Does John Connington know about Rheagar and Lyanna?

[The Great Cornholio!]

If Jon Connington starts giving reveals in his inner-monologues I wouldn't be surprised. He was in kind of the right place at the right time with the right people, but he also had a bunch of responsibilities, was banished before the war even ended, and it isn't clear if his and Rheagar's relationship was one sided or not. I don't think he had time to kick back at the tower of joy with the crowd, but it is possible he knows what was going on.

My guess would be he knows about the initial stuff. He probably doesn't know about Jon being born, but he might know about Rhaegars intention of having a child with Lyanna.

It would be interesting if he told Aegon to go seek out his brother.

[CrypticWeirwood]

That Ned gave Viserys the title Prince implied that Aegon was dead.

To the contrary: it proves that Ned did not consider Viserys to be King, for that would be his title if Aerys and Rhaegar were both dead, and Rhaegar had no legitimate living heirs. By this time, Ned knew that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar’s two children by Elia were all dead. Yet he calls Viserys Prince, not King. Therefore Ned knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and that their child was the lawful King. The Kingsguard knew it, too. Nothing but convoluted casuistry can deny the clear textual evidence.

It is known.

[Stark Winds]

My guess would be he knows about the initial stuff. He probably doesn't know about Jon being born, but he might know about Rhaegars intention of having a child with Lyanna.

Agree completely. Now that he's back in Westeros, he might actually start wondering if R+L led to anything

To the contrary: it proves that Ned did not consider Viserys to be King, for that would be his title if Aerys and Rhaegar were both dead, and Rhaegar had no legitimate living heirs. By this time, Ned knew that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar’s two children by Elia were all dead. Yet he calls Viserys Prince, not King. Therefore Ned knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and that their child was the lawful King. The Kingsguard knew it, too. Nothing but convoluted casuistry can deny the clear textual evidence.

It is known.

I also agree with this. But it is possible that Ned did not consider Viserys to be king because he's not Robert's heir.

[Lady Octarina]

I also have to nitpick on the "best friend" thing. Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend. Connington loved Rhaegar and while I'm sure there was some affection there, I get the strong impression that it was one-sided and that Rhaegar meant far, far more to Connington than Connington meant to Rhaegar. In that case, it makes Connington's story that much sadder: He's working to put a pretender on the throne, thinking he's doing right by the guy he loved, when the kid's a fake and his love and affection were mostly unrequited.

I completely agree with you.

I'm sorry if I repeat points mentioned previously, I didn't read the whole thread, but I think people are giving too much importance to the way Jon Connington conceived his friendship with Rhaegar. The man was most likely in love with him, so it's very unlikely he'd be a reliable source of information on him. Rhaegar might have been aware of it, in which case it's also unlikely he would have shared his feelings with the guy, or the information about a child he would have with Lyanna (besides, I don't think it's stated anywhere that they kept in touch after their running south).

I think that, so far, the closest thing to a reliable source on Rhaegar is Barristan Selmy, who was a kingsguard, and by all he says it's pretty clear Arthur Dayne was the one closest to him (as other people have mentioned, the Daynes are probably more into all of this than anyone else, since Ashara Dayne was possibly aware of the whole story, and I believe the Tower of Joy is close to Dayne lands?), and he was guarding the Tower, so he, along with Hightower and the other guard who died that day, are the only ones who knew for sure all that went up there. If only Daenerys would have been more curious and asked Selmy more about Rhaegar...

So, yes, I think it's more likely Ned named Jon after Jon Arryn, especially because Lyanna was dying when he found her, and far too worried about having the boy protected from Robert [and the Lannisters, though she didn't know that], so it's very possible she wouldn't have the time or the nerves to suggest a name. On the other hand, I loved Ibbison from Ibben's idea that Jon's name might be Jonaerys - I was always troubled by how unTarg is name sounded, and that would solve the problem. :laugh:

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

i have read all the books but only once, so forgive me if i have missed details that would make my following theories complete and utter nonsense. i am also new to this forum so again sorry if this is in the wrong thread but....

earlier i read that someone else had stated that if r+l=j is true then jon would need to be legitimised, but i dont really see why. in order for jon to be part of any prophecy i dont see any reason that jon would need to be a legit targ, i doubt that a 'supernatural' prophecy would care too much about the laws of men. the important thing would be jons blood because it is that that makes him a targ, not the word that follows his first name (words are wind;)).

also, and this may be completely out there or have already been thought of and dismissed, but is there a possibility that rhaegar fathered dani?? age wise they would match and this would also mean that rhaegar has three surviving children, dani, aegon and jon.

complete rubbish im sure but what do u think?

