Mirri Maz Dur

[Verboten]

She has the most awesome line in the first book, she avenges her people by killing a khal. Then she kills The Stallion That Mounts The World. Since there are obviously a lot of differing opinions on her (that are filling other threads) I created a topic for her. At my first though I do think Mirri is justified in killing both Drogo and Rhaego, because Drogo is a monster and Rhaego (if the visions in the house of the Undying can be believed) would have burned cities. But as I thought about it more I came to the conclusion that she should not have killed Rhaego based on the sins of his people. So she's a thought provoking character for me. She's neither a her nor a villain but a complex grey character that GRRM excels at creating in her few scenes. What do you think of her and why?

[The Blind Eye]

Her argument was the same as Pycelle's for killing Dany: 'If i kill these 1-2 people I save uncounted millions/billions from dying in war. How is that a bad thing?'

For some people thats an easy moral justification others would want to cur-tale the child and raise him not to be a Ghengis Khan; Thus we debate.

[eyeheartsansa]

Here's what I said in the other thread:

Miri Mazdur was a nice healer lady who watched her village burned and got gang raped; she wanted some small measure of revenge and the only way she could do this was kill the unborn child of the one person who showed some measure of kindness to her. She is no villain but certainly no hero. Just a regular person caught up in some foul circumstances. One wouldn't expect her to grovel before Dany in a display of gratitude, but murdering her child is pretty bad too. There should have been some happy medium. People get taken as slaves all the time in this world - the ones who have skills such as healing are more likely to survive. Obviously she isn't saving any lives by killing Raego, and since the Dothraki follow strength, not lineage, they are just going to follow the next guy after Drogo and continue with their village burning and raping ways.

Dany was 100% right to burn her alive.. it's not like she could have just stayed around, right? And it's not as though Dany can just let this person go.. what kind of message does that send to the rest of the kalasar?

And also:

'Sallion Who Mounts The World' is open to interpretation. It was never specific to Rhaego, only interpreted that way. It's likely that every khal expects their son to be the STMTW, like wanting your kid to grow up and be president. MMD was just talking out of her ass, I don't think she was even seriously trying to justify what she did - she was just mocking Dany with her culture's own prophecy. So it's funny to me that readers turn this around to make MMD into some kind of hero, preventing some great evil by killing an unborn baby (they didn't even know it was going to be a boy).

[Bastard Walder]

Her argument was the same as Pycelle's for killing Dany: 'If i kill these 1-2 people I save uncounted millions/billions from dying in war. How is that a bad thing?'

For some people thats an easy moral justification others would want to cur-tale the child and raise him not to be a Ghengis Khan; Thus we debate.

Anyone who argues against this is either a fool or a radical against overpopulation.

[Bastard Walder]

Here's what I said in the other thread:

And also:

I think even savages have ways of knowing the gender of a baby 8 months after conception.

[eyeheartsansa]

you mean by looking at the stars, or spilling horseguts on the ground and seeing how they land?

[Alexia]

you mean by looking at the stars, or spilling horseguts on the ground and seeing how they land?

Do you carry high or low, do you carry in or out? Usually that way.

Everyone thought it was a boy, and Dany gave it a boy's name.

[LordBloodraven]

Ok, I've been on that other thread and I've read most of the arguments. I understand why MMD killed Rhaego; her life was destroyed by the Dothraki all she loved was turned to ashes by Drogo's khalasar. I have no sympathy for Drogo and I see perfectly why MMD offed him. But Rhaego? He's not even a boy yet? I don't see anything heroic about deliberately killing a foetus by basing it on a prophecy. That was just vile.

Posters had been berating Robert for killing Aegon and Rhaenys; it's the same thing that MMD did.

What about Edric Storm, too? If burning him would save all of Westeros, was Melisandre (Stannis for considering it) right in proposing it? In both cases, the rest of the World would be saved by killing an innocent boy (foetus).

I understand why she did it, I don't blame her for doing it but it was no less vile.

[Ser Lepus]

I´m not sure she purposelly killed Khal Drogo; maybe she really tried to save her skin healing him, but once she found all her hopes of survival lost, she wanted to go defiantly, BUT...

If we accept she purposelly murdered Drogo, it may look ungrateful from Dany´s point of view, but the truth is that Mirri M. Dur was fully justified: Khal Drogo had killed all the men of her village, and kidnapped the children and women to sell them as slave prostitutes, so yes, he deserved to die horribly, with the bonus of making the dothraki fight each other, reduce their overall number and divide the kalashar into several smaller and less dangerous ones...

The problem is, many people are willing to forgive people like Khal Drogo or Victarion their crimes because they are "badass"; it works in a similar way as how comic villians that have been eating children alive become popular because they are "cool" and the editors decide they should suddenly change their hat, become heroes, it is revealed they are nice to dogs and their moms (and should be loved for that) and they join a superhero group and everybody in their universe forgive their crimes and receive them with open arms...

Drogo spent many years murdering, burning pillaging and raping, and it´s right he was put down like a rabid dog; I don´t care if he was nice to Dany (even Hitler loved his mom, and we doesn´t think we should forgive his crimes for that).

