Why would Bran stay with BR for his entire lifetime?

[bemused]

I don't think he would necessarily be breaking a deal by leaving. The CoTF had Bloodraven available to teach Bran , but BR was unable to leave by the time Bran is born. ( Doesn't Leaf say he's been waiting for the "Bran boy" ? ..It may be one of the main reasons , if not The reason BR is where he is in the first place.) Once Bran has enough training and knows enough of the relevant history, I can't see why he would need to stay.

As the end of his life approaches why couldn't he bond with the heart tree at WF ?

I agree that too much has been made of the caves to just be "colour".

[wighty]

I think that the cave of the CotF and the crypts of Winterfell could be linked, and Bran could do his green seeing there.

[Hans Sprungfeld]

I don't think he would necessarily be breaking a deal by leaving. The CoTF had Bloodraven available to teach Bran , but BR was unable to leave by the time Bran is born. ( Doesn't Leaf say he's been waiting for the "Bran boy" ? ..It may be one of the main reasons , if not The reason BR is where he is in the first place.) Once Bran has enough training and knows enough of the relevant history, I can't see why he would need to stay.

As the end of his life approaches why couldn't he bond with the heart tree at WF ?

I agree that too much has been made of the caves to just be "colour".

This isn't an RPG video game. Your version basically has Bran going to the cave to "level up". He has to have some opportunity cost, some price for choosing that route. Not being able to leave in human form is the cost that by far makes the most sense given the story.

[bemused]

Well I don't play video games , so I don't see things in those terms. " Leveling up " is a pretty superficial assessment. I think of it more like serving an apprenticeship , going to study with a master.

"Opportunity cost" is fairly meaningless ( and somewhat jingoistic). He was chosen because of his innate abilities , and it may be that the cost to the whole world would be very great if he had not gone.

Since we don't yet know the whole story , and more than one Stark seems set to break outdated conventions, I'd say there's plenty of room for GRRM to write some other fate for Bran , and make it perfectly sensible.

[Jonlion]

I always thought that Bran, an the absolute Warg was going to control a Dragon and therefore tame one and pull off some super union with Daenrys.

Then he flies

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Well I don't play video games , so I don't see things in those terms. " Leveling up " is a pretty superficial assessment. I think of it more like serving an apprenticeship , going to study with a master.

"Opportunity cost" is fairly meaningless ( and somewhat jingoistic). He was chosen because of his innate abilities , and it may be that the cost to the whole world would be very great if he had not gone.

Since we don't yet know the whole story , and more than one Stark seems set to break outdated conventions, I'd say there's plenty of room for GRRM to write some other fate for Bran , and make it perfectly sensible.

Opportunity cost is not in anyway a jingoistic point. It is a vaid economic term and I'm applying it to literature because it is a way to add emotional weight to a stroy and a way that GRRM uses a lot. Robb marrying Jenyne and losing the Freys and Arya losing her identity in order to become a faceless man are great examples of this.

Secondly your example isn't an opportunity cost. Opportunity costs means that one option is pick and the cost of not being able to choose the other option. Your example doesn't work because Bran does not know that world would turn out better if he hadn't gone. If Bran know that that going on the journey would bring him great personal happiness at the expense of the world then it would be an opportunity cost.

My comparasion to leveling in an RPG has to do with the lack of danger and sacrifice. Though Bran had a couple of encounters in the storyline since the beginning of ASOS he hasn't been in any real danger (from the reader's perspective). The reader knew he was going to get to his destination because the story required it. If it turns out he can just go home after his studying then it will turn out that the whole point of his long journey was just a way to grow stronger at no cost but time.Thats what leveling is, a way for video games characters to grow stronger at no cost but time put in.

Having to make a sacrifice to use his power gives the story more emotional weight. It means Bran is sacrificing more than just time, but his human existence. While I do somewhat concede that GRRM might be able to make a good story with Bran leaving the cave, but the readers on the board haven't given me any faith on that possibility. Those who believe Bran will leave seem to have a happy ending in mind. Sometimes they will make Jojen a sacrifice to give some emotional weight to the journey to the story, but that plays into the red shirt or more accurately mauve shirt (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MauveShirt) trope and will only bring attention to Bran's plot armor. If GRRM does kill Jojen it will more likely be to twist the the kinfe into the wounds of redears when they learn Bran is a tree. Finally, GRRM said the ending is bittersweet, so even if you don't agree with my storytelling those theories should be discounted as they seem too happy.

