[ADwD Spoilers] Jaime & Bran

[BrosBeforeSnows]

"There are no men like me. There is only me". --Jaime Lannister

That, my friends, says it all right there. Sure, you could blow it off as Jaime's usual arrogance, or you could read it as foreshadowing his future as the "Chosen One". There certainly are no men like "The Prince Who Was Promised", or "Azor Ahai" (other than Azor Ahai).

Also, if you recall from AGoT, when King Robert and his retinue first arrive at Winterfell, we see it through Arya's perspective. She's expecting to see this great, legendary king her father has always told her about, and is disappointed when she sees fat, drunken Robert. However, when she sees Jaime, she thinks to herself, "that's what a true king should look like" (paraphrasing). Foreshadowing? I think so. That was in the VERY beginning of the series, when first impressions are everything.

More foreshadowing: At the conclusion of the War of the Five Kings, after Tywin had sacked King's Landing, and Jaime had murdered Aerys, Eddard Stark rode into the throne room expecting to find the mad Targaryen sitting upon the Iron Throne... but who does he find instead? Jaime. If Jaime really is AA/TPWWP, Ned could've saved everyone a lot of time and heartache if he had just crowned him instead of Robert (of course, Jaime had not been "reborn" yet, but still, it would be one of those "hindsight is 20/20" kind of things). But the image of Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne was implanted in our minds from very early on in the series. And when you consider that he had sacrificed his own father (i.e. Aerys) for the sake of the realm, it could very well parallel his storyline later in the series when he saves the day and sits the Iron Throne once again.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

"There are no men like me. There is only me". --Jaime Lannister

He said this because he was aware that the negative aspects of himself made him very unique. Not because he thought he was something great - it was because he knew he was messed up.

Now he seems on a quest to be something great. But you completely misread the line.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

"There are no men like me. There is only me". --Jaime Lannister

He said this because he was aware that the negative aspects of himself made him very unique. Not because he thought he was something great - it was because he knew he was messed up.

Now he seems on a quest to be something great. But you completely misread the line.

That's called "foreshadowing". No matter why he said it, he said it. And what he said, quite literally is, "I am unique".

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Jaime and Cersei have always had a volatile relationship. This isn't something new. What is new however is his sense of insecurity concerning Cersei's behaviour, the fact that she is not as willing to be his sex toy, and that he no longer feels in control. So out comes the intense paranoia, the frustrations, and the wild marriage proposals. He may still love her underneath it all, but he is incapable of stepping outside of his own pity party to help her out of her increasingly downward spiral. Cersei becomes very watchful of Tommen in AFFC and this is only normal. She's just witnessed her firstborn murdered, and her brother Tyrion, who hates her guts and whom she thinks is responsible for the murder, has just escaped after killing her father. I'm not trying to whitewash Cersei's abominable behaviour, but do we ever really look at it from her side? Jaime has a right to feel upset, but deserting her when she needed him most over what had arguably been a trivial falling out is not acceptable. Once he felt that she had compromised their relationship by sleeping with other men that was the first nail in her coffin for him. He even begins thinking of her as a whore. This is unreasonable in my estimation, and very very unfair. He was not hustling back to KL either. He took his sweet time wrapping up business in the Riverlands whilst Cersei was enduring torture back at the High Septon's. Now whether or not Cersei deserved that torture is up for debate, but did she deserve for Jaime of all people to abandon her to that fate? IMO, no. And there were lots of things he could have done. But he chooses not to see her as his sister, nor as the mother of his children. He only seems capable of seeing her as a lover, and this is where the sexual obsession comes in.

This is actually an open-minded sort of post, so thanks for that. It's fascinating how people can read the same books and see things so completely differently. I never read Cersei as Jaime's sex toy. I saw it the other way around, actually (which is why she turned to her Lancel stand-in after Jaime was gone). Remember, it was Jaime's turning Cersei down for sex in his room that began their falling out. And I don't think he ever felt in control with Cersei-- she called all the shots: persuaded him to join the KG, told him to keep shy of the kids, sent him on his way to maim/kill Arya... at least twice in his reminiscences with Illyne Payne he talks about times Robert did something to upset/anger/hurt Cersei and Jaime's first response to Cersei was, "Ok, what would you like me to do?" He asks if she wants him to kill Robert, which he would do at her behest. She says, "No, I want him horned," and strips. Cersei was running the show, here, not Jaime.

She wasn't just watching over Tommen. She hated the way Margaery Tyrell was getting her hooks into him and was worried Tommen would start listening to Margaery over her. There was a power struggle with Margaery going on, not just concern over Tommen's welfare. And the way she treated him at Tywin's funeral was all about making sure things looked strong and under control to dissuade the Tyrells and whomever else might get the notion from trying to move in on her territory now that Tywin was gone.

