Unpopular opinions III

[brashcandy]

ok, so in one aspect of her life she is a notch above Walder Frey and Roose Bolton. point taken - only Robert never had any children!

Well, Robert had bastards, no trueborns, and those were the ones he seemed to show more affection to ironically. As for Cersei's kids, he didn't seem to like Joffrey at all, so I was thinking of him when I listed Robert.

[eyeheartsansa]

I've had an unpopular view that Robert knew all along, deep down, they weren't his kids. The 100% lannister traits, + the obvious disconnect between himself and Joff, should have been enough to tip him off.

most ppl would say that he would have had Cercei put to death, but I think he may have just ignored it, saying, aw, fuggit, and gone back to his carousing and drinking, etc.

[Jamie Lannister]

I've had an unpopular view that Robert knew all along, deep down, they weren't his kids. The 100% lannister traits, + the obvious disconnect between himself and Joff, should have been enough to tip him off.

most ppl would say that he would have had Cercei put to death, but I think he may have just ignored it, saying, aw, fuggit, and gone back to his carousing and drinking, etc.

Nah, I wouldn't buy that. I think he simply put them down to taking after his evil bitch of a wife instead of him, which would explain his cold attitude.

But even then, Robert did make the odd effort to bond with Joffrey. I think it was just too little too late, especially since Joff was already a "lonely boy" who Cersei thought was "looking for the father he never found in Robert."

[brashcandy]

It's not impossible that he didn't have his suspicions, but I think it's unlikely that he outright knew and didn't act on it. Yeah Robert was preoccupied with whoring and drinking, but he was still very much a macho man that would not have tolerated leaving illegitimate children to follow him in succession. He shows his dignity too when he reneges on the plan to kill Daenerys.

I like Robert- I think he victimized Cersei, but I think she shares a lot of the blame for that marriage failing too. As a King he was a disaster though... but considering the mess the realm is in now - Robert's whoring and drinking look like chaste recreational activities.

[Alexia]

Robert was a terrible father. The incident with the cat was awful, but Robert hit Joffrey so hard that Stannis thought he'd killed him. That's not parenting, that's not discipline, that is just horrific abusive violence. Joffrey's attitude towards Sansa is modeled after seeing his father beat his mother.

Robert ignores Myrcella and Tommen at best, both of whom are good kids. He fathers children right and left, and doesn't parent them either.

Robert is a character who comes off sympathetically through Ned's eyes, until you realize what a pathetic washed up guy he is. Beating his wife, abusing and neglecting his children, reliving his glory days, obsessed with a woman who ran off with another man, condoning the brutal murders of children -- Robert is weak and pathetic.

And he and Cersei are at least equally to blame for the failure of their marriage. It is pathetic that he took care to beat her where the bruises would be hidden for fear of Jaime's reaction, until Jaime left town. And the sexual abuse and violence that she endured... :stillsick:

[Shaggydog Stark]

:) I won't fault you for that. It is extremely hard to find some for Cersei, but as some others have mentioned:

1. She genuinely loves those children - I don't think she was the mother that they needed - especially Joffrey - but I think she loves them.

2. She's been hampered by the world she lives in, just like Lysa Tully was, and arguably Catelyn Stark - the only difference between her (and Lysa) and women like Catelyn is that she and and Lysa ended up with some terrible husbands, whilst Cat (could have gotten Brandon - talk about a lucky miss) but gets Ned instead, and also the fact that Cersei and Lysa's response to their marriages is to become crazier/more evil, and do some despicable things. But when you consider that Catelyn took out her resentment on an innocent child for 14 yrs instead of directing it at her husband, you can appreciate how narrow the line is between these women.

I get what you are saying. Especially about Lysa, because despite Lysa's insanity and trying to kill Sansa, I feel for her. I wouldn't necessarily agree that Jon Arryn was a bad husband because we don't really know much about the relationship except for a tidbit and that is entirely through Lysa's perspective, but that's a minor point.

