[ADwD Spoilers] Jaime & Bran

[Rickon is FIERCE]

The rule is simple.

Anyone who wasn't a point of view character in the first book isn't a main character. The significance of the supporting characters vary signficantly though, with someone like Jaime being far more important than someone like Euron, or Victarion for example, but he is still a supporting character.

The main protagonists were all introduced in Game of Thrones, as POV characters.

Once again, in general, I agree with you on that. My suspicion is that when George started writing, he had a specific plot outline in mind, and probably hasn't/won't stray from it very much. (This plot having the same cast of main characters you initially named.) Yet found, as he wrote, that Jaime became a fascinating character with big possibilities, and rather liked where he was going with him, and decided to make more out of him than he had originally planned. It happens. After all, we never hear a thing about AA or the Prince what was Promised in AGOT (someone let me know if I'm wrong on that). One could make the argument that they were added later, after George decided he wanted to take Jaime farther than originally planned.

EDIT: Just to add, I don't see Jaime as PTWP, just AA; I think they may be two different people.

[Free Northman]

Once again, in general, I agree with you on that. My suspicion is that when George started writing, he had a specific plot outline in mind, and probably hasn't/won't stray from it very much. (This plot having the same cast of main characters you initially named.) Yet found, as he wrote, that Jaime became a fascinating character with big possibilities, and rather liked where he was going with him, and decided to make more out of him than he had originally planned. It happens. After all, we never hear a thing about AA or the Prince what was Promised in AGOT (someone let me know if I'm wrong on that). One could make the argument that they were added later, after George decided he wanted to take Jaime farther than originally planned.

EDIT: Just to add, I don't see Jaime as PTWP, just AA; I think they may be two different people.

Or maybe Martin just likes manipulating readers by first making them hate a character, and then confusing them by giving said character witty punchlines and cool put downs to other disliked characters, and then making him do uncharacteristically unselfish deeds to win people over to his side.

Well I'm not that easily manipulated, Mr. Martin.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Or maybe Martin just likes manipulating readers by first making them hate a character, and then confusing them by giving said character witty punchlines and cool put downs to other disliked characters, and then making him do uncharacteristically unselfish deeds to win people over to his side.

Well I'm not that easily manipulated, Mr. Martin.

Your prediction on what will become of Jaime? I'm curious...

[A Mallister]

From what I remember of English from high school and college, the basic outline of a story requires an inciting incident. I would argue that for GoT the inciting incident was Jaime pushing Bran from the tower.

Disregarding the prologue and the execution Ned performs (the both of which I lump together), Bran's falling starts everything. Sure, Arryn was killed which caused Ned to become Hand but Catelyn's discovery of the lock of blond hair in the tower and the attempted asassination of Bran basically solidified the Starks' belief (though wrong) that the Lannister's were responsible for all evil in Westeros.

Bran was supposed to go to King's Landing with his father and sisters. What would have happened had he?

If this is the inciting incident, as I believe it is, the characters involved, Jaime and Bran, are the main characters of the series.

[Theo1]

I appreciate the thought out and supported theory. Nice work. Even if it is not correct, I like the work you do to think about it and develop it. In response, what do you get? The criticisms are based on feelings and conclusions, and not very thought out. So, keep fired up and support your take on this.

It sure sounds like C and J are targs. Tywin was obviously messed up in his relation to women. C is the crazy targ and Jamie is actually a duty-bound and noble knight (with the one exception of pushing an 8 year old out of a window to protect him and his true love). They were not behind John As death, he is a pragmatic and tough commander, and feels most comfortable (either between C's legs) or with his men in the field. He knows his limitations andstrengths. I think he is one of the most interesting and consistent characters in the book, you just get to know him more with his povs.

I would like to know more and be more convinced about him being aa. Could the original poster elaboate? I really like the dunk and egg references. I like that ice could become light bringer (ice and fire), so doe he kill C or B in order to become aa? I do not think he has been transformed yet, and as I said before still a very consistent character in a normal trajectory.

I also think your theory should be developed in the following way. I think you should advance this theory, but I think you should refute the John is AA theory at the same time.

Love to see you keep working on this.

[Free Northman]

Your prediction on what will become of Jaime? I'm curious...

There's no doubt that Martin has him on course for a major redemptive arc. I don't agree with it, because the type of person Jaime is is actually far more evil than someone like the Hound, who has a wounded soul. Jaime is simply a complete narcicist, and though I'm no pscyhologist, I'm not familiar with such people suddenly having a change of heart.

