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Rapsie

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa II

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I'd be a bit creeped out by a much older man I barely knew stroking my face too. I wondered whether Littlefinger was not just trying to caution Sansa with his famous Life is not a song line, but empathizing, too. Petyr Baelish was quite the hopeful little idealist at Sansa's age, and when a little older, he challenged his beloved Catelyn's intended, the son of an extremely powerful family, to combat for her; regardless of Brandon's being a powerhouse and Petyr's not being warrior material (not to mention that Catelyn had no romantic feelings for Petyr whatsoever, something that Petyr has never admitted, even to himself, in 20-odd years).

I think this is true. It's interesting because when you think about it, both of Sansa's "teachers" during this period - the Hound and LF - probably do empathize (as much as they can) with her naivete, and do issue warnings before everything comes crashing down around her. Both men have had their own bitter experiences within this world, and they see a young girl whose thoughts and actions will make her a victim.

PS: I know that nobody said that she really was a mean girl, I was just saying that I never made that association.

I get what you're saying. Sansa acts like a mean girl in this chapter, but that's not who she is really. I think what we see is that she really can be just as wilful as Arya probably was back at Winterfell. She desperately believes that Joff is her Prince Charming, and basically cannot see anything else as an alternative. I think part of her learning will involve seeing things for what they are, likewise with people.

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The dress was given to her by Cersei and I think she dyes it black after the incident and wears it when she pleads for her father's life. That doesn't go so well. The next dress she gets from Cersei is her wedding dress for her forced marriage......and they say Euron's gifts are poison!!

However the symbolism of the blood orange and the juice running down her face in the same chapter where she once again feels this unmistakable terror from Ser Ilyne Payne could foreshadow a rather miserable fate for her. :(

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The dress was given to her by Cersei and I think she dyes it black after the incident and wears it when she pleads for her father's life. That doesn't go so well. The next dress she gets from Cersei is her wedding dress for her forced marriage......and they say Euron's gifts are poison!!

However the symbolism of the blood orange and the juice running down her face in the same chapter where she once again feels this unmistakable terror from Ser Ilyne Payne could foreshadow a rather miserable fate for her. :(

I had envisioned Sansa being brought to Payne for execution, with hopefully a last-minute reprieve, after Sansa has been brought to King's Landing and surrendered to Cersei's 'justice'. But it could be that GRRM plans to end the series with Arya as the last Stark standing, or Arya and Rickon, both of them fierce and independent kids who are prone to striking first and asking questions later, rather than the more passive, gentle Sansa...

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However the symbolism of the blood orange and the juice running down her face in the same chapter where she once again feels this unmistakable terror from Ser Ilyne Payne could foreshadow a rather miserable fate for her. :(

:(

On the bright side, it would probably be a better fate than having to remain married to Tyrion. :leaving:

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:(

On the bright side, it would probably be a better fate than having to remain married to Tyrion. :leaving:

Agreed.

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I love Sansa and I can totally relate to how she employs this kind of willful blindness about Joffrey & Cercei so that she can continue to hold on to her dream of being queen and married to a handsome young king and having his babies and living out the fairytale. I used to do that with my own boyfriends. I had horrible judgement in that respect for way too many years of my life!

Re: her not understanding the seriousness of the Stark bannerment riding out with Beric Dondarrian to kill Gregor... She is so young, and this chapter brings that home in a big way. Kids and even teenagers do not understand the reality of things. I'm sure that for Sansa, the villager's horror story, Jory & the others dying when Jaime attacked them--I'm thinking it just doesn't really compute. Like, it's sad, but doesn't seem quite real.

I was actually really shocked by how viciously she lashed out at Arya. That seemed so out of character. I would have thought it would make Ned realize how terribly upset she was to be saying such things and behaving so awfully, so that he might make a little extra effort to calm her down and do some damage control. I never really realized how unwilling Ned is to really "parent" Arya and Sansa until you all started analyzing Sansa's chapters on the reread.

When she got upset about Ned not sending Loras to fight Gregor, I was actually embarrassed for her for thinking such a childish thing. I thought Petyr was really sweet to her in that scene.

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However the symbolism of the blood orange and the juice running down her face in the same chapter where she once again feels this unmistakable terror from Ser Ilyne Payne could foreshadow a rather miserable fate for her. :(

Omg, I never even thought about that. It certainly does seem to be written like a lot of GRRM's foreshadowing moments, doesn't it?

If Sansa dies... no no no!

Wow, I have to think about this for a bit. I feel sure that it means something now.

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Regarding her ominous feelings about Ilyn Payne: For now, I'm leaning toward believing that this was due to what would happen to her father at the end of the book, not because Sansa herself will be put on the block. Of course, this belief is based on the fact that, going purely by memory, I can't recall any time in later books where she felt this way about Payne (she hated and feared him in later books, but I don't remember there being that ominous sense of dread anymore).

