Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies"

[Sci-2]

@Humble Asskicker: Perhaps you might start with examples of hysteria. I suspect we have different examples we'd bring up. Unless we're both talking about criticism leading to fatwas? ;-P

In any case, I already brought up Tyrion's sexual assault in that he was forced into raping Tysha. Not only do I think it has been handled well, it has major bearing on how Tyrion treats both Sansa positively and Shae negatively. I'd go so far as to say the whole thing has been masterful.

ETA: Also the rape in Bluest Eye, and the one in Lovely Bones. Requires Only that You Hate has some other examples, are we allowed to link her reivews?

ETA II: Upon finishing it, the rape in Swamplandia that Larry put in spoiler tags.

ETA III: And just to spur discussion, in each of the cases mentioned above the rapes are not eroticized. They are all clearly, by language chosen, directing the reader to feel horrible.

I have not read Swamplandia, so let me say for the others they have a major bearing on the rest of the novel. They are not a throwaway scene, but rather defining for the characters involved. These actions have major bearing in the novel and say something about rape and the RL world.

[Humble Asskicker]

In any case, I already brought up Tyrion's sexual assault in that he was forced into raping Tysha. Not only do I think it has been handled well, it has major bearing on how Tyrion treats both Sansa positively and Shae negatively. I'd go so far as to say the whole thing has been masterful.

It didn't need to be a gang rape though. It didn't even need to be a rape at all. As it is, clearly - whether intentional or not - the text seems to support the old cliche that a woman reaching too high above her station desperately needs to be humiliated with some deep dicking by multiple men. Pretty offensive stuff, I'd say. Tywin could have instead just threatened Tysha's life if Tyrion didn't get rid of her. This is just a suggestion on my part. I am naturally not as creative as the author, so it's incumbent upon them to find alternative ways of expressing their theme if they are plainly incapable of handling rape in a considerate manner - such as GRRM with Tysha.

I'll get to the others later.

[Sci-2]

I fear for the institution that taught you reading comprehension.

ETA: Assuming you've read Bluest Eye or Lovely Bones, I await your critiques with both dread and morbid curiosity.

ETA II: I'm also waiting for examples of this hysteria you felt was occurring. I didn't think Richard's post was that bad. ;-P

[Verboten]

Humble to answer your question I really really hate rape scenes in general. They are completely unnecessary and I feel they work better when the rape is never shown. Rape in books should be used sparingly if at all, and I do not want to read some swords and wizards book and stumble across a rape scene described in such loving detail that it makes me physically ill because how anyone could think this of all things would make good drama confounds me. This has happened to people I love and imagining it horrifies me and imagining them having to relive their experiences because some dumbass thought it would be oh so dark and REAL to shove sexual assault into popular media makes me feel terrible. Reading about it disgusts and enrages me, especially when it's treated badly. So no rape should never be used as a plot device. Ever. Sexual assault and the consequences are only done well when the focus is not on the rapist and his punishment, not on the well meaning boyfriend or parent or friend or sibling who is SO deeply affected by this that they are given the ultimate task of confronting the villain violently instead of letting the victim do that themselves, if they want to.

In short good stories that focus on sexual assault are told from the victims perspective and deal not with the act itself, but on how they heal and recover. It's hard for me to say this is the only way to do it because people react to sexual assault differently, have different ways of coping, and of course the skill the author possesses can turn shit into gold. But rape scenes like the ones in Abercombies book are never acceptable and I feel no guilt whatsoever if his pwecious feelings were hurt because someone looked at the disturbing undercurrents in that scene.

[Contrarius]

ETA: Assuming you've read Bluest Eye or Lovely Bones, I await your critiques with both dread and morbid curiosity.

I haven't read Bluest Eye, but I did read Lovely Bones. That was reaaaaaally tough to read.

[jurble]

Humble to answer your question I really really hate rape scenes in general. They are completely unnecessary and I feel they work better when the rape is never shown. Rape in books should be used sparingly if at all, and I do not want to read some swords and wizards book and stumble across a rape scene described in such loving detail that it makes me physically ill because how anyone could think this of all things would make good drama confounds me. This has happened to people I love and imagining it horrifies me and imagining them having to relive their experiences because some dumbass thought it would be oh so dark and REAL to shove sexual assault into popular media makes me feel terrible. Reading about it disgusts and enrages me, especially when it's treated badly. So no rape should never be used as a plot device. Ever. Sexual assault and the consequences are only done well when the focus is not on the rapist and his punishment, not on the well meaning boyfriend or parent or friend or sibling who is SO deeply affected by this that they are given the ultimate task of confronting the villain violently instead of letting the victim do that themselves, if they want to.

