[ADwD Spoilers] Jaime & Bran

[BrosBeforeSnows]

I've been kicking the tires around on this for a while, but over the years I've become convinced, especially after reading the Dunk & Egg stories recently, that the entire point of this story is redemption/corruption, and history repeating itself. The way I see it unfolding is like this:

Bran and Jaime are really the two main characters in the series, rather than Jon Snow and Dany, as most everyone believes.

Jaime is Azor Ahai reborn, and yes, he has many faults, but so did Azor Ahai (namely, murdering his wife to forge his sword, plus who knows what else).

The prophecy: "When the red star bleeds and darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt".

Smoke: The steam bath he shared with Brienne after his hand was cut off (baths in Westeros are heated with fire, mind you). The bath was so hot Jaime nearly passed out. Keep in mind, hot baths are something the two main Targaryen characters from the two sets of stories are known for taking (i.e. Dany & Egg).

Salt: Dinner he shared with Roose Bolton (i.e. sharing the salt, which is what "guest rights" and sharing dinner with someone is called in Westerosi culture) when he was released from captivity and spared his life (i.e. reborn). Jaime had no idea what would happen to him, and expected he might be executed. Instead, Roose released him from captivity and returned him to his "father", giving him his life back anew. Given his life-altering hand amputation, he had been figuratively and literally "reborn" by that point.

Red Star Bleeds: Oberyn Martell (sigil of House Martell is a Red Star) dies in mortal combat with Gregor Clegane, which, in effect, condemned Tyrion to death. This lead Jaime to free Tyrion from prison, which in turn led Tyrion to reveal the truth about Cersei to Jaime (i.e. revelation). All of this combined has transformed Jaime from a seemingly villainous character, to one who is beginning to right his path and redeem himself (and when you think about it, he had moments in his past where he practically SAVED THE WORLD... figuratively).

To Wake Dragons from Stone: Jaime & Cersei are hidden Targaryens due to the rape of their mother, Joanna, by the Mad King Aerys: To wake Dragons (i.e. Targaryens) from Stone (i.e. Casterly Rock). Dragons symbolize the Targs, and stone symbolize "The Rock". Barristan admits to Dany in ADwD that Aerys was obsessed with Tywin's wife, which must be foreshadowing something, IMO. And when you consider that Jaime & Cersei naturally took to the Targ tradition of brother-on-sister incest, it starts to make sense. They both have hair of "spun gold", much like the Targs, and their stories closely mirror those of their Targ forbearers (i.e. Jaime & Brienne almost exactly mirror Dunk & Egg; Brienne carries the shield of Dunk, Jaime shaves his head so he won't be recognized, and even calls her "thick as a castle wall" on several occasions, most notably when he shares the steam bath with her during his "transformation" into Azor Ahai). Cersei, on the other hand, closely mirrors her father Aerys's path to madness. She is in fact her father's daughter, like she so desperately wants to be, but her father isn't the man she thinks he is (i.e. Tyrion is Tywin's only true son, to his chagrin).

Conversely, Bran is the "Great Other", the "Dark Lord", the "anti-Azor Ahai". Bloodraven is behind the reemergence of the White Walkers, and is teaching Bran to control them. So, when the series is over, people will look in hindsight and say, "It's a shame Jaime didn't kill Bran when he had the chance" (GRRM likes to play mind games like that). As opposed to Jaime's arc of redemption, Bran is headed down an arc of corruption, which is actually quite realistic given the circumstances. Any child who went through what Bran did would certainly be traumatized for the rest of their life, and prone to bad influence. After cannibalizing his good friend Jojen, who essentially saved his life numerous times, he's already started down the path of corruption, unbeknownst to him.

Bloodraven, and the Children of the Forest, are actually a sinister force, and are not quite the "friends to humanity" that they seem to be. The First Men AND the Andals fought them and cut down their weirwood trees for a reason, and Bloodraven is embittered toward the world, having been born an albino, and essentially persecuted and ridiculed his entire life (and no, he's not the happy-go-lucky guy that Tyrion is).

Crows also symbolize death in the world of Westeros (i.e. A Feast For Crows) and it is no coincidence that Bloodraven chose to communicate to Bran as the 3-Eyed Crow. In sum, BR and the COTF will corrupt Bran, since he is so vulnerable and susceptible to their influence. And since his powers are so much stronger than Bloodraven's, he will eventually be powerful enough to lead the Others in war against the realm of humans.

