[ADwD Spoilers] Jaime & Bran

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I disagree to a certain extent. While I think Jaime has changed somewhat since the earlier books I do not altogether think he was as evil as people initially believe. Each of those first few examples you presented had something in common. He did those things for the people he loved.

Yes, he threw Bran out of a window. He did that because he loved Cercsei and didn't want them to be found out which would result in not only his death but hers and his children as well.

He did in fact Kill Ned's men to teach him a lesson. However, he did so because he believed Ned had ordered his wife to take Tyrion which looked as if it would lead to Tyrion's death.

So while he did to terrible things in the first books he did them all for the people he loved. This does not excuse his actions but it does show that Jaime wasn't as terrible as he seemed and that there was in fact a shadow of his redeemed self in him all along. The biggest problem I see with the old Jaime is not that he was an incredibly evil person. Rather I see him as somebody who was doing things for "right" reasons, such as love or loyalty to his family, however he was doing them for the wrong people.

Or perhaps doing the wrong things for the right reasons.

Sorry to somewhat echo your post...we must have been writing at the same time...

[Evamitchelle]

This thoughtful Jaime you refer to is the split personality Jaime. This is not the one who said: "There are no men like me, there is only me"

This is not the Jaime who casually threw a boy out a window to his intended death while uttering a flippant comment.

I've seen a lot of people refer to "The things I do for love" as a flippant or funny line and I just don't see it. I mean, the adjective used to describe the way he says that line is "loathing". How exactly is that supposed to be an indication that he's joking about pushing Bran out that window ? To me the only implication I can gather from that line is that Jaime does not actually want to kill Bran but that he feels obligated to to preserve his lover's life as well as his own (also the kids but he doesn't think much about them at that point, since Cersei has pretty much banned him from forming any kind of relationship with them). This line gets dismissed so easily while it's really the foundation of his character, the one line that explains pretty much every one of his actions. He joined the KG and gave up Casterly Rock because he wanted to be close to Cersei, he gathered an army against the Riverlands/the North because he was trying to save his little brother from being murdered, he pushed Bran out that window because he didn't want Cersei (and himself, by extension) to die.

This is not the Jaime who was willing to let the realm go to hell just so he could continue having sex with his twin sister.

This too. People seem so quick to dismiss Jaime's very real feelings for Cersei as nothing more than a sexual attraction because she's his sister. Does it even matter than they're related ? The real moral problem in that relation is that she's married to the King, not that she's his twin sister. Jaime loves her, he wants to stay with her, that's a reaction a large numbers of characters in the series have had. Hell, this is not the first war that was started because of that star-crossed lover crap : the Rebellion pretty much all stemmed from the fact that Rhaegar abducted/eloped with Lyanna Stark besides being married and having fathered children with another woman. Then Robert got very jealous and did his best to wipe out the Targaryens from the face of the world. Wasn't the Blackfyre Rebellion fueled by a love triangle (Bittersteel/Shiera Seastar/Bloodraven) as well ? Pretty much every war in Westeros was started because of love.

This is not the Jaime who casually has all of Eddard's men killed just to "teach him a lesson".

This is probably his least justifiable act. But Ned just admitted to having ordered his little brother a prisoner for a crime Jaime knows Tyrion is innocent of, and which would have resulted in Tyrion's death had Bronn not been there at the right moment. If someone admitted to having kidnapped my little brother in my face, I'd be pretty pissed too.

No, the Jaime you are referring to is a totally different person inhabiting the body of Jaime Lannister.

The early depictions we got of Jaime was not simply because we saw him through the eyes of his enemies. The early impressions were because of real things he did and said, and the way in which he did and said them.

The fact is, the internal Jaime we get to meet in Book 3 does not fit with the external Jaime portrayed in Books 1 and 2.

People praise Martin for doing such a "fine" job of making Jaime a complicated character.

Well, while I love Martin's work, I beg to disagree in this instance. It does not take particular skill to make someone seem complex by simply creating a totally new personality for the same character when you want to change how people perceive him.

There is no logical consistency between the "old" Jaime and the "new". Martin pulled a fast one on most of you. The Jaime that could throw a child out of a window would not despise the woman who arranged the betrayal and murder of that same boy's brother at his own wedding, in cahoots with Jaime's own father to boot.

