Unpopular Opinions, Because We Can Never Get Enough

[Alexia]

Ramsay wanted to turn her into a pair of inferior boots, so I doubt he would have listened to her. But honestly, I got the idea that it isn't considered appropriate to intervene in a relationship between a husband and wife and that was why she didn't go to Ramsay directly.

It seems surprising that Roose didn't go to Ramsay directly though, Tywin had no problem talking directly to Tyrion about his marriage. And Theon could have sat in on the conversation.

[Catastrophe]

Yeah, though he better go to his regular hand for "services" if you know what I mean. Otherwise, that could hurt!

Was it Garlan who tried to comfort Sansa on her wedding to Tyrion? I can't remember -- or maybe he was the one to dance with her.

Garlan is a mystery, one minute he's comforting the bride, the next, dumping the poison in Joff's cup to frame said bride (though primarily the groom) for the murder of the king. I am still scratching my head over that one.

Was Garlan the one who personally did the poisoning? I wasn't even sure that he was in on the conspiracy, it was never really clear which Tyrells knew about it. At any rate, I don't think the Tyrells even knew that Tyrion and Sansa were going to take the blame, that part seemed to be all Littlefinger.

[Alexia]

Was Garlan the one who personally did the poisoning? I wasn't even sure that he was in on the conspiracy, it was never really clear which Tyrells knew about it. At any rate, I don't think the Tyrells even knew that Tyrion and Sansa were going to take the blame, that part seemed to be all Littlefinger.

Read closely. Everyone was watching Joffrey and Margaery cutting the pie, while the huge wine glass was left sitting on the table next to Tyrion... and Garlan. When Joffrey returns to take a nice, deep drink, an addition has been made.

No question in my mind, Garlan poisoned the wine.

[The Mother of The Others]

So LF gives Dontos hairnet O' poison beads, Dontos gifts hairnet to Sansa, ThornQueen fixes Stark's hair at the wedding & removes bead, palms the poison bead into Garlan's hand as she goes to retake her seat??? (This would have the downside of taking Olenna right past the place of the poisoning, meaning there was a chance she could have become a suspect.) Eh. Rereading that section would be good right about now.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I think Lady Olenna handed the poison off to Margaery. Look at the bit where it says "Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey's elbow." Whether Margaery then handed it off to Garlan is a matter of debate (to me, anyway).

[littlespider]

Garlan was the one consistently closest to the wine cup during the whole affair.

And think about it: he's too dang goody-two-shoes perfect. Just can't be the case, not in these books at least!

Now Margaery. I used to think she was a complete innocent in the plot to kill Joffrey, but now I don't think so. She was in on the "monster" conversation with Sansa and the QoT.

[Noimporta]

Margaery needs to be at least aware of the plot, otherwise there's the risk she'll die poisoned as well. We aren't sure she wasn't the one to do the actual poisoning yet.

[RedBean]

It seemed to me like it was Margaery who did the actual poisoning but Garlan could work too, I guess. Maybe even both of them were working on it. Knowing Olenna Tyrell's craftiness, I wouldn't put it past her to have a backup or two in hand in case they needed one. Plus, I always thought that the Tyrells were pretty much all in on the plot to kill Joffrey (except for the oblivious Mace Tyrell). They all seemed way too nonchalant with Margaery marrying Joffrey at the beginning for them to NOT be intending to kill him later on. They all knew his real personality quite well after all (again, excepting Mace Tyrell).

[Alexia]

Garlan was the one consistently closest to the wine cup during the whole affair.

And think about it: he's too dang goody-two-shoes perfect. Just can't be the case, not in these books at least!

And he spent all that time flattering Tyrion and feeding his pride. He did it to ensure that suspicion wouldn't be thrown on Garlan personally, and to ensure that Tyrion was a good patsy. If you look at what he said to Tyrion, he has an excellent lock on Tyrion's insecurities and knows exactly what Tyrion wants to hear. That's the same reason he called out Joffrey when Joffrey dumped the wine on Tyrion.