Jaime thinks of her as a whore because by Westerosi standards, she is one. She slept with upwards of four guys who weren't her husband in order to get something from them in return.

He abandons her to her fate because she's a lost cause. Let's say he did go back and save her. Would she change her ways and say, "Yes, Jaime, it's you I want, let's run away together with our children, I don't need the throne I only want you?" Because that's what he's looking for. Everybody knows that ain't happening. And I do think he feels she's bad for the kingdom, and bad for his son, and better off kept away from both of them.

Of course he's not going to see her as simply his sister anymore, like I said, they're well beyond that. But neither does he see her as only a lover... nor has he ever. He loves her as a wife, and sees her this way, which is why he wants to marry her (as impossible as that may be) and has remained faithful to her. And I just don't see the sexual obsession. He wants her sexually and is attracted to her... isn't that the case with any two people in love?

[kephv]

The same could be said for Bran though. How many crippled Greenseers are there? Probably just him.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

The same could be said for Bran though. How many crippled Greenseers are there? Probably just him.

Very true... but he didn't say it. Jaime did.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

But the image of Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne was implanted in our minds from very early on in the series.

I don't think Jaime ever thought he actually wanted to be King, but. I doubt Ned thought that either. Jaime has shied away from leadership, much to his father's dissapointment, which has been made very clear. It's why he joined the Kingsguard (and to be with Cersei, but still) and forsake all land and title. He was just sitting on the throne for the hell of it - he's arrogant, and he simply did not care about the symbol.

Why do you think Jaime would be Azor Ahai, anyway?

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

That's called "foreshadowing". No matter why he said it, he said it. And what he said, quite literally is, "I am unique".

And what he said was "I am unique because I bang my sis and have no moral substance no mater how hard I try"

Don't cut the line short.

Of course, I do believe Jaime is changing in the story, but not before he said that. All the characters are quite unique, also. I don't see why Jon is not unique, if he is Rhaegar's son, then he is muc more likely Azor Ahai,.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

2. No, Jaime has not been (completely) reborn YET. That will come with the final revelation of his true identity... He will realize that he killed his father when he slew Aerys, just as Tyrion killed his father when he slew Tywin, and he might then finally connect Cersei's madness to Aerys. Remember, madness in the Targ family doesn't affect all of the children... it almost seems to work in pairs. Aerys was mad, but Rhaegar wasn't (granted, they weren't siblings, but closer in age than Rhaegar and Viserys). Viserys was mad, but Dany isn't. Cersei is mad, but Jaime isn't, etc... With that revelation, however it comes, Jaime will probably become the valonqar and AA simultaneously, and kill Cersei to forge Lightbringer (which will probably contain the Valyrian steel from Ice, Ned Stark's old blade that Tywin had reforged... Fire & Ice). Then his transformation will be complete. He will then have killed both his father, and his sister in defense of the realm, having sacrificed those who are his closest blood relations in defense of the weak and vulnerable (i.e. the smallfolk).

I think I might have posted some of that... ;)

"There are no men like me. There is only me". --Jaime Lannister

That, my friends, says it all right there. Sure, you could blow it off as Jaime's usual arrogance, or you could read it as foreshadowing his future as the "Chosen One". There certainly are no men like "The Prince Who Was Promised", or "Azor Ahai" (other than Azor Ahai).

LOVE. IT. :agree:

Also, if you recall from AGoT, when King Robert and his retinue first arrive at Winterfell, we see it through Arya's perspective. She's expecting to see this great, legendary king her father has always told her about, and is disappointed when she sees fat, drunken Robert. However, when she sees Jaime, she thinks to herself, "that's what a true king should look like" (paraphrasing). Foreshadowing? I think so. That was in the VERY beginning of the series, when first impressions are everything.

More foreshadowing: At the conclusion of the War of the Five Kings, after Tywin had sacked King's Landing, and Jaime had murdered Aerys, Eddard Stark rode into the throne room expecting to find the mad Targaryen sitting upon the Iron Throne... but who does he find instead? Jaime. If Jaime really is AA/TPWWP, Ned could've saved everyone a lot of time and heartache if he had just crowned him instead of Robert (of course, Jaime had not been "reborn" yet, but still, it would be one of those "hindsight is 20/20" kind of things). But the image of Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne was implanted in our minds from very early on in the series. And when you consider that he had sacrificed his own father (i.e. Aerys) for the sake of the realm, it could very well parallel his storyline later in the series when he saves the day and sits the Iron Throne once again.

It's like you've been in my brain... :cheers:

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Why do you think Jaime would be Azor Ahai, anyway?

Dude, have you read the entire post?