However, I agree with the fact that her father should never have married her to him because of the age difference. I don't hate Lysa because her story is tragic, I actually pity her. LF and Hoster Tully basically messed her up between them. She was treated more as a pawn than a person and in general her insanity did not harm anyone. The 3 exceptions being giving her husband the Tears of Lys and the letter she sent to Cat which were basically LF doing, Lysa did not have the cunning for it and trying to push Sansa which was in a fit of jealousy/insecurity/insanity. In general though she was hiding away in fear of everyone and spoiling her child rotten.

Cersei on the other hand does not compare to Lysa. I am sorry Brash, but with Cersei the word "evil" pops into my head. Her one redeeming point is she loved her children, but I don't know if loving your children can be an act of redemption. Many people love their children. It's what she does with that love that should be called her redeeming point, and I haven't seen anything that shows me she sacrificed anything for her kids. The example of Ned comes to mind and how he sacrificed his honor for Sansa. What does she do with the love she has for her children? Where is the redemption?

I can't even compare Cersei to Lysa and Cat. There is nothing to compare. Cersei tortured her infant brother, murdered Melara, and god knows how many others when she was a kid. She murdered Robert's bastard children. She has a hand in the murder of innocent dwarfs all over the Seven Kingdoms and beyond. She condones torture through Qyburn, I could go on and on...and for what? To calm her insecurities. Yes she lives in an unfair world and she is ambitious, but there are other women who share the same world with her, and none of them behave the way she does.

Cersei would be considered a criminal even in our world. Her only redeeming point may be that she is insane, imho. But, I like all your other points and respect the argument you make on behalf of Cersei.

[djhdjh]

It's not impossible that he didn't have his suspicions, but I think it's unlikely that he outright knew and didn't act on it. Yeah Robert was preoccupied with whoring and drinking, but he was still very much a macho man that would not have tolerated leaving illegitimate children to follow him in succession. He shows his dignity too when he reneges on the plan to kill Daenerys.

I like Robert- I think he victimized Cersei, but I think she shares a lot of the blame for that marriage failing too. As a King he was a disaster though... but considering the mess the realm is in now - Robert's whoring and drinking look like chaste recreational activities.

Ironically the only area he was really such a disaster was his failure to have legitimate children, which is actually the fundamental issue to being a medieval king. I say ironic because if there's one thing you could have thought Robert would have managed. :cool4:

[Alexia]

Ironically the only area he was really such a disaster was his failure to have legitimate children, which is actually the fundamental issue to being a medieval king. I say ironic because if there's one thing you could have thought Robert would have managed. :cool4:

Handing the kingdom to the Lannisters on a silver platter didn't help, either. Renly thought Joffrey was legitimate until the end and mocks Stannis for his suspicions. He also thought that he would end up in Sansa's shoes if he didn't flee and go to war against them. Renly was basically in a similar position to Robert's in the War of the Usurper when he decided to rebel against Joffrey.

[djhdjh]

How did he hand the Lannisters the kingdom? Sure he was in a lot of debt to them but that doesn't actually come into play particularly. He didn't even let them get that dominant in KL - indeed he gave (not deliberately) opposition forces to them every chance of neutering the Lannisters entirely but Ned failed to take that chance.

As far as he knew his Baratheon son would take over the throne and even though he was clearly more a Lannister it still really took Melisandre to prevent his brother from taking the throne away from that 'son' anyway once the war got going.

I'm not saying Robert was a good hands on king or even a good king - the very fact of what happened post death says he wasn't. But he let competent people run the place for him, put down uppity Ironmen when needed and although the debts were large and not ideal they were still manageable. His real failure was screwing up his marriage with Cersei to the point that his children weren't his and Joffrey was not fit to be king even had he lived in a time of peace.

[Alexia]

How did he hand the Lannisters the kingdom? Sure he was in a lot of debt to them but that doesn't actually come into play particularly. He didn't even let them get that dominant in KL - indeed he gave (not deliberately) opposition forces to them every chance of neutering the Lannisters entirely but Ned failed to take that chance.