[ARYa_Nym]

If the AA and the PWWP are one in the same then a bastard is not a prince therefore the prophecy shouldn't be fulfilled by him or her.

To the subject at hand I don't think so and I think he probably hates Lyanna.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

If the AA and the PWWP are one in the same then a bastard is not a prince therefore the prophecy shouldn't be fulfilled by him or her.

To the subject at hand I don't think so and I think he probably hates Lyanna.

but who says that a prophecy cares whether or not someone is a bastard? surely the idea is that the prophecy is somewhat ancient, therefore i dont think it would even refer to marriage bonds but rather blood. the prince is generally thought to come from the line of rhaegar/aerys. i am sure that refers mainly to blood line, not royal lineage. besides, a bastard cant be a lord, but with ramsey snow this as already been adapted to fit. i feel that the legitimising of ramsay is ultimately setting the standard so that GRRM can later make jon a targ any way. in my theory of dani, aegon and jon being rhaegars children/three heads of the dragon i see aegon actually being the promised prince.(assuming of course that he is genuine).

[Buried Treasure]

also, and this may be completely out there or have already been thought of and dismissed, but is there a possibility that rhaegar fathered dani?? age wise they would match and this would also mean that rhaegar has three surviving children, dani, aegon and jon.

Hi and welcome.

You probably missed it, but Rhaegar was Dany's brother. So to have fathered her he would have had to do the dirty with his own mother, I think even Targaryens would consider that particular brand of incest taboo.

It also does not really fit with the timeline as Rhaegar died before Dany was conceived. Dany was born 9 months after the Sack, I understand this is one of the most exact timings we have as usually we are told '8 or 9 months' or 'a year more or less'. Rheagar died at the Trident some time before the sack.

I agree that Jon does not have to be legimate for the sake of prophecies. It is only if you think he is going to wind up king of the 7K (I don't) that he has to be legitimate.

Jon C and Rhaegar's friendship was not entirely one-sided. It was the reason Jon got picked as Hand. I am not certain whether best friend Dayne got overlooked because he was in the KG or because he was missing with Rhaegar. I tend to think Dayne was already at the ToJ.

[corbon]

To the contrary: it proves that Ned did not consider Viserys to be King, for that would be his title if Aerys and Rhaegar were both dead, and Rhaegar had no legitimate living heirs. By this time, Ned knew that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar’s two children by Elia were all dead. Yet he calls Viserys Prince, not King. Therefore Ned knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and that their child was the lawful King. The Kingsguard knew it, too. Nothing but convoluted casuistry can deny the clear textual evidence. It is known.

Let me get this straight.

You claim that Ned would have called Viserys 'King' after winning a rebellion to unseat his father and put in place Robert?

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

Let me get this straight.

You claim that Ned would have called Viserys 'King' after winning a rebellion to unseat his father and put in place Robert?

i agree, but then why call him 'prince'?

Hi and welcome.

You probably missed it, but Rhaegar was Dany's brother. So to have fathered her he would have had to do the dirty with his own mother, I think even Targaryens would consider that particular brand of incest taboo.

It also does not really fit with the timeline as Rhaegar died before Dany was conceived. Dany was born 9 months after the Sack, I understand this is one of the most exact timings we have as usually we are told '8 or 9 months' or 'a year more or less'. Rheagar died at the Trident some time before the sack.

I agree that Jon does not have to be legimate for the sake of prophecies. It is only if you think he is going to wind up king of the 7K (I don't) that he has to be legitimate.