I really don't see how his scenes in AGoT and ACoK are inconsistent with his POV in ASoS. "The things I do for love" pretty much explains his entire character, and we got it in the first 50 pages of the first book. You get from Tyrion's POV not much later that everybody's always been terrible to him except Jaime. And of course one of the most important bit of characterization we get for Jaime is the dungeon scene in ACoK with Catelyn. And his behaviour there is totally consistent with his actions in ASoS. I actually started liking Jaime with that dungeon scene in Clash, not when I got his POV in Storm.

The Jaime who had Jory killed would not care about Brienne, or about Pretty Pia being raped.

That Jaime would laugh and walk off as Raff the Sweetling was having his way with Pia.

Jaime wanted to stop Aerys' rape of Rhaella when he was between 15-17. Seems consistent to me.

EDIT : It seems like we al started answering the same post at once.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I've seen a lot of people refer to "The things I do for love" as a flippant or funny line and I just don't see it. I mean, the adjective used to describe the way he says that line is "loathing". How exactly is that supposed to be an indication that he's joking about pushing Bran out that window ? To me the only implication I can gather from that line is that Jaime does not actually want to kill Bran but that he feels obligated to to preserve his lover's life as well as his own (also the kids but he doesn't think much about them at that point, since Cersei has pretty much banned him from forming any kind of relationship with them). This line gets dismissed so easily while it's really the foundation of his character, the one line that explains pretty much every one of his actions. He joined the KG and gave up Casterly Rock because he wanted to be close to Cersei, he gathered an army against the Riverlands/the North because he was trying to save his little brother from being murdered, he pushed Bran out that window because he didn't want Cersei (and himself, by extension) to die.

This too. People seem so quick to dismiss Jaime's very real feelings for Cersei as nothing more than a sexual attraction because she's his sister. Does it even matter than they're related ? The real moral problem in that relation is that she's married to the King, not that she's his twin sister. Jaime loves her, he wants to stay with her, that's a reaction a large numbers of characters in the series have had. Hell, this is not the first war that was started because of that star-crossed lover crap : the Rebellion pretty much all stemmed from the fact that Rhaegar abducted/eloped with Lyanna Stark besides being married and having fathered children with another woman. Then Robert got very jealous and did his best to wipe out the Targaryens from the face of the world. Wasn't the Blackfyre Rebellion fueled by a love triangle (Bittersteel/Shiera Seastar/Bloodraven) as well ? Pretty much every war in Westeros was started because of love.

This is probably his least justifiable act. But Ned just admitted to having ordered his little brother a prisoner for a crime Jaime knows Tyrion is innocent of, and which would have resulted in Tyrion's death had Bronn not been there at the right moment. If someone admitted to having kidnapped my little brother in my face, I'd be pretty pissed too.

I really don't see how his scenes in AGoT and ACoK are inconsistent with his POV in ASoS. "The things I do for love" pretty much explains his entire character, and we got it in the first 50 pages of the first book. You get from Tyrion's POV not much later that everybody's always been terrible to him except Jaime. And of course one of the most important bit of characterization we get for Jaime is the dungeon scene in ACoK with Catelyn. And his behaviour there is totally consistent with his actions in ASoS. I actually started liking Jaime with that dungeon scene in Clash, not when I got his POV in Storm.

Jaime wanted to stop Aerys' rape of Rhaella when he was between 15-17. Seems consistent to me.

EDIT : It seems like we al started answering the same post at once.

Hells yeah... GREAT post. EXACTLY my thoughts, said even better. :grouphug:

[brashcandy]

I've seen a lot of people refer to "The things I do for love" as a flippant or funny line and I just don't see it. I mean, the adjective used to describe the way he says that line is "loathing". How exactly is that supposed to be an indication that he's joking about pushing Bran out that window ? To me the only implication I can gather from that line is that Jaime does not actually want to kill Bran but that he feels obligated to to preserve his lover's life as well as his own (also the kids but he doesn't think much about them at that point, since Cersei has pretty much banned him from forming any kind of relationship with them). This line gets dismissed so easily while it's really the foundation of his character, the one line that explains pretty much every one of his actions. He joined the KG and gave up Casterly Rock because he wanted to be close to Cersei, he gathered an army against the Riverlands/the North because he was trying to save his little brother from being murdered, he pushed Bran out that window because he didn't want Cersei (and himself, by extension) to die.

The point is that there is no justification for trying to kill an innocent child that has caught you and your sister having sex. And when you say something like "the things I do for love" it is not only flippant, but downright cruel. Bran had a family that loved him too, and at that moment Jaime was a guest of that family. There were many other options he could have taken there, but he chose the most cowardly, inhumane one. Some people choose to defend it, but I really don't see how.