Jaime, in the end, will be forced to fight Bran once again, but this time the roles will be reversed (Jaime's the protagonist, and Bran is the antagonist). They will both have been transformed since their last encounter (Bran became a cripple, and Jaime lost his sword hand), but one will have gone bad because of it, whereas the other changed his life for the better.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am. Discuss amongst yourselves...

[Capon Breath]

To Wake Dragons from Stone: Jaime & Cersei are hidden Targaryens due to the rape of their mother, Joanna, by the Mad King Aerys: To wake Dragons (i.e. Targaryens) from Stone (i.e. Casterly Rock). Dragons symbolize the Targs, and stone symbolize "The Rock". Barristan admits to Dany in ADwD that Aerys was obsessed with Tywin's wife, which must be foreshadowing something, IMO. And when you consider that Jaime & Cersei naturally took to the Targ tradition of brother-on-sister incest, it starts to make sense. They both have hair of "spun gold", much like the Targs, and their stories closely mirror those of their Targ forbearers (i.e. Jaime & Brienne almost exactly mirror Dunk & Egg; Brienne carries the shield of Dunk, Jaime shaves his head so he won't be recognized, and even calls her "thick as a castle wall" on several occasions, most notably when he shares the steam bath with her during his "transformation" into Azor Ahai). Cersei, on the other hand, closely mirrors her father Aerys's path to madness. She is in fact her father's daughter, like she so desperately wants to be, but her father isn't the man she thinks he is (i.e. Tyrion is Tywin's only true son, to his chagrin).

In ADWD Doesnt Barristan also mention "Liberties your father took during the bedding" (paraphrase) to Dany when talking about Tywin.

I lose track of the characters and dont have th book to hand.

[Dayne's Sword]

i like your dunk and brienne link. i said years ago she is Dunk's decendent. i missed the thick as a castle wall nod. good spot.

""It's a shame Jaime didn't kill Bran when he had the chance" (GRRM likes to play mind games like that)."

if that turns out to be true? bloody nora!

[the Scorpion Knight]

I tought Bloodraven might made Bran forget who threw him because they Need to work together?

[brashcandy]

@Brosbeforesnows

I like your theory on the basis that it's well thought out, and creative :) but there are a couple things I don't believe:

- Jaime and Cersei as the mad king's bastards - a little too convenient for my sake - Not all the Targs were incestuous, and Tywin, although he wasn't crazy mad like Aerys, was still ruthless and cruel, making him the perfect father for Cersei. Plus taking liberties during a bedding doesn't equate to actually sleeping with someone, unless he raped Johanna afterwards or they had a secret affair.

- I actually think that Jaime hasn't been reborn yet. Sure he's lost his hand, and he may be on a something of a redemption arc, but he hasn't reached there yet. Perhaps we'll see his true rebirth later on in the series, especially now that he's gone off with Brienne in the last book.

- Bran as an antagonist is possible, but I don't see it happening. If Bloodraven is really behind the emergence of the Others, then Bran's stronger powers will probably be used to defeat them. Perhaps he'll learn something vital via the weirwood spying network and might intervene in the past somehow thereby changing the present.

I must say though that Jaime as Azor Ahai is possible - especially the nice bit about simultaneously forging the sword through a lion and his beloved Nissa Nissa all via Cersei.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Can't speak to the Dunk & Egg stories since I've not yet done my due diligence on them... though I need to....

But as I've said on other threads, I, too, believe there is compelling evidence for Jaime as AA. IMO, there's no point to his whole story of redemption if it doesn't lead somewhere important to the series as a whole. Since I also see him as the #1 candidate for the valonqar, and AA plunges his sword into a lion and the woman he loves, those bits fit... and Ice/Oathkeeper is dying for some major, pivotal action.

But let's not forget Jaime's dream, where he and Brienne wield swords of fire in water, water being another thing AA sinks his sword into. In the end his sword runs out of flame but hers does not. And furthermore, Oathkeeper technically belongs to her, now. Of late I've been wondering if she might not be a better candidate for AA; Jaime as valonqar offs Cersei, but Brienne as AA eventually offs Jaime, who's sacrificial death leads to Lightbringer's rebirth. He is a lion, and Brienne definitely loves him... and his death would have to be a sacrifice to happen at her hands, or perhaps a mercy-killing. I agree with many posters that it's likely Jaime and Cersei go out together. If they are Aerys' bastards, and Cersei's transformation to her father is completed and she attempts to unleash a plague of wildfire, Jaime could kill her but be horribly burned in the process, and bound to die, and Brienne's killing of him, taking place in smoke and fire, could be to spare him the pain of dying slowly... remember he said of Bran "He will be a cripple...Worse than a cripple. A grotesque. Give me a good clean death."

