Unpopular Opinions, Because We Can Never Get Enough

[Alexia]

I think whats "normal" or not depends on which POV is presented in (and I don't believe that it necessarily reflects the author's opinion).

I don't usually believe that what I'm reading reflects the author's opinion, but when a woman in her mid-30s is presented as a haglike crone who has lost all her beauty (telegraphed previously through LF's commentary) and you are plainly supposed to feel shadenfreude at her sexualized humiliation, I do start looking askance at the author.

Usually, I take the opinions in a book as being reflective of the characters except under unusual circumstances. So Tyrion being a misogynistic ass doesn't mean GRRM is one. But when Cersei is unrealistically plotted into a scenario where she agrees to walk through Main Street naked, and then we get gems like "That can't be the queen," a boy said, "she's saggy as my mum", then I start giving the author the side eye and wondering what the fuck he is trying to say.

[Serie]

I would rather kneel to my betters than risk anarchy and lawlessness.

What is humiliation after all? It's not a real thing, but a feeling, being raped is more than just a feeling.

A woman in an arranged marriage in Westeros usually has some power over who she marries and where she marries.

A wildling woman kidnapped has no such liberty.

we kneel to our betters in real life all the time: we obey the law, we let old people onto trains first, we address members of the clergy as father/reverend/rabbi/pastor/sister/brother and officers as lieutenant/captain/major/colonel/general our teachers as Miss/Sir if we are living in monarchies and have the oppurtunity to meet the queen we say Your Majesty/His Grace.

anarchy presupposes people having moral standards to lead them. It is supposed to be a good thing. It is misinterpreted a lot.

humiliation... it's only a word, but dignity is the most valuable thing a man/woman has.

its ok to choose your partner. what if you don't like him though and have to play happily married ever after for a life-time. At least one (not me) can say, rape is only a moment.

we kneel to our betters, yes, not to our 'betters'. And isn't it a great thing to acknowledge the greatness of others instead of others forcing their "greatness" to you?

am I rude here? I don't wanna be rude. I'm sorry if I am. We had this conversation earlier and I guess the rebel has woken....

I love to charm a girl as sweet as you Serie! :wub: And I love this sun and stars endearment very much too Serie, perhaps I need to reciprocate? I don't want to be selfish or anything...........

see, that's the greatness I was talking about. Slurms is a great man. He always has a nice thing to say and when I make a compliment he always thanks me, he never takes it for granted. I would gladly kneel in front of this man (even though I am kind of a suffragette!) because he brings the best out of me! To make a long story short, you don't have to reciprocate Slurms, calling you "my sun and stars" just makes me happy and I hope it pleases you as well!

[Skeksi]

Unpopular opinion: I realised that I actually find Khal Drogo kind of boring.

I mean, as a character, he has the potential to be interesting- on the one hand, as we see him with Dany, they are becoming fonder of each other, and, perhaps as a result, he seems to "soften" a little, and yet, at the same time, we then see him leading his troops to rape, kill and enslave people. But pretty much the whole purpose of his character in the story is basically to act as character growth for Dany- her marriage to him distances him from Viserys, and gives her the courage to stand up to him, his army gives her hope of gaining her throne back, and his death hardens her and spurs her to hatch the dragons. In that sense, he reminds me of Shae- girl who clearly hasn't had the greatest of pasts, who is in an unconventional business relationship with Tyrion, etc. Potentially interesting, but its pretty clear, IMO, that her whole purpose in the books is to give insight into Tyrion, and have an effect on Tyrion.

I don't mind this too much, they're not "on screen" often enough for it to get truly grating, and I get that there have to be support characters, but it just seems like for two reasonably "major minor characters", they might as well have had "Just here for Dany/ Tyrion's character development" scrawled on their chests.

[Serie]

But when Cersei is unrealistically plotted into a scenario where she agrees to walk through Main Street naked, and then we get gems like "That can't be the queen," a boy said, "she's saggy as my mum", then I start giving the author the side eye and wondering what the fuck he is trying to say.

