Edmure's child

[Solaris]

You know what? Politics or not, I can't see Edmure abandoning Roslin. No matter how their marriage started, she chose to stand by him when she didn't have to; I don't think Edmure would ever forget that. Besides, for all his previous weaknesses, the man does have a spine. She is his lady wife, and he will stand by her.

I agree with you. Edmure has honor :) Just like Ned did... Strategically speaking Jamie should have had both Edmure and his wife executed so that there was no going back. They are safe as houses atm by order of Jamie who I feel has saved them simply because he promised Cat no more Tully/Stark deaths.

I have said before that I am hoping that if the pretenders decrees are reversed we should see Edmure (because it is his nature) petition the crown for a pardon for his wife and child using the very arguments you and others have made to spare them.

Unfortunately restitution for crimes of a house are paid in bloodprice, the individuals directly involved or those close enought to perpetrators have to die. This isn't helped by the fact they see breeding as a problem. This is why if Jon Snow is a Targ, Ned shut the hell up, he knew that Robert would have had Jon killed and probably the entire Stark family for hiding him. Sansa was spared by Lannister interests because she could be used to force northern bannermen to comply, Northmen would never accept total decimation of house Stark and just allow anyone to move on in as we have seen with Manderly nor would they bend the knee.

Whatever is judged politically expedient within those guidelines at the time is Justice to them. Sux to be a Westerosi. I hope to see Edmure survive to argue his case and save the life of his lady wife and child.

[Evamitchelle]

I kinda like Roslin and I wouldn't want Edmure to set her aside because she's a Frey (as Ygrain above mentioned I really don't think Edmure would do something like that anyway). The Rosby Freys as a whole seem like good people : Roslin's eldest brother Perwyn seemed very useful to Robb while he had the Frey's allegiance (ensuring Cat's safety when she went south to speak with Renly and Stannis for example) and was sent away before the RW because he was too sympathetic to the northerners to be of any use. Daven also says he's a good guy and I'm tempted to take him at his word. Olyvar was also a great squire to Robb, and was also sent away for the RW because he was too sympathetic. So I hope the Rosby Freys at least escape from Stonehart's vengeance.

[Agromono]

Does anyone else think that half of Westeros will end up with Sansa? She has fairly valid claims to at least three...

[Old Man Aegon]

Does anyone else think that half of Westeros will end up with Sansa? She has fairly valid claims to at least three...

Well atleast to two. The Vale depends on her marrying harry the heir. But yea I see your point. A new rebellion will be launched with The STark at the head of it.

[Evamitchelle]

Does anyone else think that half of Westeros will end up with Sansa? She has fairly valid claims to at least three...

Not quite. She's currently considered the Heir to Winterfell, but Bran and Rickon are actually still alive and come before her in the succession, as does Jon who has been legitimized and named heir by Robb and since Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover don't appear to have died it's likely that Robb's will will resurface at one point or another (but Jon has apparently died before that). She can't get Riverrun before Edmure, his unborn child and possibly the Blackfish die. She's not married to Harry the Heir yet, and she has zero claim on Casterly Rock (because she's not a Lannister by blood and there are a shit ton of Lannisters left, even without counting Cersei, Jaime and their kids). So she probably won't end up as the Lady of all those Kingdoms, even if she has strong ties to them.

[Beneath the Gold]

Okay guys let's think ahead....We will have Edmure, Roslin, and the baby at Castlery Rock for probably until the war is over. At that time, do you think that there will be any Frey's left with their current situation? Hells no. The baby will eventually inherit Riverrun AND the crossing, making it a very powerful lord in the future.

Don't forget: A pregnant Roslin still remains at the Twins. A lot could still happen, and we know these Freys...

