[ADwD Spoilers] Jaime & Bran

[Sister Goldenhair]

What if Jon Snow's mother is a Wilding, that would make Ned want to keep her quiet.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Genna said Tyrion is Tywin's real son. This might ultimately mean he's the only one fathered by Tywin, but what Genna was really talking about at the time is that Tyrion behaves like Tywin's heir.

Correct. But that could also be foreshadowing, i.e. it's meant to be taken one way, but it's actually alluding to a much bigger picture, even if it's being done so unintentionally, i.e. a clue. Genna fully believes all of Tywin's kids are his, we can assume, but by simply pointing out a casual observation such as that, she may be hitting on something that goes much deeper than she realizes. It's a common literary device.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

What if Jon Snow's mother is a Wilding, that would make Ned want to keep her quiet.

I like this idea. It would explain why Jon seems to relate to the Wildlings so well. And if, say, someone like Mance Rayder turns out to be his father, that would definitely add to the symmetry of the story (i.e. Jon was actually saving his little brother when he gave baby Mance to Samwell).

[Sister Goldenhair]

He is a Stark. He is Lyanna's son. Rhaegar is his father. He is Ned's nephew.,

I think he's a Stark and a Wilding either via Ned's paramour or his sister's. Is Mance old enough to be Jon's father?

[Rickon is FIERCE]

If Martin pulls a fast one and makes Jon the son of Mance Rayder it will only be b/c everybody figured out R+L=J.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

I hope it's something better than that. I'd like to have Raven as an ally against the menace, like he appears to be. Even good guy blood magic might run on cannibal fuel. And even Watch members can be bad seeds, (like those whom Cold Hands hunted down were). You're saying the rebellion made Raven so disgusted with humanity that he gave up on the species? But he's been watching over man ever since like big pappa forest pimp. So he's been spying on the Lord Commanders just to gather intel against them with his bird all this time? Wouldn't a spy try to camoflaugue itself better? Mormont's bird stands out as a presence in solidarity with the Watch much like Dolorous Ed grumbles and bothers the lord commanders. The raven tries to communicate with them at times because he values the watch and keeps tabs on what they're doing in case there's a crisis he can help with. This "Bloodraven is naughty" business would also mean all the prayers made to weirwoods have fallen not just on deaf ears but were actually heard by the spying ears of the enemy! I could maybe see that if just the Children were listening, but Raven's a human which would make him the least likely greenseer to turn against humanity, not the most likely. And Bran was drawn to the stories about Others because as an enemy of mankind they fascinated him and he wondered how the heroes fought against such powers, because he imagined himself fighting against them and wanted to know how.

The reason I think it's not "better than that" is because of the parallels between BR and Tyrion.

Tyrion, a dwarf, was made Hand of the King, saved King's Landing from Stannis, but was hated by the smallfolk anyway, due to his freakish appearance.

Bloodraven, an albino, was made Hand of the King, saved the realm from Blackfyre and the famine, but was hated by the smallfolk anyway, due to his freakish appearance.

We have no idea how BR felt about this, but we do know how Tyrion felt, based on what he said and thought during his trial. He kept thinking to himself, "I saved you miserable people from Stannis and this is the thanks I get? I should've let you all die" [paraphrasing].

However, Tyrion neither had the ability to take revenge on the people who wronged him, nor the desire. Deep down, he's a happy-go-lucky guy who wants to drink, whore, laugh and have a good time. He's very playful and cheerful and is hardly ever serious.

Not so for Bloodraven. Perhaps I'm wrong about him, but I got the sense he was a VERY serious guy; a gloomy character who holds grudges. In other words, I don't expect to find him partying in a brothel in the next D&E book.

So, if BR had a similar reaction to Tyrion when he was put on trial and subsequently thrown in the Black Cells, I'd imagine he might react a little differently and carry a grudge, whereas Tyrion did not. Perhaps BR would even make it his life's work to take revenge on the people who wronged him. And if that's the case, not only would BR hate the common citizenry of the realm, who betrayed and humiliated him, but also the Targaryen family, who never accepted him and abandoned him to his fate, after he had done so much for them.