Cersei had a large force of Lannister men in the city whose loyalty was to her. Joffrey, heir to the throne, was being guarded by a Lannister man-at-arms, rather than a member of the KG. His squires were Lannisters. He was millions of golden dragons in debt to the Lannisters (in a particularly geeky thread, we worked that out to be in the billions of dollars). Joffrey was allowed to quarter his arms with the lion and the stag against all tradition, raising House Lannister up to be equal to the king.

Cersei was doing an excellent job of raising Lannister stature and power in KL, right up until the point where she finally killed him and openly seized power on behalf of House Lannister. That didn't happen in a vacuum; she laid the groundwork for it for many years.

Renly felt that Baratheon power in the city was so low that he had no choice but to flee, or be imprisoned by Cersei Lannister. She was in control of KL. Even Ned Stark thought that he couldn't openly move against Joffrey unless Stannis came with "all his power."

[brashcandy]

I get what you are saying. Especially about Lysa, because despite Lysa's insanity and trying to kill Sansa, I feel for her. I wouldn't necessarily agree that Jon Arryn was a bad husband because we don't really know much about the relationship except for a tidbit and that is entirely through Lysa's perspective, but that's a minor point.

However, I agree with the fact that her father should never have married her to him because of the age difference. I don't hate Lysa because her story is tragic, I actually pity her. LF and Hoster Tully basically messed her up between them. She was treated more as a pawn than a person and in general her insanity did not harm anyone. The 3 exceptions being giving her husband the Tears of Lys and the letter she sent to Cat which were basically LF doing, Lysa did not have the cunning for it and trying to push Sansa which was in a fit of jealousy/insecurity/insanity. In general though she was hiding away in fear of everyone and spoiling her child rotten.

Cersei on the other hand does not compare to Lysa. I am sorry Brash, but with Cersei the word "evil" pops into my head. Her one redeeming point is she loved her children, but I don't know if loving your children can be an act of redemption. Many people love their children. It's what she does with that love that should be called her redeeming point, and I haven't seen anything that shows me she sacrificed anything for her kids. The example of Ned comes to mind and how he sacrificed his honor for Sansa. What does she do with the love she has for her children? Where is the redemption?

I can't even compare Cersei to Lysa and Cat. There is nothing to compare. Cersei tortured her infant brother, murdered Melara, and god knows how many others when she was a kid. She murdered Robert's bastard children. She has a hand in the murder of innocent dwarfs all over the Seven Kingdoms and beyond. She condones torture through Qyburn, I could go on and on...and for what? To calm her insecurities. Yes she lives in an unfair world and she is ambitious, but there are other women who share the same world with her, and none of them behave the way she does.

Cersei would be considered a criminal even in our world. Her only redeeming point may be that she is insane, imho. But, I like all your other points and respect the argument you make on behalf of Cersei.

I agree with your points generally as well. It is extremely hard to be sympathetic to a woman who sends people to Qyburn because they annoy her, and of course when I speak of the culture they exist in, this is not to excuse their actions, but merely to contextualise them. Would Lysa have turned into the raving lunatic if Hoster had let her keep her baby, and married her to LF despite his low birth, probably not. However, turning around and getting rid of Jon Arryn because you've always been unhappy and becoming complicit in tricking your sister cannot be excused. We all answer to the laws of personal responsibility at some point. (this is why I don't excuse Cat's actions with Jon).

As for Cersei,

it can be argued that she did sacrifice her honour for her children. When she makes that walk of shame it is in large part because she is desperate to see Tommen and ensure that he is safe.

To be fair, the only people who don't look like saints in comparison to Cersei may be Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton :), and that's obviously the way Martin wants it... but I did feel for her in her marriage, and had she not been handed off to Robert as the next best thing after the Rhaegar deal fell through, she may have gone down another path. Having said that, I do think that Cersei could have made her marriage work (personal responsibility again) somewhat better, and she isn't a complete helpless victim in that scenario.

