Who are the real Villains?

[Catastrophe]

We already have a thread on the series' true heroes, so what about their opposite numbers? Which characters do you truly consider to be villainous? Who do you consider truly evil, or destructive, or simply selfish? They don't all have to be complete monsters: Manipulative schemers, amoral opportunists, and even well-intentioned fanatics can be just as bad as the serial killers and marauding rapists, if not worse. They can even have some positive traits; after all, the best villains are the ones who could've been heroes.

Here are (just a few of) the characters I consider to be the real villains of the series:

Aerys Targaryen- The Mad King himself, Aerys' stupid and excessively cruel actions directly led to Robert's Rebellion, and indirectly led to almost all of the conflicts we see in Westeros and beyond. There were bad kings before him, but none so horrible that the whole realm rose up against them for their atrocities. His mental illness might excuse some of his paranoia, but it doesn't justify his arrogance, his pettiness, or his sheer sadism. Aerys frequently raped and beat his own wife, had countless innocent people tortured and killed throughout his reign, and to top it all off he was planning to turn all of King's Landing into his funeral pyre in what would've been the largest mass murder in Westerosi history.

Tywin Lannister- Cold and calculating Tywin is probably the most ethical person on this list, but that's not saying much. He's an incredibly competent ruler and he's not entirely without a sense of justice or mercy, but he also uses intimidation, violence, and treachery to accomplish his goals. His vengenance against those who defy him is legendary; he's known for wiping out entire bloodlines and sending his "mad dogs" to rape and murder peasants as they please. He genuinely cares about the legacy of his Great House, but he doesn't give a damn about a single person in it other than himself: He treated one of his children with nothing but perpetual disdain, traumatizing him for life, and used the other two as political pawns without any thought for their well-being.

Littlefinger- The man who started the War of the Five Kings, Littlefinger's lies and schemes have plunged Westeros into chaos and resulted in tens of thousands of deaths, all so he can advance himself politically. As is typical for a sociopath, he's known for charming people and gaining their trust, only to discard them when they've outlasted their usefulness to him. Despite his long record of betraying people, he's somehow still persuasive enough for people to keep believing his lies.

Varys- Despite his seemingly harmless appearance and silly mannerisms, Varys may very well be the most dangerous man in the Seven Kingdoms. He told Ned that he works for the good of the realm, yet he's actively trying to destablize it. He told Illyrio he wants to restore the Targaryen dynasty, yet he was partially responsible for Aerys' downfall. He told Tyrion he's simply trying to survive, yet he clearly has his own long-term agenda. A true master of deceit, even the readers have no idea what Varys is truly up to.

Cersei Lannister- A shallow, self-centered, and self-destructive woman, Cersei has driven her kingdom into the ground during her short time as Queen Regent. Like a small child, she's unwilling to work with people she dislikes even when they share a common goal, and she'll actively sabotage them even if that means sabotaging herself as well. Similarly, she was willing to overlook even the worst of her beloved son Joffrey's crimes, even when his actions were putting his own life and authority at risk. Her increasing paranoia has also led her to start going after completely random people and ostracizing the few allies she had left.

Walder Frey- The mastermind behind the Red Wedding, old Walder is another cruel, tyrannical, and ridiciulously petty ruler, willing to murder people over any real or perceived slights against him. He claims to care about family above all else, yet he pits his children and grandchildren against one another in a vicious competition for survival and power. He's also the definition of a turncloak, helping his allies only when they're on top and then stabbing them in the back as soon as they get knocked down.

Roose Bolton- Roose is a monster for all the same reasons as Walder Frey, and on top of all that he's also an authoritarian elitist who treats his servants like slaves, flays the skin from his prisoners, and rapes peasant women in his spare time. His son Ramsay might be more of a sadist than he is, but Roose is the one who permits and even encourages Ramsay's excesses, using his psychopathic son like one of Tywin's mad dogs.