Rhaego is a different matter; he was an inocent baby, and killing him would be sort of justified only if she had an 100% certainty that he was going to become a monster, but we don´t know how magic really works, and how reliable are prophecies, and if they could be changed. We also should take into account that maybe she didn´t killed Rhaego; he was deformed, after all, and the miscarriage may have been natural.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Her argument was the same as Pycelle's for killing Dany: 'If i kill these 1-2 people I save uncounted millions/billions from dying in war. How is that a bad thing?'

For some people thats an easy moral justification others would want to cur-tale the child and raise him not to be a Ghengis Khan; Thus we debate.

By the way, Mel also made a similar argument about Edric Storm and we know how "accurate" Mel is in her predictions! ;)

[eyeheartsansa]

Do you carry high or low, do you carry in or out? Usually that way.

Everyone thought it was a boy, and Dany gave it a boy's name.

right.. the larger point I was making is that 'stallion that mounts' doesn't mean a hill of beans to MMD.. she as just throwing that prophecy in Dany's face to mock her. Any khal's son is equally likely to grow up and be TSWMTW. There is nothing specific in that prophecy that points to Rhaego. Or maybe it's because Dany did such a great job eating that heart in front of everyone?

[Bastard Walder]

you mean by looking at the stars, or spilling horseguts on the ground and seeing how they land?

No they would have a mammogram.

[Verboten]

By the way, Mel also made a similar argument about Edric Storm and we know how "accurate" Mel is in her predictions! ;)

That wasn't a predicition it was an explanation of how her power works. If she doesn't burn the kid she doesn't get her magic mojo

[Verboten]

right.. the larger point I was making is that 'stallion that mounts' doesn't mean a hill of beans to MMD.. she as just throwing that prophecy in Dany's face to mock her. Any khal's son is equally likely to grow up and be TSWMTW. There is nothing specific in that prophecy that points to Rhaego.

The part where a dos khaleen prophecises it kind of does.

[Alexia]

Posters had been berating Robert for killing Aegon and Rhaenys; it's the same thing that MMD did.

No, it really isn't. Aegon had his head smashed against a wall before his mother was raped with his brains all over the hands of her rapist. Rhaenys was stabbed over fifty times after being dragged from underneath her father's bed.

Rhaego was sacrificed by his mother in a desperate attempt to revive his father. At best, you can say that MMD cheated Dany. But Dany knew the price.

[Evamitchelle]

My intial nomination in the Heroes thread : "Mirri Maz Duur : a healer most of her life, who saved lives beyond counting. Killing Rhaego prevented one of the greatest massacre in the history of Essos at the hands of his khalasar - she was in a good position to see what damages a khalasar did to the Lamb people. Since she was in the middle of said khalasar, she had no chance of escape and was burned alive by Daenerys so she could hatch her dragons. "

I didn't start thinking that way until my first re-read though. The first time around I still pretty much viewed Dany as a shining example of goodness (my opinions have changed a lot since then), so anyone hurting her and her loved ones was pretty much a black hat in my book. But seen from her perspective she's preventing the world from a khalasar that will conquer the world (and she's seen what those conquests mean first-hand) and make it his herd (so, slaves). And I think there's a difference between Melisandre and MMD in that Melisandre does not put herself under any threat of death by killing Edric Storm : if she's wrong, she'll just keep on trying, MMD will be dead. And Rhaego's not a person yet, unlike Edric Storm.

[Ser Lepus]

Do you carry high or low, do you carry in or out? Usually that way.

Everyone thought it was a boy, and Dany gave it a boy's name.

Those methods are not efficient at all, and Mirri, as a midwife, knew that better than anybody.

Anyway, it doesn´t matter from an ethical point of view; either she was a seer and knew that the baby certainly was going to become a monster, or she didn´t.

Also, I have edited my previous post.

[Sevumar]

I don't think it's right to kill people for crimes they might commit and I can't approve of killing Rhaego, but I do cut Mirri Maz Duur a lot of slack for what she did. The text contains evidence that she didn't start out intending to kill Drogo or to turn Rhaego into an inhuman monster.

Of course, this is coming from a person who holds to modern morality and who lives in a world where magic and prophecy don't exist in any credible form. We're told again and again that just because a thing appears in a prophecy, it's not guaranteed to happen that way. Dany clearly desired for Rhaego to have a chance to live, and he should have. That's the only thing I can find any grounds to criticize MMD about.

[kissdbyfire]

I don't think she was distressed over Rhaego's death, but I don't think she deliberately killed him.

This is from AGoT:

"Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness."

Dany is carried into the tent by ser Jorah; Mirri Maz Durr had warned her that no one was to enter...

[Shaggydog Stark]

That wasn't a predicition it was an explanation of how her power works. If she doesn't burn the kid she doesn't get her magic mojo

She predicted that she would be able to raise a dragon out of stone by burning Edric. I think if Davos had allowed it, Edric would have been burned for nothing.