Removing Cersei's atrocities for the moment, I think there is real comparative ground between her, Lysa and Catelyn. All their original marriage options/preferences fell through. They all came from homes with strong, unrelenting patriarchs. They each went on to experience disappointments in their marriages to varying degrees, and they've each tried to recoup, assert some power/authority in the wake of their husbands' deaths. All of these women incidentally, GRRM has shown as going completely mad... take that for you will. :mellow:

[Alexia]

Lysa got rid of Jon Arryn because he was planning to remove her child from her custody. I also think, IIRC, that LF supported it because Jon was starting to investigate his embezzlement.

There is no other character I feel so much pity for as I do for Lysa Arryn. One stupid mistake as a teenager and she was really treated quite cruelly. I didn't cheer at the Moon Door scene either, she wanted Sansa sent away (which is really quite reasonable) and LF murdered her so that he could keep perving on her 13 year old niece. Which is pretty sick.

She's not a good person and her treatment of Sansa was beyond awful, as well as her enabling of Marrillion. But she didn't deserve to be used by her father and murdered by her lover. Lysa's story is really sad, and I actually thought that GRRM saw it that way. Hoster didn't deserve anything from Lysa after what he did to her, let alone forgiveness. He made his own bed and he died in it, full of regrets.

[djhdjh]

Cersei had a large force of Lannister men in the city whose loyalty was to her. Joffrey, heir to the throne, was being guarded by a Lannister man-at-arms, rather than a member of the KG. His squires were Lannisters. He was millions of golden dragons in debt to the Lannisters (in a particularly geeky thread, we worked that out to be in the billions of dollars). Joffrey was allowed to quarter his arms with the lion and the stag against all tradition, raising House Lannister up to be equal to the king.

Cersei was doing an excellent job of raising Lannister stature and power in KL, right up until the point where she finally killed him and openly seized power on behalf of House Lannister. That didn't happen in a vacuum; she laid the groundwork for it for many years.

Renly felt that Baratheon power in the city was so low that he had no choice but to flee, or be imprisoned by Cersei Lannister. She was in control of KL. Even Ned Stark thought that he couldn't openly move against Joffrey unless Stannis came with "all his power."

Ah, have I got LF's position in all this mess wrong? In which case you would be right. I assumed LF both wanted and could get the Gold Cloaks onside for Ned (yes I remember the whole don't trust me thing but didn't take it to mean he'd betray him no matter what at least in non literary terms) and that would be enough. My thought was that LF would basically be the top man in KL with Ned as Regent and Cersei back at the Rock so he wanted to do that deal and only switched to Cersei because he couldn't allow a Stannis kingship, with this being less attractive because Cersei backed up presumably by Tywin as Regent/Hand would be far harder to play.

In that scenario the Lannisters could actually have been stymied fairly easily but for Ned's ineptitude. If LF actually was just gunning for Ned for personal reasons all along and was just setting him up for a fall by offering him help in the first scenario then yes the Lannisters had been given too much power. It still took a fluke for them to hang on in the medium term but then again that's nowt to do with Robert's choices (inadvertent effects - he'd given up caring long before the end) and everything to do with the balance of power in the 7 kingdoms.

[Raksha the Demon]

I was hardly expecting him to. What I have an issue with is the gender specific, sexually themed taunts and insults.

And I’m not really even taking issue with this—I’m merely saying that, yes, I find it creepy, and immature, and suspect that it does indeed say something about Tyrion as a human being.

Umm… okay, true enough. But where does the Cersei comparison even come in? When did anyone compare Cersei with Tyrion? Cersei is frequently presented as pure evil, without empathy or any relatable human quality whatsoever. Of course compared to her, Tyrion's going to come out smelling like roses. But that is really not the issue at stake.

Honestly, your emphasizing Cersei’s baseness seems a little out of place here, in a discussion of whether or not Tyrion’s sexually themed taunts towards Cersei are inappropriate and indicative of greater flaws in his character. Given the context, it might seem to some as though you are attempting to mitigate—even justify—Tyrion’s sexually themed comments and stated desire to rape Cersei by emphasizing Cersei’s “morally worse” character. So Cersei's so evil, Tyrion's incredibly sexually themed, misogynistic thoughts about her don't reflect issues of his own character?