Euron Greyjoy- Euron is a pirate, reaver, and raider who's killed, raped, and plundered his way across most of the world. He frequently tormented his own brothers since they were children, he practices black magic, and he seems to revel in his own cruelty... It's no wonder that he's considered a terrible person, even by the standards of a murderous Cthulhu-worshipping Viking pirate culture.

Melisandre- A sorceress skilled in unholy shadow magic, Melisandre is responsible for almost all of Stannis' worst actions: She used her magic to help him murder his brother Renly, had his own loyal followers imprisoned and executed simply for not worshipping her demonic god, and would have convinced him to sacrifice his own teenaged nephew in a mystic ritual if not for Davos' intervention. She's also responsible for his policy of burning criminals and traitors at the stake, rather than beheading or hanging them as other lords would. Her concerns about the Others may be valid, but that doesn't justify her actions, especially since nothing she's done so far has contributed to stopping them.

I didn't really include any of the obvious choices like the Mountain or Ramsay Bolton, mostly because they're a little too obvious and too small-scale, but that's just me. Anyone else have any opinions on who the real villains of the series are?

[The King in the South]

Err, if the Others threat turns out to be like we think it is, then how is Melisandre a villian? You have to make the tough choices to deal with the tough situations. And she's the only one taking them seriously.

Im unsure on Varys and you give the exact reason for it. We don't know what he's really up to. He might seem evil, he might seem good, but we can't decide until he makes his big play.

Also, if you are going to include Tywin you need to include guys like Hoster Tully, Randall Tarly, etc

edit: Personally I don't see Cersei as evil, just insane, in that her emotions for her children have taking over her body as a whole. Same could be said for Lysa Arryn.

[Noimporta]

Err, if the Others threat turns out to be like we think it is, then how is Melisandre a villian? You have to make the tough choices to deal with the tough situations. And she's the only one taking them seriously.

Im unsure on Varys and you give the exact reason for it. We don't know what he's really up to. He might seem evil, he might seem good, but we can't decide until he makes his big play.

Depends on the weight you give to means and ends.

[The King in the South]

Depends on the weight you give to means and ends.

Considering a society like Westeroes, I can almost gurantee you they would say killing X people to save X times 10 or whatever is completely justifiable.

[tze]

Err, if the Others threat turns out to be like we think it is, then how is Melisandre a villian? You have to make the tough choices to deal with the tough situations. And she's the only one taking them seriously.

She believes they're a serious threat, but she's utterly convinced that she and she alone has the knowledge and skills to fight them, despite never having encountered an Other or a wight in her life. She causes heaps of unnecessary grief, hardship, and pain to pretty much everyone except the Others. Rather than doing anything constructive to hurt the Others, she spends all of her time trying to destroy the one religious/magical system that actually seems to have a history with, and probably some effect against, the Others. If Mel had been shown to actually be working against the Others, I probably wouldn't see her as a villain; but all she does is impede the efforts of those who have fought the wights/Others and who do seem to know what they're doing. If the Others knew what Mel's been doing at the Wall, they'd probably be ecstatic.

edit: Personally I don't see Cersei as evil, just insane, in that her emotions for her children have taking over her body as a whole.

To me, Cersei always seemed to "love" her children primarily for the power they give her, not for their own sakes. It's striking how obsessed she is with Tommen yet how rarely she thinks about Myrcella---count the number of times Cersei thinks about Myrcella in AFFC, and the paucity is striking. But one of the few times she does mention Myrcella is when she thinks to herself "She could not risk Tommen growing ill, not with Myrcella in the hands of the Dornishmen." Not that she just can't survive losing another child---that she can't lose this child while the next child, Cersei's only ticket to power, is out of her grasp. What, it would be better for Tommen to die if Myrcella was in King's Landing? Cersei loves power way more than she loves her children, that much has been made clear, and to me that screams "villain".

[DurararaFTW]

Littlefinger, the Boltons, Victarion & Euron Greyjoy, Walter Frey, the Others. All these people should definitely be dealt with by the end of this series.