EDIT: Haha.. I mean, the entire thread? Cuz we've covered that a few times.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

How can someone seriously think Jaime and Cersei are Targaryans?> Where has that been suggested or built up at all?

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Dude, have you read the entire post?

Most of it. And it does not make much sense. Some people seem to have very wild imaginations. I don't think they fit the story at all.

[brashcandy]

Most of it. And it does not make much sense. Some people seem to have very wild imaginations. I don't think they fit the story at all.

This is why it's called a "theory" and even though we may all not agree with every aspect of it, it is actually a well set out and argued piece, and certainly more viable than a lot of the crackpots I see people commenting on. But surely, if you don't think it make sense or fits the story, you're welcome to leave the thread.

[iamthedave]

I still vote 'There are no men like me, there's only me' to be one of the best lines in the entire series. Just awesome.

I doubt that the Lannister kids are Targs, but Tyrion -might- be. For Jaime and Cersei to be as well just seems a little absurd. It's not impossible, but there seems to me a point where we push from 'what a twist' to 'are you f'n kidding me?'

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

I read the OP (I'd heard this guys story before but only glanced at the OP because I thought it was the same recycled stuff). He has presented it a bit better here, but from some of the other ideas I've seen him write, he seems to read too deply into things.

To be honest, I have not heard any better explainations as to what the comet meant. And I do assume the comet meant something.

I do think Bran is now on the side of evil, similar to the OP suggestion. Where did the cannibalizing Jojen come from, but? He did not explain that.

I do think Jaime is destined to be something great, but I'm not so sure it's Azor Ahai. I am certain that title is for Melisandre to name who it is. It seems to be HER right to name Azor Ahai (so the story seems to be telling). She does not even know Jaime and will never met him probably. She wrongly named Stannis, clearly. And seems set to name Jon.

Jon IS a Targ bastard - does everyone at least agree with that? Then what does that MEAN for Jon? Surely it does not mean something simple like he gets to have Winterfel. It must mean something great, like he will be the one to lead a massive army on Kings Landing, be Azor Ahai, ride a dragon, something like that.

I think Jaime just wants to be a knight. A hero, but nothing more. Azor Ahai is not necessarily a king, but I think Jaime just wants to be recognized now as "Goldhand" - good deeds. Not slaughter. I think Martin has something in store for him like he will rescure Sansa (maybe even marry her if he wins her heart) or something like that.

I just think this is the rational path. I've only read the books once, and am starting again, but.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

For Jaime and Cersei to be as well just seems a little absurd. It's not impossible, but there seems to me a point where we push from 'what a twist' to 'are you f'n kidding me?'

Exact what I thought.

[brashcandy]

This is actually an open-minded sort of post, so thanks for that. It's fascinating how people can read the same books and see things so completely differently. I never read Cersei as Jaime's sex toy. I saw it the other way around, actually (which is why she turned to her Lancel stand-in after Jaime was gone). Remember, it was Jaime's turning Cersei down for sex in his room that began their falling out. And I don't think he ever felt in control with Cersei-- she called all the shots: persuaded him to join the KG, told him to keep shy of the kids, sent him on his way to maim/kill Arya... at least twice in his reminiscences with Illyne Payne he talks about times Robert did something to upset/anger/hurt Cersei and Jaime's first response to Cersei was, "Ok, what would you like me to do?" He asks if she wants him to kill Robert, which he would do at her behest. She says, "No, I want him horned," and strips. Cersei was running the show, here, not Jaime.

She wasn't just watching over Tommen. She hated the way Margaery Tyrell was getting her hooks into him and was worried Tommen would start listening to Margaery over her. There was a power struggle with Margaery going on, not just concern over Tommen's welfare. And the way she treated him at Tywin's funeral was all about making sure things looked strong and under control to dissuade the Tyrells and whomever else might get the notion from trying to move in on her territory now that Tywin was gone.

Jaime thinks of her as a whore because by Westerosi standards, she is one. She slept with upwards of four guys who weren't her husband in order to get something from them in return.

He abandons her to her fate because she's a lost cause. Let's say he did go back and save her. Would she change her ways and say, "Yes, Jaime, it's you I want, let's run away together with our children, I don't need the throne I only want you?" Because that's what he's looking for. Everybody knows that ain't happening. And I do think he feels she's bad for the kingdom, and bad for his son, and better off kept away from both of them.

Of course he's not going to see her as simply his sister anymore, like I said, they're well beyond that. But neither does he see her as only a lover... nor has he ever. He loves her as a wife, and sees her this way, which is why he wants to marry her (as impossible as that may be) and has remained faithful to her. And I just don't see the sexual obsession. He wants her sexually and is attracted to her... isn't that the case with any two people in love?

