Unpopular Opinions, Because We Can Never Get Enough

[mediocre cheese]

You think Garlan is hardly better than Littlefinger because he murdered a known sadist who who would have hurt his sister?\

Garlan's character skyrocketed in my eyes when I realized he had the balls to pull this off.

This is an unpopular opinion, but I disagree with this. If the king is a known sadist, the solution would be to not marry him, rather than kill him, frame someone else and then marry his more pliant brother. The lannister offer was to marry margary, and give mace x castles and political office in exchange for tyrell support for the crown. The tyrells could have said "we will support you if you give us those castles and political offices, but we don't need the marriage aspect."

They knew full well that poisoning joffrey was going to result in someone else dying. Regicide is going to be investigated and someone is going to be blamed. Even if Joffrey is a sadistic shithead, killing him will cause innocent people to die (as tyrion nearly did). If Garlan had real balls he would have told his dad to stop being an idiot and simply cancel the wedding (thus protecting his sister), rather than murdering joffrey and framing innocent people.

[Alexia]

Innocent in the sense that he had nothing to do with Joffrey's murder, as much as he may have wanted to. I don't think Tyrion's a good guy either.

I just don't think a guy named X the Gallant should be murdering people and then setting up other people to take the fall. Just let Marg or Olenna do it please -.-. We need a few "true" knights in this series!

Fair enough, I can agree with that. Framing people for crimes they haven't committed isn't one bit gallant. But alas, I am quite certain after a careful read of that chapter that Garlan is the only Tyrell in a position to poison the wine -- unless it was his wife, in which case he knew anyway given how he buttered up Tyrion.

[Alexia]

But why using the hairnet, then? Its only possible use would be to have Sansa (and Tyrion through her) framed...

So there are only two options:

1.-The poison didn´t come from the hairnet, and Littlefinger is lying, trying to make Sansa feel more involved in the murder and thus more scared of being caught by Cersei and thus more dependant on Littlefinger...

2.-The poison did come from the hairnet, and the Tyrells were planning on framing Sansa and Tyrion, and Littlefinger pretended to agree with them, but changed the plan on his own initiative and took Sansa away against Olenna´s wishes...

Anyways, Littlefinger lies.

My theory is that Littlefinger insisted on the poison hairnet, because he wanted to implicate Sansa and make her feel guilty for Joffrey's death, thus making it impossible to flee him. That's the same reason he waited until the wedding to take her, when she could easily have been caught in the aftermath. And he pulls something similar to make her feel like Lysa's death is her fault.

I tend to think that the Tyrells were less behind the idea of implicating Sansa because she was too valuable, and thus were unknowingly doublecrossing LF when they tried to arrange the marriage with Willas (which LF promptly ruined, doublecrossing them in turn and ensuring Sansa would flee after she was forced to marry Tyrion) but that they would feel at worst a twinge of conscience if she was sent to die for their crimes. And once she married Tyrion, and before they found out she was still virgin, I think Olenna would have cheerfully seen her dead just to get even with Tywin for taking her from them in the insulting manner he did.

[Ser Lepus]

My theory is that Littlefinger insisted on the poison hairnet, because he wanted to implicate Sansa and make her feel guilty for Joffrey's death, thus making it impossible to flee him. That's the same reason he waited until the wedding to take her, when she could easily have been caught in the aftermath. And he pulls something similar to make her feel like Lysa's death is her fault.

I tend to think that the Tyrells were less behind the idea of implicating Sansa because she was too valuable, and thus were unknowingly doublecrossing LF when they tried to arrange the marriage with Willas (which LF promptly ruined, doublecrossing them in turn and ensuring Sansa would flee after she was forced to marry Tyrion) but that they would feel at worst a twinge of conscience if she was sent to die for their crimes. And once she married Tyrion, and before they found out she was still virgin, I think Olenna would have cheerfully seen her dead just to get even with Tywin for taking her from them in the insulting manner he did.

But, if it´s all an idea of Littlefinger to make Sansa feel she is an accomplice to the murder, there is no need to really use a poison-carrying hairnet; telling she was the one carrying the poison would be more than enough.

To really use the hairnet would make sense only if you were planning for her to get caught and framed, and we know that wasn´t Littlefinger´s plan.

[Catastrophe]

All this speculation makes me hope for a Tyrell POV chapter in one of the later books, so we can finally know what was really going on. So far all we know is what we've heard from Littlefinger, and I trust him about as far as I can throw him Gregor Clegane in full plate armor.

[Alexia]

But, if it´s all an idea of Littlefinger to make Sansa feel she is an accomplice to the murder, there is no need to really use a poison-carrying hairnet; telling she was the one carrying the poison would be more than enough.

To really use the hairnet would make sense only if you were planning for her to get caught and framed, and we know that wasn´t Littlefinger´s plan.