Just some thoughts... I find this theory very interesting... not sure I can see Bran turning to the dark side, though... but there is definitely something creepy about those CotF... hmmmm

[Capon Breath]

Plus taking liberties during a bedding doesn't equate to actually sleeping with someone, unless he raped Johanna afterwards or they had a secret affair.

True - but what does it equate too? I from what we know of a bedding it involves stripping naked and assorted "prodding & pokings!" so taking a liberty in something that is already fairly bawdy is likely to be reasonably major?

[brashcandy]

True - but what does it equate too? I from what we know of a bedding it involves stripping naked and assorted "prodding & pokings!" so taking a liberty in something that is already fairly bawdy is likely to be reasonably major?

At the risk of getting graphic, maybe he slipped a finger inside her, or fondled her breasts for too long. I just don't see where the opportunity would have allowed for actual intercourse.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

At the risk of getting graphic, maybe he slipped a finger inside her, or fondled her breasts for too long. I just don't see where the opportunity would have allowed for actual intercourse.

Maybe not, but that doesn't mean sex didn't happen between them at some other time or place, perhaps prompted by Aerys' desire for her awakened during this bedding...

[Free Northman]

No.

Very creative, but simply too far fetched.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

No.

Very creative, but simply too far fetched.

Why? I mean, what exactly do you take issue with? Aerys got around, didn't he? And he was king. I don't think it inconceivable that he might have had Joanna at some point, although I would doubt it would have happened after the wedding, but who knows? There was great enmity between Aerys and Tywin... it's not implausible that it had something to do with Joanna- among other reasons- whom we know Tywin loved deeply.

[Free Northman]

Why? I mean, what exactly do you take issue with? Aerys got around, didn't he? And he was king. I don't think it inconceivable that he might have had Joanna at some point, although I would doubt it would have happened after the wedding, but who knows? There was great enmity between Aerys and Tywin... it's not implausible that it had something to do with Joanna- among other reasons- whom we know Tywin loved deeply.

Aerys did get it on with Joanna. The result was Tyrion.

Hence the huge irony in all the comments like "Tyrion is your father's son, not you Jaime", by Jaime's aunt and "You are not my son". by Tywin to Tyrion etc etc.

As for Bran and the Old Gods being evil, no, no, no. No way. That would go against the entire story, and make the Direwolves the agents of evil as well. That would simply alienate a large part of the readership, not to mention the viewership of the TV series.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Aerys did get it on with Joanna. The result was Tyrion.

Hence the huge irony in all the comments like "Tyrion is your father's son, not you Jaime", by Jaime's aunt and "You are not my son". by Tywin to Tyrion etc etc.

Got it. I go back and forth on which of Tywin's children may not be his. Those comments can be read straight or ironically, along with Tyrion telling Tywin, "I believe I'm you writ small." Tyrion being Aerys' would allow him the ability to tame/ride dragons, being a Targ, which seems a distinct possibility. Tywin's hatred of Tyrion being based on more than his dwarfism and Joanna's death in birthing him- the fact that she birthed him from Aerys- could substantiate your claim.

Can't deny Cersei's queer draw to wildfire and the ecstasy she experiences at the burning of the Tower of the Hand, though, although we haven't seen her routinely drawn to or thinking about fire the way Aerys did, and she and Jaime do have those green Lannister eyes. But it may be Genna's comment means that she knows more than she's letting on about Aerys and Joanna. And, of course, the whole incest theme is a Targ thing.

As for Bran and the Old Gods being evil, no, no, no. No way. That would go against the entire story, and make the Direwolves the agents of evil as well. That would simply alienate a large part of the readership, not to mention the viewership of the TV series.

:agree:

[Prince of Winterfell]

I don't think Tyrion is AA, although he could be one of the Heads of the Dragon. I for one am getting sick of hidden Targs, so I'm going to put my faith in GRRM's claim that the heads of the dragon do not have to be Targaryens.

