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The northmen inside and outside Winterfell. Conspiracy? The GNC - The Grand Northern Conspiracy

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Thx for the passage.

Thats a lot of disrespect Jamie doled out, more reason I dont believe WF would likely keep the hostages till the last possible second. But obviously that's subjective, if the Freys ever made it home.

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Thx for the passage.

Thats a lot of disrespect Jamie doled out, more reason I dont believe WF would likely keep the hostages till the last possible second. But obviously that's subjective, if the Freys ever made it home.

That's exactly why I think the Freys would be very reluctant to refuse to release the prisoners! They are cowards. The ones involved in this anyway. :)

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That's exactly why I think the Freys would be very reluctant to refuse to release the prisoners! They are cowards. The ones involved in this anyway. :)

But WF would have to ol the release and he aint stupid.

I would think he knows tywin is dead and the Lannisters are dead.

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@bemused and I exhanged a few posts in another thread, and I'm going to copy + paste a few of them because I think they are pertinent to the discussion here. I'm curious to see what you guys think. @bemused came up with the idea, as you'll see below.

kissdbyfire...Thanks , and I should have mentioned that the whole appearance of Aly is a bit suspicious ,in itself. First we have Lyanna's gutsy answer to Stannis ( She and Wylla Manderly are girls after my own heart )..next thing we know, an older sister has joined her on Bear Island , and Aly turns up for Stannis ( but we don't hear of her actually swearing to him ).. It just makes me think an older, wiser head ( somewhere ) is stepping in and directing things...

After all, as Stannis comments on reading Lyanna's letter, Robb Stark is dead, so the thought follows..who is she talking about ? ..If there had been a further exchange of letters, would Lyanna have been in a position to give something away?..It just makes me think of Wylla being rushed from the hall before she could damage Manderly's game.

It might have been just a child's lingering loyalty , or she might have overheard important adult conversations.

Well, I just did a thorough search for Maege/Mormont/Dacey/Alysane/Aly/Lyra/Jorelle/Jory. The results were quite intersting even if we can't be sure of anything yet. In AGoT/ACoK/ASoS not only there is no mention whatsoever of Lyra and Jorelle - not even in the appendixes - but the text seem to indicate that Dacey was the only one with Maege. For instance, this dialogue between Catelyn and Maege Mormont seem to indicate that Maege and Dacey were the only Mormonts that were with Robb at that point.

ASoS, chapter 45, Catelyn:

We are stronger than we seem, my lady,” Lady Maege Mormont said as they rode. Catelyn had grown fond of Lady Maege and her eldest daughter, Dacey; they were more understanding than most in the matter of Jaime Lannister, she had found. The daughter was tall and lean, the mother short and stout, but they dressed alike in mail and leather, with the black bear of House Mormont on shield and surcoat. By Catelyn’s lights, that was queer garb for a lady, yet Dacey and Lady Maege seemed more comfortable, both as warriors and as women, than ever the girl from Tarth had been.

Wouldn't it make sense that some mention would be made if Lyra and Jorelle were with them too? 

But then we have this exchange between Asha and Alysane Mormont.

ADwD, The King's Prize:

“Do you have brothers?” Asha asked her keeper.

“Sisters,” Alysane Mormont replied, gruff as ever. “Five, we were. All girls. Lyanna is back on Bear Island. Lyra and Jory are with our mother. Dacey was murdered.”

“The Red Wedding.”

“Aye.” Alysane stared at Asha for a moment. “I have a son. He’s only two. My daughter’s nine.”

Curious, isn't it? I think you're onto something, bemused! ;)

I forgot to say that Lyra and Jorelle are not mentioned in any of the books (apart from Alysane's chat with Asha); their names simply don't appear. The only two exceptions are the appendixes in AFfC and ADwD, but even there the two of them and Aly are only listed as Maege's daughters with no info on their whereabouts.

kissdbyfire..Yay! That was fast ! ( I noticed your post a little earlier, but had stuff to do. )... I thought it was only Dacey that was mentioned with Maege, but really couldn't remember.