[Long Night Survivor]

Roose Bolton and Ilyn Payne shoot up pretty high since they killed the only honorable men that weren't complete wastes. (IMHO)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You have people like the Boltons, many of the Freys, Cersei (yes I think she's evil and insane), Littlefinger and Euron Greyjoy, as well as the Others (if they are in fact evil). It's striking to me though that, as of now, there doesn't appear to be a human villain on a truly grand scale. Cersei, Littlefinger and their ilk are politically evil and obsessed with power and status. Ramsay Bolton is a garden-variety sociopath. None of them appear to be evil in the grand sense (like, when mankind's existence is at stake), which makes me wonder if another human villain will appear to take that role or if the real villains are just supernatural.

[The King in the South]

She believes they're a serious threat, but she's utterly convinced that she and she alone has the knowledge and skills to fight them, despite never having encountered an Other or a wight in her life. She causes heaps of unnecessary grief, hardship, and pain to pretty much everyone except the Others. Rather than doing anything constructive to hurt the Others, she spends all of her time trying to destroy the one religious/magical system that actually seems to have a history with, and probably some effect against, the Others. If Mel had been shown to actually be working against the Others, I probably wouldn't see her as a villain; but all she does is impede the efforts of those who have fought the wights/Others and who do seem to know what they're doing. If the Others knew what Mel's been doing at the Wall, they'd probably be ecstatic.

To me, Cersei always seemed to "love" her children primarily for the power they give her, not for their own sakes. It's striking how obsessed she is with Tommen yet how rarely she thinks about Myrcella---count the number of times Cersei thinks about Myrcella in AFFC, and the paucity is striking. But one of the few times she does mention Myrcella is when she thinks to herself "She could not risk Tommen growing ill, not with Myrcella in the hands of the Dornishmen." Not that she just can't survive losing another child---that she can't lose this child while the next child, Cersei's only ticket to power, is out of her grasp. What, it would be better for Tommen to die if Myrcella was in King's Landing? Cersei loves power way more than she loves her children, that much has been made clear, and to me that screams "villain".

Where does Mel undermine someone's efforts against the Others? I seem to recall her supporting or at least trying to support Jon. She's getting the castles manned, setting up a defense line, etc. I'm not exactly sure what you mean for that point, am I missing some key point?

As for Cersei, eh. Her POV chapters honestly really shot the character hard and contradicted a lot of earlier points. The Tommen-Myrcella thing is pretty much justified in that she just had one child murdered who was in Tommen's exact position, and the people who Cersei believe murdered him/helped murder him are still around. She was definetely extremely worried about Myrcella early on, (see ACOK, ASOS) but I think that after a few months she's come to think Myrcella is safe in Dorne. (Oh the irony)

[tze]

Where does Mel undermine someone's efforts against the Others? I seem to recall her supporting or at least trying to support Jon. She's getting the castles manned, setting up a defense line, etc. I'm not exactly sure what you mean for that point, am I missing some key point?

Mel isn't the one getting the castles manned, Jon is. And he's doing it despite Mel's actions (burning the weirwoods, for example), not because of them. Her "support" of Jon primarily consists of her trying, and failing, to impress him. Yet she never bothers to, say, take a walk north of the Wall and lay down some fire magic on the wights. She claims to have all of these powers that are so essential to the fight against the Others, yet she does everything but fight the Others.

So far Mel's obsession with King's blood has resulted in Jon sending away Maester Aemon, thus depriving the Wall of Aemon's invaluable counsel, and has led to an innocent baby being sent away from his aunt and father (and deprived Gilly of her only son). Mel's little mummer show with the burning of the weirwood branches/burning of "Mance" did nothing to strengthen the Wall (Jon only gained wildling support when he went himself to Molestown), but certainly convinced a bunch of wildlings not to seek refuge at the Wall, meaning there are now more potential wights for the Others than there should be north of the Wall. Mel's "support" of Jon doesn't get Jon any support from Selyse, her knights, or Jon's fellow Watchmen, but it probably did some damage to his reputation among his fellow Watchmen. She's convinced him that Arya is still in Westeros, and if he hadn't believed her, who knows if he would have tried to lead an army south and gotten stabbed by Marsh. One of the men with Marsh, and thus probably one of the assassins, is Alf of Runnymudd, who's a follower of R'hllor. Mel wants Jon to give up the Old Gods, and the Old Gods are the original gods of Westeros, and due to the connection between the Children and dragonglass and between dragonglass and the Others, there's a decent chance that the Old Gods' power is actually a potent tool against the Others. Hell, Mel isn't even the person who convinced Stannis to come to the Wall in the first place (Davos was).