Oh, now I get it... the "unrealistically plotted" sentence cleared things up for me. Yes, that makes you wonder why a similar scenario was not selected for Aerys or any other male character....

[Slurms McKenzie]

see, that's the greatness I was talking about. Slurms is a great man. He always has a nice thing to say and when I make a compliment he always thanks me, he never takes it for granted. I would gladly kneel in front of this man (even though I am kind of a suffragette!) because he brings the best out of me! To make a long story short, you don't have to reciprocate Slurms, calling you "my sun and stars" just makes me happy and I hope it pleases you as well!

I could never take you for granted Serie!! And yes to receive such sweet endearments from you gives me all sort of warm feelings that I never knew I had..............

But, I umm...about this kneeling in front of me comment Serie.... :blush: .....I hope I'm not reading too much into this.......but erm....you weren't by any chance....you know......*bashful*..........implying.......something.........you know...........because I wouldn't want to presume.......you know.......that you meant....just in case you didn't mean that........but if you did.........erm..........did you?........I.........I'm not quite sure where this rambling is taking me......so I think I'll stop..........but......umm.......did you?... :blushing:

[Serie]

I could never take you for granted Serie!! And yes to receive such sweet endearments from you gives me all sort of warm feelings that I never knew I had..............

But, I umm...about this kneeling in front of me comment Serie.... :blush: .....I hope I'm not reading too much into this.......but erm....you weren't by any chance....you know......*bashful*..........implying.......something.........you know...........because I wouldn't want to presume.......you know.......that you meant....just in case you didn't mean that........but if you did.........erm..........did you?........I.........I'm not quite sure where this rambling is taking me......so I think I'll stop..........but......umm.......did you?... :blushing:

I knew this would happen the minute I pressed the "post" button! and then I thought I should edit but.... ewww, I've unfolded my heart here man, how could you possibly think of such a thing??? typical manly behavior (which is totally acceptable by the way and thank you for thinking of me that way :P)! and by all the sweet talking I'm over and out! sleeping and dreaming seems so promising right now! 'night Slurms and don't think a lot about the kneeling thing, just a little :P

night people, thanks for the wonderful conversation, its really nice to have someone talking while working endlessly in front of the computer :grouphug:

[Slurms McKenzie]

I knew this would happen the minute I pressed the "post" button! and then I thought I should edit but.... ewww, I've unfolded my heart here man, how could you possibly think of such a thing??? typical manly behavior (which is totally acceptable by the way and thank you for thinking of me that way :P)! and by all the sweet talking I'm over and out! sleeping and dreaming seems so promising right now! 'night Slurms and don't think a lot about the kneeling thing, just a little :P

night people, thanks for the wonderful conversation, its really nice to have someone talking while working endlessly in front of the computer :grouphug:

'Sorry bout jumping to that conclusion Serie... :blush: .....I do feel more than a tad bit guilty now........perhaps I got a little ahead of myself there....

But, you know Serie...you need only say the word....... ;)

Anyway goodnight Serie! I really enjoy these conversations of ours......I'll be on the edge of my seat tomorrow waiting to resume...if you're interested that is....and I'll try not to think too much about that by the way....just to set your mind at ease Serie! :wub:

[salt]

What I meant is that putting the poison on Sansa´s head only makes sense if you want her caught and framed; there are a thousand safer ways to carry the poison to the wedding hall (the actual poisoner own sleeve, for example), and, if Littlefinger was planning on kidnapping Sansa and dropping the poison-carrying hairnet to frame her without letting her be caught, it doesn´t make sense to give it to her in first place (what if Sansa just throws it and it´s never found? I doubt the Lannisters had professional forensic teams cleaning the streets around the Reed Keep, and commoners would quickly grab, hide and sell somethig like that); he could have easily planted the poison in her own room to be found later...