So ,I was wrong in that there's not an older daughter with Lyanna at the mo ..but still , any of the others might have been at home with her until very recently. In fact , I'd be surprised if it was otherwise.. doesn't Jon estimate she'd be about 10 ? It seems rational that  Maege would have left someone more senior with her when she went off with Robb....( Robb leaving Bran was a different situation , Jon was at the wall .. there was no older family member to leave with Bran. Even so, Robb expected Cat to return..)

All this stuff makes me believe more and more in a Northern Conspiracy ..Obviously , none of the three older sisters were with Lyanna when she received Stannis' letter..So why wasn't at least one of them ? Was Alys with Maege as well ? ...Or it might be that she was just off to the mainland to receive / send messages of her own ? With news seeming to get about in the North without resorting to ravens , I'm imagining some sort of secret relay courier network ( think Pony Express )

Some weeks pass between Stannis sending out letters, getting some replies, then getting underway following Jon's advice, gathering up men from the clans , and getting to Moat Cailin. Enough time , if a courier system exists , to pull together a counter move , or make adjustments to plans I can't help feeling the North already had underway on their own.

I think for them , Stannis represents the lesser ( maybe much lesser ) of two evils. To oppose him, or simply not aid him at all, benefits the Boltons and Lannisters , yet the north doesn't really want to fully support him and give up on any hope of autonomy. It's one thing for Manderly to commit forces..much of the reserve army he began building for Robb is better suited to a more southern campaign ( at least a campaign not waged in deep snow ) what with all the ships and heavy horse... And I'm sure he'll keep his word to Davos. ( especially if it means helping Stannis ..or vice versa .. in taking down the Freys. ).. But the North will need men , too.

@bemused, I think the whole business with the she-bears is very interesting. One way I think it could have happened is Dacey went with Maege to join Robb back in AGoT but not Lyra and Jorelle - and all the info we have in the text supports this.  Dacey is the eldest, followed by Alysane, Lyra, Jorelle, and Lyanna in that order. So, Dacey goes with mama bear and the other gilrs stay put. At some point - either after Maege reaches Greywater Watch or after the RW - Lyra and Jorelle join mama bear, and Aly is left in charge of Bear Island. And then, at some point, Aly decides to go get the ironborn, or she receives instructions from *someone*. It would make sense if Aly had already left Bear Island when Lyanna answer Stannis' letter. I've even contemplated the possibility of Jon, after reading Lyanna's letter to Stannis, having replied to Bear Island ( off screen) telling them that Stannis is marching towards Deepwood Motte, thus giving Aly the idea to go join them. I'm not sure if it fits with the timeline, I haven't checked yet. But this is definitely very intersting, I think. I'm going to bring this all up in the Northmen Conspiracy thread too. :)

kissdbyfire..Yes, that's how I see it too... I don't know if Jon would have sent his own reply, because he was still trying to keep up some semblance of taking no part, but Stannis had sent out letters to all the North..Manderly could have had quick contact with GWW , Aly , etc.

I think the North had their plan to retake WF and retrieve Rickon..or produce Robb's missive..or both ,in some order. Then Stannis' reveals his plan and they decide they have to have men with him , helping him , in case he should succeed without them, or before them. ( Hence the help from the clans and Aly ) .They'd want to ideally take WF before him , and be the ones to help / save him .. or failing that, play a large part in the success of his plan .Better to be able to treat with him on equal terms instead of having to accept largesse at his hand.

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@kissbyfire, I think that you got it. The oldest sister went with Mama bear south, and died at the RW. Mama did at least some of what Robb told her to do, and has either meet up with her other girls, or sent them to do other things.

As to why they would work with Stannis, I think I said this before but Jon has been working on get Stannis help. If he is infacted named King or even King Regent until either Bran or Rickon comes of age, his trying to get Stannis help would be in effect an order. Those who are working with Stannis would be loyal to their King.

I also want to point out that Davos last chapter is about 30 of the 72 chapters is aDwD. That would be months since Davos was given the choice to go get Rickon. It is not only possible but likely that he has come back. If Manderly knows that Rickon is safe, it would explain some of his actions. by Theons last chapter Manderly almost seems like he is provoking the Freys, and offers send his men out in to the winter, to possibley to advoid conflect with guess laws, or to go to Stannis.

Oh and 1 last thing. Robb's plan was to offer 100 men to the NW for Jons release. The north would need to get 100 men for the offer, who better then Bolton, and Frey men?