If I'm wrong, then my little idea crumbles like a house of cards, of course.

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The only positive I can see at the moment in regards to Payne is that there must be more of a reason as to why he is in the Riverlands with Jaime than just doing the nightly sword fighting. Especially as UnCat is around!

Also Jaime thinks of Payne as having a dark or ugly soul.

Anyway Ser Ilyne Payne Epilogue anyone?

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Regarding her ominous feelings about Ilyn Payne: For now, I'm leaning toward believing that this was due to what would happen to her father at the end of the book, not because Sansa herself will be put on the block. Of course, this belief is based on the fact that, going purely by memory, I can't recall any time in later books where she felt this way about Payne (she hated and feared him in later books, but I don't remember there being that ominous sense of dread anymore).

If I'm wrong, then my little idea crumbles like a house of cards, of course.

She wished sandor was payne at the BWB in the dining room. She said she couldn't see him but feel him and felt he would kill/harm her. Is that what you mean?

Omg, I never even thought about that. It certainly does seem to be written like a lot of GRRM's foreshadowing moments, doesn't it?

If Sansa dies... no no no!

Wow, I have to think about this for a bit. I feel sure that it means something now.

Um, probably a stretch but it could be biblical... as in 2 Samuel 1:16 (I googled blood on your head :D )

For David had said to him, "Your blood be on your own head. Your own mouth testified against you when you said, 'I killed the LORD's anointed.'"

Meaning you brought this on yourself? It's a stretch :) Maybe not if that whole scene represents Sansa's blood? I don't know!

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I don't have the books handy; was that before or after Cersei told Sansa that Payne was there to kill Sansa if Stannis' forces took King's Landing? If Sansa felt the foreboding after Cersei told her that Payne would kill her in the event of a victory, I can certainly understand her nervousness. Also, Sansa did see Payne decapitate her father; that might cause a foreboding...

I hope that GRRM is not going to tease us with Sansa's Payne-forebodings for the next ten years only to have Payne execute poor Sansa in the last book.

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I don't have the books handy; was that before or after Cersei told Sansa that Payne was there to kill Sansa if Stannis' forces took King's Landing? If Sansa felt the foreboding after Cersei told her that Payne would kill her in the event of a victory, I can certainly understand her nervousness. Also, Sansa did see Payne decapitate her father; that might cause a foreboding...

I hope that GRRM is not going to tease us with Sansa's Payne-forebodings for the next ten years only to have Payne execute poor Sansa in the last book.

Before she told her, Cersei's inspired moment was the closing to Sansa's chapter before the bedroom scene chapter i think - my husband has stolen the book so I cannot quote it!

:agree: that would thoroughly shit me too.

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You all have done a really good job in analyzing this chapter!!! With all the things that are!!!!

I will just put some few things as I could remember.

Solaris, Raksha and Raspie: yes in the tower of Maegor during the BWB she felt Ilyan Payne even if she couldn´t see him.

-------

Sansa/Ned similarities. I was just thinking the other day that Ned was of his brother and sister the only that hadn´t the "wolf blood" (as Sansa with their brothers and sister). He is calmer as she is.

Sansa/Cat: I don´t know why people tell that is Cat fault that Sansa is so naive. I was pretty naive. I took me a lot of years to grow up, no matter what my parents told me. I was in a teenager mood until my twenties. I leaved alone 2 years and I was still naive. I think Sansa naivety was in her being.

Sansa/Jeyne: they act as friends, as normal teenagers. It makes my think on golden days of laughing.

Sansa/Petyr: creepy! Ay Petyr, Petyr!! You want to touch her that even with all your selfcontrol you follow her face. Always that scene put me hen´s skin.

Anyway I must say that I feel that Petyr is the main villain of the books (the mastermind). He is the most dangerous of all.

Sansa as tv most popular girl of High School. No, it is more the role of Cersei.

Sansa/Arya they act as sisters, as normal sisters that can stand each other in that moment, but with time going tru they realize that they love each other. It´s true that Arya is too prompt to physical violence. She will have to learn how to control that part of hers. And Sansa it too naive and pasive and perfect maners. She will have to learn a lot of things either.

I can´t forget what Ned said of being both side of a coin. That´s true, and I´m pretty sure they will need each other in a future.

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Really awesome to find this thread as I am listening to GoT again and just finished this Sansa chapter. I was looking for thoughts on her dream about Lady. That always makes me very sad.

Sansa infuriated me the first time I read this book. I had to keep telling myself she is still very young and really uneducated in the ways of the world. Even with the bad things she has witnessed, she has not had to really deal with the fall out from it yet (aside from the death of Lady). Sansa has been raised to be a "lady" by her septa and her mother, who is for the most part, a good woman (I say Cat is a good woman for the most part, because I dislike her treatment of Jon, but I digress). Cat does not engage in the female arts of trickery that Cercei does and it appears that Sansa did not witness power plays up north, so how could she recognize them in KL? I do not think of her as a "mean girl" type. I think of her as the older sister who is desperately trying to be the mature one, but still very much a child. That is why she lashed out so hatefully at Arya.