As for BR spying on the Watch, he may very well want to keep track of their movements. Generally, when someone is spying on someone else, they're not doing it for that person's benefit. We can be fairly certain that BR was expelled from the Watch and had his name erased from the records (given the fact that Samwell found no record of him ever being the Lord Commander, as he supposedly was). So, here we have a guy who was expelled from an organization, banished to the Haunted Forest, had his name erased from the records, and is now spying on that very same organization... because he loves them so much and wants to help them? Me thinks not. As for camouflage, I'd say shedding your human form and adopting the body of a raven is pretty good camo, even if he constantly squawks and causes a fuss. It's worked so far, because neither Jon Snow, nor Commander Mormont ever thought to themselves, "Maybe this raven is Bloodraven". They remain totally oblivious, at least. And it seems like it would be rather easy for BR to make the raven say something like "Bloodraven", if he really wanted to give away his identity.

As for the weirwoods, I believe the First Men and the Andals cut them down for a reason. It's been portrayed as if they were cut down due to fearful ignorance, but I doubt that to be the case. The Children and Humans are ancient enemies, and the weirwoods seem to be the most powerful weapon in the Children's arsenal. True, the First Men eventually converted to the religion, but it was not their religion... for that matter, it wasn't even a human religion at all. It was the Children's, and based on what we know, they aren't entirely 100% human, like the Andals, or the Rhoynar, or even the Valyrians are. They're something else, something other than human. What that is, we don't know. That would seem to suggest that when the First Men pray to the Old Gods, they are in fact praying to someone, or something else... something other than what most humans pray to.

And, White Walkers are described as having "chalk white" or "bone white" skin. Weirwood trees are described as having "bone white" trunks... I've always wondered if there's some kind of connection there? Weirwoods are white, Others are white, and Bloodraven is white...

[BrosBeforeSnows]

If Martin pulls a fast one and makes Jon the son of Mance Rayder it will only be b/c everybody figured out R+L=J.

I've gone pretty back and forth with that. At first, I was totally convinced R+L=J. I pretty much accepted it as fact, without question. But as the series has progressed, I'm not nearly as confident as I once was. GRRM may have put that in there to throw people off of his tracks, because (this is my theory at least), as long as people believe that Jon is a Targ, and Jon & Dany are the main characters, they can't solve the riddle.

Perhaps I'm reading too deep into things, and the series will end just as everyone expects (i.e. Jon/Dany are the saviors, and everything ends happily ever after)... but I can't help but think GRRM is creating something much, much bigger than that... something that will blow people's minds when the truth is finally revealed.

[davidjones2492]

I really can't get on board with this theory and your interpretations of events:

Consider this as well, Bloodraven commanded Coldhands to kill the Night's Watchmen who were following them to the cave. This can be rationalized that BR is trying to save the world, so what are a few ex-robbers and rapists worth, in the grand scheme of things?... "Everything", as Davos would say.

BR was more than willing to kill (good?) people to cover his tracks; to sacrifice a few for the "good of all" (supposedly), but, when Stannis asks Davos what is the life of one bastard boy worth against the entire realm, Davos gave his famous reply. Ned Stark said the same when Robert suggested killing Dany, but not BR. He's more than willing to kill whoever it takes to keep his secrets.

Something's fishy...

You are making any number of assumptions here:

1) That Coldhands doesn't have any will of his own and is just doing what Bloodraven commands him to, this is at odds with his speach in the books where he makes a distinction between himself and the last Greenseer, (or whatever he calls Bloodraven).

2) That the Nightswatch members in question were not a threat to Bran's group; if I recall these were desserters, some of whom had taken part in the murder of the Old Bear? Killing them could well have been the most reasonable course of action; they could well have attacked Coldhands, even if not they were hardly innocent kids like Edric Storm and there really is no comparison between the situations here. Seems to me that both Ned and Davos would have been more than willing to off them, (neither took kindly to oath breakers in past books).

3) Were they being followed? I though coldhands just happened across the Nights watch guys in his patrolling; weren't they ahead of the group? (I probably need to reread the section).

Because Bloodraven is not strong enough to control them. The only wight he can control is Coldhands, but Bran's powers are much stronger than BR's, so he will eventually control them all.

But I'm convinced that the magic spell that wards wights away from Bloodraven's cave is Bloodraven himself.