Jon C and Rhaegar's friendship was not entirely one-sided. It was the reason Jon got picked as Hand. I am not certain whether best friend Dayne got overlooked because he was in the KG or because he was missing with Rhaegar. I tend to think Dayne was already at the ToJ.

hi, yeah, i know that rhaegar and dani were siblings but didnt know about the timescale you mentioned about dani being concieved after rhaegars death, so yeah, that pretty much ends that theory, although i am not sure the mother/son thing would be that much of a stretch given the tone set by craster, incest is incest after all! and speaking genetically siblings are closer than parent/child.

as for jon, i never envisioned him becoming king anyway. he is (if alive) tied to the wall and even if he isnt neds son he was raised by him and would not easily disregard his oath to the NW. if, as i suspect, the others are defeated but not annihilated then jon will remain on the wall for his entire life possibly to rebuild. i do not see the others as something that can be completely destroyed, only pushed back.

[FanTasy]

To the contrary: it proves that Ned did not consider Viserys to be King, for that would be his title if Aerys and Rhaegar were both dead, and Rhaegar had no legitimate living heirs. By this time, Ned knew that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar’s two children by Elia were all dead. Yet he calls Viserys Prince, not King. Therefore Ned knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and that their child was the lawful King. The Kingsguard knew it, too. Nothing but convoluted casuistry can deny the clear textual evidence.

It is known.

Possibly, and likely so. If Ned knew Baby Aegon was alive, would he also call Viserys 'prince'?

[ARYa_Nym]

but who says that a prophecy cares whether or not someone is a bastard? surely the idea is that the prophecy is somewhat ancient, therefore i dont think it would even refer to marriage bonds but rather blood. the prince is generally thought to come from the line of rhaegar/aerys. i am sure that refers mainly to blood line, not royal lineage. besides, a bastard cant be a lord, but with ramsey snow this as already been adapted to fit. i feel that the legitimising of ramsay is ultimately setting the standard so that GRRM can later make jon a targ any way. in my theory of dani, aegon and jon being rhaegars children/three heads of the dragon i see aegon actually being the promised prince.(assuming of course that he is genuine).

The Ghost of High Heart was the one who narrowed it down and she has not been wrong yet in the story. She said that the prince was promised would be born of Aerys and Rhaella's line. Jon may be born of the right line but if he's not a prince then why would he be the prince who was promised? The Ghost of High Heart should have never said the word prince then.

If he's a bastard and the word prince/dragon is interchangeable to be the dragon that was promised it can easily be argued that he is a wolf and not a dragon. He was raised by "wolves" and his name is of the North-Snow.

[MtnLion]

To the contrary: it proves that Ned did not consider Viserys to be King, for that would be his title if Aerys and Rhaegar were both dead, and Rhaegar had no legitimate living heirs. By this time, Ned knew that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar’s two children by Elia were all dead. Yet he calls Viserys Prince, not King. Therefore Ned knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and that their child was the lawful King. The Kingsguard knew it, too. Nothing but convoluted casuistry can deny the clear textual evidence.

It is known.

Prince:

Prince is a general term for a ruler, monarch or member of a monarch's or former monarch's family, and is a hereditary title in the nobility of some European states. The feminine equivalent is a princess. The English word derives, via the French word prince, from the Latin noun princeps, from primus(first) + capio (to seize), meaning "the chief, most distinguished, ruler, prince".

ETA: In this specific case it refers to the as yet to be crowned king Viserys. Ned had no idea that Lyanna was married, nor did he know that she had had a child, though the King's Guard did.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

The Ghost of High Heart was the one who narrowed it down and she has not been wrong yet in the story. She said that the prince was promised would be born of Aerys and Rhaella's line. Jon may be born of the right line but if he's not a prince then why would he be the prince who was promised? The Ghost of High Heart should have never said the word prince then.

If he's a bastard and the word prince/dragon is interchangeable to be the dragon that was promised it can easily be argued that he is a wolf and not a dragon. He was raised by "wolves" and his name is of the North-Snow.

if you re-read what i said you will see that i didnt claim jon was the promised prince, i just stated that being a bastard didnt mean he couldnt be given that an ancient prophecy would not take into account the social status of the person in question. GRRM has said before that the gender of the 'prince' was kind of loose and could be male or female. So a female wouldnt be a prince either, i think the term prince may actually be kind of irrelevent, it could just be a term for hero. It could just be terminology.