There's a huge laundry list of things she's done to damage relations between the various factions at the Wall. At best her prophecies are useless, at worst they're actively misleading. She's spent a decent amount of her time attacking the homegrown magical forces of the North, yet she herself has shown zero anti-Others capabilities. Her presence at the Wall has produced no real benefit to the defenders at the Wall, but she's certainly done a lot of things to undermine their mission.

[Binadas Sengar]

Aerys and every coward that failed to act when he needed to be deposed. As far as the supernatural super villain we will have to wait and see if there is one.

[The King in the South]

Mel isn't the one getting the castles manned, Jon is. And he's doing it despite Mel's actions (burning the weirwoods, for example), not because of them. Her "support" of Jon primarily consists of her trying, and failing, to impress him. Yet she never bothers to, say, take a walk north of the Wall and lay down some fire magic on the wights. She claims to have all of these powers that are so essential to the fight against the Others, yet she does everything but fight the Others.

So far Mel's obsession with King's blood has resulted in Jon sending away Maester Aemon, thus depriving the Wall of Aemon's invaluable counsel, and has led to an innocent baby being sent away from his aunt and father (and deprived Gilly of her only son). Mel's little mummer show with the burning of the weirwood branches/burning of "Mance" did nothing to strengthen the Wall (Jon only gained wildling support when he went himself to Molestown), but certainly convinced a bunch of wildlings not to seek refuge at the Wall, meaning there are now more potential wights for the Others than there should be north of the Wall. Mel's "support" of Jon doesn't get Jon any support from Selyse, her knights, or Jon's fellow Watchmen, but it probably did some damage to his reputation among his fellow Watchmen. She's convinced him that Arya is still in Westeros, and if he hadn't believed her, who knows if he would have tried to lead an army south and gotten stabbed by Marsh. One of the men with Marsh, and thus probably one of the assassins, is Alf of Runnymudd, who's a follower of R'hllor. Mel wants Jon to give up the Old Gods, and the Old Gods are the original gods of Westeros, and due to the connection between the Children and dragonglass and between dragonglass and the Others, there's a decent chance that the Old Gods' power is actually a potent tool against the Others. Hell, Mel isn't even the person who convinced Stannis to come to the Wall in the first place (Davos was).

There's a huge laundry list of things she's done to damage relations between the various factions at the Wall. At best her prophecies are useless, at worst they're actively misleading. She's spent a decent amount of her time attacking the homegrown magical forces of the North, yet she herself has shown zero anti-Others capabilities. Her presence at the Wall has produced no real benefit to the defenders at the Wall, but she's certainly done a lot of things to undermine their mission.

Wait, you think she can just walk north of the wall and start killing Others? Umm.... She's proven she has magical capabilities, but no where does the book or does she hint that she can single handedly wipe out the Others. Otherwise she would have done it...

I'm pretty sure she also explained to Jon how the wights/Others are different and how to defeat them, reinforcing some points that Sam found, but never really exactly deciphered.

Like obviously she's not the best of the bunch, but I don't see how she's anymore a villian than half the guys in the series. At least she believes she is doing right, where as most other guys, including pretty much 90% of the lords/NW for that matter just act for themselves or their families.