See, I disagree with you. Rape is exceedingly common in real life, and to use it sparingly is to deny reality when an author is trying to be realistic. Your view on rape scenes is entirely colored by your emotions and isn't logical. Rape scenes can be necessary depending on the story, and they can work well. Why should rape be used sparingly when 1/5 American women have either experienced rape or attempted rape? The fact that people you know have experienced sexual assault and you imagine them reliving their experiences and that makes you angry, well I can sympathize. But literature is not written entirely for you.

Moreover, consider that people have experienced things other than rape that are violent and traumatic. I saw my cousin get shot in the head. Yet, I don't get pissed whenever I read about someone getting shot in the head, or when someone uses a rifle to kill someone. It doesn't bother me. At the same time, I understand there are other humans who in my situation might be traumatized. To them, the entire situation is colored by their emotional responses.

Yet, emotion should not be the basis of judging literature. If something disturbs or bothers you, do not read it. But to call it objectively bad writing, or to state that using rape as a plot device is objectively wrong entirely on the basis of the emotional response you feel is poor criticism.

[Humble Asskicker]

I fear for the institution that taught you reading comprehension.

Uh-huh. So I provide a constructive explanation of why Tysha's rape is unacceptable, and you reaction is an ad hominem. I hope that was meant somehow as circumspect agreement to my point, because I don't see what purpose insulting me serves.

ETA: Assuming you've read Bluest Eye or Lovely Bones, I await your critiques with both dread and morbid curiosity.

I haven't read either of those, but here is my take on Larry's insert (so to speak, haha rape joke...wait, was that inappropriate considering the discussion?). Here you go:

It's written in a creepily titillating fashion, as if the author was getting off on writing the passage and thought they'd share their disgusting arousal with the public. The kid is getting porked, is in pain and the author seems to positively relish it, considering the detail they put into the scene. It's also irresponisble. What if a rape victim read that? The amount of detail seems directed specifically to re-trigger a flashback.

Verboten,

I agree and sympathize. I feel the same way about murder and torture. And assault. And theft. And sacrilege. And rudeness. Authors apparently don't give a damn about us. Maybe some day there will be laws to protect our sensibilities, but for now we just have to muster up and deal, I guess. Maybe quit reading and watching television for our own protection.

Incidentally, I know more people - men and women - who have been raped than I can count on all my fingers and toes. Not exaggerating. So we both have credentials, it appears.

[Verboten]

done

Thank you. This conversation is making me far too upset I'm removing myself.

[Sci-2]

Uh-huh. So I provide a constructive explanation of why Tysha's rape is unacceptable, and you reaction is an ad hominem. I hope that was meant somehow as circumspect agreement to my point, because I don't see what purpose insulting me serves.

No, you were being (I hope) deliberately obtuse. You simply took the argument against the Terez rape scene and then stuck that in front of the plot of Tyrion and Tysha. I suspect this was your intention from the moment you asked for a scene, which meant you weren't at all interested in having a discussion in so much as you thought you'd be "clever".

Your trivializing of the topic of rape is worthless and adds nothing to the discussion.

[Humble Asskicker]

Your trivializing of the topic of rape is worthless and adds nothing to the discussion.

Your unwillingness to consider any opposition of opinion on your position of rape trivializes the topic of rape, therefore making you an inert factor and worthless to the discussion, adding nothing to it.

[Contrarius]

But rape scenes like the ones in Abercombies book are never acceptable and I feel no guilt whatsoever if his pwecious feelings were hurt because someone looked at the disturbing undercurrents in that scene.

1. There is no actual "rape" scene. The rape itself isn't shown at all. At most, there's a "foreplay/fondling" scene.

2. If you don't care about Abercrombie's "pwecious feelings", why do you expect anyone to care about yours?

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Please act like adults. That includes, but is not limited to, 1) no personal attacks and 2) do not antagonize people who have already bowed out of the thread due to emotional duress. [/mod]

[Sci-2]

Um, if you go back you'll see I stated at least twice I found validity of the counter arguments. Yours isn't an argument in good faith. After the topic had moved on, you stated (twice) that you wanted a scene I or Kalbear had done well. I gave you more than one, in different posts, and why I thought they differed from the garbage scene involving Terez.

From there, after Verboten wrote a heartfelt explanation about why she is opposed to depictions of rape (not that 100% agree with her) you reply with mockery.

This is why I think you trivialize rape. So if you can offer me a similar explanation how I'm trivializing rape, I'd be happy to apologize.