There is a flaw there; no matter if the poisoner is Littlefinger, Olenna, both of them or a third party, it makes no sense at all to make Sansa carry the poison around unless she was intended to be apprehended, imprisioned, searched and accused of complicity in the assessination, but Littlefinger didn´t want her captive of the Lannisters, so, we are back to the starting point: either Olenna or whoever conspired with Littlefinger to kill Joffrey wanted Sansa caught and imprisioned, or the hairnet wasn´t really carrying the poison and Littlefinger is messing with Sansa´s head, making her feel guilty of a crime she had nothing to do with...

No no no, Littlefinger definitely wanted Sansa to be "caught" and framed. Remember, Dontos was working for him so Littlefinger knew he could get Sansa out of the city and to his boat. Since shes wanted for the murder of a king, Sansa can't flee the Eyrie or reveal her true identity. Leaving Littlefinger means death. This way, Littlefinger looks like her savior, and she is totally dependent on him. Great way to brainwash her and get some Stockholm Syndrome going.

[salt]

Usually, I take the opinions in a book as being reflective of the characters except under unusual circumstances. So Tyrion being a misogynistic ass doesn't mean GRRM is one. But when Cersei is unrealistically plotted into a scenario where she agrees to walk through Main Street naked, and then we get gems like "That can't be the queen," a boy said, "she's saggy as my mum", then I start giving the author the side eye and wondering what the fuck he is trying to say.

Wait, what? A mother of 3 children looks like a mom, therefore Martin is misogynistic? Can you explain more please?

I don't think this was an unrealistically plotted scenario, seeing as how we already knew this type of thing happened (Tywin doing the same thing to his late father's mistress) and the power of the faith to do such a thing was brought about by Cersei's own questionable choice to grant them extreme powers in return for expunging the debt. Cersei was not described as looking like a hag or a crone, I don't know where you got that from, its pretty clear from the books that shes still hot. Of course a mother of three children in her mid 30s living in a world that hasn't invented bras is going to have some sagging and stretch marks.

The point is that stripped of the majesty, mystery, and fineries of royalty, she is just a woman like any other, and she hates that the smallfolk see her like this. People love tearing down celebrities, that's pretty much the basis of half the magazines and TV shows ever made.

[verona stark]

I love Catelyn Stark. I believe she was quite smart, did what was best and what she could do, and made many right choices. Half the choices I feel are right many people hate her for and think are horribly wrong. Well I don't care. I would've been honored to have someone like Cat as my mother; she's amazing.

Also, I can't stand Dany. I find her boring, presumptuous, proud, and not the brightest crayon in the box, even though she thinks she is. Many people love her - and I'm okay with that, as long as no one gets onto me about my love for Catelyn - but I only care about the dragons when it comes to Dany, and even I'm growing tired with them. It was a little bit of an eye roller to have like five guys searching for her so they could marry her. I'd be okay if she never came back to Westeros.

[Queen Cersei I]

Val? Refined? Wasn't she the one who said that Selyse has more hair on her lip than Val does between her legs? Refined isn't quite the term I'd use to describe her...




Yeah, I was utterly mystified as to why Val had to mention the “hair between my legs” thing in that context. Yuck. Couldn’t she have made her point just as well by saying, “that one has about as much hair on her face as I have on my head?” Where did the “between my legs” thing even come in? Ew.

Also, Val’s comments re: Selyse were positively classy compared to her cracks about little Shireen. She reminded me of LF, who mocked a little 9 year old girl for being scarred by a near deadly childhood interest (apparently, LF likes his little girls hot so he can hit on them :ack: ) Val actually did LF one better, and insisted that Shireen should have been killed rather than mar the beautiful world of Westeros with her horrifying “dead girl” face. Nice.

I suppose it’s all understandable considering Val’s culture, or something but to me it just came off as incredibly nasty and utterly tacky.

Har! refined enough for a wildling maybe.... but I also liked Ygritte more for some reason I can't explain. And Jon has nothing to do with it.
By the way what's with Val's problem with Selyse's moustache???? That's something I expect to hear from guys, they are such animals when it comes to discussing a woman's looks but Val should know better. Wax hurts for old gods sake!!!!