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Hi folks,

I posted this as a knew topic though it should have likely been placed here.

I have a super crackpot theory and i'd like to see what people think. If this has already been elaborated my apologies...i couldn't find it...so here goes...

I think Mance is the author of the pink letter and moreover he has eliminated/neutralized both the Boltons and the Freys and w/ some allied northern lords is in control of Winterfell looking to put a Stark back in Winterfell.

here's how...

1. Before the Escape i believe Mance persuades a number of northern lords to back his ploy.

  • Mance is persuasive as hell - he persuaded the wildlings to join forces, and survived stannis's justice, and Jon can't help but like him.
  • I think at least some of the spearwives are daughters of northern lords this gives him a useful bargaining piece/good faith gesture to win over the northerns. Mance isn't stupid he selected the spearwives by name indicating they are well know (what spearwife would be more well know than a northern lords daughter) he would also be choosing northerners for their understanding of the cultural norms and possible alliances that they could forge once inside WF.
  • I think that Mance offers to free fake "Arya" if in return some of the northern lords upon hearing that she has escaped turn cloak and betray the Boltons/Freys.
  • i think the hooded man is someone from Mors camp -not Mors himself theon's description of Mors in the sample chapter didn't seam to indicate he was the same person as the hooded man- likely one of the many scouts that Roose Ryswell refers to as leaving the hunter's gate but not returning (p.609 ADwD hardcopy). I think the hooded man is there to meet w/ Whoresbane to let him know Mors is outside and to co-ordinate both inside and outside WF. Furthermore I figure the Hooded man got into WF via a wildling rope ladder placed by a spearwife who's taking a quick trip outside the walls.
  • The Northern Lords during the interrogation of Theon are notably pointed w/ the freys. Specifically Lady Dustin and Roger Ryswell are harsh despite having been the voices of moderation in the past. But more striking is the difference of attitude in the Great Hall the morning of the escape - the Boltons are angry, arguing and fearful, while at the same time Roger Ryswell and Harwood Stout are laughing and making japes.

2. We all know Mance frees someone he knows to be a Fake Arya using essentially 2 spearwives and Theon. The question is why?

  • Mance knows that arya's a fake, theon thinks he's a fool for saving the wrong girl and repeatedly points it out in the escape chapter, however mance like thoen knows that arya is the only thing holding the northern lords to the Boltons/Freys without her the Bolton claim to WF evaporates. The other northern lords know this as well - keep in mind the constant references to Jenye having the wrong eyes compared to Tyrion who recognized that at least Aegon has the right eyes. Everyone knows "Arya" is a Fake. However no-one will make a move for fear of being flayed. Thus Mance offers to save "Arya" so long as they back him when it's revealed that she's gone - if the ploy fails he'll be the one who gets flayed if it succeeds the North can have it's revenge.
  • Freyna was sent w/ the rope because, I think, she's Mors Umber's daughter. She is big and stupid, both are Umber traits. Reuniting Mors w/ his daughter would be a huge plus for Mance winning the favor of the Northern Lords/Umber clan.
  • The escape therefore serves a number of functions. It removes the Bolton claim to WF, allows for the creation of alliances, and the ensuing chaos within WF will allow Mance to brake the Bolton hold on the north.

3. Mance will use the Chaos created by Aenys Frey's death and the escape of Fake "Arya" to take the Boltons and Freys by surprise.

  • When Theon leaves the Great Hall w/ the spearwives to free fake "arya" Mance was on the high table w/in striking distance of the Boltons.
  • we also know Mance is a gifted fighter capable of holding his own. he is more than confident, and rightly so, that Ramsay can try as he like but he's no match for the mighty Mance.
  • w/ the benefit of surprise and some secret allies such as Whoresbane, Rywell, Stout, Manderly, Hornwood's men, and perhaps some Locke's men (see p.251 hardcopy ADwD the Lockes don't like Ramsay),
  • Three of the spearwives headed back toward the Great Hall to help Mance.
  • I think the news of Aenys' death in Mors' pit outside the Main Gate of WF and the News of Jenye's escape will reach the Great Hall at the same time causing massive chaos. Mance will strike killing Roose and Ramsay while the northern lords rise up and eliminate the Freys and Boltons in the Great Hall, the North gets its vengeance with a mini red-wedding.
  • Outside in the yard the Manderlys will surround the remaining Frey forces, who've regrouped in the Yard awaiting further instruction after the false start, there they will be trample under the heavy horse and knights of the White Harbor.
  • No more Boltons. No more Freys. Mance and host of northern lords holding WF.

