisters.

Giving them tons of political and military power in the city, and then ensuring that independents in the city are all corrupt and easy to buy off? Despite the objections of both Stannis and Jon Arryn?

Thanks to the set up Robert put in place, Cersei could easily have bought the goldcloaks and had them clap Robert into a black cell while installing Joffrey as king because there were no loyal Baratheon forces in the city. The best he had was the KG.

Jaime Lannister -- nuff said.

Ser Boros -- Lannister man.

Ser Meryn (?) -- Lannister man

Ser Mandon Moore -- Vale man

Ser Preston -- unsure

Ser Barristan -- loyal

Ser Arys -- unsure

That is three out of seven KG who are Lannisters or Lannister men. Possibly more. Who had personal loyalty to Robert? His brothers, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark. Who had personal loyalty to Cersei? Who could be bought?

[Errant Bard]

Robert didn't rebel because of the mad king's atrocities, he rebelled because aerys wanted his head and rhaegar took his future wife.

Actually, Robert didn't rebel: it was Jon Arryn that did it when Aerys asked him for Ned and Robert's heads. Not that Ned and Robert were uncooperative, but they didn't give the impetus, Jon Arryn was the instigator (and the tactician, too, considering the Lysa marriage)

(who am I missing?)

Aaron Satangar?

[Alexia]

Aaron Satangar?

Was he KG? I thought he died in the riot and the only KG who died in the riot was Ser Preston? I also thought he was the castle master-at-arms...

[djhdjh]

Giving them tons of political and military power in the city, and then ensuring that independents in the city are all corrupt and easy to buy off? Despite the objections of both Stannis and Jon Arryn?

Thanks to the set up Robert put in place, Cersei could easily have bought the goldcloaks and had them clap Robert into a black cell while installing Joffrey as king because there were no loyal Baratheon forces in the city. The best he had was the KG.

Jaime Lannister -- nuff said.

Ser Boros -- Lannister man.

Ser Meryn (?) -- Lannister man

Ser Mandon Moore -- Vale man

Ser Preston -- unsure

Ser Barristan -- loyal

(who am I missing?)

That is three out of seven KG who are Lannisters or Lannister men. Possibly more. Who had personal loyalty to Robert? His brothers, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark. Who had personal loyalty to Cersei? Who could be bought?

You seem to agree with me that the Gold Cloaks would have settled the issue and you also seem to agree (again based on the fact that you ignored the comment) that the man buying them originally wanted to have them going against the Lannisters - and in this situation as I've explained it's actually to Ned's benefit they can be bought because if they were honourable they'd stick by the rightful monarch. So all it would have taken was a word and the Lannisters would have been neutered. That doesn't constitute handing them the kingdom on his death. Sure he didn't exactly set out to stop them but why should he have to given the situation as he sees it. The key point in all of this is actually LF's motivations. Damn he's good.

As for while he was still alive his Small Council was led by his father figure Jon Arryn and the two other main players while certainly not loyal to him were hardly Lannister puppets either (LF and Varys). Sure if the Lannisters wanted to for some bizarre reason launch a military coup they might have been able to but they weren't going to and the political power didn't rest with them.

His handling of the Lannisters wasn't very astute as with everything Robert did and it didn't help matters. You set the bar high saying handed the kingdom over. It's clear that he didn't hand the kingdom over as I think there was a damn good chance to stop them firstly in KL and then for Renly afterwards (albeit that wasn't anything to do with Robert but neither does it suggest he handed them the kingdom).

As I said above, the real question is what LF's motivation was because that's the deciding factor as to whether he did hand the kingdom over. I think it's ambiguous but I lean towards him genuinely wanting to work with Ned. That's certainly the sense I got because it makes Ned's cock up more tragic because he had victory in his grasp and willingly let it go rather than never having it in the first place. It also fits more with my view of LF (again something for debate).

[oba]

Was he KG? I thought he died in the riot and the only KG who died in the riot was Ser Preston? I also thought he was the castle master-at-arms...

You're right. Santagar was the master-at-arms, not a member of the Kingsguard. You were missing Arys Oakheart.

[Errant Bard]

Was he KG? I thought he died in the riot and the only KG who died in the riot was Ser Preston? I also thought he was the castle master-at-arms...

Oh, yeah, I'm confusing things here.

You're missing Arys Oakheart

[Alexia]

You're missing Arys Oakheart

Aha! Thank you. *edits*

Now who were Ser Arys and Ser Preston loyal to? Does anyone else know anything about them?

[oba]

Aha! Thank you. *edits*

Now who were Ser Arys and Ser Preston loyal to? Does anyone else know anything about them?

From his POV in Book 4, Ser Arys seemed to be a pretty genuine guy or at the very least not in the pocket of the Lannisters.