Well, I don’t see why Val (or women in general) should be held to a higher standard of kindness when it comes to discussing the looks of other women. Val’s just as entitled/ justified to mock Selyse’s appearance as any man, imo. And since every man, woman, and child in Westeros already does mock Selyse, I guess Val may as well hop on the train and get with it. :dunno:

Re: waxing—apparently, there is no waxing in Westeros… but there is plucking. In the prologue of ACOK, Maester Cressen mentions that Selyse attempts to pluck her mustache regularly, but (weirdly) never succeeds one bit in doing so. (I’ve always wondered how the hell Cressen would be privy to this bit of information. Does Selyse “Regularly” announce to the castle, “hey, I’m going off to struggle to pluck away my hairy upper lip again, catch you in a few hours?” Whatever.) He also mentions that she “curses it daily,” something that also seems both strange and inexplicable for Cressen to know firsthand. (Does she shout out, “Damn you, mustache, why must you always defeat me/ foil my plans!” like some comic book villain loud enough so that the entire bloody castle can hear her each and every day? Weird.)

White trash ladies, white trash.


Yeah I think it's kind of sad that Val joined in on the mysoginistic teasing of Selyse, I mean it's bad enough that the author seems to consider Selyse worthless because she is ugly, but that Val (who is a woman and should have a bit more sympathy) join in.
It's not like Selyse ever hurt Val.


Yeah, but I guess Val’s hatred for all that is bad (Selyse and her dread mustache) is actually a sign that she is basically decent and on the side of the good. Or something.

IMO, Selyse was supposed to come across as a raging bitch in her treatment of Val, however, IMO, I actually thought Selsyse was, in a rude, insensitive way, trying to help Val out. (By finding a husband for her, and teaching her the ways of the non-wildings.) Nor do I find Selyse’s anger at the wildings refusing to kneel to Stannis to be as stupid/ evil as it was portrayed as. In a hierarchal society like Westeros, it seems normal for Selyse to feel that Val and hers should kneel to king Stannis.

Overall, I kind of doubt Val’s mockery of Selyse was merely a response to her bad personality and mistreatment, since she is mocking Selyse’s “full black beard” before she so much as even meets her. But even the hyper moral Jon Snow cannot help but smile at such delightful little jokes, so I guess who are we, the readers, to blame Val?

[littlespider]

Wait, what? A mother of 3 children looks like a mom, therefore Martin is misogynistic? Can you explain more please?

Have you read any of the last couple of pages of our discussion, or are you just stopping in at the end to insist that OMG YOU UBER-NAZI FEMINISTS R RONG. The explanation has already been offered, many times. You apparently have not bothered to read it.

Cersei's body -- a sagging, unattractive body -- has been stripped of its majesty, yes. Cersei's loss of power is landscaped on the sudden visibility of the unattractiveness of her body: this is sexist. A mother of three, one who lives at the absolute upper crust of society, who has always enjoyed good health, excellent nutrition, et al., is suddenly sagging and ugly? And did you read the persistent point that Alexia made above about women over 30 being portrayed as hags in these books? Whereas the same issue simply does not apply to men?

Go back and read the frakking discussion. Then come and ask your questions.

[salt]

Have you read any of the last couple of pages of our discussion, or are you just stopping in at the end to insist that OMG YOU UBER-NAZI FEMINISTS R RONG. The explanation has already been offered, many times. You apparently have not bothered to read it.

Cersei's body -- a sagging, unattractive body -- has been stripped of its majesty, yes. Cersei's loss of power is landscaped on the sudden visibility of the unattractiveness of her body: this is sexist. A mother of three, one who lives at the absolute upper crust of society, who has always enjoyed good health, excellent nutrition, et al., is suddenly sagging and ugly? And did you read the persistent point that Alexia made above about women over 30 being portrayed as hags in these books? Whereas the same issue simply does not apply to men?

Go back and read the frakking discussion. Then come and ask your questions.

Littlespider, please. This is blatant flaming. My exact words were "Can you explain more please?", and in your mind, that is me insisting, to quote you, "OMG YOU UBER-NAZI FEMINISTS R RONG.". Please. Take a good hard look at your post and ask if this is the way you choose to present yourself to the world.