And if your going to make speculations that she convinced one of her men to kill Jon....well there are a lot of theories out there that the COTF are somehow in league with the Others. Perhaps destroying weirwoods is actually weakening the Others?... Can't really go on theory at the moment

[Ramsay Gimp]

I was hoping that AFFC and ADWD would feature the Boltons and the Ironborn in a bloody war for the North, but it seems that GRRM had different plans for the Greyjoys. Hopefully Euron goes on to become a worthwhile villain - so far I can't say

[seanbean4lyfe]

Is it horrible that I love all these characters (except Frey and Aerys)?

Nah.

And IMO Roose doesn't really encourage Ramsay, he just let's him be. I feel he is indifferent to him TBH

[Silmarien]

We already have a thread on the series' true heroes, so what about their opposite numbers? Which characters do you truly consider to be villainous? Who do you consider truly evil, or destructive, or simply selfish? They don't all have to be complete monsters: Manipulative schemers, amoral opportunists, and even well-intentioned fanatics can be just as bad as the serial killers and marauding rapists, if not worse. They can even have some positive traits; after all, the best villains are the ones who could've been heroes.

Here are (just a few of) the characters I consider to be the real villains of the series:

Aerys Targaryen- The Mad King himself, Aerys' stupid and excessively cruel actions directly led to Robert's Rebellion, and indirectly led to almost all of the conflicts we see in Westeros and beyond. There were bad kings before him, but none so horrible that the whole realm rose up against them for their atrocities. His mental illness might excuse some of his paranoia, but it doesn't justify his arrogance, his pettiness, or his sheer sadism. Aerys frequently raped and beat his own wife, had countless innocent people tortured and killed throughout his reign, and to top it all off he was planning to turn all of King's Landing into his funeral pyre in what would've been the largest mass murder in Westerosi history.

Tywin Lannister- Cold and calculating Tywin is probably the most ethical person on this list, but that's not saying much. He's an incredibly competent ruler and he's not entirely without a sense of justice or mercy, but he also uses intimidation, violence, and treachery to accomplish his goals. His vengenance against those who defy him is legendary; he's known for wiping out entire bloodlines and sending his "mad dogs" to rape and murder peasants as they please. He genuinely cares about the legacy of his Great House, but he doesn't give a damn about a single person in it other than himself: He treated one of his children with nothing but perpetual disdain, traumatizing him for life, and used the other two as political pawns without any thought for their well-being.

Littlefinger- The man who started the War of the Five Kings, Littlefinger's lies and schemes have plunged Westeros into chaos and resulted in tens of thousands of deaths, all so he can advance himself politically. As is typical for a sociopath, he's known for charming people and gaining their trust, only to discard them when they've outlasted their usefulness to him. Despite his long record of betraying people, he's somehow still persuasive enough for people to keep believing his lies.

Varys- Despite his seemingly harmless appearance and silly mannerisms, Varys may very well be the most dangerous man in the Seven Kingdoms. He told Ned that he works for the good of the realm, yet he's actively trying to destablize it. He told Illyrio he wants to restore the Targaryen dynasty, yet he was partially responsible for Aerys' downfall. He told Tyrion he's simply trying to survive, yet he clearly has his own long-term agenda. A true master of deceit, even the readers have no idea what Varys is truly up to.

Cersei Lannister- A shallow, self-centered, and self-destructive woman, Cersei has driven her kingdom into the ground during her short time as Queen Regent. Like a small child, she's unwilling to work with people she dislikes even when they share a common goal, and she'll actively sabotage them even if that means sabotaging herself as well. Similarly, she was willing to overlook even the worst of her beloved son Joffrey's crimes, even when his actions were putting his own life and authority at risk. Her increasing paranoia has also led her to start going after completely random people and ostracizing the few allies she had left.

Walder Frey- The mastermind behind the Red Wedding, old Walder is another cruel, tyrannical, and ridiciulously petty ruler, willing to murder people over any real or perceived slights against him. He claims to care about family above all else, yet he pits his children and grandchildren against one another in a vicious competition for survival and power. He's also the definition of a turncloak, helping his allies only when they're on top and then stabbing them in the back as soon as they get knocked down.