We don't really learn anything about Preston Greenfield, but, for what it's worth, House Greenfield is sworn to Casterly Rock.

[Verboten]

Arys seems to be a sort of young Barristan, he's loyal to his vows but struggles with them especially when Joffrey ordered him to beat Sansa. He was the only one other than Sandor to actually object, but he hit her in the end and felt massive guilt over it. I like him mainly because Sansa seems to think of him as better than his 'brothers' and he's the only one to actually show her kindness without then trying to rape her.

[1234567]

Given

Varys' comments in the Epilogue of ADWD, I suspect he had also been engineering the Lannister take over for some time too. Cersei even says that when she first arrived she thought he was her friend. Varys' may have been setting Cersei up for power for years, knowing what a dog's breakfast she would make of it and how it would lead to war.

it also wouldn't surprise me if Varys was the one to point out the Jaime / Cersei relationship to Jon Arryn.

[mediocre cheese]

Actually, Robert didn't rebel: it was Jon Arryn that did it when Aerys asked him for Ned and Robert's heads. Not that Ned and Robert were uncooperative, but they didn't give the impetus, Jon Arryn was the instigator (and the tactician, too, considering the Lysa marriage)

Yeah, good point. In the end it seems like Jon arryn makes the decisions and Robert goes along with them. As for Robert being a good guy, I'll note that the main things where Robert refuses to follow Jon arryn on are always terrible, he allows corruption in spite of arryn urging him otherwise, he wants to murder daenerys in spite of Arryn telling him otherwise ect.

Basically his instincts seem to me be consistently bad, and every positive aspect of his rule can be attributed to having a wise hand.

[Errant Bard]

Aha! Thank you. *edits*

Now who were Ser Arys and Ser Preston loyal to? Does anyone else know anything about them?

Considering we have Arys PoV's, I'm pretty certain he, at least, is loyal to his duty as stated in his oath, that is, to the king. (well, up until he decided to be loyal to his dick, poor guy)

As from where he hails from, he claims Oakhearts have been killing Daynes for as long as Daynes have been killing Oakhearts, so southern Reach seems correct. Not a Lannister man.

Greenfield seems to have been more or less the same. (ad maybe it was the reason he died, too)

[Alexia]

We don't really learn anything about Preston Greenfield, but, for what it's worth, House Greenfield is sworn to Casterly Rock.

I think that just gave the Lannisters the majority of the KG. :lol: But Robert didn't serve the realm up to them on a silver platter.

Arys seems like a nice guy, all told. But Robert being able to count on three out of the seven isn't really very good since they are supposed to guard him. And I'm not sure how honorable or reliable a man Ser Mandon is -- given the attempt to murder Tyrion during the battle.

Greenfield seems to have been more or less the same. (ad maybe it was the reason he died, too)

I don't know how it could have been. He died a victim of rioting because he rode back to try to help the High Septon.

Actually an interesting question -- where the loyalties of the KG lie.

[Errant Bard]

I think that just gave the Lannisters the majority of the KG. :lol: But Robert didn't serve the realm up to them on a silver platter.

Hmm, but they are the family of his wife. Which guy doesn't serve anything on a platter to his in-laws?

[Alexia]

Hmm, but they are the family of his wife. Which guy doesn't serve anything on a platter to his in-laws?

A king whose brother-in-law killed the last king, and father-in-law killed the last king's grandchildren?

Anything is a strong term. Naturally the Lannisters would expect to benefit from Cersei's marriage. The problem is how he just steps aside and lets Cersei amass power on behalf of her family -- given the above -- without trying to maintain any of his own. Robert makes the KG appointments, and puts four Lannister men on the KG. He agrees to have Sandor Clegane (a Lannister man, and not even a knight) guard his heir. He accepts all the Lannister squires that Cersei shoves at him. Ned says that he's surrounded by Lannisters all the time.

As I see it, he had zero interest in any part of ruling (other than making sure Janos Slynt and other corrupt men stayed in power) and so didn't bother to try to maintain or grow any power of his own. While his wife was busy working to amass power.

[djhdjh]

I think that just gave the Lannisters the majority of the KG. :lol: But Robert didn't serve the realm up to them on a silver platter.

Arys seems like a nice guy, all told. But Robert being able to count on three out of the seven isn't really very good since they are supposed to guard him. And I'm not sure how honorable or reliable a man Ser Mandon is -- given the attempt to murder Tyrion during the battle.

I don't know how it could have been. He died a victim of rioting because he rode back to try to help the High Septon.

Actually an interesting question -- where the loyalties of the KG lie.