The issue is not "Who's better-- Tyrion or Cersei?" It never has been. Though bringing up Cersei's sociopathy (played to the hilt in these books) is a great way to skate on by Tyrion's disturbing thoughts, fantasies, and comments about her.

Yep, and a great foil for our Tyrion, isn’t she? Next to someone genuinely moral, even decent, Tyrion would look shabby. However, next to the extravagant, gratuitous, almost inhuman cruelty of Cersei, Tyrion’s… well, lack of “inhuman” cruelty makes him look like a stand up guy in comparison.

I do think that as of AFFC, Tyrion is a better person than Cersei. I would give Tyrion a narrow edge over Cersei because so far, he has not yet directly and specifically ordered the deaths of babies or young children as Cersei did with Robert's bastards. That does not excuse his increasingly creepy fixation on sexual vengeance, including rape, with his sister. It can be argued that Tyrion had a right to want Cersei dead; as in killed; but the rape threats? Ick. I don't care whether he would actually go through with it or is just fantasizing, it's seriously nasty stuff and points to some serious problems with Tyrion. He gets a pass from me on thoughts of killing Cersei, but not on thoughts/threats to rape her, or threats and actions against her younger children.

[Alexia]

Ah, have I got LF's position in all this mess wrong? In which case you would be right. I assumed LF both wanted and could get the Gold Cloaks onside for Ned (yes I remember the whole don't trust me thing but didn't take it to mean he'd betray him no matter what) and that would be enough.

Ned needed the goldcloaks to combat Cersei's redcloaks (of which Sandor Clegane was a member). She had them out practicing while Robert was dying with the intent of intimidating Ned and letting him know that she had armed men out there and more than he did.

Ned, of course, had nocloaks because he was a moron and sent most of his men off to track down Gregor Clegane. But I don't think even the original force he took with him was the equal of the Lannister forces in the city. Cersei took Lannister men North with her to Winterfell, even, as part of their armed escort.

[The Bloody Boar]

Unpopular opinion: Robert is basically a good guy.

There's no cruelty in him or hypocrisy or deceit. He just follows his natural instincts the whole time, and generally they are good. His reaction to the Mad King's atrocities was natural - and it was right. His reaction to Joff's sick torture of an animal was basically sound, and it's better for a boy to know from his reaction just how sick what he did was than continue down that path. With both Aerys and Joffrey, he saw a monster and knew it for what it was. Cersei is the worst possible match for him since she's always twisting what he says around, trying to make wrong right, and deliberately provoke him. He has no idea how to handle it, which is why he fails to control his anger and hits her.

He's weak, of course, because he lets himself go, but it would never have happened if he'd been with a woman with a heart.

[djhdjh]

Ned needed the goldcloaks to combat Cersei's redcloaks (of which Sandor Clegane was a member). She had them out practicing while Robert was dying with the intent of intimidating Ned and letting him know that she had armed men out there and more than he did.

Ned, of course, had nocloaks because he was a moron and sent most of his men off to track down Gregor Clegane. But I don't think even the original force he took with him was the equal of the Lannister forces in the city. Cersei took Lannister men North with her to Winterfell, even, as part of their armed escort.

But if the Gold Cloaks were enough then it wouldn't matter and the impression I got was that they would have been. It would have been Jon Arryn's boys (!) beating the Lannisters. The Lannister thing would not necessarily have even been that damaging in the long term (very long term, as in Baratheon dynasty long) but for the fact that Joffrey was Lannister x2. Not clever from Robert but not actually that damaging.

Don't take this as Robert being any good, I just find it one of the ironies of the book and system that his truly important failings ended up being personal and that the system could just about cover for the fact that he was a flop professionally.

[brashcandy]

I do think that as of AFFC, Tyrion is a better person than Cersei. I would give Tyrion a narrow edge over Cersei because so far, he has not yet directly and specifically ordered the deaths of babies or young children as Cersei did with Robert's bastards. That does not excuse his increasingly creepy fixation on sexual vengeance, including rape, with his sister. It can be argued that Tyrion had a right to want Cersei dead; as in killed; but the rape threats? Ick. I don't care whether he would actually go through with it or is just fantasizing, it's seriously nasty stuff and points to some serious problems with Tyrion. He gets a pass from me on thoughts of killing Cersei, but not on thoughts/threats to rape her, or threats and actions against her younger children.