4. Mance w/ the Northern Lords wrote the Pink Letter.

  • they have all the necessary knowledge.
  • they have motive. Mance wants his army of wildlings, his son and sister-in-law back. He and the Northern Lords want hostages to use against Stannis. The lords of the north have all made it clear they don't want Stannis as king. Having his wife, daughter and priest would be good bargaining tools to bring Stannis to yield - if he survives the snows to even make it to WF. and i'm sure Mance has a bone to pick w/ Stannis. He crushed Mance's army, took him captive, interrogated him at length, took his child, caged his people, likely threatened to burn him alive and represents all that drove him from the Nights Watch.
  • There is also no threat of Ramsay or Roose getting any of the hostages/freed captives because the Boltons are dead - thus the authors of the letter have no cause for actual fear they want Jon to come down to WF for their own reasons.
  • Some of the northern lords probably want Jon in WF either as a superstition, a back up plan, or some sort of revenge (lady dustin must know of jons possible parentage and the fact that he was part of the party that made it back from the south w/ Ned Stark, she may also feel like it's a way of getting revenge on Cat by trying to place a non-tully/bastard in WF she could at least have some small victory in this).

5. This explains some things that don't make sense to me.

  • This explains how Theon and Jenye could jump from the walls of WF and be found immediately by Mors, he knew they would be coming from above the Battlements gate.
  • It also explains how they could jump, Mors could find them, interrogate them, get word that the Main Gate was opening, smile and then presumably ride around WF to confirm that the Freys had fallen in his trap, then meet up w/ the bravossi banker, tell him what's up and send him Stannis all w/ out a battle or any direct contact w/ Frey, Bolton forces, or any confirmation that the Manderlys actually exited WF despite being at the easiest gate to open, and how Tycho could make it to Stannis despite being slowed by 6 Iron Born, 2 "Gifts" who probably aren't fit to ride, and 2 Nights watch which no doubt helps a lot. If Ramsay is alive it's hard to believe he/his dogs wouldn't catch up to His Reek and His Bride which would be priority #1 for both him and Roose. All of this was possible because inside WF the Boltons and the Freys are getting torn to pieces.
  • This explains why there is no report of a battle in the Theon sample chapter (or anywhere outside of the Pink Letter). If there was a battle outside the walls of WF between the Freys and Crowsfood' men then Stannis would have known from Tycho and he would have asked Theon about it to confirm what Tycho had reported as he did w/ other info brought by the Bravossi Banker. Furthermore if there was a battle outside the walls of WF it's hard to believe that Mors could survive w/ as small and unseasoned a force as the one he commands. therefore it's safe to assume the Freys turned around and went back inside, their leader/brain is dead and lord stupid needs a new horse the gate closes behind them - all for the better. Mors and his new "Gifts" return to camp Tycho shows up Mors sends him on his way w/ the "Gifts".
  • This also explains the letter. It's not from a desperate Mance on the run, but a victorious Mance w/ a major stronghold and the backing Northnern Lords eager to bring Stannis to heal and install a real Stark back in WF.
  • this also explains the hooded man. A missing scout makes sense, it was pointed out that the scouts go missing the same chapter that yellow dick is killed, the stables collapse, the hooded man shows up and the spearwives take theon to mance and the Mors starts sounding his warhorn and drums.

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@kissbyfire, I think that you got it. The oldest sister went with Mama bear south, and died at the RW. Mama did at least some of what Robb told her to do, and has either meet up with her other girls, or sent them to do other things.

As to why they would work with Stannis, I think I said this before but Jon has been working on get Stannis help. If he is infacted named King or even King Regent until either Bran or Rickon comes of age, his trying to get Stannis help would be in effect an order. Those who are working with Stannis would be loyal to their King.