I don't think we necessarily see things so differently, just different emphases in some cases. Now after that nicety, I launch my attack ;) :

She actually didn't sleep with upwards of four guys. I think it has only been confirmed as two people for sure, Lancel and one Kettleback brother. And to be honest, she was a married woman and Jaime had no problem sleeping with her, so whilst I can understand his consternation, people in glass houses...

I think it's very easy to think that Cersei was the one in charge when really and truly what power did she have? She's been used as a marriage pawn by Tywin, given to a man who doesn't love her and spends his time fathering bastards and pining over a lost love, in addition to routinely raping and beating her. She isn't taken seriously as an intelligent woman and she's ruled out of ever inheriting Casterly Rock. In contrast, Jaime is Tywin's golden boy, he escapes his duty as heir by entering the Kingsguard, and his notoriety as a kingslayer earns him a feared reputation and grudging respect even if people sneer at him. He's able to follow his passion as a Knight and isn't required to suffer abuses in an unhappy marriage.

When you really compare them it's clear that Cersei's existence was no picnic, and so yes, she does try to assert some influence via Jaime. The problem is that her influence is so terrible though, not that she shouldn't try to do so.

As for her relationship with Margaery, part of it is jealousy, the other part real suspicion. She fears that Margaery might be the younger queen of her prophecy (try living with that over your head for all your life!) and that she may be turning Tommen against her. But the other reason is good intuition. There is something not right about the Tyrells, and Marg is hiding something, just that it may not be what Cersei thinks. Let's not forget that the Tyrells did indeed murder Joffrey, so Cersei's distrust of them is justified.

Cersei may be a lost cause, but I don't think she is, and I don't think Jaime thought so either. He was simply too hurt and upset over her behaviour to think rationally - but this is his weakness. He should have set aside his anger and gone back, but instead he leaves her to be victimised by Kevan and the High Septon. Honestly, I feel sorry for both of them.

[iamthedave]

She isn't taken seriously as an intelligent woman

You have to admit, she kind of brings that one on herself.

and she's ruled out of ever inheriting Casterly Rock. In contrast, Jaime is Tywin's golden boy, he escapes his duty as heir by entering the Kingsguard, and his notoriety as a kingslayer earns him a feared reputation and grudging respect even if people sneer at him. He's able to follow his passion as a Knight and isn't required to suffer abuses in an unhappy marriage.

This does somewhat ignore the context of his becoming a member of the Kingsguard: Aerys did it to spite Tywin and deny him his heir. That's explicitly said in the text, and it's a sticking point for both Jaime and Tywin. Jaime's 'passion as a knight' was poisoned out of the starting gates.

As for her relationship with Margaery, part of it is jealousy, the other part real suspicion. She fears that Margaery might be the younger queen of her prophecy (try living with that over your head for all your life!) and that she may be turning Tommen against her. But the other reason is good intuition. There is something not right about the Tyrells, and Marg is hiding something, just that it may not be what Cersei thinks. Let's not forget that the Tyrells did indeed murder Joffrey, so Cersei's distrust of them is justified.

Cersei may be a lost cause, but I don't think she is, and I don't think Jaime thought so either. He was simply too hurt and upset over her behaviour to think rationally - but this is his weakness. He should have set aside his anger and gone back, but instead he leaves her to be victimised by Kevan and the High Septon. Honestly, I feel sorry for both of them.

Cersei was a lost cause after Falyse Stokeworth and the Blue Bard. She's now about to unleash a zombified Gregor Clegane on her allies. She has the high septon murdered on her word because Lancel revealed her treason to him.

I do believe in redemption through action (hence why I support Jaime these days), but I see nothing whatsoever in the books to believe Cersei is going on a similar path. Especially not after Varys' words at the end of Dance. All points to her going on a rampage and causing yet more political upheaval, destruction and disaster to make the way open for Aegon taking over.

I completely agree that the prophecy hanging over her is the 'justification' for why she is the way she is, though I've always disliked it.

After all Cersei has done, though, I am incapable of ever feeling sorry for her. She brought everything that has happened to her on herself and should legitimately be on her knees praying to the gods in thanks that she's getting off with her life intact.

[kephv]

He should have set aside his anger and gone back, but instead he leaves her to be victimised by Kevan and the High Septon. Honestly, I feel sorry for both of them.

I don't know. I thought it was for the best (only for him obviously) that he didn't.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

This does somewhat ignore the context of his becoming a member of the Kingsguard: Aerys did it to spite Tywin and deny him his heir. That's explicitly said in the text, and it's a sticking point for both Jaime and Tywin. Jaime's 'passion as a knight' was poisoned out of the starting gates.

And let's not forget it was Cersei who convinced him to give up his claim to CR and join the KG.