If Bloodraven isn't controlling every other Wight at present, not to mention the Whitewalkers themselves, then who is? They seem to be going about their business pretty efficiently. I always got the impression that the Others themselves animate and control the wights; (they obviously raise them, this was made clear in the very first chapter of the series). I also always got the impression that the others are intelligent, sentient beings in their own right, I can't see that they would need a wizard to tell them what to do.

Also why did the children of the forest wait until they were almost extinct before launching the zombie apocalypse on mankind? If they had this kind of juice, why not use it millenia ago when they were first ran into trouble with the first men or the andals? They have had greenseers of their own (they invented the practice for Gods sakes).

Going on from that why would the children help the first Men and the Nights watch at all in the past if they were this pissed with mankind? We know they sent the Nights watch Obsidian,we also know that they shared their religion of the Old Gods with the First Men.

The prediction you have made re: Bran and Jaime may be poetic, but to have it make sense you really have to be creative with your interpretations of events and information in the books.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I've gone pretty back and forth with that. At first, I was totally convinced R+L=J. I pretty much accepted it as fact, without question. But as the series has progressed, I'm not nearly as confident as I once was. GRRM may have put that in there to throw people off of his tracks, because (this is my theory at least), as long as people believe that Jon is a Targ, and Jon & Dany are the main characters, they can't solve the riddle.

Perhaps I'm reading too deep into things, and the series will end just as everyone expects (i.e. Jon/Dany are the saviors, and everything ends happily ever after)... but I can't help but think GRRM is creating something much, much bigger than that... something that will blow people's minds when the truth is finally revealed.

I don't think Jon being a Targ necessarily predicts the endgame, completely. But I do think it's relatively safe to assume the big players that will be there at the end have been with us from the beginning. I do see Jon as the PWWP, he's the only one who could possibly represent both fire and ice. And although my initial thought was that Jon and Dany would team up somehow-- hopefully NOT romantically :ack: -- I now wonder will they fight each other, perhaps (someone referenced a dream of Dany's wherein she fought an ice dragon, which led me to think on this possibility)? I see Dany dead at the end of the series (or maybe that's just wishful thinking, George does spend an awful lot of time "training" her to be a queen), moved on to ride amongst the stars with Drogo.

I think Jon and Dany as principal power players was Martin's initial plan, as was R+L=J (hence the "hiding" of Howland Reed and all the hints scattered throughout the books- I find it significant that this possibility for Jon's parentage is the ONLY one NOT voiced by any character in any of the books, unlike the Ashara Dayne, Wylla, and fisherman's wife theories), but it is possible that he's changed it down the line, perhaps b/c everybody's caught on. Similarly with Jaime... not sure that George necessarily had huge plans for him at the get-go, (although there is that line of Arya's about him looking like a king should look), but it certainly seems he does, now, regardless.

So I guess the Mance theory is possible... if he had secretly visited Winterfell and spent some time with Lyanna in the crypts like Bael the Bard- the imagery of Lyanna's dying with the blue roses connecting her story to the one told by Ygritte in a much more direct parallel...

[davidjones2492]

The reason I think it's not "better than that" is because of the parallels between BR and Tyrion.

Tyrion, a dwarf, was made Hand of the King, saved King's Landing from Stannis, but was hated by the smallfolk anyway, due to his freakish appearance.

Bloodraven, an albino, was made Hand of the King, saved the realm from Blackfyre and the famine, but was hated by the smallfolk anyway, due to his freakish appearance.

We have no idea how BR felt about this, but we do know how Tyrion felt, based on what he said and thought during his trial. He kept thinking to himself, "I saved you miserable people from Stannis and this is the thanks I get? I should've let you all die" [paraphrasing].

However, Tyrion neither had the ability to take revenge on the people who wronged him, nor the desire. Deep down, he's a happy-go-lucky guy who wants to drink, whore, laugh and have a good time. He's very playful and cheerful and is hardly ever serious.

Not so for Bloodraven. Perhaps I'm wrong about him, but I got the sense he was a VERY serious guy; a gloomy character who holds grudges. In other words, I don't expect to find him partying in a brothel in the next D&E book.

