Does John Connington know about Rheagar and Lyanna?

[Kantor]

Just for clarification: does Rheagar have two wives at that time: Elia and Lyanna, or only Elia was his wife and Lyanna was an official mistress?

Lyanna wasn't really an official anything.

Unless something happened at the Tower of Joy, she is just a lady who was abducted by Rhaegar.

[MtnLion]

Lyanna wasn't really an official anything.

Unless something happened at the Tower of Joy, she is just a lady who was abducted by Rhaegar.

Well, now, there is solid textual evidence that Jon is the legitmate heir to the throne. Thus Lyanna and Rhaegar appear to have been married since it is unlikely that he was legitimized by a by then dead Aerys. ;)

ETA:

Look here for answers.

[Ser Lepus]

Well, now, there is solid textual evidence that Jon is the legitmate heir to the throne. Thus Lyanna and Rhaegar appear to have been married since it is unlikely that he was legitimized by a by then dead Aerys. ;)

What textual evidence? Where can I find that quote "Look here for answers"?

[corbon]

What textual evidence? Where can I find that quote "Look here for answers"?

Ned's conversation with the 3KG at the ToJ, combined with the later confirmation (I think from Barristan) that the primary task of the KG is to ensure that at least one of them is with (guarding) the King at all times.

Since the three KG have stayed at ToJ and none have gone off to Viserys, nor seem to have any interest in doing so, clearly Viserys is not whom they consider to be King. Since Aerys is confirmed dead, Rhaegar is confirmed dead, Aegon is supposedly confirmed dead, and they don't think Viserys is King, there must be someone else at ToJ who comes before Viserys in the line of succession. The only possibilities are R=L were secretly married, making R+L(=J) legitimate and the true heir, or one of the three dead above (perhaps they have the real Aegon, though that seems less likely than a secret marraige).

[Ser Lepus]

Ned's conversation with the 3KG at the ToJ, combined with the later confirmation (I think from Barristan) that the primary task of the KG is to ensure that at least one of them is with (guarding) the King at all times. Since the three KG have stayed at ToJ and none have gone off to Viserys, nor seem to have any interest in doing so, clearly Viserys is not whom they consider to be King. Since Aerys is confirmed dead, Rhaegar is confirmed dead, Aegon is supposedly confirmed dead, and they don't think Viserys is King, there must be someone else at ToJ who comes before Viserys in the line of succession. The only possibilities are R=L were secretly married, making R+L(=J) legitimate and the true heir, or one of the three dead above (perhaps they have the real Aegon, though that seems less likely than a secret marraige).

That proves nothing; Lyanna´s baby could have died at birth, or Lyanna could have suffered a miscarriage (the bed of blood). For all we know, Wylla could really be the mother of Jon,

[FanTasy]

Ned's conversation with the 3KG at the ToJ, combined with the later confirmation (I think from Barristan) that the primary task of the KG is to ensure that at least one of them is with (guarding) the King at all times.

Since the three KG have stayed at ToJ and none have gone off to Viserys, nor seem to have any interest in doing so, clearly Viserys is not whom they consider to be King. Since Aerys is confirmed dead, Rhaegar is confirmed dead, Aegon is supposedly confirmed dead, and they don't think Viserys is King, there must be someone else at ToJ who comes before Viserys in the line of succession. The only possibilities are R=L were secretly married, making R+L(=J) legitimate and the true heir, or one of the three dead above (perhaps they have the real Aegon, though that seems less likely than a secret marraige).

I'm sorry, one can't rule out that the Kingsguard were in the South protecting another heir to the throne / king and that's why they weren't with Viserys. After ADWD we can't exclude this possibility. We don't know if the Kingsguard believed Aegon was dead or not, there is no proof in the text for the one or the other.

Of course this wouldn't fit in the concept that Jon is legitimate, but I sincerely think other possibilities can't be excluded, even if thought of as unlikely.

[MtnLion]

I'm sorry, one can't rule out that the Kingsguard were in the South protecting another heir to the throne / king and that's why they weren't with Viserys.

That other heir to the throne? We know of the Blue Rose, that ties it to Jon.

After ADWD we can't exclude this possibility.

Sorry to say that we can, until there is proof another way.

We don't know if the Kingsguard believed Aegon was dead or not, there is no proof in the text for the one or the other.

That Ned gave Viserys the title Prince implied that Aegon was dead. He is urging the KG to avoid confrontation, which utterly fails because he was not prepared for Lyanna having given birth to a legitimate boy.

Of course this wouldn't fit in the concept that Jon is legitimate, but I sincerely think other possibilities can't be excluded, even if thought of as unlikely.