I don't think Tyrion is a Targaryen, but I think that Jaime is. I think that Tyrion's the red herring, and the character that people WANT to see be a Targaryen. Jaime has all the factors of Azor Ahai in the palm of his hand, and it will be plain as day once he plunges Oathkeeper through Cersei's bitch heart.

Bran, on the other hand, it would kill me to see turn evil. I don't sense the malevolence the rest of the readers do in the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven. I see Bloodraven as a good mentor with an interesting history. But then again, that could be exactly why GRRM makes Bran the antagonist. There is nothing he loves more than throwing our expectations in our face, and killing off our favorite characters... Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Renly Baratheon.. Everyone that we love and have high hopes for, he sees fit to kill. I think that Bran could go either way at this point.

[Free Northman]

I don't think Tyrion is AA, although he could be one of the Heads of the Dragon. I for one am getting sick of hidden Targs, so I'm going to put my faith in GRRM's claim that the heads of the dragon do not have to be Targaryens.

I don't think Tyrion is a Targaryen, but I think that Jaime is. I think that Tyrion's the red herring, and the character that people WANT to see be a Targaryen. Jaime has all the factors of Azor Ahai in the palm of his hand, and it will be plain as day once he plunges Oathkeeper through Cersei's bitch heart.

Bran, on the other hand, it would kill me to see turn evil. I don't sense the malevolence the rest of the readers do in the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven. I see Bloodraven as a good mentor with an interesting history. But then again, that could be exactly why GRRM makes Bran the antagonist. There is nothing he loves more than throwing our expectations in our face, and killing off our favorite characters... Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Renly Baratheon.. Everyone that we love and have high hopes for, he sees fit to kill. I think that Bran could go either way at this point.

If your favourite character has been Arya, on the other hand, right from the start, then all these ideas about Martin turning your hopes upside down will indeed sound strange to you. If you're an Arya fan then these books have just been one giant fun fest of adventure, daring escapes, vengeance and taking fate by the scruff of the neck and making it dance to your tune.

For Arya fans like me these novels are a constant joy, and there's no reason to think it's suddenly going to turn melancholy.

Sorry to Eddard, Robb and Renly fans. But let's face it, the lead characters of this story was always designed to be Jon, Bran, Arya, Daenerys and Tyrion, with Jaime, Sansa and Eddard playing supporting roles only.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Sorry to Eddard, Robb and Renly fans. But let's face it, the lead characters of this story was always designed to be Jon, Bran, Arya, Daenerys and Tyrion, with Jaime, Sansa and Eddard playing supporting roles only.

Agreed on everyone but Jaime. Far too much invested in the Jaime/Brienne dynamic duo and his path of redemption at this point, IMO.

[Free Northman]

Agreed on everyone but Jaime. Far too much invested in the Jaime/Brienne dynamic duo and his path of redemption at this point, IMO.

The rule is simple.

Anyone who wasn't a point of view character in the first book isn't a main character. The significance of the supporting characters vary signficantly though, with someone like Jaime being far more important than someone like Euron, or Victarion for example, but he is still a supporting character.

The main protagonists were all introduced in Game of Thrones, as POV characters.

[A Mallister]

I like this theory very much. I have always suspected the twins to be bastards of Aerys taking "liberties" and am extremely weary of the Children of the Forest and suspect them to be in league with the Others. I find this theory and research behind it (THANK YOU) to help solidify my thoughts on this.

I really liked the allusion to Dunk and Egg with Brienne and Jaime too. That Brienne is Jaime's example of a "true" knight like Dunk was to Egg is great.

[King Cheops]

I'm definitely on board with the theory of Jaime as AA. Although I think that he has already sacrificed his Nissa Nissa when he tossed Cersei's plea letter into the fire (to represent his flaming sword?). In essence he has given up everything he previously was at that point. His rebirth as AA will likely happen with Dondarrion's former band which should occur in TWoW.

[Free Northman]

I'm definitely on board with the theory of Jaime as AA. Although I think that he has already sacrificed his Nissa Nissa when he tossed Cersei's plea letter into the fire (to represent his flaming sword?). In essence he has given up everything he previously was at that point. His rebirth as AA will likely happen with Dondarrion's former band which should occur in TWoW.

If Jaime is Azor Ahai then Martin is simply ripping off David Gemmell's Morningstar, where the selfish, narcicistic rogue Jarek Mace reluctantly becomes the prophecied hero, Rabain, and saves his people from anihilation through a galant and uncharacteristic act of self sacrifice.

That theme is so old.