[summer_stark]

Opportunity cost is not in anyway a jingoistic point. It is a vaid economic term and I'm applying it to literature because it is a way to add emotional weight to a stroy and a way that GRRM uses a lot. Robb marrying Jenyne and losing the Freys and Arya losing her identity in order to become a faceless man are great examples of this.

Secondly your example isn't an opportunity cost. Opportunity costs means that one option is pick and the cost of not being able to choose the other option. Your example doesn't work because Bran does not know that world would turn out better if he hadn't gone. If Bran know that that going on the journey would bring him great personal happiness at the expense of the world then it would be an opportunity cost.

My comparasion to leveling in an RPG has to do with the lack of danger and sacrifice. Though Bran had a couple of encounters in the storyline since the beginning of ASOS he hasn't been in any real danger (from the reader's perspective). The reader knew he was going to get to his destination because the story required it. If it turns out he can just go home after his studying then it will turn out that the whole point of his long journey was just a way to grow stronger at no cost but time.Thats what leveling is, a way for video games characters to grow stronger at no cost but time put in.

Having to make a sacrifice to use his power gives the story more emotional weight. It means Bran is sacrificing more than just time, but his human existence. While I do somewhat concede that GRRM might be able to make a good story with Bran leaving the cave, but the readers on the board haven't given me any faith on that possibility. Those who believe Bran will leave seem to have a happy ending in mind. Sometimes they will make Jojen a sacrifice to give some emotional weight to the journey to the story, but that plays into the red shirt or more accurately mauve shirt (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MauveShirt) trope and will only bring attention to Bran's plot armor. If GRRM does kill Jojen it will more likely be to twist the the kinfe into the wounds of redears when they learn Bran is a tree. Finally, GRRM said the ending is bittersweet, so even if you don't agree with my storytelling those theories should be discounted as they seem too happy.

The guy you responded to was more right, IMO. Not re opp cost--it's not on point anyway, so sticking with sacrifice makes more sense than co-opting economic language. In any event, I don't care about the proper use--the point you make is Bran must sacrifice himself by becoming a tree to make the story have sufficient emotional weight.

The other guy is right--the story is incomplete, so we cannot know what he will sacrifice and when. Plus, your arg fails to account for the fact that Sansa and Arya have parallel "apprenticeship" arcs, all three being trained by shady mentors--therefore, the most logical course is that all 3 will leave their mentors, taking their skills with them for use in the larger plot.

The most sensical route is that all 3 interact with the main plot--which fits in nicely with GRRM's comment that he hopes to bring everyone's threads together, which he hopes to start doing in tWoW.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Bran has already made the sacrifice- use of his legs. Now he is finally getting the payoff.

Bloodraven apparently used his powers out in the world for years before he "retired" to the cave. Bran had to be brought to the cave to eat the weirwood paste; now he can connect to the trees from anywhere, and still continue his lessons.

Bran didn't have many chapters in aDwD. I suspect he already left, and will show up at the Wall in time to help "heal" Jon. (Not to mention that Summer is not eating well at all in the cave and needs to leave, and there's no reason to keep Meera there either.) Benjen may very well been an "unwilling guest" of the CotF, and will escort Bran back south.

At the end of his life, I suspect Bran will retire to the Isle of Faces, and merge with a tree there. Somebody's got to go there sometime, don't they? And then his consciousness will live forever. Valar Morghulis, not.

[Black Crow]

I always thought that Bran, an the absolute Warg was going to control a Dragon and therefore tame one and pull off some super union with Daenrys.

Then he flies

A popular theory, but the difficulty is that dragons are not ordinary beasts (and therefore susceptible to warging) but magical ones; fire made flesh

[summer_stark]

Bran has already made the sacrifice- use of his legs. Now he is finally getting the payoff.

Bloodraven apparently used his powers out in the world for years before he "retired" to the cave. Bran had to be brought to the cave to eat the weirwood paste; now he can connect to the trees from anywhere, and still continue his lessons.

Bran didn't have many chapters in aDwD. I suspect he already left, and will show up at the Wall in time to help "heal" Jon. (Not to mention that Summer is not eating well at all in the cave and needs to leave, and there's no reason to keep Meera there either.) Benjen may very well been an "unwilling guest" of the CotF, and will escort Bran back south.