So, if BR had a similar reaction to Tyrion when he was put on trial and subsequently thrown in the Black Cells, I'd imagine he might react a little differently and carry a grudge, whereas Tyrion did not. Perhaps BR would even make it his life's work to take revenge on the people who wronged him. And if that's the case, not only would BR hate the common citizenry of the realm, who betrayed and humiliated him, but also the Targaryen family, who never accepted him and abandoned him to his fate, after he had done so much for them.

As for BR spying on the Watch, he may very well want to keep track of their movements. Generally, when someone is spying on someone else, they're not doing it for that person's benefit. We can be fairly certain that BR was expelled from the Watch and had his name erased from the records (given the fact that Samwell found no record of him ever being the Lord Commander, as he supposedly was). So, here we have a guy who was expelled from an organization, banished to the Haunted Forest, had his name erased from the records, and is now spying on that very same organization... because he loves them so much and wants to help them? Me thinks not. As for camouflage, I'd say shedding your human form and adopting the body of a raven is pretty good camo, even if he constantly squawks and causes a fuss. It's worked so far, because neither Jon Snow, nor Commander Mormont ever thought to themselves, "Maybe this raven is Bloodraven". They remain totally oblivious, at least. And it seems like it would be rather easy for BR to make the raven say something like "Bloodraven", if he really wanted to give away his identity.

As for the weirwoods, I believe the First Men and the Andals cut them down for a reason. It's been portrayed as if they were cut down due to fearful ignorance, but I doubt that to be the case. The Children and Humans are ancient enemies, and the weirwoods seem to be the most powerful weapon in the Children's arsenal. True, the First Men eventually converted to the religion, but it was not their religion... for that matter, it wasn't even a human religion at all. It was the Children's, and based on what we know, they aren't entirely 100% human, like the Andals, or the Rhoynar, or even the Valyrians are. They're something else, something other than human. What that is, we don't know. That would seem to suggest that when the First Men pray to the Old Gods, they are in fact praying to someone, or something else... something other than what most humans pray to.

And, White Walkers are described as having "chalk white" or "bone white" skin. Weirwood trees are described as having "bone white" trunks... I've always wondered if there's some kind of connection there? Weirwoods are white, Others are white, and Bloodraven is white...

Do we know that Bloodraven has been erazed from the histories of the watch? I don't recall this being mentioned anywhere, just because Sam didn't mention him by name when reporting back to Jon? He also didn't mention the names of about 990 of the previous Lord commanders, this doesn't mean they were erazed,just that they weren't brought up in a conversation.

You don't know that Bloodraven was banished from the watch, it seems far more likely that he left on his own accord and was assumed dead. Why? because the Watch can't really banish people can it, its an oath for life not till the boys get sick of you. If BR was overthrown by his men then execution was on the cards, not banishment.

Would it not be simpler to say that the watch assumes that Bloodraven died a long time ago and that the majority of their present soldiers probably don't spend every working moment talking about random Lord commanders who died before any of them joined.

Re the weirwood trees; the andals cut them down, not the first men who have shown an incredibly strong commitment to the Old Gods religion. It may not of been "their" religion, but the stuck to it rather than convert to the entirely human option of the 7.

Re White Walkers are described as having "chalk white" or "bone white" skin. Weirwood trees are described as having "bone white" trunks... I've always wondered if there's some kind of connection there? Weirwoods are white, Others are white, and Bloodraven is white...

Really? clouds are white as well, so are sheep and so is milk. That entire paragraph reads like a Glenn Beck conspiracy theory.

[Whatever]

I like this idea. It would explain why Jon seems to relate to the Wildlings so well. And if, say, someone like Mance Rayder turns out to be his father, that would definitely add to the symmetry of the story (i.e. Jon was actually saving his little brother when he gave baby Mance to Samwell).

how could mance be Jon's dad?

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Do we know that Bloodraven has been erazed from the histories of the watch? I don't recall this being mentioned anywhere, just because Sam didn't mention him by name when reporting back to Jon? He also didn't mention the names of about 990 of the previous Lord commanders, this doesn't mean they were erazed,just that they weren't brought up in a conversation.

You don't know that Bloodraven was banished from the watch, it seems far more likely that he left on his own accord and was assumed dead. Why? because the Watch can't really banish people can it, its an oath for life not till the boys get sick of you. If BR was overthrown by his men then execution was on the cards, not banishment.