[ARYa_Nym]

if you re-read what i said you will see that i didnt claim jon was the promised prince, i just stated that being a bastard didnt mean he couldnt be given that an ancient prophecy would not take into account the social status of the person in question. GRRM has said before that the gender of the 'prince' was kind of loose and could be male or female. So a female wouldnt be a prince either, i think the term prince may actually be kind of irrelevent, it could just be a term for hero. It could just be terminology.

I did read what you said but in ADWD we got more info on the PWWP prophecy. The Ghost of High Heart is able to predict the future and she hasn't been wrong. She said the prince was promised not just a basic promised one of the royal line.

Dany was born a princess. The word prince is only interchangeable with the word dragon.

"Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that..The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salf and smoke. The dragons prove it."

Dany is a queen now but she fulfilled a good portion of the prophecy at birth and was later able to wake dragons from stone.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

I did read what you said but in ADWD we got more info on the PWWP prophecy. The Ghost of High Heart is able to predict the future and she hasn't been wrong. She said the prince was promised not just a basic promised one of the royal line.

Dany was born a princess. The word prince is only interchangeable with the word dragon.

Dany is a queen now but she fulfilled a good portion of the prophecy at birth and was later able to wake dragons from stone.

i am not suggesting that the identity of the pwwp is jon, the fact is no one knows other than GRRM. i am just saying that you cant rule jon out based on his upbringing with 'wolves' or the fact his name is snow. in all likelihood dani has to be the dragon that was promised as, as you have quoted, she fulfils most if not all of the prophecy, born in the midst of a storm etc etc...

[ARYa_Nym]

i am not suggesting that the identity of the pwwp is jon, the fact is no one knows other than GRRM. i am just saying that you cant rule jon out based on his upbringing with 'wolves' or the fact his name is snow. in all likelihood dani has to be the dragon that was promised as, as you have quoted, she fulfils most if not all of the prophecy, born in the midst of a storm etc etc...

If he is a bastard I rule him out because he's not a prince or a princess. Either way he would not be a dragon.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

If he is a bastard I rule him out because he's not a prince or a princess. Either way he would not be a dragon.

i rule him out because dani must be the clear favourite. as i have said before being a bastard is irrelevent, it doesnt mean he cant be a dragon, he just isnt. i think we agree on the fundamentals of this maybe just not the reasons. the fact is, as with ramsey, a bastard can be legitimised so i dont really think that the prophecy really relates to the social laws of the contempory society given that they can be altered with what would seem the stroke of pen so to speak

[ARYa_Nym]

i rule him out because dani must be the clear favourite. as i have said before being a bastard is irrelevent, it doesnt mean he cant be a dragon, he just isnt. i think we agree on the fundamentals of this maybe just not the reasons. the fact is, as with ramsey, a bastard can be legitimised so i dont really think that the prophecy really relates to the social laws of the contempory society given that they can be altered with what would seem the stroke of pen so to speak

A bastard can be legitimized but first people would have to know who Jon's father was. & a monarch would have to want to legitimize a son of Rhaegar.

That's different than Robb trying to make Jon a Stark. The Starks have no claim to the iron throne. Same with the Boltons.

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

There's only two books left. It's highly likely that if R+L=J is true the majority of the population won't know until the last book. When would he become Azor Ahai or the PWWP? It would take too long for him to be made prince.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

A bastard can be legitimazed but first people would have to know who Jon's father was. & a monarch would have to want to legitimize a son of Rhaegar.

That's different than Robb trying to make Jon a Stark. The Starks have no claim to the iron throne. Same with the Boltons.

There's only two books left. It's highly likely that if R+L=J is true the majority of the population won't know until the last book. When would he become Azor Ahai or the PWWP?

ummm, again. i do not think jon is the PWWP! i just meant that being a bastard in this contempory society does not have any bearing on a prophecy that was made thousands of years previously. he isnt the PWWP because, in my opinion, dani is the dragon that was promised!

Besides, by your argument there would have been Stark princes when the prophecy was made, not that its relevent now.