<snip>

Oh I like that last bit re Benjen. And totally agree re the rest of your post that I quoted. Like wholefrigginheartedly.

Yes, totally agree re his legs. I thought of saying that too, but figured he didn't feel it counted so I just argued that his sacrifice can be something other than BranTree. But totally think being paralyzed is sacrifice enough. And more sacrifice (or at least not less of a sacrifice) than Arya and Sansa have made.

I've totally said the same thing re BR's life and how he had a very full life bf the caves. So totally on the same page on that too and the fact that Bran can def see through the weirwoods without being in the cave. Sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall with how illogically people on here talk about Bran's arc.

I think he'll exit through the caves and either go to Jon or straight to WF (or both in succession).

[TheNorthernWarrior]

Does he not need a weirwood throne to connect to the weirnet? If so, I wonder if there are some south of the wall? Obviously Winterfel crypts somewhere would be an easy place for one to be hiding. But what about somewhere in the Red Keep or Kings Landing. In my first read through of the Dunk and Egg Tales, specifically the last one with Bloodraven himself in it, there is definitely a sense that Bloodraven has spies everywhere dialed into the world. But I didn't pick up much hinting at his greenseerer destiny. Did I miss something, or do we have an idea when BR went down the path towards a being a greenseerer? I've only read that its assumed to be sometime after he was shipped off to the wall.

While it seems Bran may still have lots to learn from BloodRaven, doing so verbally in the same room doesn't seem needed when you can connect to the weirnet and seemingly communicate many other ways. I don't see why he can't continute through distance ed. Plus yeah, are all his companions including his direwolf supposed to starve to death in the cave? I think its clear he is going to leave, Bran has never been a loner type.

[summer_stark]

Does he not need a weirwood throne to connect to the weirnet? If so, I wonder if there are some south of the wall? Obviously Winterfel crypts somewhere would be an easy place for one to be hiding. But what about somewhere in the Red Keep or Kings Landing. In my first read through of the Dunk and Egg Tales, specifically the last one with Bloodraven himself in it, there is definitely a sense that Bloodraven has spies everywhere dialed into the world. But I didn't pick up much hinting at his greenseerer destiny. Did I miss something, or do we have an idea when BR went down the path towards a being a greenseerer? I've only read that its assumed to be sometime after he was shipped off to the wall.

No, he doesn't need to be on a weirwood throne or at a weirwood tree. The end if his last ADWD chapter, he is using his greensight while in his little cave bedroom/cubby. He isn't at or on a weirwood. The paste connected him, now he can see whenever, wherever. BR is connected to the weirwood to extend his life--not use his greensight.

We don't know when BR got his greensight. Obv he had great control over his warging, since he knew what was going on everywhere. "A thousand eyes and one." Obv choice is that he was warging ravens--could be just like Varys, but since warging can be learned without going to the caves, the most accepted theory is that he was warging. But, it's unclear whether he could also greensee at that time. Probably not. He prolly stayed in the caves bc he was old and a NW deserter.

[Southron_Ambitions]

Because it's pretty hard to move around when you are a tree.

[ghost of Harrenhall]

Bran is not tied to the trees yet, and probably will not be for sometime. So that is not holding him down, winter is. Bran could leave at any time, but would most likely run in to some WW. They almost didn't get, into the cave, how will they get out. They are surrounded.

there is the caves are all linked theory, which is cool. but makes the journey too and past the wall a little pointless.

( maybe they will all just ride giant eagles/ravens,home) ;)

[LadyMary]

I feel bad for Bran because he was drawn to Bloodraven believing he would walk again and basically got a bait-and-switch tree-vision instead. Kind of sucks, but at least he's able to do something he couldn't before.

However, his spine is severed, and unless the tree has some magical spinal chord fusing magic juice, Bran will always be a paraplegic. That means he has the best chance to impact the course of Westeros by being part of the old gods weirwood network, rather than just a crippled boy stranded beyond the Wall with a couple of friends and a servant on whom he's dependent.

I'm sure Bloodraven wants to die after more than a lifespan of waiting for a replacement and once Bran has gotten the knack of his god-business, Bloodraven will pass away leaving Bran in charge. Perhaps Bran will not be stuck there forever, but I think he will kept safe inside the warded cave until the Spring comes. Maybe then they can all leave and return South.