[Alexia]

Roslin and Edmure are not private individuals and their marriage was not contracted as a private choice between private individuals. It was an alliance made between two major Houses and arranged for political purposes. Most private individuals would, I suspect, immediately request an annulment if their spouse's family massacred theirs on the wedding day, regardless of the spouse's level of culpability in what happened. Edmure has no responsibility to Roslin. The Freys are in breach of contract, arranged the marriage under false pretenses, and brutally murdered his family and retainers on their wedding day, before abducting him, abusing him, and both threatening and planning to murder him and use Roslin's child to steal his estates.

He should not kill or abuse Roslin or the baby, that would be wrong and would be markedly out of character for Edmure. That being said, Edmure should have his marriage annulled and the child declared illegitimate by the Faith. If he is not willing to do this, he should be aware that his bannermen, whose family members were murdered and taken hostage at his wedding that was contracted under false pretense, might not be willing to maintain their oaths of fealty to him when he continues a marriage alliance that was contracted with the intention of murdering not only his relatives but theirs too.

I kinda like Roslin and I wouldn't want Edmure to set her aside because she's a Frey

It isn't about setting her aside because she is a Frey. It is about setting her aside because her family arranged a marriage alliance (this was a political match made for political purposes) with him and when he arrived for the wedding, murdered his sister and his nephew and desecrated their bodies, murdered and took hostage his friends and retainers, and then physically abused him with the intention of murdering him. As was said upthread, under the circumstances Edmure has no more responsibility towards Roslin than Sansa does towards Tyrion, beyond the responsibility that each person has to be respectful and kind towards others. He has no duty to a marriage that was contracted under false pretenses, and it was an arranged marriage for political purposes and not a love match. And frankly, I wouldn't stay in my own individually contracted marriage if my husband's family massacred my own on my wedding day.

[Evamitchelle]

It isn't about setting her aside because she is a Frey. It is about setting her aside because her family arranged a marriage alliance (this was a political match made for political purposes) with him and when he arrived for the wedding, murdered his sister and his nephew and desecrated their bodies, murdered and took hostage his friends and retainers, and then physically abused him with the intention of murdering him. As was said upthread, under the circumstances Edmure has no more responsibility towards Roslin than Sansa does towards Tyrion, beyond the responsibility that each person has to be respectful and kind towards others. He has no duty to a marriage that was contracted under false pretenses, and it was an arranged marriage for political purposes and not a love match. And frankly, I wouldn't stay in my own individually contracted marriage if my husband's family massacred my own on my wedding day.

Saying "because she's a Frey" was only a shorthand way of explaining Roslin's situation. I never said I'd consider Edmure a lesser person for setting her aside, I only expressed a wish that he wouldn't because I like them both (shipping isn't exactly rational). In any case I don't see Edmure doing that in the first place because he has shown in the past a tendency to let his good nature overcome considerations of practicality. He's the man that sheltered his own people inside Riverrun itself despite being reprimanded/mocked for it by both his uncle and sister and sent his Lords away to protect their homes and people despite his king's disapproval. I just don't think he'd set his wife and child aside without overwhelming pressure from his bannermen.

[Ygrain]

Roslin and Edmure are not private individuals and their marriage was not contracted as a private choice between private individuals. It was an alliance made between two major Houses and arranged for political purposes. Most private individuals would, I suspect, immediately request an annulment if their spouse's family massacred theirs on the wedding day, regardless of the spouse's level of culpability in what happened. Edmure has no responsibility to Roslin. The Freys are in breach of contract, arranged the marriage under false pretenses, and brutally murdered his family and retainers on their wedding day, before abducting him, abusing him, and both threatening and planning to murder him and use Roslin's child to steal his estates.

He should not kill or abuse Roslin or the baby, that would be wrong and would be markedly out of character for Edmure. That being said, Edmure should have his marriage annulled and the child declared illegitimate by the Faith. If he is not willing to do this, he should be aware that his bannermen, whose family members were murdered and taken hostage at his wedding that was contracted under false pretense, might not be willing to maintain their oaths of fealty to him when he continues a marriage alliance that was contracted with the intention of murdering not only his relatives but theirs too.