This too. People seem so quick to dismiss Jaime's very real feelings for Cersei as nothing more than a sexual attraction because she's his sister. Does it even matter than they're related ? The real moral problem in that relation is that she's married to the King, not that she's his twin sister. Jaime loves her, he wants to stay with her, that's a reaction a large numbers of characters in the series have had. Hell, this is not the first war that was started because of that star-crossed lover crap : the Rebellion pretty much all stemmed from the fact that Rhaegar abducted/eloped with Lyanna Stark besides being married and having fathered children with another woman. Then Robert got very jealous and did his best to wipe out the Targaryens from the face of the world. Wasn't the Blackfyre Rebellion fueled by a love triangle (Bittersteel/Shiera Seastar/Bloodraven) as well ? Pretty much every war in Westeros was started because of love.

The reason why people like myself claim that he was sexually obsessed with Cersei is because the text clearly supports it. Think of all the times we see Jaime and Cersei together in the series; he's either sleeping with her, now finished sleeping with her, in the process of trying to sleep with her, or thinking of sleeping with her. He loses his mind because Tyrion tells him she's sleeping with a couple men, and it causes him to desert her at the end of AFFC when she is in grave peril. I'm not speculating on whether he loved her truly or not, but it was an unhealthy sexual obsession on his part for certain.

This is probably his least justifiable act. But Ned just admitted to having ordered his little brother a prisoner for a crime Jaime knows Tyrion is innocent of, and which would have resulted in Tyrion's death had Bronn not been there at the right moment. If someone admitted to having kidnapped my little brother in my face, I'd be pretty pissed too.

Yes of course, Jaime is in a real position to get in a huff when he's just come from throwing Ned Stark's son out a window. He took advantage of the Starks' weakness at this point and as for caring so much about his little brother, he sure had no problem duping him with the whole Tysha affair.

I really don't see how his scenes in AGoT and ACoK are inconsistent with his POV in ASoS. "The things I do for love" pretty much explains his entire character, and we got it in the first 50 pages of the first book. You get from Tyrion's POV not much later that everybody's always been terrible to him except Jaime. And of course one of the most important bit of characterization we get for Jaime is the dungeon scene in ACoK with Catelyn. And his behaviour there is totally consistent with his actions in ASoS. I actually started liking Jaime with that dungeon scene in Clash, not when I got his POV in Storm.

They're inconsistent because "the things I do for love" reflects an extremely selfish, immoral individual who cares nothing much for anyone else but his sister, and for his brother. His motto doesn't extend to others. So when we see him actually giving a shit about Brienne or making a pledge to return Sansa Stark it raises eyebrows. And for all his "redemption" he has yet to express real sorrow for what he did to Bran.

Jaime wanted to stop Aerys' rape of Rhaella when he was between 15-17. Seems consistent to me.

This may be true, but for someone who seems to feel some sense of duty to stop abuses, he's been responsible for some of the worst in the book.

[MtnLion]

Rickon is FIERCE This has brought a fresh memory to mind for me. Tyrion has a mismatched set of eyes. I have been sensitive to mismatched eyes for this reason, and found the Shiera Seastar also had a set of mismatched eyes. Perhaps Tyrion killed Jaime's father, and Jaime killed Tyrion's father after all. That will definitely make Jaime the valonqar, too!

[Evamitchelle]

The point is that there is no justification for trying to kill an innocent child that has caught you and your sister having sex. And when you say something like "the things I do for love" it is not only flippant, but downright cruel. Bran had a family that loved him too, and at that moment Jaime was a guest of that family. There were many other options he could have taken there, but he chose the most cowardly, inhumane one. Some people choose to defend it, but I really don't see how.

Even Ned can rationalize Bran's attempted murder, and he's the boy's father. "'If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do ? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body?' He did not know. He prayed he never would." If Ned himself can understand why they tried to kill his son, I don't think it's that hard to find a semblance of a justification behind Jaime's actions. Bran learned that Cersei and Jaime were having an affair, telling anyone would have meant their deaths for treason, along that of their children, and possibly the rest of the Lannisters too because no one holds a grudge like Robert can. Jaime's motivation was probably more Cersei than his kids, though since he knows very well how much she loves their kids saving the kids is also related to Cersei in his mind. As for the line, he's not saying it to Ned and Cat's faces, it's not meant to be a sadistic comment on what he's doing, for him it's just a fact of life.