[Khal_Rhaego]

A popular theory, but the difficulty is that dragons are not ordinary beasts (and therefore susceptible to warging) but magical ones; fire made flesh

Has GRRM clarified that point? I thought he wouldn't answer that question.

I would tend to agree with you, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they just took a lot of "talent" to warg

This just made me think of Ghost as Nissa Nissa...I really hope not.

[Apple the Great]

I always thought that Bran, an the absolute Warg was going to control a Dragon and therefore tame one and pull off some super union with Daenrys.

I'm holding out hope for a Bran, the King of the North, and Daenerys, Queen of the Six Kingdoms, marriage with a legitimate child (who would be a Stark) as a successor to all of the Kingdoms, healing North/South divides. Call me a dreamer!

A popular theory, but the difficulty is that dragons are not ordinary beasts (and therefore susceptible to warging) but magical ones; fire made flesh

Dragons are still living creatures and they don't seem to be that intelligent. One would think if a powerful skinchanger can control other people, then a powerful skinchanger can control dragons. I personally think that Bran is the key to taming/breaking in/controlling all the dragons.

I really don't think there is any indication that Bran has to, or is expected to stay under the tree. He was brought to the tree by BR to prepare him for something, and BR implies that this something is to do with winter:

Now you know

, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder.

Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming

. Bran III AGoT

BR seems pretty damned powerful, why would he need Bran? Well several reasons probably. Firstly, BR is getting on a bit and maybe he's even foreseen that his death is soon, in which case he needs to pass on his knowledge and skills to someone who is capable of defending the realm against the Others (which is what I assume he means by winter). But, I don't think that BR is going to soon to be honest, I just get the impression that he'll eventually become part of the tree but it will take a number of years yet. This is speculation, but perhaps Bran's powers actually exceed BR's and to skin change into a dragon actually requires more power than BR has, which would be a reason for BR to teach Bran. One thing we can agree on, is that Bran is less infirm and more mobile that BR, in which case, maybe BR needs Bran to be able to go around the world with his powers doing awesome stuff.

I admit, Bran is one of my favourite characters and I'm pinning all my Stark hopes on him and so I'm a little reluctant to believe that he's going to sit under a cave from the age he is (11/12?) until he reaches BR's age. But to be honest, I haven't seen a convincing argument as to why Bran must remain at that specific weirwood, or indeed any weirwood to access his powers, and staying under the tree doesn't really seem like what Bran would like. Wasn't he super frustrated when he was confined to his room when he had just been paralysed and wanted to be out running and climbing etc? He may not be able to go running, but at least being carried by Hodor allows him a certain amount of mobility and freedom.

Bran was also a boy who dreamed of being a knight in the Kingsguard and famous in songs and tales and having adventures. His powers give him the ability to actually do things; potentially to defeat the Others, rebuild Winterfell (and the Wall?) and ride dragons. I'm sure Bran would not pass up these things to dedicate the rest of his life to sitting under a tree.

[GrandPoobah]

I think that in some point in the series BR or the cotf are gonna do something that horrifies Bran (real power comes with a price, that seems to be a theme here), and hes gonna rebel against them. Martin wouldnt have spent so much time on his character if he was gonna be stuck in a cave for the rest of his life

Nah, he'll be in that cave, pulling the strings of people elsewhere. He already sort of saved Theon, didn't he?

[JackDanielson]

I'm just about resigned to thinking that he will be stuck where he is indefinitely, so that his powers can benefit the realm and help determine the outcome of the battle to come.

Warging dragons does seem too predicitable but maybe he can disable them by attempting to warg much like when Varamyr attempted to warg into his companion and they

just about tore themself to pieces. This would counter the dragons to some extent but am unsure were GRRM will head.

[GrandPoobah]

I don't at all see him as "stuck."

What he is is an interesting character. Had he not been a lordling (and later a prince) someone would've left him outside for the wolves. Even as a lordling and potential heir he'd be all-but-useless in the eyes of most folks in that setting.

He's currently got some abilities that allow him to do what nobody else can do. He can see all sorts of things, past and present. Wherever there's a tree or a critter he can warg into. Through the birds he can send people messages they don't even know they're getting. He's a living character who acts as a deus-ex-machina, something akin to a wizard or soothsayer. Someone who can't go anywhere or do anything but who can find things out and inform those who know enough to listen.

It's brilliant. Why on earth would you want to "fix" that?