It isn't about setting her aside because she is a Frey. It is about setting her aside because her family arranged a marriage alliance (this was a political match made for political purposes) with him and when he arrived for the wedding, murdered his sister and his nephew and desecrated their bodies, murdered and took hostage his friends and retainers, and then physically abused him with the intention of murdering him. As was said upthread, under the circumstances Edmure has no more responsibility towards Roslin than Sansa does towards Tyrion, beyond the responsibility that each person has to be respectful and kind towards others. He has no duty to a marriage that was contracted under false pretenses, and it was an arranged marriage for political purposes and not a love match. And frankly, I wouldn't stay in my own individually contracted marriage if my husband's family massacred my own on my wedding day.

However, marriage is not a mere political contract: it is a sacred union before gods. Arranged or not, it changes nothing, you still have taken your vows and love has nothing to do with it. Edmure has responsibility towards Roslin because he has sworn it. He can try and seek annulment because of those false pretexts, but it wholly depends on the Westerosi religious customs if he will be able to get it or not. My guess is that once the marriage is consummated, it will be very difficult to get annulled, just like in the medieval Europe.

There is another aspect to consider: Roslin is quite young - fifteen or sixteen - and described as slender, with narrow hips. That doesn't give her the highest chances of surviving the delivery :-(

[Beneath the Gold]

However, marriage is not a mere political contract: it is a sacred union before gods. Arranged or not, it changes nothing, you still have taken your vows and love has nothing to do with it. Edmure has responsibility towards Roslin because he has sworn it. He can try and seek annulment because of those false pretexts, but it wholly depends on the Westerosi religious customs if he will be able to get it or not. My guess is that once the marriage is consummated, it will be very difficult to get annulled, just like in the medieval Europe.

Not to the mention the fact that she's been impregnated.

There is another aspect to consider: Roslin is quite young - fifteen or sixteen - and described as slender, with narrow hips. That doesn't give her the highest chances of surviving the delivery :-(

Don't worry too much with the forebodings. Judging from present day genes (in both ASOIF and RL), I'd imagine quite a lot of skinny gals survived childbirth. Many times over. Though I agree there's a certain ominousness about this particular instance.

[ElizaMartell]

So let me get this straight, the only way the Riverland lords would accept Edmure would be if he got rid of Roslin and her child and ended up married to a Blackwood girl or something?

[1234567]

They may accept Edmure, or you may have a situation where pressure makes him abdicate a bit like Edward VIII and Wallace Simpson (although I realise there were other issues to do with his abdication). Any Frey blood in Riverrun may cause resentment for generations. If the Blackwoods and Brackens show one thing, it's that years of marrying families together do not bring two warring families together.

If the Freys who had been against the Red Wedding (such as her brothers) had renounced their family afterwards, that may have been helpful, but as they haven't, I can't see anyone treating the new Lady Tully with anything but contempt or loathing.

[Hear Us Roar]

There is no legal, there are 1000 ways he could get out of it and raise the child and mother as concubine and bastard

[Cat Stark]

There is no legal, there are 1000 ways he could get out of it and raise the child and mother as concubine and bastard

Could you elaborate plz? I can see him being able to set aside the heir like Daddy Tarly did to Sam, but I don't see him escaping the marriage... The child is heir to Riverrun and could never be considered a bastard :dunno:

[Alexia]

I tend to think that Edmure has already abdicated during that conversation with the Blackfish, based on both Jaime's thoughts of how the Riverlords would have received yielding Riverrun without a fight, based on Edmure's decision to stay in the castle while helping his uncle escape, and based on the fact that Edmure was going into permanent captivity in Casterly Rock. I think they agreed together that the Blackfish would go to the Vale and front a claim to the Riverlands in Robert Arryn's name, to try to ensure that a Tully would continue to hold Riverrun, even though Edmure had already lost it.