That Tyrion, a dwarf, who would find it hard to overpower a grown woman, could still be having such degrading sexual fantasies, really makes you uncomfortably aware of just how much women are at risk for sexual violence/humiliation in that world. It is sickening.

[Alexia]

But if the Gold Cloaks were enough then it wouldn't matter and the impression I got was that they would have been. It would have been Jon Arryn's boys (!) beating the Lannisters.

And if Robert hadn't allowed... enabled... encouraged, even... corruption in his kingdom, Janos Slynt's head would have been snipped off and an honorable man might have been put in charge of the gold cloaks who would be willing to support Ned on the basis of his regency.

That the goldcloaks were so easily bought off is entirely due to Robert's failure to deliver justice to Janos Slynt when confronted with carefully collected evidence gathered during an investigation.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I agree with your points generally as well. It is extremely hard to be sympathetic to a woman who sends people to Qyburn because they annoy her, and of course when I speak of the culture they exist in, this is not to excuse their actions, but merely to contextualise them. Would Lysa have turned into the raving lunatic if Hoster had let her keep her baby, and married her to LF despite his low birth, probably not. However, turning around and getting rid of Jon Arryn because you've always been unhappy and becoming complicit in tricking your sister cannot be excused. We all answer to the laws of personal responsibility at some point. (this is why I don't excuse Cat's actions with Jon).

As for Cersei,

it can be argued that she did sacrifice her honour for her children. When she makes that walk of shame it is in large part because she is desperate to see Tommen and ensure that he is safe.

Removing Cersei's atrocities for the moment, I think there is real comparative ground between her, Lysa and Catelyn. All their original marriage options/preferences fell through. They all came from homes with strong, unrelenting patriarchs. They each went on to experience disappointments in their marriages to varying degrees, and they've each tried to recoup, assert some power/authority in the wake of their husbands' deaths. All of these women incidentally, GRRM has shown as going completely mad... take that for you will. :mellow:

Yes I completely, agree with the personal responsibility part, you are absolutely right. I didn't mean to say that Lysa is not responsible but that she is not cunning enough to think up such a thing. However, it does not mean she is not culpable.

Or it can be argued that she really wanted to get out of prison :). However, I have high hopes that the walk of shame might have finally shaken her enough to wake up and see the world she had a part in creating. One can only hope.

To be fair, the only people who don't look like saints in comparison to Cersei may be Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton :), and that's obviously the way Martin wants it... but I did feel for her in her marriage, and had she not been handed off to Robert as the next best thing after the Rhaegar deal fell through, she may have gone down another path. Having said that, I do think that Cersei could have made her marriage work (personal responsibility again) somewhat better, and she isn't a complete helpless victim in that scenario.

Yes, nobody compares to Clegane and Bolton, they are both sociopaths, but I am not so sure about Cersei, if she really committed murder as a child and felt no remorse, I can't see her changing married to anyone. Even had she married Rhaegar, I think a couple of years into the marriage she would have found all sorts of faults with him and found ways to justify her next criminal acts to herself.

But I agree, it takes two to make a marriage and her marriage to Robert might have been a bit better if they had both put a little effort into it.

Removing Cersei's atrocities for the moment, I think there is real comparative ground between her, Lysa and Catelyn. All their original marriage options/preferences fell through. They all came from homes with strong, unrelenting patriarchs. They each went on to experience disappointments in their marriages to varying degrees, and they've each tried to recoup, assert some power/authority in the wake of their husbands' deaths. All of these women incidentally, GRRM has shown as going completely mad... take that for you will.

It's very hard to put Cersei's atrocities aside, they are so part of her ;), but this is really an interesting analogy, I hadn't thought of it that way. This has given me pause and I need to process it. However, I still hate her as a person, although as a POV her chapters are entertaining.