In any case, Jaime is on course to becoming "honourable" whatever that means in his world. I think he is going to be captured or put in some kind of compromised position when he encounters Catelyn. And he will then somehow be forced to go North, or maybe through Bran's intervention be saved - which would be the ultimate irony.

The point is, he will end up serving Jon in some way, maybe as the first of his Kingsguard. Wouldn't that be ironic. In the process, he will probably end up killing Cersei in defense of King Jon Targaryen's life at the end of the series.

And then at the end of it all, he may well be killed by Arya, as she runs through her ever growing little hit list. Because as the Septon said, while a man may receive forgiveness for past sins by repenting, he must nevertheless still be punished for them. And Jaime's sins are grievous indeed.

[Theo1]

And on your connection to Dunk, there is some good thought and argument on some threads that B is a descendant of dunk, and if J is related to Egg, you have the analogy of true night mentoring another as an even stronger analogy

[Ser Zartan]

I like the theory because it would be a great twist. One doubt I have is that Jaime didn't become a POV character until the third book. He's only a supporting character in the first and barely in the second at all. Surely the eventual protagonist would have had a larger role and been a POV from the start? Unless this is another expectation GRRM is using against us.

[Theo1]

Willing to go either way on the issue of Jamie, so drop some specific knowledge on me please. Other than his action toward bran in the first book, where is the evidence of J being a bad guy? Is he even a narcissist? Narcissism and self-centeredness are quite different things. Narcicists lack empathy, yet Jamie does care about his brother, B, even C (who is the DSM guide's textbook case of someone with narcissistic personality disorder - I dated one once and had to figure this all out the hard way ;) ). Jamie cares about the honor of his role in the kings guard, he knows, dislikes, and is frustrated at being labeled as kings layer. Although this was a breaking of his vows, the mad king was off his rocker and tyranicide has a long history of moral justification. He considered this one of his most noble acts.

This is the beauty and challenge and genius of martin's POV style. Almost all of what we know about Jamie, our first impressions, are from others. For example, Catalyn who falsely believes they killed John A. The false thought that J my have tried to have a wounded bran assassinated. Another example is a brooding and glum essays stark who was put off by jamie's arrogance.

So, fire his evil or narcissistic acts out for me and I would love to evaluate and debate them(with n open mind of course). I think there is less redemption than reader-based understanding in Jamie's character.

[brashcandy]

If Jaime is Azor Ahai then Martin is simply ripping off David Gemmell's Morningstar, where the selfish, narcicistic rogue Jarek Mace reluctantly becomes the prophecied hero, Rabain, and saves his people from anihilation through a galant and uncharacteristic act of self sacrifice.

That theme is so old.

Jaime already had his dubious saviour moment 15 yrs ago. I agree his time is up. I like the idea of him doing real penance to Bran face to face, or even Bran saving him from Uncat's wrath, and then having him fade away. I don't think he's the valonquar, and I do think Oathkeeper will be passed unto Sandor Clegane who's been Sansa's real protector throughout all of this.

Sorry to Eddard, Robb and Renly fans. But let's face it, the lead characters of this story was always designed to be Jon, Bran, Arya, Daenerys and Tyrion, with Jaime, Sansa and Eddard playing supporting roles only.

This I don't get. How in the world do you see Sansa as playing a supportive role only? She is one of the principal characters in the series and will probably be a Queen by the time the series is over.

[Theo1]

Sorry, but there is also something, dare I say, touching in jamie's memory of Rheagar's last words and actions toward him before riding off and having his chest caved in by a jealous and arrogant Robert.

R seemed like a noble and thoughtful prince, and was ready to do something big in relation to his crazy dad and/or bust out the 'by the way I am married to a startk too and we are going to have a little bundle of ice and fire on the way for the kingdom."

Jamie seems devoted to those he loves, whether he should love them or not is not a judgment for us to make. He takes his duties to the realm seriously. He cares about his men. He is an ultimate pragmatist when it comes to battle. He doesn't even take himself too seriously (his own internal thoughts are telling). Narcicists cannot take any criticism and lash out (some personal baggage here)' and are not very self-reflective.

[Free Northman]

This thoughtful Jaime you refer to is the split personality Jaime. This is not the one who said: "There are no men like me, there is only me"

This is not the Jaime who casually threw a boy out a window to his intended death while uttering a flippant comment.

This is not the Jaime who was willing to let the realm go to hell just so he could continue having sex with his twin sister.

This is not the Jaime who casually has all of Eddard's men killed just to "teach him a lesson".

No, the Jaime you are referring to is a totally different person inhabiting the body of Jaime Lannister.

The early depictions we got of Jaime was not simply because we saw him through the eyes of his enemies. The early impressions were because of real things he did and said, and the way in which he did and said them.