Does it really matter? They're symbolically important and good fighters but they're only 7 guys. If it comes to a scrap in KL they're not that crucial. Cersei's a loose cannon but if she wants to bump Robert off she'll do it on the sly (as she did) rather than have another Kingslaying. It is nonetheless a touch daft and I can't imagine the Stormlords are happy about it. Mind you, having Jaime there is just total idiocy - even having him at the Rock as heir would be more sensible.

I think we've more or less established the situation with regards Robert and the Lannisters. He gave them a lot because he couldn't be bothered with the aggravation from Cersei or with work generally. More than he should have done (although less so than not marrying Cersei and making Tywin Hand - now that really would have been stupid). That's not my point, I agree totally, Robert could have actually done a lot to stop their powerplays if he cared - he was the king after all.

But to support that he handed the kingdom over (unless your bolding wasn't sarcastic, sorry if it wasn't) they had to have unassailable odds in both military and political power. While Robert was alive they didn't because the ultimate political power was with Jon Arryn and immediately after his death I would argue that they were onto a loser militarily when political authority had broken down. They were not unassailable to my mind at that point, just bloody Ned didn't assail them.

[Bourne]

Umm… okay, true enough. But where does the Cersei comparison even come in? When did anyone compare Cersei with Tyrion? Cersei is frequently presented as pure evil, without empathy or any relatable human quality whatsoever. Of course compared to her, Tyrion's going to come out smelling like roses. But that is really not the issue at stake.

Honestly, your emphasizing Cersei’s baseness seems a little out of place here, in a discussion of whether or not Tyrion’s sexually themed taunts towards Cersei are inappropriate and indicative of greater flaws in his character. Given the context, it might seem to some as though you are attempting to mitigate—even justify—Tyrion’s sexually themed comments and stated desire to rape Cersei by emphasizing Cersei’s “morally worse” character. So Cersei's so evil, Tyrion's incredibly sexually themed, misogynistic thoughts about her don't reflect issues of his own character?

The issue is not "Who's better-- Tyrion or Cersei?" It never has been. Though bringing up Cersei's sociopathy (played to the hilt in these books) is a great way to skate on by Tyrion's disturbing thoughts, fantasies, and comments about her.

Well lets see...

Similarly, people are often so opposed to Cersei and in favor of Tyrion that they fail to see/ appreciate that some of the stuff he says about her is overtly sexual, misogynistic, and downright creepy. However, since comments are generally presented as “cool/ funny/ true”, perhaps it is unrealistic of me to expect viewers to be disapproving—or even mildly disconcerted—by them. (In several interviews, GRRM has noted that Tyrion “is a truth teller, and is always telling the truth, even when it gets him into trouble.” I guess Tyrion’s creepy, sexualized, occasionally violent comments to Cersei are supposed to be “true” or something.)

Keats, your post pretty much repeats what I’ve already heard about Tyrion countless times on these boards. (In, interestingly, almost the exact same language expressions I’ve heard used before. Maybe my minds playing tricks on me, but I could swear that I read this exact same post—same ideas, same paragraph order, same means of expression, same words and phrases used—about a year back when I was still a lurker on these boards.) At any rate, you echo the same feelings held by many, so no doubt the following post will proceed to earn numerous “like” ratings.

Honestly, in the end, your posting seems to support my argument (regarding the tendency of readers to defend Tyrion’s every action, never fail to sympathize with him, and argue that he is good, no matter what he does), rather than refute it in any way. (Or add anything new to the kettle.) Generally, given the common nature of your post and its sentiments, I’d pass it by in silence. However, I felt compelled to comment on the following:

Okay…. But Tyrion’s comments about Cersei—frequently gender specific, and disturbingly often sexually themed—have everything to do with her being a woman.

In ADWD alone:

He comments (to Illario) that if he is going to chop off his head, he should chop off Cersei’s vagina as well, “the best part of her for the best part of me.” I know… hilarious and awesome! And totally necessary, because Cersei is “an enormous bitch.” Or, at least, this is how it is presented. And no doubt 99 percent of viewers accept this as true.

However, I couldn’t’ help but notice that what Tyrion says here is a. Undeniably gender themed; b. sexually explicit, and intended to humiliate Cersei on a specifically sexual level; and c. not something that most guys WOULD THINK ABOUT THEIR OWN SISTER.

Next, later in the story, Tyrion notes how he desires “to murder and rape my sister” to the widow of the Waterfront. (Who laughs/ approves. )

No doubt “Tyrion didn’t mean it” “he was only joking,” or, as you seem to imply in your post, “Cersei deserves everything you can throw at her.” (Including rape?) Whether or not a Cersei rape is something you (and others) desire to see, you must admit that wanting to murder and rape one’s sister (no matter how evil said sister is) IS something that is creepy and misogynistic. And something that has EVERTHING to do with Cersei being a female, and nothing to do with her being evil in general. No doubt you will claim Tyrion didn’t mean it, etc. However, the fact that he even said it speaks volumes. (Perhaps as much about the attitudes of the text itself as those of Tyrion.) And on some level, I do believe Tyrion kind of did mean it.

