Unpopular opinions III

[Bourne]

Here's my thinking - he was at KL for a sole purpose - be near to his sister Cersei. Being near to Cersei means that he had access to the children - he could have been a doting nuncle ;) but Jaime just was not interested in them, period. I think this qualifies as serious neglect and makes him just as guilty as Robert who may not have seen all his bastards but met at least a couple of them, and showed some delight in them.

Jaime's ability to not care about anyone besides himself and Cersei is what causes him to push Bran through the window, neglect the monster that was Joffrey and lose track of the mess happening with the other two children.

Major flaw in that argument is that Cersei wouldn't let him play the doting nuncle. It's not that he had no interest in them, she didn't let him have access to the children because she was worried it would click in someones head that he was more than just the uncle.

And I don't know where you get that Jaime is only capable of loving himself and Cersei. He's the only person in Westeros who has enough love to love Tyrion. He shows a lot of love for his family.

[brashcandy]

Major flaw in that argument is that Cersei wouldn't let him play the doting nuncle. It's not that he had no interest in them, she didn't let him have access to the children because she was worried it would click in someones head that he was more than just the uncle.

And I don't know where you get that Jaime is only capable of loving himself and Cersei. He's the only person in Westeros who has enough love to love Tyrion. He shows a lot of love for his family.

Oops yes, I forgot about Tyrion.

[lyvyathan]

Dude where have you been? That's been posted about 363,000 or so times give or take a hundred ever since the creation of this board. You are nowhere near an unpopular opinion. Unless it's mine; see below.

Unpopular Position:

Catelyn should have put her foot down and had Jon raised by Ned's relatives. Or a Karstark or something. What was Ned going to do? Beat her into submission?

Haha, I didn't come to the board until recently but from the last thread attempting to defend Catelym the other posters didn't seem aware of it so I thought I'd bring it up.

As for that statement: "Catelyn should have put her foot down...etc".

Actually I agree with you there. Everyone including Cat knew that Ned was decent and honorable enough not to have done such an act. You would have thought that after the 1st year of marriage she would have figured that out and realized he wasn't a Ramsay Bolton, R. Tarly,, even a Robert Baratheon. And then she realized she could put down that ultimatum without significant retribution.

But instead she choose to forgive him but somehow chose to redirect her resentment - albeit passively - at the bastard child for 14 years from the time he was 1. Sure Cat' lovers may defend it her behavior claiming that showing coldness and mild resenment towards a child whose living with your family in close proximity does not constitute child abuse - but I find such defence delorable, even disgusting.

Cat reminds me of this ditty I made up:

There was a strange Aunt

who felt she had a runt

whose name she couldn't utter.

She pleaded with her husband

to get ride of the runt

but all he did was just mutter

What a pugnacious Aunt

Keeping herself in grave funk

For 14 years thereafter

[Rarm]

Haha, I didn't come to the board until recently but from the last thread attempting to defend Catelym the other posters didn't seem aware of it so I thought I'd bring it up.

As for that statement: "Catelyn should have put her foot down...etc".

Actually I agree with you there. Everyone including Cat knew that Ned was decent and honorable enough not to have done such an act. You would have thought that after the 1st year of marriage she would have figured that out and realized he wasn't a Ramsay Bolton, R. Tarly,, even a Robert Baratheon. And then she realized she could put down that ultimatum without significant retribution.

But instead she choose to forgive him but somehow chose to redirect her resentment - albeit passively - at the bastard child for 14 years from the time he was 1. Sure Cat' lovers may defend it her behavior claiming that showing coldness and mild resenment towards a child whose living with your family in close proximity does not constitute child abuse - but I find such defence delorable, even disgusting.

Cat reminds me of this ditty I made up:

There was a strange Aunt

who felt she had a runt

whose name she couldn't utter.

She pleaded with her husband

to get ride of the runt

but all he did was just mutter

What a pugnacious Aunt

Keeping herself in grave funk

For 14 years thereafter

My father raised one of my mothers other daughters from a different father. He never resented my sister becuase my mother cheated on him, she was a baby who never did anything wrong. Even if Jon was a reminder of Ned's infildelity, than she should be only pissed at Ned not Jon. It has nothing to do with who's a "Jon fan" or a "Cat fan" It has to do with Catelyn being immature and unreasonable towards the wrong person.

[blackseer]

I think that Jon being the reminder of Ned's infidelity is not the only reason Cat hates him. She hates him for being a token of Ned's love that was stronger that the one he has for her and he doesn't even trust her enough to tell her name. And IMO the main reason she hates him is for being exactly like Ned, both in attitude and looks, even more than her own children, making her believe that Jon has a stronger connection to Ned, maybe being even his favorite.

[Tammy]

I think that Jon being the reminder of Ned's infidelity is not the only reason Cat hates him. She hates him for being a token of Ned's love that was stronger that the one he has for her and he doesn't even trust her enough to tell her name. And IMO the main reason she hates him is for being exactly like Ned, both in attitude and looks, even more than her own children, making her believe that Jon has a stronger connection to Ned, maybe being even his favorite.

I think is pretty well supported in Cat's thoughts.

[Rarm]

I think is pretty well supported in Cat's thoughts.