Roose Bolton- Roose is a monster for all the same reasons as Walder Frey, and on top of all that he's also an authoritarian elitist who treats his servants like slaves, flays the skin from his prisoners, and rapes peasant women in his spare time. His son Ramsay might be more of a sadist than he is, but Roose is the one who permits and even encourages Ramsay's excesses, using his psychopathic son like one of Tywin's mad dogs.

Euron Greyjoy- Euron is a pirate, reaver, and raider who's killed, raped, and plundered his way across most of the world. He frequently tormented his own brothers since they were children, he practices black magic, and he seems to revel in his own cruelty... It's no wonder that he's considered a terrible person, even by the standards of a murderous Cthulhu-worshipping Viking pirate culture.

Melisandre- A sorceress skilled in unholy shadow magic, Melisandre is responsible for almost all of Stannis' worst actions: She used her magic to help him murder his brother Renly, had his own loyal followers imprisoned and executed simply for not worshipping her demonic god, and would have convinced him to sacrifice his own teenaged nephew in a mystic ritual if not for Davos' intervention. She's also responsible for his policy of burning criminals and traitors at the stake, rather than beheading or hanging them as other lords would. Her concerns about the Others may be valid, but that doesn't justify her actions, especially since nothing she's done so far has contributed to stopping them.

I didn't really include any of the obvious choices like the Mountain or Ramsay Bolton, mostly because they're a little too obvious and too small-scale, but that's just me. Anyone else have any opinions on who the real villains of the series are?

Wow, great post!

I disagree about Melisandre, btw, because she actually thinks she is doing what is right. And she did spare Davos (didn't have him burned, at least, which I suppose isn't much praise). I just don't think her evil is on the scale of the others on the list, because she thinks she is saving the world from the Others.

BTW - Edric Storm was EIGHT years old (pretty sure). Definitely not a teenager. Which makes Mel worse, I know, but Tywin had his dogs dash a 2 year old's head against the wall, rape his mom, and stab his sister 20 times...so, yeah. And Edric is fine (thanks to Davos!!)

Err, if the Others threat turns out to be like we think it is, then how is Melisandre a villian? You have to make the tough choices to deal with the tough situations. And she's the only one taking them seriously.

Im unsure on Varys and you give the exact reason for it. We don't know what he's really up to. He might seem evil, he might seem good, but we can't decide until he makes his big play.

Also, if you are going to include Tywin you need to include guys like Hoster Tully, Randall Tarly, etc

edit: Personally I don't see Cersei as evil, just insane, in that her emotions for her children have taking over her body as a whole. Same could be said for Lysa Arryn.

Why Hoster Tully? For forcing Lysa to marry a man who was old enough to be her grandfather? Eh....it's awful, but he wasn't EVIL.

Randyll Tarly is worse than Tywin, IMHO, for what he did to Sam, and how he treated Brienne.

[Stannis the Great]

BTW - Edric Storm was EIGHT years old (pretty sure). Definitely not a teenager. Which makes Mel worse, I know, but Tywin had his dogs dash a 2 year old's head against the wall, rape his mom, and stab his sister 20 times...so, yeah. And Edric is fine (thanks to Davos!!)

He's listed as 12 years old in the AFFC Appendix.

[Silmarien]

She believes they're a serious threat, but she's utterly convinced that she and she alone has the knowledge and skills to fight them, despite never having encountered an Other or a wight in her life. She causes heaps of unnecessary grief, hardship, and pain to pretty much everyone except the Others. Rather than doing anything constructive to hurt the Others, she spends all of her time trying to destroy the one religious/magical system that actually seems to have a history with, and probably some effect against, the Others. If Mel had been shown to actually be working against the Others, I probably wouldn't see her as a villain; but all she does is impede the efforts of those who have fought the wights/Others and who do seem to know what they're doing. If the Others knew what Mel's been doing at the Wall, they'd probably be ecstatic.