I know, I know—such comments are “hilarious and awesome,” and why you love Tyrion. And yet I’d argue that someone looking at it from a feminist perspective—and, it must be said, perhaps someone who does not identify with Tyrion to the extent that you appear to—might see things just a little bit differently.

If anything, your praise of Tyrion, and championship of his attitude towards—and everything he’s said and done to Cersei—in general pretty much proves my point. My point was that, despite the gender specific, actually incredibly offensive nature of half the stuff Tyrion says to / thinks about Cersei, such sentiments are presented by the text itself as hilarious/ correct. Your argument (as well as, it must be said, your general post) more or less proves my point.

Ok... so now that I'm sure I am not the one who introduced the Cersei aspect to a Tyrion conversation, I can actually answer some of your points.

First off, the only people who would say that Tyrion hasn't done anything evil and doesn't have some very creep thoughts/desires are idiots, and therefore not worth you wasting your time trying to convince otherwise. Tyrion has does some pretty horrible stuff.

But you are wrong about his sexism towards Cersei. You are confusing any violent act or desire directed at a woman with sexism/misogyny. Tyrion does not hate/want to rape and murder Cersei because she is a woman. He wants to do those things because she's a bitch and has done everything she can to make his life miserable. Do his fantasies occasionally take on a sexual nature, yes. But if it were Jaime he wanted to kill he could still fantasize about raping him (although I don't think he's Tyrion's type). Again, those desires, to kill and rape her, don't stem from the fact that she's a woman.

Now, Tyrion definitely has some trouble interacting with woman (although it should be noted that it's mainly Cersei's fault). I would argue that he's not an outright misogynist, but I don't care enough or think it's all that important. Even if we agree that sexism is one of Tyrions flaws I don't really care. Not that I approve of it.

I can't help but feel you're bitter that Tyrion is so loved even though he opposes your beloved Cersei. And I'm sorry you feel that way. But If you want to disparage Tyrion's character (which is fine, I don't care. He has done a lot of despicable things), don't bring his actions towards Cersei into your post. You will never win that argument, because as I said before, Tyrion may desire to do bad things to Cersei, but it's all in retribution for the things Cersei has already done.

[Queen Cersei I]

While I find Tyrion's hatred of Cersei understandable, and think he might be justified in wanting her punished for having declared him Joffrey's murderer and playing a role in a rigged trial,

Really? Why? All evidence pointed to Tyrion as being guilty of murdering Cersei’s eldest son in cold blood. Everybody (and I mean everybody) believed that Tyrion was guilty—Tywin, the smallfolk, everyone. Though made to look like a monster for her actions against him here (especially in the scene where, right after Joff chokes, she starts screaming to arrest Tyrion), I think Cersei does what any normal, non sociopathic man or woman would do in this situation, if convinced that their sibling had conspired to murder their son.

While not exactly moral, considering the fact that she (and pretty much everyone else) believed that Tyrion had murdered Joff, Cersei’s rigging the trial becomes understandable. She wanted to take every step to assure Tyrion was punished. And, it is made to look as though everyone (especially Cersei) turns on Tyrion because he is physically disabled/ a dwarf, I think that if one looks at his actions in regards to Cersei and her children throughout the first three books, one sees that this is not entirely the case. The fact is, Tyrion has done and said some things that reflect badly on him, and could be brought forth as grounds of suspicion in a court of law. For instance, threatening to rape and abuse Tommen, which you mention here yourself. We, the readers, are in Tyrion’s head, and know he wouldn’t do/ doesn’t mean it, etc. Cersei has no such privileged knowledge, and neither does Tywin, who believes Tyrion to be every bit as guilty as Cersei does. (And the smallfolk do. And Kevan does. Hell, even Jaime’s not sure.)

As for Cersei’s “abuse” of Tyrion, I can’t really see anything besides the childhood incident mentioned by Oberyn. Mostly, Cersei is guilty of just ignoring Tyrion, acting superior to him. And, ADWD is to be believed, making the occasional nasty comment. I’m not sure that makes her deserving to be murdered (and raped) by him.

Cersei has done great wrong to countless people, and no doubt needs to pay for this with her life. Tyrion is actually one of the few people in Westeros who would not be justified in killing Cersei out of revenge. Jaime is another… and yet, in so many of the Cersei hatred threads, I constantly read wishes that one of these two will end up killing Cersei. And comments that this would constitute “poetic justice” somehow.