Would it not be simpler to say that the watch assumes that Bloodraven died a long time ago and that the majority of their present soldiers probably don't spend every working moment talking about random Lord commanders who died before any of them joined.

Re the weirwood trees; the andals cut them down, not the first men who have shown an incredibly strong commitment to the Old Gods religion. It may not of been "their" religion, but the stuck to it rather than convert to the entirely human option of the 7.

Re White Walkers are described as having "chalk white" or "bone white" skin. Weirwood trees are described as having "bone white" trunks... I've always wondered if there's some kind of connection there? Weirwoods are white, Others are white, and Bloodraven is white...

Really? clouds are white as well, so are sheep and so is milk. That entire paragraph reads like a Glenn Beck conspiracy theory.

We know that Maester Aemon never made any mention of Bloodraven either... i.e. his own cousin, who was sent to the Wall with him, and subsequently became Lord Commander. If he's such a great guy, why wouldn't Aemon have mentioned that to someone? Anyone?

By saying that BR was "banished", I meant all records of him were expunged, just like those of the Night's King. He more than likely left on his own accord, but any references to him were forbidden. Even Aemon wanted to forget about him.

It would be one thing if BR were just some random LC, but, given the fact that he's living in a weirwood tree and supposedly defending the realm from the very threat they are now facing... then yeah, you'd think someone might've mentioned him... or he, at the very least, would've revealed himself to the Watch... i.e. "Hey guys, I'm still here. Just fighting the Others for you. I'll tell you everything I know about them, etc..." That WOULD be a sensible thing to do if BR is really working in defense of the Realm of Men, don't you think? Does it make sense that he'd keep all this info to himself when the fate of the world is in the balance? Seems fishy to me. Granted, he's taken on Bran, but you'd think he'd want to prevent as many people from becoming wights as possible... or at least, I would.

As for the First Men, they DID chop down AND burn the weirwood trees when they first arrived in Westeros. From Westeros Wiki (which is run by this very site): "Around 12,000 years before Aegon's Landing, the First Men came to Westeros from the Eastern Continent by crossing the land bridge called the Arm of Dorne, under the leadership of the so-called "First King". As they settled in the new land, they chopped down and carved weirwoods that were sacred to the Children of the Forest's gods and burned them. This provoked a war between the Children and the First Men".

As for the White Walkers; clouds are white, and so are sheep, but are clouds and sheep conjured by dark magic? Are weirwood trees magical? Are the Others mysterious? Is Bloodraven a sorcerer? Put two and two together. Doesn't take a genius.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

how could mance be Jon's dad?

Not sure how it would work, but all the references to Bael the Bard and the similarities with Mance make me wonder...

i.e. A wildling king who was also a singer, snuck into Winterfell, impregnated a Stark girl (even left a blue rose, which has symbolized Lyanna thus far), and disappeared with her. When the Stark line was about to go extinct, the girl returned with Bael's baby (they'd been hiding in the crypts the whole time... Jon Snow dreams of the crypts), and Bael fled north of the Wall, where he subsequently became "King Beyond the Wall". He then later led a massive invasion of the Wall, but was stopped by his son, the new Lord Stark.

If Jon Snow were somehow Mance's son, that would almost mirror Bael's story exactly. Again, don't know how it would've worked, but I've always wondered about that.

Also, when Mance sets out to free the fake-Arya, he adopts the name of "Abel", which is an anagram for "Bael".

[Whatever]

If Jon Snow were somehow Mance's son, that would almost mirror Bael's story exactly. Again, don't know how it would've worked, but I've always wondered about that.

Also, when Mance sets out to free the fake-Arya, he adopts the name of "Abel", which is an anagram for "Bael".

this is because Bael was his idol. But he can't possibly be Jon's dad, because this would make Jon Lyanna's son and we know she was in the ToJ for a whole year before Jon's birth. Even if Mance wasn't in the Watch yet and he ever went South (which i dobut he did) how could he had sex with her?

I've read so many Mance theories today that I think my head is about to explode.

I've reado about Mance being a hidden Targ, a hidden Stark, both (??), Rickard's son, the son of Ned's mum, Aegon's and Bloodraven. Now he's also Jon's dad.7

EDIT: I like the theory though. I really do. Of course, this would make for some awkward scenes

[ARYa_Nym]

If Martin pulls a fast one and makes Jon the son of Mance Rayder it will only be b/c everybody figured out R+L=J.

