Does John Connington know about Rheagar and Lyanna?

[ARYa_Nym]

ummm, again. i do not think jon is the PWWP! i just meant that being a bastard in this contempory society does not have any bearing on a prophecy that was made thousands of years previously. he isnt the PWWP because, in my opinion, dani is the dragon that was promised!

Besides, by your argument there would have been Stark princes when the prophecy was made, not that its relevent now.

Stark princes aren't of Aerys and Rhaella's line.

The prophecy was updated quite recently:

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other? Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line." "A woods witch?" Dany was astonished. "She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest. " "What became of her?" "Summerhal."

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

Stark princes aren't of Aerys and Rhaella's line.

The prophecy was updated quite recently:

i know, the end of my previous post said ' not that its relevent'. Jon isnt the pwwp that was promised for the same reason rhaeger and viserys werent, he doesnt fit the specification, born amidst storm, salt and smoke etc... NOT because he is a bastard raised by Starks!!

[ARYa_Nym]

i know, the end of my previous post said ' not that its relevent'. Jon isnt the pwwp that was promised for the same reason rhaeger and viserys werent, he doesnt fit the specification, born amidst storm, salt and smoke etc... NOT because he is a bastard raised by Starks!!

Rhaegar thought that he was the PWWP because he was born amidst smoke and salt i.e. Summerhall. He of course was born a prince and is of Aerys and Rhaella's line. He fit the criteria. He was wrong though.

Viserys didn't fit the criteria to my knowledge besides being a prince and having the right lineage. Rhaegar became a warrior. I don't think Viserys had any sword training.

Jon wouldn't fit one of the main components of it by being a bastard.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

Rhaegar thought that he was the PWWP because he was born amidst smoke and salt i.e. Summerhall. He of course was born a prince and is of Aerys and Rhaella's line. He fit the criteria. He was wrong though.

Viserys didn't fit the criteria to my knowledge besides being a prince.

Jon wouldn't fit one of the main components of it by being a bastard.

no offense but i think you are missing my point. Jon is most probably rhaegars illegitimate bastard son, you have said previously that prince is interchangable with dragon. IF jon is rhaegars son then he has targ blood, and could hense be a dragon. In the same way that he can be a warg due to his stark blood. By your logic if jon cannot be a dragon then he also cannot be a warg but we know that he is a warg!!! i am sure the prophecy relates to aerys and rhaellas blood line, not specifically the name Targaryen, after all a second name is just a word!!!

Just to clarify - I DO NOT THINK JON IS A DRAGON OR A PRINCE OR A PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED. But not because he is a bastard.

by the way, i always assumed that born amidst salt referred to the sea, hence dani being born on the island of dragonstone surrounded by salt water. Rhaegar was born at summerhall, which i thought was inland, so wheres the salt?

[ARYa_Nym]

no offense but i think you are missing my point. Jon is most probably rhaegars illegitimate bastard son, you have said previously that prince is interchangable with dragon. IF jon is rhaegars son then he has targ blood, and could hense be a dragon. In the same way that he can be a warg due to his stark blood. By your logic if jon cannot be a dragon then he also cannot be a warg but we know that he is a warg!!! i am sure the prophecy relates to aerys and rhaellas blood line, not specifically the name Targaryen, after all a second name is just a word!!!

Just to clarify - I DO NOT THINK JON IS A DRAGON OR A PRINCE OR A PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED. But not because he is a bastard.

The quote I posted above which was the reasoning for Aerys and Rhaella's forced marriage stated that a promised prince would be born from their line. Aemon only later realized that it could be a princess as well since dragons have no gender. This eliminates bastards and anyone who isn't from the right bloodline.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

The quote I posted above which was the reasoning for Aerys and Rhaella's forced marriage stated that a promised prince would be born from their line. Aemon only later realized that it could be a princess as well since dragons have no gender. This eliminates bastards and anyone who isn't from the right bloodline.

you have already said that the words dragon and prince are interchangable, in theory jon could still be a dragon in the same way he can be a warg, he has the blood even if he hasnt got the name. besides, were it not for the death of rhaegar on the trident then jon probably would have been a targaryen and hence a prince. the fact is the aemon is referring to dani as a princess and the fact that she can be the pwwp, but where does it say that a dragon must have the name targaryen. ok hes not a prince, but he could still have potentially been a dragon in theory, but he isnt.