The fact is, the internal Jaime we get to meet in Book 3 does not fit with the external Jaime portrayed in Books 1 and 2.

People praise Martin for doing such a "fine" job of making Jaime a complicated character.

Well, while I love Martin's work, I beg to disagree in this instance. It does not take particular skill to make someone seem complex by simply creating a totally new personality for the same character when you want to change how people perceive him.

There is no logical consistency between the "old" Jaime and the "new". Martin pulled a fast one on most of you. The Jaime that could throw a child out of a window would not despise the woman who arranged the betrayal and murder of that same boy's brother at his own wedding, in cahoots with Jaime's own father to boot.

The Jaime who had Jory killed would not care about Brienne, or about Pretty Pia being raped.

That Jaime would laugh and walk off as Raff the Sweetling was having his way with Pia.

Nope, Jaime's transformation was either a Damascus experience of biblical proportions - and Martin has indicated no supernatural interference or psychiatric event of that magnitude - or it is simply not plausible that the same character would act so differently over the course of the series.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I would like to know more and be more convinced about him being aa. Could the original poster elaboate? I really like the dunk and egg references. I like that ice could become light bringer (ice and fire), so doe he kill C or B in order to become aa? I do not think he has been transformed yet, and as I said before still a very consistent character in a normal trajectory.

See my post #6 for Jaime as AA... I've since got more to add, IIRC, but more on that later, when time allows....

[MtnLion]

Free Northman has a point. I saw the transformation, and it seemed too sudden. It appears that Brienne was supposed to be the foundation of the change in Jaime, but I had to attribute it to his newfound humility when he lost his (only) skill (hand). That still did not seem to be enough of a foundation for the extent of the change, to me. Perhaps he decided for once in his life he was going to live up to his word, and fetch Lady Catelyn her daughters. At least then he would have a positive entry in the White Book.

[Capon Breath]

Conversely, Bran is the "Great Other", the "Dark Lord", the "anti-Azor Ahai". Bloodraven is behind the reemergence of the White Walkers, and is teaching Bran to control them. So, when the series is over, people will look in hindsight and say, "It's a shame Jaime didn't kill Bran when he had the chance" (GRRM likes to play mind games like that). As opposed to Jaime's arc of redemption, Bran is headed down an arc of corruption, which is actually quite realistic given the circumstances. Any child who went through what Bran did would certainly be traumatized for the rest of their life, and prone to bad influence. After cannibalizing his good friend Jojen, who essentially saved his life numerous times, he's already started down the path of corruption, unbeknownst to him.

Havent read dunk & egg so dont feel qualified to comment on that part of the theor, one thing i need more insight into is what you think BR brings to the White Walker / cotf evil party? Im not convinced he is either a stronger magician than any given cotf or a stronger warrior than any given white walker so it seems a unqualified leap of faith that he would somehow now control them.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

See my post #6 for Jaime as AA... I've since got more to add, IIRC, but more on that later, when time allows....

Time has allowed... though I'm not the OP, here's more on my Jaime as AA theory from the Lannister siblings thread, FWIW:

My theory on Cersei is she attempts to "burn them all" and Jaime, the valonqar, takes care of that problem a la Aerys (nice parallel, and the twins being Aerys' bastards seems like a good fit, but they do have those green Lannister eyes, so IDK...). Jaime is, however, burned in the process, and Brienne- AA- kills him mercifully with Ice/Oathkeeper/Lightbringer, in the midst of the smoke and flames (b/c I think there's enough evidence in the text to substantiate the twins going out together). In Jaime's fever dream he and Brienne carry flaming swords in a cave of water (AA's sword was first plunged into water), but his sword dies and hers does not. Her killing Jaime would mean plunging her sword into a lion and the man she loves, two more points in the AA story. However, in the dream, technically Jaime's sword is the only one actually plunged into the water, so he may be AA after all, and his offing of Cersei fulfills the sword into the lion/woman you love line...

All of this assuming, of course, that the AA rebirth pretty strictly parallels the story of the original AA, which is open for speculation...

[jon rr stark]

Jamie as AA is a thought worth considering and jamie and cersei being aegons bastards more likely than tyrion. Although I think its all nonsense. Bran being a baddie no chance. The CotF are neither for or against humanity they are for themselves there battleing the others because the others would destroy all other lifeforms.

[3 Headed Direwolf]

I really like this theory especially for it's originality but I don't think it's going to happen. I think Jamie will ultimately die, maybe in some sort of honorable mannerl but he'll still die. I also have a feeling Tyrion will kill Cersei but in the end Jamie ends up kills Tyrion for it.

[The Sword of the Morning.]