With respect to Edmure's "sacred union" with Roslin, it was made a mockery and a blasphemy when his family, friends, and retainers were massacred at the wedding. Edmure is in an identical situation to Sansa. He was heavily pressured into a marriage he didn't want and horribly physically abused, threatened with murder, and saw his family massacred at the hands of his new in-laws. He is now headed off into the life of permanent captivity the Lannisters intended for his niece. I'll just say it again, he has no responsibility towards her aside from what basic human dignity compells from one individual towards another.

If he chooses to forgive her for the massacre of his relatives at their wedding and his treatment by her family and keep her as his wife, that is because Edmure is a very good person with an extreme generosity of heart. He has no responsibility or duty to do so. Moreover, Roslin is to some extent a victim in this but not entirely. She played her part -- she consummated the marriage with him, making it more difficult to dissolve, instead of telling him what was happening after they were tucked into bed together and at least giving him a choice. She is not innocent or blameless here.

[ElizaMartell]

So all that needs to be done now is find Blackfish and lock him in a room with some young maiden to produce the 'right' kind of Tully heir? And what would be his reaction if he goes to the Vale and discovers Sansa is there? :dunno:

[Alexia]

So all that needs to be done now is find Blackfish and lock him in a room with some young maiden to produce the 'right' kind of Tully heir? And what would be his reaction if he goes to the Vale and discovers Sansa is there? :dunno:

I don't think he wants Riverrun, and he comes after Robert Arryn in the line of inheritance anyway. But I think he'll get to the Vale, find Sansa there, and at a guess he might want to marry her to Sweetrobin to unite their claims for Riverrun (and as an "eff you" to the Lannisters). Or he might support the marriage with Harry, knowing of Sweetrobin's... issues. I'm very much looking forward to finding out how he proceeds.

But LF's days as Lord Protector of the Vale and guardian of Sansa Stark and Robert Arryn are pretty clearly numbered.

[ElizaMartell]

Ahh, now that would be interesting! And would be an extra F-U to Eamon and Genna Frey/Lannister whose days may be numbers (well if theories about BWB and wolves are correct anyway). But poor Sansa, another political marriage yet again.

[Hear Us Roar]

Could you elaborate plz? I can see him being able to set aside the heir like Daddy Tarly did to Sam, but I don't see him escaping the marriage... The child is heir to Riverrun and could never be considered a bastard :dunno:

He could take the child out of the succession and declare his marriage invalid, i don't see anyone caring about the specifics what with the red wedding and all. I am sure they could find a reason saying something like the marriage is invalid because there were no rules for hospitality, murder and all that.

He could keep the child and send the wife away because i don't think people will stand for any Frey anytime soon in the riverlands.

He may also do what is necessary not what his heart tells him like Rob did and remember he just met this chick a short time ago, his "honour" may not allow him to live down the fact that she was distracting him in the bedroom while all his men and friends were getting slaughtered outside.

These are all theories though but i dont think people will care about any legal precedent or stand for a Frey to rule Riverrun

[Ygrain]

With respect to Edmure's "sacred union" with Roslin, it was made a mockery and a blasphemy when his family, friends, and retainers were massacred at the wedding. Edmure is in an identical situation to Sansa. He was heavily pressured into a marriage he didn't want and horribly physically abused, threatened with murder, and saw his family massacred at the hands of his new in-laws. He is now headed off into the life of permanent captivity the Lannisters intended for his niece. I'll just say it again, he has no responsibility towards her aside from what basic human dignity compells from one individual towards another.

Er, sorry for the nitpicking but he didn't actually _see_ it ;-)

The thing is that Edmure's vows didn't concern the Freys but the gods, and his honour, which both tend to be rather unforgiving of oathbreaking and do not care much about the circumstances. His situation is very much similar to that of Jaime, who was made to swear an oath at the point of the sword, and STILL feels bound by it. Even though he keeps wondering whether a forced oath can be considered valid, his newly found sense of honour tells him that he should honour his bond.