[ARYa_Nym]

you have already said that the words dragon and prince are interchangable, in theory jon could still be a dragon in the same way he can be a warg, he has the blood even if he hasnt got the name. besides, were it not for the death of rhaegar on the trident then jon probably would have been a targaryen and hence a prince. the fact is the aemon is referring to dani as a princess and the fact that she can be the pwwp, but where does it say that a dragon must have the name targaryen. ok hes not a prince, but he could still have potentially been a dragon in theory, but he isnt.

So you agree with me?

He's not a prince so what I'm saying is how could he have been the PWWP? I'm not saying that you think that Jon is the one.

The name Targaryen is what would make Jon a prince. He is just a bastard by being Snow.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

i have never once said he is a prince, not once. i said he could be a dragon like he could be a warg because he has the blood.

it was you who said that the words prince and dragon are interchangeable and thus mean the same thing. IF those words are interchangeable then he could be the 'dragon that was promised'. and the fact his name is snow would make absolutely no difference.

by the logic of the book, anyone with stark blood can be a warg and thus anyone with targ blood can be a dragon. it doesnt matter if he has the name targ as he isnt a stark either.

besides it would only take the targaryen patriac (aegon or dani) to acknowledge him and he would be a prince.

[ARYa_Nym]

earlier i read that someone else had stated that if r+l=j is true then jon would need to be legitimised, but i dont really see why. in order for jon to be part of any prophecy i dont see any reason that jon would need to be a legit targ, i doubt that a 'supernatural' prophecy would care too much about the laws of men. the important thing would be jons blood because it is that that makes him a targ, not the word that follows his first name (words are wind;)).

The rhetoric for the PWWP prophecy and the AA are very similar. It would be a coincidence if they were different.

The fact that his name is Snow makes every difference. He is not a Targaryen and he is not a prince unless Rhaegar was married to his mother. Why would he then refer to himself as a dragon or think himself to be the dragon who was promised? As far as he knows that is not his house. His personal feelings don't matter anyway. The prophecy should be fulfilled by someone who fits the criteria.

& warging is completely different. It's the blood of the First Men and possibly a link to the Old Gods that would make him a warg. Bloodraven was of the same mix as Jon and is a greenseer.

[Brucolac]

It is pretty much confirmed by the text that Jon actually is legitimate if you believe he is a child of Rheagar and Lyanna. There is no other way to interpret the kingsguard staying to fight instead of leaving for dragonstone to serve Viscerys if they are not protecting the true heir at the Tower of Joy, so whether or not he is that baby, R&L had a living child and they were married.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

The rhetoric for the PWWP prophecy and the AA are very similar. It would be a coincidence if they were different.

The fact that his name is Snow makes every difference. He is not a Targaryen and he is not a prince unless Rhaegar was married to his mother. Why would he then refer to himself as a dragon or think himself to be the dragon who was promised? As far as he knows that is not his house. His personal feelings don't matter anyway. The prophecy should be fulfilled by someone who fits the criteria.

& warging is completely different. It's the blood of the First Men and possibly a link to the Old Gods that would make him a warg. Bloodraven was of the same mix as Jon and is a greenseer.

jon isnt a prince but he could have been a dragon, warging is not completely different i dont think. it is the blood of targs that make a dragon and jon may well have it. think of it like a genetic disease, just because the father does not acknowledge his son does not mean his son doesnt have that disease, in that way jon could still be a dragon. not every targ is a dragon (viserys for example) but every dragon is of targ blood. so if u look at the prophecy as the DRAGON that was promised then where is the requirement for the person to be a prince or named targaryen, AA clearly wasnt named targaryen but he was a promised prince.

i dont think jon is a dragon or even one of the heads of the dragon for that matter but that is because he doesnt have that little something that sets him apart from other targs, not because his birth certificate says snow. a name is a name.

i really dont think you have to be a targ to be a dragon, not in name at least, you just have to be of targ blood. the word prince could easily be something that just got incorporated into the prophecy.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't want to give off the impression that I don't think that Jon was born legitimate. I think he was born a king. But if he was a bastard he couldn't have been the PWWP.