And yes, I read the entire discussion. People are going to disagree on these forums,I disagreed with the most recent post Alexia made, that's why I asked her to explain it further.

The thing is, people can show some respect and dignity when disagreeing with each other. I highly recommend trying it sometime.

[Alexia]

Wait, what? A mother of 3 children looks like a mom, therefore Martin is misogynistic? Can you explain more please?

I don't think this was an unrealistically plotted scenario, seeing as how we already knew this type of thing happened (Tywin doing the same thing to his late father's mistress) and the power of the faith to do such a thing was brought about by Cersei's own questionable choice to grant them extreme powers in return for expunging the debt. Cersei was not described as looking like a hag or a crone, I don't know where you got that from, its pretty clear from the books that shes still hot. Of course a mother of three children in her mid 30s living in a world that hasn't invented bras is going to have some sagging and stretch marks.

The point is that stripped of the majesty, mystery, and fineries of royalty, she is just a woman like any other, and she hates that the smallfolk see her like this. People love tearing down celebrities, that's pretty much the basis of half the magazines and TV shows ever made.

It is presented as fact that Cersei is aging and losing her beauty, and LF makes a reference to this intended turn of events in AFFC. It is presented as fact that women in their 30s are aging, saggy, and unattractive. And then, Cersei gets to be humbled by undergoing a rather unrealistic process designed to strip her of her dignity and force her to realize, in the most heavy handed way possible, that she's just another saggy unattractive middle aged woman who is mocked even by prostitutes, and has her sexual attractiveness evaluated by every Tom, Dick, and Harry in the most unrealistic, heavy handed, ludicrous way possible.

I don't say that GRRM is misogynistic, by the way, but I do question his motives, his intent, and his thought processes when he wrote this scene. As I said, it comes across as being written for the reader to derive schadenfreude from Cersei's lovingly detailed humiliation, and in other places on the Internet (and even a few posters here) I've seen just that happen. I question his decision to present it as a fact that she has lost her beauty when she is still quite young. I question his decision to present it as a fact that women in their 30s as saggy and unattractive. I expect to suspend my sense of disbelief when I'm reading fantasy novels but this scene didn't suspend it, it shattered it. In sum, I found the entire scene offensive on many different levels.

And it is not clear from the books that she is still hot. It is clear from the books that she is saggy, that she is shaved completely bald, and that she is, in the charming words of one of her father's old guard captains, "just another whore." Her breasts and body were rated in detail by all and sundry, and found wanting. :stillsick:

[Queen Cersei I]

I wish I could help you people who seem to constantly be in pain over this. It's like you read a page, you bristle, you turn the page exclaiming "Oh no he didn't!", you read on enraptured but constantly fuming. It seems so burdened, unnecessarily so. Just enjoy the story!

Yes, Batman has a nifty toolbelt full of gadgets, but he doesn't use them constantly. He knows when to set them aside. If Batman is sitting down to enjoy a pizza, he just uses his hands to eat like the rest of us because there's no need to get the Batrazor involved just then. Feminist literary critique is like that--it's a gizmo on your toolbelt--and you're opting to apply that tool to every page of GRRM when you know damn well it's just going to result in you being miffed. What's the point? Why all the self-imposed aggravation? It's like you're following the example of Inspector Gadget here instead of the wiser Batman. Inspector Gadget was always making life tougher on himself because he insisted on using his hat helicopter instead of just walking the 10ft. to the mailbox, and of course he'd then crash land on the cat and end up feeling lousy for at least 2 seconds, which is an eternity in cartoon time. In real life that'd equate to ~5 minutes of being pissed at what some fictional male character did on page 225 to set the women's movement of the middle ages even further back into the..... middle ages.

