Why would Bran stay with BR for his entire lifetime?

[Black Crow]

Maybe saving Sam was a way to get to Bran and bring him to the forest since they could not go through the gate.

I think that's pretty obvious; what's more interesting is the question of why pick on Sam to do it rather than any of the other scattered fugitives from the Nights Watch, and that I suspect may be down to Sam having said his vows to the Old Gods and thus being True

[FanTasy]

Hmm ... there are a lot of clues in the Jon/Sam-chapters, have to re-read them soon in my re-read by character project ...

I thought the importance of the scene with the secret gate at the Nightfort was not just Sam being the turnkey for Bran, so Bran and his party could reach the Children of the Forest, but also to get Gilly's child at the other side of the wall.

By the way, Gilly's child is one of Crasters sons. The baby could pass through the weirwood door and was not influenced as far as we know by magical protection.

So I think it is clear that if Craster's sons are Others, they are made so after birth and after being offered to the Others, that they are 'otherfied'?

[Black Crow]

Its something that had occurred to me, but even if Craster's sons are being taken because there's something special about them, Gilly's baby was carried through just as Jafer and Othor were.

[FanTasy]

Its something that had occurred to me, but even if Craster's sons are being taken because there's something special about them, Gilly's baby was carried through just as Jafer and Othor were.

It could be. I wonder about Gilly's baby though, and the role it could play in the bigger picture. I think it was not just 'conceived' as a hint for what happened to Crasters sons, or as the 'swap' for the baby that is supposed to be the more important one, Mances child.

Do we know that Mance knew that his baby was swapped? Val knew, so I think Mance would know too.

But having not Mance's baby but one of Craster's son at Castle Black could be important, if it would turn out that the Others are not an evil species. Or the child could be important in showing the effects of what was done by human babies by the evil force (whoever that may be).

And it is important to know that if Crasters sons are the Others, they are basically human by origin.

[FanTasy]

Getting back on topic: I think Bran's fate is to stay in that cave. Probably not with Bloodraven for long, I think it is obvious that Bloodraven will die soon after he learned Bran the tricks of the trade. Maybe if the Children of the Forest turn to be the Evil Empire, somebody could free and save Bran. Or just his 'mind' could escape using Hodor or Summer. There may be few possibilities for a true happy ending for Bran, though. :crying:

[Eyron]

Hmm ... there are a lot of clues in the Jon/Sam-chapters, have to re-read them soon in my re-read by character project ...

I thought the importance of the scene with the secret gate at the Nightfort was not just Sam being the turnkey for Bran, so Bran and his party could reach the Children of the Forest, but also to get Gilly's child at the other side of the wall.

By the way, Gilly's child is one of Crasters sons. The baby could pass through the weirwood door and was not influenced as far as we know by magical protection.

So I think it is clear that if Craster's sons are Others, they are made so after birth and after being offered to the Others, that they are 'otherfied'?

I think "othered" is the correct term ;) as in "Consider yourself othered, son of Craster"

They are normal babies when they are born of course, I don't understand how it could be any other way, it never crossed my mind really.

I think being othered is a process similar to the one Melisandre went through. We don't know much of how it happened but she was a normal girl before, and then had to go through some painful changes to become a creature of fire. This is one of the reasons I think the Others are men but they have transcended normal life by the magic of ice, just like Melisande is no longer human really.

On topic, I can't see any completely convincing evidence or explanations either way. Bran is now our POV in the Childrens camp and our eyes in the past and will be able to see very far so he will give us a lot of interesting stuff to read without leaving. But I can also see him leaving because there has been many references to other weirwood caverns and a lot of hints to tunnels connecting them.

I think Bran will stay with the Children for as long as we need a POV in the Childrens camp (since they are essential to the events in my view) which to me could be for a long time since the battle for Dawn is likely to be long, but they could move to another cavern perhaps. Maybe Bloodraven dies and Bran gets to call the shots and want to help his friends to go back south of the Wall. I personally would like to see a cave expedition, and perhaps they will go through the tunnels south. That seems like a possible scenario, and the most pleasing one to the readers.

The way the story unfolds in that cave, with the greenseers of old sitting on their weir-thrones and Bran loosing sense of time, gave me the feeling that he will be stuck to a tree eventually, but I guess I am a pessimist. It could be a narrative tactic to make us fear for Bran and co. My impression was that that is what it takes to be a greenseer, and it could be in the cave or maybe in Winterfell under the hearttree. He could still be the one that rebuilds Winterfell. I expect him to become a very strong greenseer and warg so he will have other means to communicate than to go places himself.