Tyrion's a smart guy, but he has never once considered that Garlan might have been involved. Which is interesting because the goblet was right next to Garlan when they weren't looking. It seems as though, knowing of Sansa's former betrothal to Willas and how he ruined their plans, and how Lady Olenna had just invited Sansa to Highgarden, that when he was sitting in his cell thinking that he didn't believe she had pulled it off alone, he might have considered a plot between Sansa and the Tyrells. I tend to think that its the most logical line of thought, given his limited knowledge.

[The King in the South]

And he spent all that time flattering Tyrion and feeding his pride. He did it to ensure that suspicion wouldn't be thrown on Garlan personally, and to ensure that Tyrion was a good patsy. If you look at what he said to Tyrion, he has an excellent lock on Tyrion's insecurities and knows exactly what Tyrion wants to hear. That's the same reason he called out Joffrey when Joffrey dumped the wine on Tyrion.

Tyrion's a smart guy, but he has never once considered that Garlan might have been involved. Which is interesting because the goblet was right next to Garlan when they weren't looking. It seems as though, knowing of Sansa's former betrothal to Willas and how he ruined their plans, and how Lady Olenna had just invited Sansa to Highgarden, that when he was sitting in his cell thinking that he didn't believe she had pulled it off alone, he might have considered a plot between Sansa and the Tyrells. I tend to think that its the most logical line of thought, given his limited knowledge.

Man, before I read these boards I thought Garlan was one of the most honorable and nicest guys in the series. Now you've convinced me he's hardly any better than LF :(

[littlespider]

Man, before I read these boards I thought Garlan was one of the most honorable and nicest guys in the series. Now you've convinced me he's hardly any better than LF :(

You think Garlan is hardly better than Littlefinger because he murdered a known sadist who who would have hurt his sister?

Garlan's character skyrocketed in my eyes when I realized he had the balls to pull this off.

[The King in the South]

You think Garlan is hardly better than Littlefinger because he murdered a known sadist who who would have hurt his sister?

Garlan's character skyrocketed in my eyes when I realized he had the balls to pull this off.

I meant more that he let Tyrion take the fall for him. The killing joffrey part was cool, but the whole blame it on somebody innocent really kinda defeats the whole "Gallant" part about him.

[Alexia]

I meant more that he let Tyrion take the fall for him. The killing joffrey part was cool, but the whole blame it on somebody innocent really kinda defeats the whole "Gallant" part about him.

Tyrion is hardly an innocent. Sansa, on the other hand... I do most of my raging over the Tyrells because they were willing to send an abused child to her death to cover up their crimes.

But I agree with Littlespider -- Garlan pulling this off to protect his sister and brother, and rid the realm of Joffrey AND Tyrion in one fell stroke put massive points in his column for me.

[The King in the South]

Tyrion is hardly an innocent. Sansa, on the other hand... I do most of my raging over the Tyrells because they were willing to send an abused child to her death to cover up their crimes.

But I agree with Littlespider -- Garlan pulling this off to protect his sister and brother, and rid the realm of Joffrey AND Tyrion in one fell stroke put massive points in his column for me.

Innocent in the sense that he had nothing to do with Joffrey's murder, as much as he may have wanted to. I don't think Tyrion's a good guy either.

I just don't think a guy named X the Gallant should be murdering people and then setting up other people to take the fall. Just let Marg or Olenna do it please -.-. We need a few "true" knights in this series!

[littlespider]

I meant more that he let Tyrion take the fall for him. The killing joffrey part was cool, but the whole blame it on somebody innocent really kinda defeats the whole "Gallant" part about him.

You do have a point. Tyrion is innocent in this. And was it Garlan who acknowledged to Tyrion that he had effectively saved KL from Stannis' army? So Garlan was essentially the one person who thanked him. I might not be remembering correctly, but if I am, that is cold, man.

But from the Tyrell point of view, Tyrion is the perfect scapegoat for Joffrey's murder.

It makes me wonder how the Tyrells would have responded if Sansa had not booked.

I should be murdering people and then setting up other people to take the fall. Just let Marg or Olenna do it please -.-. We need a few "true" knights in this series!

Heh. THERE ARE NO TRUE KNIGHTS RAR!!!

Well, except for Brienne. And she's not really a knight.