I just hope that y'all aren't suffering needlessly is all. If being femme-pissed while reading ASOIAF is part of the fun, then fine, though that still seems a bit like taking issue with ChuckE.Cheese about all the loud kid noise in their establishment. But the sad thing that I fear is happening here is some readers really are trying to escape into escapist literature and they're failing because they're unable to leave behind the usual feminist treatment that they bring to everything they read. I mean, ASOIAF already has enough in it to make the reader tense up without constantly having to glower at everyone for being.... such an 'old-fashioned gentleman' that it makes the reader sick. I mean, is that really adding to the enjoyment of the story? (Having subtitles on the screen can sometimes get distracting too, and can also keep you from being fully engrossed in the reality that's being presented on screen. Similarly, bringing one's own modern context to this story and imposing it on the material may not be the best reading method for GRRM.

I tried. Go ahead and pick this apart if you're so inclined,

No offense, but there's not really much of an argument here to "pick apart." What I see is mostly standard platitudes, a hearty dollop of condescension (those objecting to certain aspects of the book "cannot really enjoy them,"), and a rather interesting but ultimately out of place comparison involving batman. (I am impressed with how you managed to shoe horn in batman, inspector gadget, and kids acting out at Chuck e Cheese's into a single argument, though. :smug: )

People objecting to certain issues in these books and attempting to start discussions does not mean they are "constantly fuming." Or that such people are unable to "understand" or enjoy the books as much as the enlightened folks such as yourself. And your assumption that critics of these books are unable to discern between the sexism inherrent to the Medieval setting of Westeros and sexist messages being put forth by the book itself is condescending.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I've been trying to read this thread, but I keep being distracted by a sudden urge to drop everything and go build a guillotine. I can't shake the feeling that there are some queens who really need killing.

A work isn't sexist just because your favorite characters aren't getting the respect or the treament you think they deserve, on or off the page. However, I respect your choice to ignore the obvious intention of the author to create female villains, to defend the rights and dignity of the upper .01 % of Westerosi woman, and to correct the choices of the remaining 99.99%. After all, a queen's life is so hard, and the lives of her inferiors is so trivial.

And damn that Stannis! He should embrace and support his mate, and do his duty to father the children she wants, even though he finds her physically repugnant. Just the way Sansa and Cersei embraced, supported, and produced heirs for their physically repugnant mates. Or did they?

Sorry if I interrupted anyone's kneeling to her betters. I'm going sign off now and try to find my way out of Ladies Only Liberation and back to the 21st Century. Carry on.

[Queen Cersei I]

I've been trying to read this thread, but I keep being distracted by a sudden urge to drop everything and go build a guillotine. I can't shake the feeling that there are some queens who really need killing.

A work isn't sexist just because your favorite characters aren't getting the respect or the treament you think they deserve, on or off the page. However, I respect your choice to ignore the obvious intention of the author to create female villains, to defend the rights and dignity of the upper .01 % of Westerosi woman, and to correct the choices of the remaining 99.99%. After all, a queen's life is so hard, and the lives of her inferiors is so trivial.

And damn that Stannis! He should embrace and support his mate, and do his duty to father the children she wants, even though he finds her physically repugnant. Just the way Sansa and Cersei embraced, supported, and produced heirs for their physically repugnant mates. Or did they?

Sorry if I interrupted anyone's kneeling to her betters. I'm going sign off now and try to find my way out of Ladies Only Liberation and back to the 21st Century. Carry on.

Yikes! :uhoh: The anger. Erm...so is it acceptable now to imply that you'd like to have a fellow poster beheaded, if done in a suitably sneaky, underhanded fashion, and indirect fashion? Must keep that one in mind for the future. :lol:

Seriously, sorry for taking up valuable thread time to stoop to addressing personal insults, but this one truly was a zinger.

Okay, done with the stooping/ petty fighting over nothing....

Unpopular opinion: I've always loved Sansa, especially when she is (supposedly, people claim) stupid and bratty in AGOT.

I kind of like Obara Sand. (The eldest, apparently rather dim Sandsnake.)

I cannot stand Bronn, and the idea that he's made out to be awesome/ badass makes him all the more annoying for me. Lolys could do so much better. (Anyone else willing to ship Lolys/ Hodor?)

[Angalin]

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This thread is being closed for length, not for personal attacks, but those can be dropped too.

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