The reason why people like myself claim that he was sexually obsessed with Cersei is because the text clearly supports it. Think of all the times we see Jaime and Cersei together in the series; he's either sleeping with her, now finished sleeping with her, in the process of trying to sleep with her, or thinking of sleeping with her. He loses his mind because Tyrion tells him she's sleeping with a couple men, and it causes him to desert her at the end of AFFC when she is in grave peril. I'm not speculating on whether he loved her truly or not, but it was an unhealthy sexual obsession on his part for certain.

Their relationship is twisted and reaches staggering levels of co-dependence, however I don't see how engaging in unhealthy relationships is an indication of "evilness" in the parties involved. Because the affair that partially caused a war was not a perfect one it somehow makes it more wrong than a more traditional one ? For me Jaime and Cersei are exactly in the same position that Rhaegar and Lyanna were, yet those two don't seem to be held as much accountable for the Rebellion as Jaime and Cersei are for the War of the Five Kings.

Yes of course, Jaime is in a real position to get in a huff when he's just come from throwing Ned Stark's son out a window. He took advantage of the Starks' weakness at this point and as for caring so much about his little brother, he sure had no problem duping him with the whole Tysha affair.

He definitely had a problem though. There are at least 2 or 3 references throughout the books that Jaime feels guilty about this. I remember at least one being in ACoK. And in the end he confessed to his lie, though Jaime's part in the whole Tysha affair was really minor compared to Tywin's part. He may have told Tyrion that Tysha was a whore when she wasn't, but he didn't orchestrate the gang-rape and did not participate in it either, unlike Tyrion. There were 13 years before that where Jaime had been nothing but nice to his little brother.

They're inconsistent because "the things I do for love" reflects an extremely selfish, immoral individual who cares nothing much for anyone else but his sister, and for his brother. His motto doesn't extend to others. So when we see him actually giving a shit about Brienne or making a pledge to return Sansa Stark it raises eyebrows. And for all his "redemption" he has yet to express real sorrow for what he did to Bran.

Loving your family is a selfish thing now ? He loves both his siblings and his father, some of his cousins and other relatives I'd wager (like Daven, Genna). He has some "boyhood friends" like Addam Marbrand. But besides those people, pretty much everybody he's known after the age of 17 has called him "The Kingslayer" behind his back and generally thought very poorly of him on hear-say. I don't think that's a good way to start any relationship with anyone. Ned Stark hates him because he was sitting on the throne and because he sullied Robert's "honour", Robert hated him too because he hated every Lannister, Barristan thinks he should have been sent to the Wall so he's basically stuck serving people who hate him alongside other people who hate him. How can you expect him to start caring for any of those who whisper "Kingslayer" behind his back while showing an amicable face ?

He starts caring for Brienne because he can respect her abilities and what she stands for. She's like the female version of Arthur Dayne, a man he almost worshiped. I don't see it as too much of a stretch that he'd start respecting her.

This may be true, but for someone who seems to feel some sense of duty to stop abuses, he's been responsible for some of the worst in the book.

Some of the worst abuses in the book ? Besides crippling Bran nothing much comes to mind. Certainly nothing that compares to what Theon endured at Ramsay's hands, or Vargo at Gregor's, or Qyburn's experiments.

[Prince of Winterfell]

As a writer, I can vouch for the fact that plans change. Not to say that I'm 1/100th the author that GRRM is, but I can sympathize with plans being altered over the course of writing a series.

Not to mention the fact that the foreshadowing for an AA Jaime is plain as day, over the course of the series.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

The reason why people like myself claim that he was sexually obsessed with Cersei is because the text clearly supports it. Think of all the times we see Jaime and Cersei together in the series; he's either sleeping with her, now finished sleeping with her, in the process of trying to sleep with her, or thinking of sleeping with her. He loses his mind because Tyrion tells him she's sleeping with a couple men, and it causes him to desert her at the end of AFFC when she is in grave peril. I'm not speculating on whether he loved her truly or not, but it was an unhealthy sexual obsession on his part for certain.

Evamitchelle made most of my points but I take issue with this statement. What man do you know who doesn't feel this way about the woman he loves? I wouldn't call that sexual obsession. Furthermore, I think he would be more to Cersei if she'd let him; he asks to marry her- twice, I think- and she turns him down; sex is as close as she ever lets him get to her.

He deserts her for more than just the sexual unfaithfulness. He deserts her because she deserted him, the moment he put an end to unquestionably doing her bidding; he deserts her for the way she treats him now that he's no longer glorious but a cripple, for making a royal muck of the kingdom, for the way she treats Tommen, and because she's a power-hungry liar who only tells him now that she loves him b/c her ass is on the line and he's the only one who can save her.