[Catastrophe]

Man, before I read these boards I thought Garlan was one of the most honorable and nicest guys in the series. Now you've convinced me he's hardly any better than LF :(

Yeah. It's amazing how much a slightly different interpretation of one scene can completely change your outlook on a character. I used to think that the Tyrells (and especially Garlan) were decent people and that they didn't plan to have Tyrion and Sansa take the blame for Joffrey's death. The more I read Alexia's theory, though, the more it all fits into place. Wow, just... wow. Garlan, you bastard.

Tyrion is hardly an innocent. Sansa, on the other hand... I do most of my raging over the Tyrells because they were willing to send an abused child to her death to cover up their crimes.

But I agree with Littlespider -- Garlan pulling this off to protect his sister and brother, and rid the realm of Joffrey AND Tyrion in one fell stroke put massive points in his column for me.

:rolleyes: Not gonna open that can of worms again, but I will say this: Tyrion really was innocent in the case of Joffrey's death, and even if you think he's a horrible person for his other actions (I don't, but that's beside the point), there's no way the Tyrells would know that.

[Ser Lepus]

I don´t buy the hairnet tale...why would Olenna Tyrell, or any other guest to the wedding, for that matter, need Sansa to carry the poison? why not carrying it themselves? I´m fairly sure none of them were searched at the door, and using the hairnet only increases the chances of being seen taking one of the fake amethysts (I think pulling a gem from somebody else head is more conspicuous than taking it from your own sleeve).

The only plausible explanation for the hairnet would be that somebody wanted Sansa to get caught and framed, but that would fit maybe Olenna or even Oberyn, but not Littlefinger, who was the one pulling Dontos´ strings.

[Noimporta]

Tyrion is hardly an innocent. Sansa, on the other hand... I do most of my raging over the Tyrells because they were willing to send an abused child to her death to cover up their crimes.

But I agree with Littlespider -- Garlan pulling this off to protect his sister and brother, and rid the realm of Joffrey AND Tyrion in one fell stroke put massive points in his column for me.

Hey, while Tyrion is a pretty terrible person on a personal level, he's probably been a positive agent to the realm as a whole.

I don't think they really wanted to frame Sansa but rather had to work her into it. After all, they wanted to marry her off to Willas, and they hardly could achieve that if she was found guilty of kingslaying.

Also, given that they were conspiring with Littlefinger, whose plan involves Sansa being lady of both the Vale and the North, they were probably planning on getting Tommen to pardon her/undo the veredict. Still coldhearted, but not actively malicious.

[salt]

I'm not sure the Tyrell's did anything in particular to "set up" Tyrion. It seems clear that, thanks to Littlefinger and Sansa's information about Joffrey, the Queen of Thorns made the decision to remove him from the picture. Joffrey's fate was sealed the moment he married Margery, but the Tyrells didn't do much to make it appear that Tyrion was the killer. Yes, they could have tried to kill Joffrey at a time where Tyrion was nowhere near him, but a chance as opportune as the wedding feast would not have been easy to pass up. Besides, with Cersei's obsession with the valonqar and general craziness, I think she would have blamed Tyrion for the murder even if he had been on the other side of Westeros at the time.

If anyone can be blamed for framing Tyrion, its Littlefinger. The Kettlebacks, presumably at his direction, hired the jousting dwarfs to let the whole crowd see a reason for Tyrion to be furious with Joffrey. The Tyrells were certainly comfortable with collateral damage and I assume they were ecstatic when Tyrion quickly soaked up all the blame, but from my perspective they didn't really set him up.

[Ser Lepus]

But why using the hairnet, then? Its only possible use would be to have Sansa (and Tyrion through her) framed...

So there are only two options:

1.-The poison didn´t come from the hairnet, and Littlefinger is lying, trying to make Sansa feel more involved in the murder and thus more scared of being caught by Cersei and thus more dependant on Littlefinger...

2.-The poison did come from the hairnet, and the Tyrells were planning on framing Sansa and Tyrion, and Littlefinger pretended to agree with them, but changed the plan on his own initiative and took Sansa away against Olenna´s wishes...

Anyways, Littlefinger lies.