On the other hand, I do think that Dany is the PWWP.

The only possibility I see him for AA is that the three heads of the dragon will fulfill the role of AA together. & the third not necessarily Targaryen head could possibliy be the Last Hero.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

It is pretty much confirmed by the text that Jon actually is legitimate if you believe he is a child of Rheagar and Lyanna. There is no other way to interpret the kingsguard staying to fight instead of leaving for dragonstone to serve Viscerys if they are not protecting the true heir at the Tower of Joy, so whether or not he is that baby, R&L had a living child and they were married.

a good point, but in my opinion he doesnt need to be legitimate to be a dragon. i am sure there was a blackfyre that was considered a dragon at some point, and after all blackfyres are pretty much targ bastards.

[ARYa_Nym]

jon isnt a prince but he could have been a dragon, warging is not completely different i dont think. it is the blood of targs that make a dragon and jon may well have it. think of it like a genetic disease, just because the father does not acknowledge his son does not mean his son doesnt have that disease, in that way jon could still be a dragon. not every targ is a dragon (viserys for example) but every dragon is of targ blood. so if u look at the prophecy as the DRAGON that was promised then where is the requirement for the person to be a prince or named targaryen, AA clearly wasnt named targaryen but he was a promised prince.

i dont think jon is a dragon or even one of the heads of the dragon for that matter but that is because he doesnt have that little something that sets him apart from other targs, not because his birth certificate says snow. a name is a name.

i really dont think you have to be a targ to be a dragon, not in name at least, you just have to be of targ blood. the word prince could easily be something that just got incorporated into the prophecy.

The requirement for this person to be a prince is the Ghost of High Heart saying that they will be one. The word dragon changes the possible gender of this person.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

I don't want to give off the impression that I don't think that Jon was born legitimate. I think he was born a king. But if he was a bastard he couldn't have been the PWWP.

On the other hand, I do think that Dany is the PWWP.

The only possibility I see him for AA is that the three heads of the dragon will fulfill the role of AA together. & the third not necessarily Targaryen head could possibliy be the Last Hero.

one idea that i had was that rhaegar had himself misinterpreted the three headed dragon prophecy. perhaps the three dragons heads actually refer to three dragons ie drogon, rhaegal and viserion, the fact that aegon the first had two sisters may have been coincidental. in which case dani, being the dragon or pwwp or aa already has the three heads she requires but doesnt yet realise it.

it stands to reason as at the time that rhaegar made the discovery there werent any dragons, so he logically assumed it meant three human targs were needed as opposed to three actual dragons. i know that rhaegar was bookish and learned but it would be easy to make this mistake and i just cant see any other living character being able to ride the dragons at least not in a way that fit the prophecy well

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

The requirement for this person to be a prince is the Ghost of High Heart saying that they will be one. The word dragon changes the possible gender of this person.

the prophecy doesnt state that the person had to be a prince his whole life, only that when it came down to business. at some point jon will learn his parentage and i suspect so to will dani or aegon or whoever the targ patriac is. by acknowlegding jon, which dani would certainly do given her esteem for her brother and yearning for family, jon would be a prince. but i seriously doubt the aegon is legit, i think he is a plan b from varys and co that was put into action when they felt that dani was getting nowhere with westeros. if that is so then jon wouldnt be a prince, he would be a king and would also not fit the criteria.

[ARYa_Nym]

I do think that dragonriders and the heads of the dragon aren't necessarily synonymous so we might see other riders that will help Dany get her dragons to Westeros and they can later meet up with the other two heads possibly in the North.

This third Targaryen might very well be -not- a Targaryen, to quote his exact words... "Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not necessarily BE a Targaryen..."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1261/

I think Rhaegar just couldn't get it right on who the prophecy applied to. He never expected a third child of his father to be the one to bring back the dragons

the prophecy doesnt state that the person had to be a prince his whole life, only that when it came down to business. at some point jon will learn his parentage and i suspect so to will dani or aegon or whoever the targ patriac is. by acknowlegding jon, which dani would certainly do given her esteem for her brother and yearning for family, jon would be a prince. but i seriously doubt the aegon is legit, i think he is a plan b from varys and co that was put into action when they felt that dani was getting nowhere with westeros. if that is so then jon wouldnt be a prince, he would be a king and would also not fit the criteria.