And he doesn't "lose his mind" when Tyrion tells him what she's been up to. In fact he tries very hard and for a very long time to delude himself into believing it can't be true, that Tyrion only said that to hurt him, that Cersei admitted to lying to him a hundred times just to hurt him because she felt hurt when he rejected her for sex, etc....even when he's about to hear the truth from Lancel, he hopes to himself that Lancel will say it didn't happen.

[brashcandy]

Evamitchelle made most of my points but I take issue with this statement. What man do you know who doesn't feel this way about the woman he loves? I wouldn't call that sexual obsession. Furthermore, I think he would be more to Cersei if she'd let him; he asks to marry her- twice, I think- and she turns him down; sex is as close as she ever lets him get to her.

He deserts her for more than just the sexual unfaithfulness. He deserts her because she deserted him, the moment he put an end to unquestionably doing her bidding; he deserts her for the way she treats him now that he's no longer glorious but a cripple, for making a royal muck of the kingdom, for the way she treats Tommen, and because she's a power-hungry liar who only tells him now that she loves him b/c her ass is on the line and he's the only one who can save her.

And he doesn't "lose his mind" when Tyrion tells him what she's been up to. In fact he tries very hard and for a very long time to delude himself into believing it can't be true, that Tyrion only said that to hurt him, that Cersei admitted to lying to him a hundred times just to hurt him because she felt hurt when he rejected her for sex, etc....even when he's about to hear the truth from Lancel, he hopes to himself that Lancel will say it didn't happen.

This is amusing to say the least. Jaime cannot stop repeating to himself over and over what Tyrion told him. He doesn't have a problem with Cersei being a power hungry liar, he has a problem with her sleeping with other men. Now, granted, this is understandable in the sense that he is hurt as a lover, but to desert her in her time of greatest need because you're upset because she didn't jump at your marriage proposal and she said some things to hurt your feelings? Please, spare me. If this is great love I can do without it. Jaime needed to respond to Cersei as a brother in this scenario, but his selfish feelings rise up again and readers give him a free pass because Cersei is supposed to be the devil's spawn. The marriage proposal was ludicrous and Cersei rightly shut him down on it, and to your first point, lots of men don't spend every waking moment thinking about having sex with the women they love. They think about their children and other important things as well. Where was Jaime when Joffrey was growing up and needed some guidance, or Tommen for instance? I'm sure I'll hear the same tired excuse that Cersei kept him from the kids. :rolleyes:

[brut]

Sandor is AA, it is known.

[davidjones2492]

Conversely, Bran is the "Great Other", the "Dark Lord", the "anti-Azor Ahai". Bloodraven is behind the reemergence of the White Walkers, and is teaching Bran to control them. So, when the series is over, people will look in hindsight and say, "It's a shame Jaime didn't kill Bran when he had the chance" (GRRM likes to play mind games like that). As opposed to Jaime's arc of redemption, Bran is headed down an arc of corruption, which is actually quite realistic given the circumstances. Any child who went through what Bran did would certainly be traumatized for the rest of their life, and prone to bad influence. After cannibalizing his good friend Jojen, who essentially saved his life numerous times, he's already started down the path of corruption, unbeknownst to him.

Err hasn't the Great Other been around for about 8000 years as a God in opposition to Rholler? Bran is like 11.

Also Jaime, despite his changes for the better is still a far more corrupt person than Bran whose only unmoral act in the entire series has been to Warg into Hodor once at an inappropriate time. Lets note that he was happy to continue banging his sister even after his redemption and threaten Edmure's infant child with death via catapult.

Given some of the actions of many other children of privalege in the books; Joffrey, Little Walder, Sweet Robyn, there is a tendency for the children of Great Houses to be spoiled little shits with no empathy for others and massive sense of entitlement. Bran though appears to be a person of great moral strength who is constantly concerned with the well being of others and a wish to protect those close to him who cannot do so themselves such as Hodor, Meera and Jojen. I'd say he has always appeared to be his father's son.

Also even if the COTF are hostile towards humanity (which again is speculation contrary to information in the books) and are in league with/ in charge of the Others (which is an assertion of which there is no support what so ever), then please answer these questions:

Why would the North men have begun to worship the Old Gods in the first place, if they are linked to the others? seems a bit daft worshipping a force in league with your mortal enemies.

Why would Bloodraven help them? He is human after all.

Why wouldn't they have sent the Others against humanity in the past, seems they could have done so at any point if they wanted?

Why did they need Bloodraven at all?