Except that Lady Olenna had to pry a stone loose, and she wasn't going to do that unless she believes that it is really poison. I think that the Tyrells had to believe that Sansa was one of their fall guys, and Sansa had to believe that she was guilty. And to accomplish all of that, LF had to risk that she might be caught and killed -- just like he coldbloodedly handed her over for forced marriage and rape so that he would be able to get his hands on her.

He's a horrible, horrible person who doesn't actually care about Sansa as a person and who isn't going to feel much more than a twinge of regret if Sansa dies because his plots backfire. He did a cost/benefit analysis and decided that preventing Sansa from fleeing him later was worth the risk of her death now.

[Candor]

But, if it´s all an idea of Littlefinger to make Sansa feel she is an accomplice to the murder, there is no need to really use a poison-carrying hairnet; telling she was the one carrying the poison would be more than enough.

To really use the hairnet would make sense only if you were planning for her to get caught and framed, and we know that wasn´t Littlefinger´s plan.

Or is it part of his plan? In a odd way it would keep Sansa from being able to go anywhere because she'd be wanted for the murder, she has the sense of guilt, etc

[Ser Lepus]

Mmmm....so the original plan cooked by Olenna and Littlefinger was to frame Tyrion and Sansa, who would get caught with the poison on her head, and used as a scapegoat, but Littlefinger changed the plan on his own initiative and took Sansa away...

There is still a little flaw in that hypothetical plan: Sansa would remember that Olenna touched the gem in her hairnet, and could accuse her; even if she had no proof, the Tyrell reputation wouldn´t escape fully unscathed...it would have been much more efficient if they had given Sansa the poison-carrying hairnet AND Olenna had carried a poisoned gem in his own sleeve to drop in the goblet, without touching Sansa´s head; that way not even Sansa could ever suspect who was behind it all....

[Alexia]

Who would believe Sansa, the daughter of a traitor who had most excellent cause to hate and murder Joffrey, over Olenna Tyrell who had no cause to hate OR murder Joffrey? It would look like she was accusing at random to take the focus off herself. Poisoning a king is not risk free, but the Tyrells actually managed to do a genius job of getting away with it unscathed. And I doubt that they'll ever face any repercussions for what they did.

I think the idea is that there were two potential scapegoats. Tyrion, who Garlan was assigned to butter up and flatter. Sansa, who Margaery was assigned to do the same for. Tyrion was the fall guy they wanted, Sansa was backup. She wasn't originally supposed to be married to Tyrion, so she shouldn't have been accused until after she was found missing (from LF's perspective); when the marriage to Tyrion went through, things changed and her flag was nailed to his mast and sank alongside him. However, until that happened the Tyrells saw her only as a secondary scapegoat -- if something went very wrong (like Tyrion didn't attend the feast for some reason).

The Tyrells changed the plan on their own initiative at first to marry her to Willas, and were going to try to protect her from the fallout of their plan. But if things had gone very wrong, one of them would have "noticed" the missing stone in her hairnet and accused her.

[The King in the South]

You know. Alternatively we forumgoers and Sansa are all just being paranoid and what really happened is one of her amethysts fell out when she was dancing and Joffrey was actually poisoned by Jaqen H'hgar who was posing as a wine glass.

Could happen

[Ladywhiskers]

I don´t buy the hairnet tale...why would Olenna Tyrell, or any other guest to the wedding, for that matter, need Sansa to carry the poison? why not carrying it themselves? I´m fairly sure none of them were searched at the door, and using the hairnet only increases the chances of being seen taking one of the fake amethysts (I think pulling a gem from somebody else head is more conspicuous than taking it from your own sleeve).

The only plausible explanation for the hairnet would be that somebody wanted Sansa to get caught and framed, but that would fit maybe Olenna or even Oberyn, but not Littlefinger, who was the one pulling Dontos´ strings.

It absolute does fit LF! Why else would Sansa flee right into his possession, if she weren't suspected of the murder?

The hairnet plan is a great way for LF to have a number of people under his thumb who otherwise would be going about their business ignoring him.

[Alexia]

What I want to know is if LF or Varys is currently in possession of Tyrek Lannister...

[salt]

Mmmm....so the original plan cooked by Olenna and Littlefinger was to frame Tyrion and Sansa, who would get caught with the poison on her head, and used as a scapegoat

I don't think this is true at all. I still don't see any evidence that the Tyrells deliberately framed Sansa, or even Tyrion for that matter. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but I didn't think Cersei or the accusers even noticed the hairnet. Sansa wasn't implicated by her hairnet. She was implicated because she was Tyrion's wife and the daughter of a traitor, and Cersei assumed she was involved.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think this is true at all. I still don't see any evidence that the Tyrells deliberately framed Sansa, or even Tyrion for that matter. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but I didn't think Cersei or the accusers even noticed the hairnet. Sansa wasn't implicated by her hairnet. She was implicated because she was Tyrion's wife and the daughter of a traitor, and Cersei assumed she was involved.