Side topic, Arya's burst of violence while somewhat disturbing, I think are natural. I think it is in our nature to be violent with faced with opposition. We have to learn to control those impulses. Arya has not learned to do that yet. She reacts with violence (hitting, screaming, throwing an orange, etc.) because that is her natural defense. Sansa appears to be a bit more tractable and has learned to control her impulses a bit better, but as we all know she still lacks good judement.

Sorry if this is a bit rambling, but these are some random thoughts I had from reading the chapter and then reading all the comments.

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I don't have the books handy; was that before or after Cersei told Sansa that Payne was there to kill Sansa if Stannis' forces took King's Landing? If Sansa felt the foreboding after Cersei told her that Payne would kill her in the event of a victory, I can certainly understand her nervousness. Also, Sansa did see Payne decapitate her father; that might cause a foreboding...

I hope that GRRM is not going to tease us with Sansa's Payne-forebodings for the next ten years only to have Payne execute poor Sansa in the last book.

Orange happened in GoT- Scene with Ilyn Payne and the BBB in ACOK. So way after. Ilyn Payne is not chopping Sansa's head.

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I wish the poor girl had this knowledge, maybe she function better she senses sooooo much.

An Empath is a person who can psychically tune in to the emotional experience of a person, place or animal. In the paranormal and in some works of science fiction and fantasy, highly developed empathy is a psychic ability to sense the emotions of others and often highly aware of the health and state of mind of their loved ones, no matter how physically near or far away the individuals may be. It can be challenging for empaths to function healthily in society if they are unaware that they have this sensitivity and often opt to be alone.

Most empaths are often in the dark about their innate gifts but the more developed ones are sometimes called in by the police to help track a murderous pedophile or other heinous criminal because they are able to take on the tortured emotions of the assailant. Utilizing Clairempathy, a type of telepathy to sense or feel within one's self, the attitude, emotion or ailment of another person or entity.

They are sensitive to the visible as well as the invisible and pick up on body language, tone of voice, body movements, the words people choose when they speak, the words they avoid, the logic they use; and the hidden things that only an empath can sense inside another person. It is not uncommon for an empath to "freak out" for no apparent reason, only to discover later that a friend or family member went through some sort of trauma at that exact moment. So essentially an empath is someone whose feeling sensory is extraordinarily heightened, meaning they receive the majority of their psychic input from what they feel.

Since they're being assaulted constantly by emotions which do not originate internally, they can't figure out why they feel the way that they do, and therefore can't address the core issues. Since empathy isn't something you can really ditch it's sometimes difficult to sort out what the Empath truly feels in a given situation or what they are taking on from someone else. This can prove to be very confusing!

Emotions that create powers that have been known to be God like in nature. Emotions that build on inside only to be shared with those around you. Emotional empaths are so sensitive that they can absorb the negative emotions of others in their body, and actually take it on. So when an empath is around somebody who is anxious, they can actually absorb that energy into their body, when it isn't even their own anxiety.

Empaths are born, and they’re born unskilled and are generally very understanding of others and their positions, and often times will ask questions rather than make snap judgments, or intuitively seem to 'know' there is more to a story than what meets the eye. They are sensitive to TV, videos, movies, news and broadcasts. Violence or emotional dramas depicting shocking scenes of physical or emotional pain inflicted on adults, children or animals can bring an empath easily to tears.

Empaths are people who don’t “read” the future, or predict it they “read” people, and their energy although sometimes it depends on the person being read, too. They're often problem solvers, thinkers, and studier's of many things. As far as empaths are concerned, where a problem is, so too is the answer.

They are the psychic sponges of the world, soaking up all the psychic and emotional static that other people give off. Being an Empath is one of the most common and most challenging of all the psychic gifts.

So as you can see being am empath can be both a blessing...and a curse!

ETA: and LF would be in so much shit!

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;) Thanks for the explanation of empath.

The truth is that Sansa keeps inside her to much things. She didn´t have somebody o something where to left her emotions.

Maybe because of that makes so surprising to see her in this chapter with all the emotions and being just a common spoil teenager.

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;) Thanks for the explanation of empath.

The truth is that Sansa keeps inside her to much things. She didn´t have somebody o something where to left her emotions.

Maybe because of that makes so surprising to see her in this chapter with all the emotions and being just a common spoil teenager.

I had that saved some where in notes so not my words just what I read on the net some time back as I know just enough to see where this would apply to Sansa.

ETA: If she could harness she be able to know friend, foe, when to back off and when to go add that to her being a warg pretty powerful stuff but she's only 11-13 years old so it may be a while.

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