To me, Cersei always seemed to "love" her children primarily for the power they give her, not for their own sakes. It's striking how obsessed she is with Tommen yet how rarely she thinks about Myrcella---count the number of times Cersei thinks about Myrcella in AFFC, and the paucity is striking. But one of the few times she does mention Myrcella is when she thinks to herself "She could not risk Tommen growing ill, not with Myrcella in the hands of the Dornishmen." Not that she just can't survive losing another child---that she can't lose this child while the next child, Cersei's only ticket to power, is out of her grasp. What, it would be better for Tommen to die if Myrcella was in King's Landing? Cersei loves power way more than she loves her children, that much has been made clear, and to me that screams "villain".

Wait, how has Mel impeded anyone in fighting the Others? All she has done is burn a lot of people trying to wake dragons from stone (which is terrible, of course). She did not protest when Davos smuggled Edric Storm away, and went with Stannis to aid the NW at the Wall, where the Others were attacking.

How did she impede Jon when he was LC?

ETA: Sorry, missed your post above answering this question.

I really don't think it's Mel's fault she hasn't been out there destroying Wights. You think one Fire Mage (whatev) alone can destroy all the Others? Doubtful. And she repeatedly warned Jon about "daggers in the dark" and to keep Ghost close by, it's not her fault he didn't listen to her. She was right on target with that vision.

I totally agree with you about Cersei. She's really abusive to Tommen, always berating the poor kid about not being like Joffrey (who was a sociopath and abused Tommen). I wish Jaime had more time and influence on the kid, it'd be good for him.

I don't even particularly like Jaime, but I admired him when he said "Cersei, enough" outside the sept when she was yelling at poor Tommen for retching bc Tywin was decomposing.

[Silmarien]

He's listed as 12 years old in the AFFC Appendix.

Okay, sorry. I stand corrected. I wouldn't consider 12 a teenager, but close enough. My bad! :blushing:

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I also don't really see Mel as a villain, yet. I think she is hideously misguided, but honest enough in her beliefs and intentions. She truly believes she is doing what must be done to save the world from utter destruction. Foolish and frighteningly myopic, yes. But a bad guy, no.

[Greyjoy the Reaver]

I'm not sure I see any characters as true villians. When and if the Others come, some or all of the characters are going to have to work together to defeat them. I just see them as people who all have faults some just bigger then others. I don't really see the Greyjoy's as villans at all. They are just products of the world they live in and they aren't even the only pirates in the world. Salador Saan for instance is also a pirate. Davos was a smuggler. It's really all in what you think is villanous I guess.

I also don't really see Tywin Lannister as a villan. He was a brilliant ruler and general. He was also generally slighted by the kings that constantly helped. Sure he had the Targaryan children killed. But I really put that more on Robert. Furthermore how come Robert Baratheon isn't on this list.

Robert Baratheon beggared the realm with foolish spending with out a care. He calls it counting coppers. Although Joffrey is not Roberts real son, he still raised him and Joffrey is a monster. Robert basically wants to kill off the entire Targaryan House. He sends assassins after 13 year old Danerays. Maybe Tywin ordered the Targaryan children killed. But Robert would have done it to. Tywin just did what he had to do. Instead of ruling the realm Robert drinks constantly and whores and fathers bastards that he only acknowledges if he must. For instance Edric Storm who was born of a Florent I believe that he knocks up in Stannis's wedding bed. He basically does what he wants when he wants it. I don't really see him as being that big of a step up from the mad king.

I don't like Walder Frey. But I have to admit that Robb Stark really slighted House Frey when he married Jeyne Westerling. I mean what a stupid move. Walder was definitley justified in switching sides over something like this.

I don't really consider Varys or Littlefinger to be villans at all. Just great strategists with their own agenda's. I can't wait to see what either of them has planned.

Roose is a Turncloak as well as Ramsey and they are both villans. They had no good reason to turn on the Starks except for a power grab.

Cersei may very well be a villan also. How ever I think she believe that she is doing the best thing she can for House Lannister. I find her highly entertaining.