GRRM said in an interview once that he wouldn't change something just because people have figured it out.

Anyway, today I thought of Genna's comments about how Jaime was like Kevan or else he wouldn't wear a cloak.

As Tywin's right-hand man Kevan was a follower. Whatever Tywin wanted he would do it in order to please him. He lived in Tywin's shadow. Jaime is also a follower. He framed his entire life around Cersei. He would do anything to please her, "The things I do for love." Both are guilty of atrocities due to their ties to the person who lead them. Jaime losing his sword-hand is a symbolic severing of his ties with Cersei. He no longer follows her. Kevan followed Tywin to the very end.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

I really can't get on board with this theory and your interpretations of events:

You are making any number of assumptions here:

1) That Coldhands doesn't have any will of his own and is just doing what Bloodraven commands him to, this is at odds with his speach in the books where he makes a distinction between himself and the last Greenseer, (or whatever he calls Bloodraven).

2) That the Nightswatch members in question were not a threat to Bran's group; if I recall these were desserters, some of whom had taken part in the murder of the Old Bear? Killing them could well have been the most reasonable course of action; they could well have attacked Coldhands, even if not they were hardly innocent kids like Edric Storm and there really is no comparison between the situations here. Seems to me that both Ned and Davos would have been more than willing to off them, (neither took kindly to oath breakers in past books).

3) Were they being followed? I though coldhands just happened across the Nights watch guys in his patrolling; weren't they ahead of the group? (I probably need to reread the section).

If Bloodraven isn't controlling every other Wight at present, not to mention the Whitewalkers themselves, then who is? They seem to be going about their business pretty efficiently. I always got the impression that the Others themselves animate and control the wights; (they obviously raise them, this was made clear in the very first chapter of the series). I also always got the impression that the others are intelligent, sentient beings in their own right, I can't see that they would need a wizard to tell them what to do.

Also why did the children of the forest wait until they were almost extinct before launching the zombie apocalypse on mankind? If they had this kind of juice, why not use it millenia ago when they were first ran into trouble with the first men or the andals? They have had greenseers of their own (they invented the practice for Gods sakes).

Going on from that why would the children help the first Men and the Nights watch at all in the past if they were this pissed with mankind? We know they sent the Nights watch Obsidian,we also know that they shared their religion of the Old Gods with the First Men.

The prediction you have made re: Bran and Jaime may be poetic, but to have it make sense you really have to be creative with your interpretations of events and information in the books.

Yes, I am making assumptions. Since the series isn't finished, and we don't have all the info yet, we must "fill in the blanks" in order to try to answer the riddle. If we don't "fill in the blanks", we might as well sit around discuss what has already happened, rather than what is going to happen. It's called "speculation".

1. Coldhands: All very true. He could very well be acting of his own free will... but we do know that it is possible for skinchangers to warg with humans, and we also know that Bloodraven was rumored to have been able to warg with just about anything, from wolves, to flocks of birds, to inanimate objects like the mist and fog. So yes, this is speculation, but if anyone could warg with a wight, Bloodraven would seem to be as likely a candidate as any. And we can be fairly certain that Coldhands is a wight. Again, that's not entirely clear either, but if he is, he shouldn't be able to think for himself at all (... actually, it seems wights retain at least some knowledge of their former lives, as evidenced by Otho's attack on Mormont, but they cannot function on a level anywhere close to Coldhands).

2. Night's Watchmen: True, they probably were deserters, but I don't recall if that was made entirely clear. Was it? Do we know for sure that's who they were? I'll have to reread that chapter, I suppose, but I don't think that was ever verified one way or the other. Bran, at least, was shocked by the incident (and granted, he wouldn't have known what had happened at Craster's Keep).

What throws me off even more than the NW incident was the fact Coldhands was very explicit about hiding Bran's existence from Jon Snow. If BR and Jon Snow are on the same side, why wouldn't he reveal his plans to him? Sure, he could be afraid that Jon would try to stop him from taking Bran, but he knows the threat they're facing, and if it were explained to him that Bran is the last greenseer and humanity's only hope against the Others, I think he'd understand. Unless, BR's not being completely honest about his true intentions for Bran. I think it's fairly clear he intends for Bran to become a part of a weirwood tree and stay there for the rest of his life, which he hasn't been entirely honest about, so I think there's plenty of room for BR to be a sinister figure. So far he's been relying on tricks rather than honesty. We'll see how that pans out.