They don't which is why I said that Dany fulfilled most of it at her birth even though she is now a Queen. If Jon weren't legitimate already if he were to get legitimized it wouldn't be until way too late in the series. It really wouldn't be relevant to the war with the Others if AA didn't show up until the war was almost over. Dany isn't even in Westeros and she would most likely be the only one willing to do it. She technically isn't a king though.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

I do think that dragonriders and the heads of the dragon aren't necessarily synonymous so we might see other riders that will help Dany get her dragons to Westeros and they can later meet up with the other two heads possibly in the North.

http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1261/

I think Rhaegar just couldn't get it right on who the prophecy applied to. He never expected a third child of his father to be the one to bring back the dragons

They don't which is why I said that Dany fulfilled most of it at her birth even though she is now a Queen. If Jon weren't legitimate already if he were to get legitimized it wouldn't be until way too late in the series. It really wouldn't be relevant to the war with the Others if AA didn't show up until the war was almost over. Dany isn't even in Westeros and she would most likely be the only one willing to do it. She technically isn't a king though.

if aegon is false then technically she is a king, well queen of westeros. i dont really understand why it would be too late, the only persons that would need to know are jon and dani, i doubt any paper work has to filled or processed and there is little need for lots of people to know about it so long as dani says that jon is indeed her nephew. that would make him king/prince in name at least.

i think that in order for the others to be defeated dani and the dragons are gonna have to get involved, i cant see men putting up much of a fight once the wall is breached. after all every man that theNW loses in the battle would become an other! difficult to fight against those odds without dragons i think.

kind of a moot point anyway, dani is the pwwp, aa etc.. if she isnt then everything about the prophecy is complete nonsense! if there is one thing this series really needs its a new 'sword of the morning'. cant believe there isnt one, it seems such a cool kind of character to have omitted.

[ARYa_Nym]

Theoretically it could happen if there weren't only two books left. Dany has tons of stuff do besides possibly later interacting with Jon like slaying lies and cleaning up the Mereen mess. She also has to find a way to get to Westeros in the next book and train/control her dragons. I don't see her interacting with Jon until the last book really.

On Jon's end he might be dead. If he is how long will he be out of the picture for? & GRRM may make us wait yet another book to confirm Jon's parentage.

So he has to find out. Dany has to find out and believe it. Stannis was quick to try to get Jon to be a Stark because he wanted the North immediately. Dany may want to trust Jon first in this situation especially since she has the tendency to get betrayed.

The Others may breach the Wall in the next book.

IA. It's a shame that the 5 year gap was abandoned because Edric Dayne would have been old enough then to possibly be the Sword of Morning.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

Theoretically it could happen if there weren't only two books left. Dany has tons of stuff do besides possibly later interacting with Jon like slaying lies and cleaning up the Mereen mess. She also has to find a way to get to Westeros in the next book and train/control her dragons. I don't see her interacting with Jon until the last book really.

On Jon's end he might be dead. If he is how long will he be out of the picture for? & GRRM may make us wait yet another book to confirm Jon's parentage.

So he has to find out. Dany has to find out and believe it. Stannis was quick to try to get Jon to be a Stark because he wanted the North immediately. Dany may want to trust Jon first in this situation especially since she has the tendency to get betrayed.

The Others may breach the Wall in the next book.

IA. It's a shame that the 5 year gap was abandoned because Edric Dayne would have been old enough then to possibly be the Sword of Morning.

i think there is time, i think that the next book will see dani smashing the yunkish with the help of a few thousand more dothraki and drogon and then immediately on to westeros. i expect her to arrive by the beginning of the last book. if jon is meant to be a dragon rider then it will be pretty easy to substantiate his claim by just throwing him in with them quentyn style. im pretty sure that dani would believe her dragons. i also think that she AND jon will learn much more about rhaegar.

is it wierd that rhaegar is my favourite character even though hes not in the books? wish he was in a way but maybe its the mystery that makes him a favourite.

really cant see jon being dead, GRRM has said hed learn the truth about his parentage and so i have to believe he lives, just out of action for a while like tyrion was and he survived.

how old is edric dayne?