This thoughtful Jaime you refer to is the split personality Jaime. This is not the one who said: "There are no men like me, there is only me"

This is not the Jaime who casually threw a boy out a window to his intended death while uttering a flippant comment.

This is not the Jaime who was willing to let the realm go to hell just so he could continue having sex with his twin sister.

This is not the Jaime who casually has all of Eddard's men killed just to "teach him a lesson".

No, the Jaime you are referring to is a totally different person inhabiting the body of Jaime Lannister.

The early depictions we got of Jaime was not simply because we saw him through the eyes of his enemies. The early impressions were because of real things he did and said, and the way in which he did and said them.

The fact is, the internal Jaime we get to meet in Book 3 does not fit with the external Jaime portrayed in Books 1 and 2.

People praise Martin for doing such a "fine" job of making Jaime a complicated character.

Well, while I love Martin's work, I beg to disagree in this instance. It does not take particular skill to make someone seem complex by simply creating a totally new personality for the same character when you want to change how people perceive him.

There is no logical consistency between the "old" Jaime and the "new". Martin pulled a fast one on most of you. The Jaime that could throw a child out of a window would not despise the woman who arranged the betrayal and murder of that same boy's brother at his own wedding, in cahoots with Jaime's own father to boot.

The Jaime who had Jory killed would not care about Brienne, or about Pretty Pia being raped.

That Jaime would laugh and walk off as Raff the Sweetling was having his way with Pia.

Nope, Jaime's transformation was either a Damascus experience of biblical proportions - and Martin has indicated no supernatural interference or psychiatric event of that magnitude - or it is simply not plausible that the same character would act so differently over the course of the series.

I disagree to a certain extent. While I think Jaime has changed somewhat since the earlier books I do not altogether think he was as evil as people initially believe. Each of those first few examples you presented had something in common. He did those things for the people he loved.

Yes, he threw Bran out of a window. He did that because he loved Cercsei and didn't want them to be found out which would result in not only his death but hers and his children as well.

He did in fact Kill Ned's men to teach him a lesson. However, he did so because he believed Ned had ordered his wife to take Tyrion which looked as if it would lead to Tyrion's death.

So while he did to terrible things in the first books he did them all for the people he loved. This does not excuse his actions but it does show that Jaime wasn't as terrible as he seemed and that there was in fact a shadow of his redeemed self in him all along. The biggest problem I see with the old Jaime is not that he was an incredibly evil person. Rather I see him as somebody who was doing things for "right" reasons, such as love or loyalty to his family, however he was doing them for the wrong people.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

This thoughtful Jaime you refer to is the split personality Jaime. This is not the one who said: "There are no men like me, there is only me"

This is not the Jaime who casually threw a boy out a window to his intended death while uttering a flippant comment.

I think we all read it that way at the time; but later information (such as his realization of how twisted it was that he would have maimed or killed Arya had he found her first on the Kingsroad b/c Cersei wanted it) necessitates a reevaluation of that comment; it's a running theme on the decisions he's made in his life.

This is not the Jaime who was willing to let the realm go to hell just so he could continue having sex with his twin sister.

It wasn't just sex. He stayed faithful to her, though he desired others (Pia, for one). He asked her to marry him. True, he would've let the realm rot if it meant he got to be with Cersei-- as her husband ("the things I do for love").

This is not the Jaime who casually has all of Eddard's men killed just to "teach him a lesson".

I don't think it was casual at all. He wanted his brother back..."the things I do for love"

I think this is a great discussion to have. But in all honesty I have to say the tide started turning for me the very first time we saw Jaime get to talk for any length of time... when Catelyn comes to free him from his cell, so I have to disagree that he undergoes an unbelievable transformation starting with Storm of Swords. The Jaime in the cell, prefigured the Jaime we have now, IMO. He wants to know if Cersei and Tyrion are still alive. His descriptions of Rickard and Brandon's deaths are introductions into the longer explanation he gives to Brienne later in the series, and he tells Cat he tried to, as he says in later books, "go away inside himself" by thinking of Cersei while the Starks died-- because it was deeply disturbing to him, then and now. Does he act like a cocky dick (haha) in that scene? Yes. That's what everyone expects of him. And up until he met Brienne, he felt no motivation to open up the conflict inside him. There's something about her, perhaps the fact that she's the only one who's ever stood by him and really looked out for him, even if it was originally in service to the enemy. His comments about Brienne's touch being "gentler than Cersei's" (when he collapses in the bathing scene) and "warm" (in his fever dream) give credence to this notion... b/c he's always known deep down that Cersei never really had his welfare at heart, though he gave up much and more for her.