Beyond that, if this is truly some kind of epic apocalyptic struggle between good and bad, why wouldn't BR try to alert as many people as possible to the threat? The less people who know, the more wights there will be. But rather than getting the word out, BR is keeping secrets and covering his tracks. Perhaps he sees some kind of bigger picture, and thinks Jon, or the Night's Watch, would ruin all of his plans, but it does seem as if the two might have conflicting interests. Why not join forces?

3. Again, I'll have to reread the chapter. Perhaps I was mixing that up with Bran's encounter with Samwell (i.e. Coldhands told him not to tell anyone where Bran was so they wouldn't be followed).

As for BR controlling the wights and Others, it's hard to say what the dynamics are, given our lack of information. But again, I'm speculating here. We're led to believe that the Others are their own force, and are controlling the wights themselves. But, the only people we know of in Westeros to control other creatures as the White Walkers control wights are wargs. Wargs are directly related to the religion of the Old Gods. As far as we know, there aren't any R'hllor wargs or Drowned God wargs. Only people connected to the Old Gods seem to have this ability.

So, granted, it's a tenuous connection, but it is a connection. If White Walkers are wargs, it is possible that they are somehow a part of the Old Gods framework.

As for the Children waiting until the last moment to launch their attack... We know that King Aerys, at least, did exactly that, when he ordered his pyromancers to burn King's Landing in an effort to deny it to the rebels. Perhaps the White Walkers were the Children's wildfire? Or it could've been a faction of Children who made them, against the wishes of another faction. We simply don't know.

But that's where speculation comes in. Personally, I question everything. Things aren't always as they appear... especially when ancient history is involved. That's how legends and monsters are born. The truth of what happened between the First Men, Andals and Children has been long forgotten, and likely twisted and distorted along the way.

[ARYa_Nym]

this is because Bael was his idol.

& if anyone is Bael the Bard come again it's Rhaegar not Mance. He gave Lyanna winter roses then "stole" her.

[Sister Goldenhair]

GRRM said in an interview once that he wouldn't change something just because people have figured it out.

Anyway, today I thought of Genna's comments about how Jaime was like Kevan or else he wouldn't wear a cloak.

As Tywin's right-hand man Kevan was a follower. Whatever Tywin wanted he would do it in order to please him. He lived in Tywin's shadow. Jaime is also a follower. He framed his entire life around Cersei. He would do anything to please her, "The things I do for love." Both are guilty of atrocities due to their ties to the person who lead them. Jaime losing his sword-hand is a symbolic severing of his ties with Cersei. He no longer follows her. Kevan followed Tywin to the very end.

Don't see Jaime as a follower anymore than many of the other characters are, Ned protecting Catylin etc. Jaime is the kingslayer and that certainly doesn't indicate a follower. Jaime is no longer following Cersei and who knows where that will lead.

Also GRRM may have led us to believe that Jon Snow is not Ned's son but Ned's sister's son or we may be reading more into it as we are doing on all of these different tangents.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

this is because Bael was his idol. But he can't possibly be Jon's dad, because this would make Jon Lyanna's son and we know she was in the ToJ for a whole year before Jon's birth. Even if Mance wasn't in the Watch yet and he ever went South (which i dobut he did) how could he had sex with her?

I've read so many Mance theories today that I think my head is about to explode.

I've reado about Mance being a hidden Targ, a hidden Stark, both (??), Rickard's son, the son of Ned's mum, Aegon's and Bloodraven. Now he's also Jon's dad.7

EDIT: I like the theory though. I really do. Of course, this would make for some awkward scenes

Yes, the logistics of how this encounter would've gone down are difficult to deduce. But then again, how much do we really know about Lyanna?

[BrosBeforeSnows]

& if anyone is Bael the Bard come again it's Rhaegar not Mance. He gave Lyanna winter roses then "stole" her.

True... except for the whole "King Beyond the Wall" part, and having his invasion thwarted by his own son.