I also want to point out that Davos last chapter is about 30 of the 72 chapters is aDwD. That would be months since Davos was given the choice to go get Rickon. It is not only possible but likely that he has come back. If Manderly knows that Rickon is safe, it would explain some of his actions. by Theons last chapter Manderly almost seems like he is provoking the Freys, and offers send his men out in to the winter, to possibley to advoid conflect with guess laws, or to go to Stannis.

Oh and 1 last thing. Robb's plan was to offer 100 men to the NW for Jons release. The north would need to get 100 men for the offer, who better then Bolton, and Frey men?

It wasn't me, bemused was the one who brought this to my attention. But I agree, there's something going on with the she-bears, and I love it!

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@ by the Old Gods, that is a lot to take. I do see somethings that most of us think in your post, and I see some crackpottery in there to. I am not going to try break all of that down, and by no means do you, are anyone have to agree with me.

IMO it is at least 2 different groups that are working towards similar goals of getting the Starks back. I do believe that they will all get together some point in aWoW. First is the Manderly camp, along with the Umbers who seem to be trying to get Rickon as leige lord. The second is the Mormonts and anyone who escapped the RW, or survied the Iron born. They know about the will and are working with Stannis( likely to get Jon off the Wall). A possible 3rd group is the Mountain Clans and/or Wildlings who I think know about Bran was headed North.

You did bring up a somethings I had not seen or thought of myself and that is that the spearwives may be daughters of Northerns. In a weird way that makes some sense to me. While I don't see them all being from great houses, they may be stewarts, Master of Horse, Blacksmiths that serve the houses daughters.

I also dig that a Northern Lord sent the letter, to get Jon to come off the wall but I don't think it is likely. I know its fake, but I don't know who or why sent it.

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BtOGNtN ... ( Can I use your initials ?)...Mance is very fascinating..but I'm not really completely sure what he's up to.

We know it was Mel's idea to have him rescue Arya , mainly to get Jon to trust her ( this could have ominous consequences for Jon , since she seems so interested in his shadow..but that's another story ). I do agree the spearwives seem to have been "stolen" or are the daughters of stolen Northern girls, judging by Rowan's ( ?) dedication to Ned / the Starks...And it makes sense women with such a background would be more likely to undertake a dangerous mission to rescue Ned's daughter.

I don't necessarily see Mance caring so much about reinstating a Stark in WF ( unless he's revealed to have Stark blood , and wants to fill the bill himself )..I think Stannis knew it was Rattleshirt he burned , but I don't know why , apart from the reasons Jon pointed out. And I don't think he can have known beforehand that Mance would be in WF..though I think he might know enough about him to figure it out based on the story of Theon and Jeyne's escape ...( On a side note, I seem to remember that there was no love lost between Benjen and Mance , but again, we don't know why.)

I can't see Mance being the one to pull the Northmen into his plan. If they're acting in concert following the escape , he joined them..

Mance couldn't have known about Tormund and his people when he left WF ,so he wouldn't know how many wildlings are available..and I really wonder, after all those people swearing directly to Jon, not the NW..how many Mance can consider his wildlings , anymore.

As to Mance's persuasiveness ..it may be considerable, but it's worth remembering that in getting the wildlings to band together, he did have some help , in the threat posed by the Others..and I'm picking up on hints that both Dalla and Val were / are likely priestesses or seers of the Old Religion .. so Dalla marrying Mance might have helped him as well ..but now with Dalla dead, Val seems to be her successor ( not as a princess but as a priestess ), and Val may be seeing Jon as the strong leader the people need.

I started out, like Black Wolf Smith , thinking there were 2 or 3 separate Northern conspiracies..and maybe they started that way, but the more I've thought about it and discussed it here with others, I've come to feel that they're all connected, all dovetailing together.

The White Harbour men left through a different gate..we've not heard that it was booby trapped..they could have kept going.. I don't think there would have been much of a battle between the Umbers and the Freys... the Umbers were green boys .. they were there for sabotage , more than for battle , and could have dispersed without too many losses.