The weight of what is said about the situation, even though it has been vague, and requires considerable analysis to understand, puts the heir to the throne at the Tower of Joy. It certainly seems that Jon was born of Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. We are given a view of Lyanna with "her gown covered in gore" by Theon's dream. It makes much sense and is the simplest solution to what we know.

[Ser Lepus]

It certainly seems that Jon was born of Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. We are given a view of Lyanna with "her gown covered in gore" by Theon's dream. It makes much sense and is the simplest solution to what we know.

As I said, nothing proves Jon is that child (the "gown covered in gore" points to a dificult birth, so miscarriage isn´t impossible). If it were any other fansasy novel, I would be with you, but GRRM loves red herrings and subverting tropes (and crushing our hopes), so I think right now the chances of R+L = J are about 50%

[corbon]

I'm sorry, one can't rule out that the Kingsguard were in the South protecting another heir to the throne / king and that's why they weren't with Viserys. After ADWD we can't exclude this possibility. We don't know if the Kingsguard believed Aegon was dead or not, there is no proof in the text for the one or the other. Of course this wouldn't fit in the concept that Jon is legitimate, but I sincerely think other possibilities can't be excluded, even if thought of as unlikely.

I didn't rule them out.

It isn't proof. It's just very likely.

The question at hand was requested strong textual evidence for R+L being married. Not proof.

The strong textual evidence is that all indications (but no garauntees) point to R+L=J being at ToJ and the KG ignoring Viserys (which points to another person ahead of Viserys in succession, which gives very limited possibilities, the most likely of which is R+L=J with a secret marraige to provide legitimacy).

[corbon]

That proves nothing; Lyanna´s baby could have died at birth, or Lyanna could have suffered a miscarriage (the bed of blood). For all we know, Wylla could really be the mother of Jon,

You didn't ask for proof, you asked for evidence.

There is no proof of stuff in a series where we have unreliable narrators. We have to tease out the 'most likely' truth from all the evidence presented to us.

Its technically possible that Wylla is the mother of Jon but that theory fails a number of signififcant data points. It makes Ned's behaviour inexplicable.

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

Looking at the similarities between Arya and Lyanna I highly doubt even a renowned swordsman such as Rhaegar could have kidnapped and raped her.

Brans vision of Lyanna whopping Benjens ass at swordplay confirms this for me at least.

And although I came to the theory late, I wholly subscribe to Lyanna being the "Knight of the Laughing Tree".

even if Lyanna could fight well with a sword she was no rhaegar, i mean the dude probably had some abilities, he did clash with robert on the trident. I dont remeber the fight details but i doubt rhaegar didnt give him a run for his money...

even arya as you compared, we no cannot face people in open combat she would die, i say this and she is by far my favorite. i doubt Lyanna could meet rhaegar in combat and not be over taken handily.

Rhaegar could take her and do as he says fit, but probably took on a few bumps and bruises for his efforts. make no mistake lyanna would get punked she would fight back. tho its probably hard to fight back against the prince of the entire country who is a well trained and able fighter.

Plus he could of just asked the KGs to help him kidnap and unarm her. there for he would just go into what ever chamber he stashed her at and do things, bad things.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

even if Lyanna could fight well with a sword she was no rhaegar, i mean the dude probably had some abilities, he did clash with robert on the trident. I dont remeber the fight details but i doubt rhaegar didnt give him a run for his money...

The Knight of the Laughing Tree didn't face Rhaegar. (S)he defeated all opponents and ended up in the final three, but Rhaegar woudn't have been one of them. (S)he pulled out of the contest before then. Rhaegar won the tournament, but if they had faced each other earlier, presumably it would have knocked the loser out. They're both still in it, ergo they probably haven't faced each other. The Reeds also, I think, would have specified it if they had — the crown prince and eventual victor is a bigger story than a few random knights.

I also think Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. 98%.

The Reeds are surprised that Bran doesn't know the story. Might that be because the "knight" involved is actually Bran's own aunt? And equally, might the family hush up the story (if they know at all, and I'd wager that Benjen at least does) because the tourney's events ultimately led to Lyanna's death?

[Brucolac]

If Jon Connington starts giving reveals in his inner-monologues I wouldn't be surprised. He was in kind of the right place at the right time with the right people, but he also had a bunch of responsibilities, was banished before the war even ended, and it isn't clear if his and Rheagar's relationship was one sided or not. I don't think he had time to kick back at the tower of joy with the crowd, but it is possible he knows what was going on.

[corbon]

(S)he defeated all opponents and ended up in the final three, but Rhaegar woudn't have been one of them.

I don't think (s)he ended up in the final three. I think she defeated only three opponent, not all opponents and then disappeared again.

Not that it greatly matters...