It all depends on how tragic the author wants to his story to be, and I think GRRM can choose to make it very tragic, I don't put it past him at all.

[Lord Damian]

I am curious, did Bloodraven replace someone else or is he the first man-tree or Treeture (A little ugly Americans lingo)?

[Brucolac]

I was looking at wiertree appearances in the books the other day to see what Bloodraven or maybe even Bran might have seen or said to people throughout the books and I came across the Jon in Whitetree chapter.

It looks like Jon might have warged into Ghost when he was dying, but from the Varamyr prologue we see that people lose their own persona when in the body of an animal. So, it might not be a place he can stay for long and still be Jon; as smart as the direwolves seem. When Jon touches the old wierwood in Whitetree, he can feel power in it. Possibly, he can use the trees as well.

[slayer420]

You can't fly if your stuck in a cave. I dont think Bloodraven meant warging either. If that was the case he already warged a crow.

[boiled leather]

He obviously won't. The whole thing is the 5-year gap issue.

Clearly, Martin intended Bran and Arya to be apprenticed during the interim, then go about their badass "the wolves will return" business. Eliminating the gap means we get to see more Bloodraven+Bran time.

But Bran staying with Bloodraven makes no sense at all. Bloodraven has to stay, he's a tree, he can't move. Plus once the Others come in force, that cave is going to be a very dangerous place to be.

And Bran clearly has an endgame. He can't accomplish this in a cave beyond the Wall, sitting on a tree. He will move South and re-enter the main plot. I frankly don't understand why people have this notion of Bran being stuck as a tree in that cave, it just does not compute in any way.

no I haven't read theENTIRE thread, but doesn't it make sense that Jojen is the Greenseer? He allows Bran to leave go all Errol Flynn on the South :)

[Ibbison from Ibben]

what's more interesting is the question of why pick on Sam to do it rather than any of the other scattered fugitives from the Nights Watch, and that I suspect may be down to Sam having said his vows to the Old Gods and thus being True

It may not have to do with how Sam said his vows, but something similar. Just before the wights attack Sam and Gilly in the village, Sam prays for help at the Heart Tree. Kind of a 911 call, with BR as the dispatcher. Coldhands was in the area, looking for a brother to get through the gate (since BR would know that Bran was close to the Nightfort), so...

[mediterraneo]

Back out of topic....

Hmm ... there are a lot of clues in the Jon/Sam-chapters, have to re-read them soon in my re-read by character project ...

I thought the importance of the scene with the secret gate at the Nightfort was not just Sam being the turnkey for Bran, so Bran and his party could reach the Children of the Forest, but also to get Gilly's child at the other side of the wall.

By the way, Gilly's child is one of Crasters sons. The baby could pass through the weirwood door and was not influenced as far as we know by magical protection.

So I think it is clear that if Craster's sons are Others, they are made so after birth and after being offered to the Others, that they are 'otherfied'?

I agree with Black Crow, the point is not that the door stops humans: the door opens only for a watchmen.

It is different for Coldhands, because he is dead, or it could be that it is not different for Coldhands, but he lies.

He said that he could not pass, but if we suspect him of having a dark agenda, with or without someone directing him, he could have lied to make Bran cross the Wall. The point was always bringing Bran to Bloodraven and the Children.

What is the role of the Crannogmen in this? They too are ready to sacrifice a lot to bring Bran over there. Jojen particularily seems to know the day in which he will die.

It may not have to do with how Sam said his vows, but something similar. Just before the wights attack Sam and Gilly in the village, Sam prays for help at the Heart Tree. Kind of a 911 call, with BR as the dispatcher. Coldhands was in the area, looking for a brother to get through the gate (since BR would know that Bran was close to the Nightfort), so...

If and only if the Stark are specials to the Others, and Bloodraven and Coldhands are linked to them in some way, and the Raven is warged by Bloodraven, Sam could have been spared by the Other he slew (at cost of his "life") with the purpose of letting Coldhands to contact with one of Jon's trusted confidents.

Sam was the only watchman armed with obsidian, but he is also the worst fighter of the Watch. And Waymar Royce and all of the other Watchmen who dueled with them found it difficult to land even ineffectual blows on the Others. Sam took "him" by surprise, but...

A friend of Jon would surely help Bran to pass.