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@ by the Old Gods, that is a lot to take. I do see somethings that most of us think in your post, and I see some crackpottery in there to. I am not going to try break all of that down, and by no means do you, are anyone have to agree with me. IMO it is at least 2 different groups that are working towards similar goals of getting the Starks back. I do believe that they will all get together some point in aWoW. First is the Manderly camp, along with the Umbers who seem to be trying to get Rickon as leige lord. The second is the Mormonts and anyone who escapped the RW, or survied the Iron born. They know about the will and are working with Stannis( likely to get Jon off the Wall). A possible 3rd group is the Mountain Clans and/or Wildlings who I think know about Bran was headed North. You did bring up a somethings I had not seen or thought of myself and that is that the spearwives may be daughters of Northerns. In a weird way that makes some sense to me. While I don't see them all being from great houses, they may be stewarts, Master of Horse, Blacksmiths that serve the houses daughters. I also dig that a Northern Lord sent the letter, to get Jon to come off the wall but I don't think it is likely. I know its fake, but I don't know who or why sent it.

If the northern lords wanted Jon now to head south it seems like they could find a better way than one that might possibly get his head lopped off... There's no guarantee with that sort of ploy that Jon does anything that the writer of this letter wants wether they be hidden motives, or explicitely stated in the letter.

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hi bemused, initials are fine.

I know Mel sent Mance to save "Arya" and she's trying to win over Jon. But i think she's kind of incompetent and whatever she's up to probably won't come to fruition. Furthermore she's full of questioning and self-doubt in her chapter she's not sure if she should've saved mance, or if he's on the other side because of his acceptance of death.

I think Mance wants to put a Stark in winterfell for at least 3 reasons -

  1. superstition he may believe that a stark must always be in WF - wildlings seam to believe all of Old Nan stories.

  2. live out his Bael the Bard fantasy - a bastard would be fitting.

  3. finally to win more allies to his cause - he's in a place surrounded by enemies and a psycho who flays people, offering the north a stark to save his skin seams reasonable.

I think whatever stannis knows or doesn't know is likely irrelevant at least w/ regard to what is happening w/in WF. If he knows Mance is alive or not doesn't change Mance's position - stannis is an up tight d-bag who will rue the day he smashed Mance's forces.

clearly i think Mance is awesome. and i think he brought the northern lords into his ploy for a couple of reasons:

  1. He has a ploy in mind when leaving Castle Black.

  2. he's on an all or nothing mission, the northern lords can play a longer game.

  3. he has spearwives who will help win northern lords to his cause all they can offer is helping him not lose his skin which will be at risk w/ or w/ out their help.

  4. he can offer them everything they need but are not willing to do themselves - he can free fake arya, he can remove the bolton claim to WF, he can likely kill the boltons, he can maintain the honor of the north, killing boltons and freys is fine once fake arya has been removed. 5. the difference between his ploy and their ploy is kind of irrelevant - insofar as his ploy is based on the fact that the Bolton hold over the north is weak at best, and that treachery abounds w/in WF. I'm sure some of the northern lords believe he his joining their Ploy - doesn't mean that isn't part of his ploy.

W/ regard to Mances persuasiveness:

  1. The Others in this instance are the Boltons and the Freys pretty much everyone in the north hates at least Ramsay and the Freys, and beyond them there's Stannis who no-one likes and most fear. the north can ally against both of them around the idea of putting one of a number of Starks back in WF. He also had to defeat a number of self-fashioned leaders of the wildlings who thought they should lead the wildlings south away from the others so it wasn't as simple as pointing to the crazy ice zombies and saying follow me.

  2. To get a wildling wife you have to take a wildling wife. Wedding Dalla was as much a sign of his skills as anything else. While i agree that she was likely part of his influence over the wildlings her death doesn't transfer anything to Val in terms of the wildlings who don't care about heredity. Val is clearly a badass herself, however her influence is limited insofar as she has been isolated in Hardin's Tower since she returned w/ Tormund (who knows what happens in the aftermath of the last Jon chapter).

  3. The allegiance of the wildlings is never certain. they're the free folk. but it's clear that the spearwives in WF are still loyal to Mance. It's also clear that a lot of wildling badasses want to ride south w/ Jon after hearing the contents of the pink letter, likely because they want to get Mance out of the cage he's said to be in and kill the jerk who's skinning spearwives.