Why would they lure Bran North by sending him dreams claiming he is needed to combat the others.

Even if all you suggest is true. Why in the name of all creation would Bran decide to help them when the truth is made clear to him; he may be angry with Jamie but developing this into a genocidal tendency towards his own species would be a bit of a push surely?

[Sister Goldenhair]

From what I remember of English from high school and college, the basic outline of a story requires an inciting incident. I would argue that for GoT the inciting incident was Jaime pushing Bran from the tower.

I agree that this is the incident that starts the events rolling and builds from there. Not sure where this idea of Jamie and Bran is going to leave Dany and Jon Snow. Perhaps Cersei could be the redeemed one but now seems she is mad, although Targaryens usually have one sane and one insane, etc. etc. Definitely believe Jamie and Cersei are Targaryens though.

[Herta]

I read this post with interest and dread. I may actually be coming to the end of my interest in the series....me, a fanatic fan, however, corrupting an innocent child who has had his life ripped apart i.e Bran is just more than I can take. I feel the same way about Arya and the complete lack of some kind of justice in this world. I recognize that justice is an ephemeral concept and in short supply in the real world, but, without the hope of some form of "righting" the order of things, I will just chuck it all

I have followed the theories here with interest and appreciation, but frankly, I'm not from the school of thought where every trope has to be turned on its head just to "be different". As a reader, I would feel totally betrayed at the investment of emotion into some of the characters simply to have them manipulated into some crazy ass contortion to satisfy some perverted desire to be different.

The reason many of us loved this series was because of the depth of character and the hope that somewhere along the way, this magical realm would be put to rights - and that means justice for the Starks - especially and including Bran.

[Evamitchelle]

This is amusing to say the least. Jaime cannot stop repeating to himself over and over what Tyrion told him. He doesn't have a problem with Cersei being a power hungry liar, he has a problem with her sleeping with other men. Now, granted, this is understandable in the sense that he is hurt as a lover, but to desert her in her time of greatest need because you're upset because she didn't jump at your marriage proposal and she said some things to hurt your feelings? Please, spare me. If this is great love I can do without it. Jaime needed to respond to Cersei as a brother in this scenario, but his selfish feelings rise up again and readers give him a free pass because Cersei is supposed to be the devil's spawn. The marriage proposal was ludicrous and Cersei rightly shut him down on it, and to your first point, lots of men don't spend every waking moment thinking about having sex with the women they love. They think about their children and other important things as well. Where was Jaime when Joffrey was growing up and needed some guidance, or Tommen for instance? I'm sure I'll hear the same tired excuse that Cersei kept him from the kids. :rolleyes:

The problems that arise in Cersei and Jaime's relationship don't come entirely from his obsession with her cheating. First, they begin before Tyrion reveals Cersei's infidelities : Jaime hasn't been back for more than an hour in KG that they already start arguing, and it continues in his next POV chapters. So their problems didn't entirely stem from Jaime's discovery that she's been cheating on him repeatedly.

As to Jaime abandoning Cersei, so he didn't "come at once" but he was definitely on his way to KG. With his sword hand chopped off there's nothing much he could personally do anyway, but he was still riding for KG when he disappeared in the Riverlands well before Cersei even got out of her cell. Rushing back to KG on his own to save Cersei from the evil clutches of her captors is something Jaime would have done pre-crippling, he's gotten a bit more caution since then and instead of going to KG alone at Cersei's rescue he quickly finishes the business in the Riverlands to come back to KG with an army. There's not much more he could have done anyway.

And the children part : since both Cersei and Jaime have repeatedly said that she kept him out of the whole fatherhood business, I'm tempted to believe him. What's he supposed to do anyway, demand personal time with Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella because it's his right ? When he actually tried to talk/guide/bond with Tommen in AFFC he got shot down time after time by Cersei : Jaime tries to comfort Tommen at Tywin's funeral, Cersei interrupts them and start telling Tommen he's a little baby and should be more like his (abusive) elder brother, Jaime said Tommen could ride instead of taking a carriage, Cersei says no, Jaime asks permission for Tommen to joust, Cersei says no. And it goes on like this until she sends him into the Riverlands to perform a task pretty much any one could have carried out (maybe not as bloodlessly) despite him expressing his desire to stay at court to protect the King. You can definitely say that Jaime started "bonding" with his kid a bit too late, but considering the reception such attempts get from Cersei, I don't really see how he could have succeeded.

[Sister Goldenhair]

The reason many of us loved this series was because of the depth of character and the hope that somewhere along the way, this magical realm would be put to rights - and that means justice for the Starks - especially and including Bran.