Then Coldhands would have lingered around Craster's Tower, a place where we did not see Others or Wights, if I remember correctly, just to wait for him to get out, and bring him to Castle Black, where they had a cite with the green dreamer. "Who sends the Green Dreams?" Comes to be an increasely interesting question.

To make a comparison with the "911 call" example: if you want to be sure that someone will call the police when you are disguised as a policeman in front of their door, you could send in some warged wight to knock at the door, to make sure a call will be made.

How did that encounter go? Similarly or quite differently from the encounter outside Bloodraven's cave? Did Coldhands have to move a hand, to make the wights stay far from him?

If I'm not remembering very bad, that is a slight difference from what was shown to Bran. And it could be worthy of questions.

[LadyMary]

You can't fly if your stuck in a cave. I dont think Bloodraven meant warging either. If that was the case he already warged a crow.

Well, unless Weirwood juice has magical healing properties, Bran isn't going to be flying in any way other than by warging. Right now, Bran has the ability to travel all over the continent and across the sea just by warging. That's pretty cool for a kid with no use of his legs.

[solarbear]

Most likely Bran will stay in the cave.

I see him being instrumental in working out how to defeat the others by finding essential info.

Also, perhaps warging and leading an army of wolves to defend the realm.

I don't see any happy future for him.

[DurararaFTW]

Well, unless Weirwood juice has magical healing properties, Bran isn't going to be flying in any way other than by warging. Right now, Bran has the ability to travel all over the continent and across the sea just by warging. That's pretty cool for a kid with no use of his legs.

He didn't get that by giving up his legs, he got that by giving absolutely everything else too. Friends, family, daylight, riding horses, proper meals. And for the record, as Bloodraven says, he's not supposed to be able to interact with stuff. He gave it all up, for just being able to watch things from the wiertrees. It's a good thing he's exceptionally good at this, but even then, I'd prefer my life back. Legs or no.

[LadyMary]

He didn't get that by giving up his legs, he got that by giving absolutely everything else too. Friends, family, daylight, riding horses, proper meals. And for the record, as Bloodraven says, he's not supposed to be able to interact with stuff. He gave it all up, for just being able to watch things from the wiertrees. It's a good thing he's exceptionally good at this, but even then, I'd prefer my life back. Legs or no.

Oh, I agree with you. I think if Bran were given the choice of his legs and living an ordinary life with a wife and keep, or being able to fly the world through skinchanging, he'd choose his legs and life over a lifetime trapped in a broken body with only his mind to free him. I'm just sayin' - it's not a bad consolation to have the ability to "fly", if miraculous healing is not possible.

[mor2]

I don't see any reason for him to stay with the 3EC once the war with the Others is over. I don't understand why people believe that he will stay with BR for his lifetime? Bran will rebuild the wall and Winterfell with the help of COTF. He is Brandon Stark come again. \Bran/

I dont think there would be need for the wall after that, plus it seems to me that from there he gets a place among the "gods" and get to influence the world in more profound way. It surely beats riding hodor in that ~medieval setting, which shouldnt be very hospitable for handicapped opportunity or attitude wise, even for lord.

[Lord Godric]

Bloodraven was pretty specific about that; Bran will never walk again, but by sitting in the weirwood he will see and manipulate things far beyond.

Is that really what he says? I don't have my book with me, but does Bloodraven specifically mention that Bran has to sit on the Weirwood throne for his powers to work? I do not see why Bran has to stay in the cave to use his powers. Once he has control over them he should be able to use them whenever and wherever. The only reason Bloodraven appears to be on the throne was because without the life support of the tree he would die. Bran doesn't need that life support, not yet, so I do not see why the weirwood throne is important to Bran whatsoever.

[Nev yn]

Well, unless Weirwood juice has magical healing properties, Bran isn't going to be flying in any way other than by warging. Right now, Bran has the ability to travel all over the continent and across the sea just by warging. That's pretty cool for a kid with no use of his legs.

That interpretation makes Bloodraven's statement meaningless. He tells Bran he will never walk again, but he will fly. If he's referring to warging, Bran can walk just as well as he can fly.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Bloodraven is failing, without him the CotF don't have a greenseer, which are extremely rare and so not like to find another for a long while. Besides, in the final ADwD Bran chapter he figured:

Bran's come to accept his fate.

Winterfell has a weirwood tree so why would Bran have to stay there to access the weirwood network?