W/ regard to the White Harbor men, the Freys and Umbers outside the walls of WF i don't see how all of that can happen - w/out being reported, or disrupting the meeting and departure of Tycho from WF. I would like to know how the chronology of this scenario would play out. if there's a battle/fighting why wasn't it reported, If the maderlys made it out why is there no reference to it, if all of this is happening as theon and jeyne are jumping than how can tycho show up into/after all of this chaos and still make it to Stannis w/out any real specifics on who's outside the walls of winterfell or coming for a fight.

I agree there is some serious treachery afoot w/in winterfell. and obviously i could be totally wrong - I just like the idea of Mance not only surviving but doing so in spectacular fashion.

thanks for the feedback i love to see what people w/ different perspectives have to say.

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@ By the Old Gods, I forgot, Welcome to the Forum, and thread.

I don't think that we have heard "There must be a Stark at WF" from anybody but Starks. While it may be possible that there was a Stark on the Wall that is Mances father, I don't think its likely. There are holes in the Stark family tree from about Eggs time til we get to Neds father, but we don't know of a Stark at the Wall in that time frame. GRRM has said that all the Stark men died off around 100's ago and only the wives and childern were left. Which is at least in part of what the She-wolves of WF will be about.

@ Endrew Tarth As I said I like it, but don't think that it is likely. When I go to each of the people that could have sent that letter I find holes that don't make sence to me. MBG is that it was Ramsey, and he did it without tell his father, trying to goad Jon.

@bemused I think that all of them are moving together. I think that at least some of the players have made contact with each other, but whether they have all gotten together, I don't think so. To much is going on from different directions ( of course that could be the plan itself).

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We dont know anything for sure. The Frey still had to go back to the Twins and tell WF. Id be shocked if WF already sent his hostages away. It would be very un-Walder Freyish.

So maybe UnCat can send Jamie into the Twins to free Robb's men?

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BTW - you need to find the thread Mance FTW - I think it's this forum but anyway - the OP has some really good ideas about what's going on inside Winterfell and some good points for Mance being the author of the Pink Letter. It fits in with the conspiracy and how good Mance is at winning others to his cause.

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I have been going through the chapter where Wyman gets cut and Roose talks to him afterwards as if he is still capable of riding out, so I don't think he is hurt very badly. On the next page and a bit there is this which I found quite interesting;

According to the wiki Rowan is a wildling spearwife, one of the 6 that accompany Abel to Winterfell. Does anyone else find that above quote a little to ... much/strong/loyal coming from a Wildling about Eddard?

Yeah I find that odd now that you mention it. Could any of these "spearwives" be from the hill clans (flint/norrey/liddle), and does that add any fuel to our "Mance is secretly allied to the Hill clans" theory?

I think at least some of the spearwives are daughters of northern lords this gives him a useful bargaining piece/good faith gesture to win over the northerns. Mance isn't stupid he selected the spearwives by name indicating they are well know (what spearwife would be more well know than a northern lords daughter) he would also be choosing northerners for their understanding of the cultural norms and possible alliances that they could forge once inside WF.

Very, very interesting.

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If the northern lords wanted Jon now to head south it seems like they could find a better way than one that might possibly get his head lopped off... There's no guarantee with that sort of ploy that Jon does anything that the writer of this letter wants wether they be hidden motives, or explicitely stated in the letter.

This is exactly why I find it very hard to believe the letter is not from Ramsay.

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This is exactly why I find it very hard to believe the letter is not from Ramsay.

:dunno: Something screwy is going on here... Stupid letter makes me crazy! It's like the episode of southpark when the carnival games are screwing them over. I just want to rip up the letter and scream "SHENANIGANS!!!" :devil:

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All those who are at Winterfell are bound by the law of guest right.

I don't think they're bound by shit. They know Roose and the Freys are treacherous imposters who have no actual right to be holding Winterfell in the first place. Especially with their technicality, "Arya", being gone. I don't have the best knowledge of the specifics of the old gods views of guest/host rights, but I'm sure the old gods are smart enough to recognize that if a bunch of Freys and Boltons die inside the walls of Winterfell no real sins have been committed.

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how cool can Roose be when his back's against the wall and a huge black direwolfs getting ready to ripe his throat out. I hope Manderly has Roose and his son flayed side by side.

Is it wrong that this image makes me smile?

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