More to the point, I believe AryaFaceless was meaning Lyanna could not have defended herself against Rhaegar during an abduction, nothing to do with jousting at Harrenhal.

Not that I agree with the apparent thrust of her post, but for all Lyanna's capabilities, I doubt she could have fought off Rhaegar.

But even more so I doubt that she wanted to or would have tried.

[MtnLion]

I agree with you regarding the desire that Lyanna would have to fight off Rhaegar. I would not undercut her skills, though, since she is depicted as dousing Benjen at sword point in one of Bran's tree-seeings. She did defeat three knights in tilting at Harrenhal (if she is TKOLT, which I am pretty sure is true) and those three had each proven to be strong tilters. GRRM does reveal that tilting relies heavily on horsemanship skills, and that Brandon and Lyanna were described as being half-centaurs for their skills and love for riding.

[Ladywhiskers]

I think Connington knows about it and Possibly tells him not to do it. Maybe thats the reason behind Rhaegar not fighting his father on exileing one of his friends.

Rhaegar seems to have been a little mad at the end of his life, not as mad as his father though.

I guess i am the only person who thinks, Rhaegar kidnaps and rapes lyanna, thus killing her if she died in childbirth. this would make one of the most glorified people in the whole story a Kidnapping rapist and murderer. Therfore Jon could be the product of rape. Or maybe just maybe he could be Neds actual kid.

Ned remembers the room Lyanna was lying in was filled with roses. You fill a room with roses if you love the person in that room. If it had been rape, I don't think he'd still be bothering with all that stuff, so many months later. Filling the birthing room with roses is something you do to tell someone that the love is still there, perhaps stronger than ever.

Also, if Rhaegar was crazy enough to abduct Lyanna to make the right number of babies to fulfill the prophecy, and if he wants to emulate Aegon the conquerer in as many respects as he possibly can, then we can't rule out polygamy. In all likelihood Lyanna's son is in fact legitimate. He is younger than the real Aegon, and as a second son would only stand to inherit if Aegon died.

I think the real question is, if Connington knows, who would he tell? And what would inspire him to tell it? It's not a big leap to guess that Lyanna would have become pregnant during her captivity, but I would imagine that only people in the Tower of Joy at the time, would actually know for sure.

[FanTasy]

Ned remembers the room Lyanna was lying in was filled with roses. You fill a room with roses if you love the person in that room. If it had been rape, I don't think he'd still be bothering with all that stuff, so many months later. Filling the birthing room with roses is something you do to tell someone that the love is still there, perhaps stronger than ever.

If Rhaegar lovingly send roses to Lyanna's room where Ned found her, then there are some timelime-issues to coinsider.

He fought the Kingsguard when Rhaegar was dead. It was after the battle at the Trident and after the Sack of Kings landing.

So if the fight was at the Tower of Joy and Lyanna's room with her bed of blood and the room filled with roses was in the Tower of Joy: who send the roses?

[Ladywhiskers]

If Rhaegar lovingly send roses to Lyanna's room where Ned found her, then there are some timelime-issues to coinsider.

He fought the Kingsguard when Rhaegar was dead. It was after the battle at the Trident and after the Sack of Kings landing.

So if the fight was at the Tower of Joy and Lyanna's room with her bed of blood and the room filled with roses was in the Tower of Joy: who send the roses?

I assume he left orders for the maids or whomever was in charge of taking care of Lyanna's rooms, to keep filling them with roses, or at least to fill them when the baby came. I doubt he actually sent roses from the front.

[Ser Lepus]

Ned remembers the room Lyanna was lying in was filled with roses. You fill a room with roses if you love the person in that room. If it had been rape, I don't think he'd still be bothering with all that stuff, so many months later. Filling the birthing room with roses is something you do to tell someone that the love is still there, perhaps stronger than ever.

Actually, it´s quite common for some sexual criminals to start harassing and stalking their victims, following them everywhere, phoning them again and again, knocking their door, sending letters and gifts, and eventually doing something criminal (like kidnapping or raping them)....They think they can force the object of their obsession to love then with their insistence, and the gifts are a part of this.

I don´t think Rhaegar did something like that; I think he was Lyanna´s lover, but I´m not sure she was O.K. with the kidnapping or with becoming his second wife; in Ned flashbacks she seem sensible enough to realize that would end in war and tragedy, so I think that Rhaegar really abducted her against her will, because she was O.K. with having an affair with him, but not with trying a polygamic marriage and start a war between the throne and the North.

[corbon]

but not with trying a polygamic marriage and start a war between the throne and the North.

There is zero indication that a polygamic marriage would have kicked off a war.

Indeed, its considerably more likely that an affair would be a lot worse.