Yes, we always root for the "good guy" but as I kept reading it dawned on me that the "good guys" aren't what they seem to be. The children of course didn't have a choice in what befell them and Bran is the one that has to rely so much on others. It seemed to be from the beginning that Jamie could be redeemed since he had the depth of character to be the kingslayer when no one else had the fortitude to see past their oath (think of Nazi Germany). Probably many more twists and turns before the saga ends but enough characters that we don't have to rely on the old standby that the good guys wear white hats!!!

[Rickon is FIERCE]

This is amusing to say the least. Jaime cannot stop repeating to himself over and over what Tyrion told him.

Yes, he does. I don't see how that means he's "lost his mind" over it. He's haunted by it, b/c he's always been faithful to her, and loved her, and assumed she felt the same, and now it seems she didn't. He doesn't do anything crazy because of it; doesn't act on it at all, other than to distance himself from Cersei. Totally natural under the circumstances.

He doesn't have a problem with Cersei being a power hungry liar

He is disturbed by her power-grabbing rule of the kingdom ("I don't know who I pity more, Tommen or the realm"- paraphrasing), and he does have a problem with her lies when he's on the other end of them. "I've lied to you a hundred times," is what really brings Tyrion's accusations to the fore. He mentions the two together a few times. Her letter: "I love you, I love you, I love you"-- as if. Is he supposed to buy that? She loves him enough for him to come and get her ass out of a predicament she put herself into and totally deserves, but not to suffer the embarrassment and loss of power that would come from admitting to having loved him and then marrying him.

Jaime needed to respond to Cersei as a brother in this scenario, but his selfish feelings rise up again and readers give him a free pass because Cersei is supposed to be the devil's spawn.

Why? They're not just siblings. There's no going back now. And Cersei is guilty of everything she's accused of, which is some pretty bad stuff (handing folks over to Qyburn comes to mind). I don't think he should have gone to her, it's true. She'd use him and lose him just like she's always done.

The marriage proposal was ludicrous and Cersei rightly shut him down on it, and to your first point, lots of men don't spend every waking moment thinking about having sex with the women they love. They think about their children and other important things as well.

I can agree with you on the marrying bit. But I think it's just as ludicrous to contend that sex with Cersei was all Jaime ever thought about.

If that was all there was to him as a character, there wouldn't be much debate going on about him.

[Sister Goldenhair]

Yes, he does. I don't see how that means he's "lost his mind" over it. He's haunted by it, b/c he's always been faithful to her, and loved her, and assumed she felt the same, and now it seems she didn't. He doesn't do anything crazy because of it; doesn't act on it at all, other than to distance himself from Cersei. Totally natural under the circumstances.

He is disturbed by her power-grabbing rule of the kingdom ("I don't know who I pity more, Tommen or the realm"- paraphrasing), and he does have a problem with her lies when he's on the other end of them. "I've lied to you a hundred times," is what really brings Tyrion's accusations to the fore. He mentions the two together a few times. Her letter: "I love you, I love you, I love you"-- as if. Is he supposed to buy that? She loves him enough for him to come and get her ass out of a predicament she put herself into and totally deserves, but not to suffer the embarrassment and loss of power that would come from admitting to having loved him and then marrying him.

Why? They're not just siblings. There's no going back now. And Cersei is guilty of everything she's accused of, which is some pretty bad stuff (handing folks over to Qyburn comes to mind). I don't think he should have gone to her, it's true. She'd use him and lose him just like she's always done.

I can agree with you on the marrying bit. But I think it's just as ludicrous to contend that sex with Cersei was all Jaime ever thought about.

If that was all there was to him as a character, there wouldn't be much debate going on about him.

Obviously Jaime is more than meets the eye, the one you both like and dislike but can't get enough of.

[brashcandy]

The problems that arise in Cersei and Jaime's relationship don't come entirely from his obsession with her cheating. First, they begin before Tyrion reveals Cersei's infidelities : Jaime hasn't been back for more than an hour in KG that they already start arguing, and it continues in his next POV chapters. So their problems didn't entirely stem from Jaime's discovery that she's been cheating on him repeatedly.