I think that Jon being the reminder of Ned's infidelity is not the only reason Cat hates him. She hates him for being a token of Ned's love that was stronger that the one he has for her and he doesn't even trust her enough to tell her name. And IMO the main reason she hates him is for being exactly like Ned, both in attitude and looks, even more than her own children, making her believe that Jon has a stronger connection to Ned, maybe being even his favorite.

Just so. Even then why not be pissed Ned is choosing favorites and leave Jon out of it?

[Rarm]

It's not that I don't understand why she has these feelings, I do, but taking it out on Jon is wrong no ,matter how you slice it. I'm even really a big Jon fan, but this just always rubbed me the wrong way. It gave me a negative view of Cat from the get go.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

The small folks are the innocents. Whether it's the Targaryens, Baratheons, Lannisters, or the Starks they are the ones who will suffer the most. It happens. Many innocents were killed because Robb, Stannis, Joffey, and Renly wanted to play at King and Queens.

Exactly my point.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Oops yes, I forgot about Tyrion.

And the fact that Kingsguardsman must give up all claims to family name and titles in order to serve the king. Their vows are similar to the Night's Watch. He could not be both doting uncle and Kingsguard. Being that Robert assumed they were his children he should have been more active in their upbringing, but he cared more about making them than raising them.

[lyvyathan]

My father raised one of my mothers other daughters from a different father. He never resented my sister becuase my mother cheated on him, she was a baby who never did anything wrong. Even if Jon was a reminder of Ned's infildelity, than she should be only pissed at Ned not Jon. It has nothing to do with who's a "Jon fan" or a "Cat fan" It has to do with Catelyn being immature and unreasonable towards the wrong person.

I'm not a Cat fan nor a Jon fan. I'm an ASOIAF fan. And I'm not saying that Cat should take out her angst on Jon, no matter how mild it is on the chilli scale.

[ARYa_Nym]

It would have been best if Benjen had been old enough and if he didn't take the Black. I got the impression that he was the one who was closest to Lyanna anyway.

He was concerned about how he was treated.

"Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look. "Don't you usually eat at table with your brothers? "Most times," Jon answered in a flat voice..."But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them." "

& later when Jon got mad.

"I'm not your son!" Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity."

[ARYa_Nym]

Exactly my point.

Right. They're all guilty of it.

[ZacharyB]

I always liked Cat more as a character for her insecurities towards Jon and whatnot. It made her seem more real and less like those other perfect mother protagonists.

Also, wasn't there a rule in the first thread where you weren't supposed to argue with others about their opinions? Where did that go? :lol:

[Tagganaro]

My father raised one of my mothers other daughters from a different father. He never resented my sister becuase my mother cheated on him, she was a baby who never did anything wrong. Even if Jon was a reminder of Ned's infildelity, than she should be only pissed at Ned not Jon. It has nothing to do with who's a "Jon fan" or a "Cat fan" It has to do with Catelyn being immature and unreasonable towards the wrong person.

Well, in Catelyn's defense, she probably initially felt like she couldn't really be angry with Ned. We know how much of a stranger he was to her and how she had barely met him on their wedding night. She's a stranger to the North with no real power in the relationship. Eventually I agree she probably should have lightened up towards Jon, but it's not made easy at all by the fact that she's literally forced to confront this kid everyday who isn't hers who looks more like Ned than any of her other children. That has to weigh on her.

Plus, it's tough to really transport our morals regarding child-rearing and blood to the world of Westeros where Jon's blood is considered tainted from the day he's born. In Westeros, blood is everything. No other mother/wife that I'm aware of is forced to live for and provide for a constant reminder of her husband's infidelity. While Cersei is no fit comparison for any type of moral behavior, she had Robert's bastards murdered the second he died.

To be honest, I don't understand why Ned isn't the one who bears the hate here. It's his wrong- If Jon is a secret Targ there's no reason why Ned shouldn't explain this to Cat once he feels like he can trust her. If Jon is actually Ned's son, that almost makes it even worse to me that he would allow Catelyn to mistreat him because she didn't feel like she could be angry with Ned. Ned should have stepped in at some point and told her that her anger should be with him and not with Jon. Instead, Ned seems perfectly fine and content to sit back and let her take her anger out on Jon.

[Alexia]

I just want to repeat again that Catelyn hate is not an unpopular opinion. Somebody who comes in here and says Catelyn should have smothered Jon in his cradle like Cersei would have, now that is an unpopular opinion.

Plus, since it just burned up 21 pages of a dedicated thread -- obviously, Catelyn hate is a thread all its own.

[ZacharyB]

I just want to repeat again that Catelyn hate is not an unpopular opinion. Somebody who comes in here and says Catelyn should have smothered Jon in his cradle like Cersei would have, now that is an unpopular opinion.

Plus, since it just burned up 21 pages of a dedicated thread -- obviously, Catelyn hate is a thread all its own.

Or if someone said they liked Catelyn.

By the way, I like Catelyn. STONEHEART POWER.

[1234567]

I like Stoneheart too.

[Alexia]

I adore Stoneheart, and I think that Manderly should send her some recipes.

[Giantsbaby]

Book character doesn't need to be a good person in order to be likeable. See Theon.