Additionally, on the off chance you are interested in actually having a discussion, feel free to reply to why you think the criticisms I and others have leveled against the Terez scene can be applied to the Tysha and Tyrion scene.

[Contrarius]

Moreover, consider that people have experienced things other than rape that are violent and traumatic. I saw my cousin get shot in the head. Yet, I don't get pissed whenever I read about someone getting shot in the head, or when someone uses a rifle to kill someone. It doesn't bother me. At the same time, I understand there are other humans who in my situation might be traumatized. To them, the entire situation is colored by their emotional responses.

Yet, emotion should not be the basis of judging literature. If something disturbs or bothers you, do not read it. But to call it objectively bad writing, or to state that using rape as a plot device is objectively wrong entirely on the basis of the emotional response you feel is poor criticism.

Right.

As I mentioned in earlier posts, I was affected by a mass murder. Yet I don't think that authors have any responsibility to avoid mass murders in their fiction just because it might hurt my feelings to read about it. They are not my keepers.

[Grack21]

Ug, I thought Lovely Bones was disgusting.

And I can see how rape in certain books can be off putting if it shows up in a book where realism isnt really the idea. I can't think of any examples, but say, a rape scene thrown randomly in LotR would really be weird and out of place.

And I honestly didn't find the Terez scene "erotic" at all. But that's just my interpretation.

And wow holy shit, 4 new replies while I'm typing it.

Anyway, I think at some point we're going to have to just accept we both read that scene differently, what Abercrombie's actual intentions where we may never know..

I think some pages back someone brought up an interesting point. WHY should the fact that she's a lesbian matter? Would be ok if it was a straight girl getting raped?

[jurble]

I think some pages back someone brought up an interesting point. WHY should the fact that she's a lesbian matter? Would be ok if it was a straight girl getting raped?

Those who dislike the scene in the manner it is written say that having a lesbian there is a callback to the trope that all a lesbian needs is a good raping to set her straight. Kalbear suggested that she should've been straight, and that Glokta should have used a brother or a male lover to extort her.

[Grack21]

Right.

As I mentioned in earlier posts, I was affected by a mass murder. Yet I don't think that authors have any responsibility to avoid mass murders in their fiction just because it might hurt my feelings to read about it. They are not my keepers.

Yeah. We're not their keepers either. I think readers sometimes forget that.

[Grack21]

Those who dislike the scene in the manner it is written say that having a lesbian there is a callback to the trope that all a lesbian needs is a good raping to set her straight. Kalbear suggested that she should've been straight, and that Glokta should have used a brother or a male lover to extort her.

See, I think that's bullshit. This is a dark, fucked up fantasy world. But oh, no lesbians were harmed in the making of this book

[Sci-2]

Yet, emotion should not be the basis of judging literature. If something disturbs or bothers you, do not read it. But to call it objectively bad writing, or to state that using rape as a plot device is objectively wrong entirely on the basis of the emotional response you feel is poor criticism.

I think the big thing here that at least I object to is the appropriation of rape for the purpose of eliciting emotion from the reader. RVCBard at Ars Marginal says it better than me:

I believe that what some posters seem unable to understand is that the problem is not the presence of rape, but the fact that the people using it as a narrative device (plot, setting, or what have you) don’t know the first fucking thing about it. Considering that you are more likely to have a personal relationship with someone who’s experienced sexual assault than someone who’s killed people, if including rape in a story is so fucking necessary, it would be decent of you not to treat it as a cheap way to say how dark and gritty the story is. At least film and TV has the decency to sort of warn you about that shit so you don’t wind up getting inadvertently traumatized because some fucking asshole believes that rape is really goddamn entertaining.

Edit: Link added

[Humble Asskicker]

scibog2

As has been repeated over and over, the audience's interpretation of any given scene is subjective. Abercrombie and GRRM clearly don't support rape, and they both took great pains to produce a text that was sympathetic to rape victims. But there are millions of readers out there, and they all interpret things different, and there will be, regardless of the content of the passage, those who intrepret the text differently - sometimes dramatically differently - than the author intended. Yes, I was throwing what you and Kalbear were doing back into your face, hoping the reverse perspective would be illuminating to you. That doesn't mean there won't be readers who do interpret the text as I sardonically did. I wouldn't think they were interpreting the text correctly, but then I disagree that you or Kalbear are interpreting Albercrombie correctly.

This is not something easily resolved, however, as there's nothing objective about the discussion: it relies entirely on individual interpretation. Something I said in my first post in this thread, because I knew precisely this conversation would take place. I also knew that I wouldn't be able to resist having fun in a debate in which both sides are immovable from their entrenched positions.