Jaime and Cersei have always had a volatile relationship. This isn't something new. What is new however is his sense of insecurity concerning Cersei's behaviour, the fact that she is not as willing to be his sex toy, and that he no longer feels in control. So out comes the intense paranoia, the frustrations, and the wild marriage proposals. He may still love her underneath it all, but he is incapable of stepping outside of his own pity party to help her out of her increasingly downward spiral. Cersei becomes very watchful of Tommen in AFFC and this is only normal. She's just witnessed her firstborn murdered, and her brother Tyrion, who hates her guts and whom she thinks is responsible for the murder, has just escaped after killing her father. I'm not trying to whitewash Cersei's abominable behaviour, but do we ever really look at it from her side? Jaime has a right to feel upset, but deserting her when she needed him most over what had arguably been a trivial falling out is not acceptable. Once he felt that she had compromised their relationship by sleeping with other men that was the first nail in her coffin for him. He even begins thinking of her as a whore. This is unreasonable in my estimation, and very very unfair. He was not hustling back to KL either. He took his sweet time wrapping up business in the Riverlands whilst Cersei was enduring torture back at the High Septon's. Now whether or not Cersei deserved that torture is up for debate, but did she deserve for Jaime of all people to abandon her to that fate? IMO, no. And there were lots of things he could have done. But he chooses not to see her as his sister, nor as the mother of his children. He only seems capable of seeing her as a lover, and this is where the sexual obsession comes in.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

@Brosbeforesnows

I like your theory on the basis that it's well thought out, and creative :) but there are a couple things I don't believe:

- Jaime and Cersei as the mad king's bastards - a little too convenient for my sake - Not all the Targs were incestuous, and Tywin, although he wasn't crazy mad like Aerys, was still ruthless and cruel, making him the perfect father for Cersei. Plus taking liberties during a bedding doesn't equate to actually sleeping with someone, unless he raped Johanna afterwards or they had a secret affair.

- I actually think that Jaime hasn't been reborn yet. Sure he's lost his hand, and he may be on a something of a redemption arc, but he hasn't reached there yet. Perhaps we'll see his true rebirth later on in the series, especially now that he's gone off with Brienne in the last book.

- Bran as an antagonist is possible, but I don't see it happening. If Bloodraven is really behind the emergence of the Others, then Bran's stronger powers will probably be used to defeat them. Perhaps he'll learn something vital via the weirwood spying network and might intervene in the past somehow thereby changing the present.

I must say though that Jaime as Azor Ahai is possible - especially the nice bit about simultaneously forging the sword through a lion and his beloved Nissa Nissa all via Cersei.

Thank you, I appreciate it. I'll try to address some of your concerns:

1. Aerys raped Joanna... Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna... Joffrey kidnapped Sansa... history repeating itself. True, not ALL Targs were incestuous, like Aegon V for example, but if you recall from the Dunk & Egg books, even he talked about marrying his sister as if it were completely natural. Dunk was horrified, but reasoned that he was royal Targ blood, so he kept his mouth shut. Jaime is going down a very similar path, though in reverse. Egg talked of marrying his sister as if it were natural, but never did. Jaime desperately wanted to marry his sister, but knew it was wrong. But now he's starting to break away from Cersei, and will most likely follow in his great-grandfather's footsteps.

2. No, Jaime has not been (completely) reborn YET. That will come with the final revelation of his true identity... He will realize that he killed his father when he slew Aerys, just as Tyrion killed his father when he slew Tywin, and he might then finally connect Cersei's madness to Aerys. Remember, madness in the Targ family doesn't affect all of the children... it almost seems to work in pairs. Aerys was mad, but Rhaegar wasn't (granted, they weren't siblings, but closer in age than Rhaegar and Viserys). Viserys was mad, but Dany isn't. Cersei is mad, but Jaime isn't, etc... With that revelation, however it comes, Jaime will probably become the valonqar and AA simultaneously, and kill Cersei to forge Lightbringer (which will probably contain the Valyrian steel from Ice, Ned Stark's old blade that Tywin had reforged... Fire & Ice). Then his transformation will be complete. He will then have killed both his father, and his sister in defense of the realm, having sacrificed those who are his closest blood relations in defense of the weak and vulnerable (i.e. the smallfolk).

3. Bran is a child, a frightened, abused child at that, and I see him going down the Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader path. We already know that Rickon is "angry", and Bran can't possibly be thrilled about his situation. He's completely vulnerable, and if Bloodraven and the Children are really working against the "Realm of Men", he will be like putty in their hand. Think how easy it would be to convince a young boy who has lost as much as Bran has that humanity is cruel and evil, and that the world should be cleansed of their presence? Remember, all the people who have wronged Bran have been exactly that; people.

[brashcandy]

Ok, you make some valid points, I don't agree with everything, but they are possible nevertheless :) and I guess we'll see how everything plays out.