You're correct that it was Sansa's marriage (ironically, forced by them) that made the Lannisters suspect her guilt, not the hairnet, which never really entered anyone's mind. I do however think that the Tyrells knew exactly what they were doing when it came to framing Tyrion — makes you wonder who actually planned the wedding and made use of dwarf performers. I'm not sure the Tyrells meant to frame Sansa; if she hadn't fled, she might not even have been implicated at all. Littlefinger just exploited the suspicion over Sansa's involvement (exacerbated by her fleeing the scene and the castle) to spirit her away and keep her in what is, really, a very vulnerable position.

[salt]

You're correct that it was Sansa's marriage (ironically, forced by them) that made the Lannisters suspect her guilt, not the hairnet, which never really entered anyone's mind. I do however think that the Tyrells knew exactly what they were doing when it came to framing Tyrion — makes you wonder who actually planned the wedding and made use of dwarf performers. I'm not sure the Tyrells meant to frame Sansa; if she hadn't fled, she might not even have been implicated at all. Littlefinger just exploited the suspicion over Sansa's involvement (exacerbated by her fleeing the scene and the castle) to spirit her away and keep her in what is, really, a very vulnerable position.

In ADWD Penny reveals that she and her brother (the jousting dwarfs) were hired by a Kettleblack, which means they were hired by Littlefinger. We know Littlefinger has wanted Sansa for some time, and even tried to offer himself as a suitable husband when, before Eddard's beheading but after he was declared a traitor, Cersei was searching for a new betrothement for Sansa. Littlefinger is a master of manipulation and predicting peoples intentions, and being close to her on the Small Council it would have been easy for him to predict who she would blame when harm came to Joffrey.

So yes, the Tyrells implicated Sansa and Tyrion- indirectly. Littlefinger used the Tyrells to frame Tyrion- and by extension, his traitor-blooded wife Sansa- so that he could take control of Sansa.

I'm not so sure that the Tyrells realised they were doing this. Until we get more information I dont see any reason to suspect that the Tyrells purposely framed them or knew the full extent of the role they were playing in Littlefinger's schemes. Littlefinger just isn't the type to give someone more information than he absolutely needs to. If the Tyrells were conconspiring with Littlefinger to frame Tyrion, Littlefinger would not have used the strategy he did- publically praising the handsome and honorable King Joffrey to the Tyrells during the day, while at night his gaudrsman quietly spread stories of Joff's true nature around Highgarden, knowing they would reach the right ears.

Maybe I could be convinced that Olenna knew they were going to frame Tyrion and Sansa, or at least suspected it, but not the whole Tyrell family. It just doesn't make sense for Littlefinger to spread details of his plan to anyone he didn't need to. Dontos knew his plan, and look at what Littlefinger did about that.

To really use the hairnet would make sense only if you were planning for her to get caught and framed, and we know that wasn´t Littlefinger´s plan.

Wait, how do we know this? I think that was ABSOLUTELY Littlefinger's plan. He wanted a way to take Sansa away from the city and put her in a situation where she was utterly desperate and had only him to turn to, a wanted criminal in Westeros 100 percent dependent on him.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In ADWD Penny reveals that she and her brother (the jousting dwarfs) were hired by a Kettleblack, which means they were hired by Littlefinger.

Right, I forgot about that. In that case, it looks like Littlefinger played everyone, although I think that the Tyrells had to know that Tyrion would take the blame (I mean, someone had to, yes?). Littlefinger getting Sansa away, though, was him pulling one over on them.

[Silmarien]

Couldn't Garlan the Gallant have just said nice things to Tyrion because he's, um, a nice person? Like he was nice to Sansa at her forced wedding? Without ever suspecting that Joffrey was about to be poisoned? Possible, right?

[Sun]

Unpopular opinion:

As series arcs go, I would much rather have had Dany die in that funeral pyre. Seen her dragons go to Jorah Mormont, who then promptly offers to sell them to the highest bidder in Westeros. That way, instead of the Essos swamp of drudgery, we would have gotten a scintillating Westeros based struggle over the dragons taking the place of all those Dany chapters since the end of AGOT.

:leaving:

[mor2]

following her aDwD chapters your opinion is shared by many, on the other hand without a POV in essos, we would be missing much of this world and the background that led to the current events.

[Tini]

Couldn't Garlan the Gallant have just said nice things to Tyrion because he's, um, a nice person? Like he was nice to Sansa at her forced wedding? Without ever suspecting that Joffrey was about to be poisoned? Possible, right?

Of course that's possible. Olenna seemed to be the Tyrell most capable of the intrigues and subterfuge involved in the game of thrones, and it seemed that her son / grandsons were not aware of it. That is only possible if the Queen of Thorns was working behind their backs. She only trusted Margaery who is her heir in spirit, in addition to not being male. The Queen of Thorns doesn't hold a high opinion of men.