Why is he a fake?

[FanTasy]

The problem with seeing V&I as Targaryen supporters dedicated to putting the true Targaryen heir on the throne isn't that they favour Aegon over Viserys and Dany it is that Viserys and Dany are utterly abandoned by V&I to beg their way round the free cities. That doesn't make any sense at all because for any Targaryen loyalist they are still members of the royal family and important people in their own right.

I think the bolded part is the telling point in the debate. Varys and Illyrio are seen by some as Targaryen loyalists.

I think they are nothing of the kind.

Varys says he does his things 'for the realm', whatever that means. I have looked for conclusive quotes where he says that he is loyal to the Targaryens as a family so he is loyal to every member of this family. Couldn't find these quotes, but if anyone can name them I would be very grateful.

Varys was hired by Aerys and comes from Essos. I see no evidence why he would be loyal to Targaryens. He swore to Robert.

I think Varys is loyal to Varys.

Illyrio. I think his goal is wherever his gain is. gain in controlling Aegon VI, fake or no fake.

I think Illyrio is loyal to Illyrio.

As for Varys I could not find any conclusive evidence in the text that Illyrio loves the Targaryens as a family and is loyal to them.

[FanTasy]

Dany and Vyserys are not Rhaegar's children.

You're right! I have edited my previous post, I meant that they both have eyes of a different shade than their brother. Thank you for clearing this up!

Aerys' eye color is not mentioned in the wiki. :stillsick:

[Lummel]

I think the bolded part is the telling point in the debate. Varys and Illyrio are seen by some as Targaryen loyalists.

I think they are nothing of the kind...

I can think of any quotes supporting the view that V&I are fans of the Targaryens either.

I see your point about Varys doing things 'for the realm' but that doesn't ring true for me either because his actions supposedly for the realm (causing chaos, Aegon's invasion) are inevitably going to cause suffering, hardship and death for many. Varys is well aware of how innocents suffer as the great lords play their game of thrones. So for me this again is an argument that makes best sense if Varys is a Blackfyre and believes that the Blackfyres are the god given rightful rulers of Westeros and therefore any action taken to put them on the throne is the best imaginable thing for the realm.

Seeing V&I as supporters of the Blackfyres gives them a motivation that I can believe in. But we'll see how things develop.

[Arland]

You're right! I have edited my previous post, I meant that they both have eyes of a different shade than their brother. Thank you for clearing this up!

Aerys' eye color is not mentioned in the wiki.

Actually, thinking about ut if we go by "like father like son" rule, Rhaegar should have the same eye color as Aerys.. unless it get's somehow "watered down" in every step.

[rydis2]

here is a good thought..why would all these people be determined to help a fake Aegon? Jon Connington has no reason to put a fake targ on the throne..its almost an insult seeing how he felt about Rheager and his kin. illyario doesn't really benefit from doing this either..he doesn't even live in westeros and is content to stay in the free cities..so why would he go through all this to support a "fake" king. Not only that..if they did manage to put Aegon on the throne..and he was fake..it will come out eventually..I doubt he and all his kids will forever be dying hair and the like to keep up the farse.

Just my opinion..as it stands..there is no reason he would have all this support if he was a fake..it benefits no one really..and serves no real purpose.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

here is a good thought..why would all these people be determined to help a fake Aegon? Jon Connington has no reason to put a fake targ on the throne..its almost an insult seeing how he felt about Rheager and his kin.

Obvious reply is obvious: Connington doesn't know he's fake, or is in serious denial about it if he suspects.

illyario doesn't really benefit from doing this either..he doesn't even live in westeros and is content to stay in the free cities..so why would he go through all this to support a "fake" king. Not only that..if they did manage to put Aegon on the throne..and he was fake..it will come out eventually..I doubt he and all his kids will forever be dying hair and the like to keep up the farse.

There's a good theory around that this child is Illyrio's son through his Blackfyre wife, and Illyrio is working to put Aegon on the throne for her.

And if enough people believe in the lie, there's no reason it needs to come out. If I recall, "Aegon" has the Targ look. The dye in his hair made it blue, it wasn't done to pass himself off as a Targaryen, but rather to hide that.

Just my opinion..as it stands..there is no reason he would have all this support if he was a fake..it benefits no one really..and serves no real purpose.

It benefits the Blackfyres rather nicely, I'd say.

[FanTasy]

It benefits the Blackfyres rather nicely, I'd say.

I am not very into the Blackfyres, I must confess. I still have to read the Dunk and Egg-tales. Have read the synopsis of the stories and the wiki-articles.

You seem t know more of it, though.

Who do you mean when you say 'the Blackfyres'? Which descendants are alive at the time of ASOIAF and are they operating as a House or organised party? Who is their leader?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I am not very into the Blackfyres, I must confess. I still have to read the Dunk and Egg-tales. Have read the synopsis of the stories and the wiki-articles.

You seem t know more of it, though.

Who do you mean when you say 'the Blackfyres'? Which descendants are alive at the time of ASOIAF and are they operating as a House or organised party? Who is their leader?

You really need to read Dunk & Egg because 1) They're great and 2) It will explain all the Blackfyre stuff to you. They are no longer an organized House and they are supposed to be extinct in the male line. The biggest organized group remaining with Blackfyre origins is the Golden Company, which was started by Aegon Rivers aka Bittersteel, a Blackfyre supporter and Targaryen bastard. When he founded the Golden Company he vowed to one day return and put a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. And now they've broken their first ever contract and returned to the Seven Kingdoms....to put a Targaryen on the Throne? I think not. Aegon is a Blackfyre.

[Lummel]

here is a good thought..why would all these people be determined to help a fake Aegon? Jon Connington has no reason to put a fake targ on the throne..its almost an insult seeing how he felt about Rheager and his kin. illyario doesn't really benefit from doing this either..he doesn't even live in westeros and is content to stay in the free cities..so why would he go through all this to support a "fake" king. Not only that..if they did manage to put Aegon on the throne..and he was fake..it will come out eventually..I doubt he and all his kids will forever be dying hair and the like to keep up the farse.

Just my opinion..as it stands..there is no reason he would have all this support if he was a fake..it benefits no one really..and serves no real purpose.

Here is another good thought...why would all these people be determined to help a real Aegon? Jon Connington is the only one who would want to do that. Illyrio doesn't benefit at all, can't see any reason for him to be involved **coughcough who was he married to? coughcough**. ;)

I am not very into the Blackfyres, I must confess. I still have to read the Dunk and Egg-tales. Have read the synopsis of the stories and the wiki-articles.

You seem t know more of it, though.

Who do you mean when you say 'the Blackfyres'? Which descendants are alive at the time of ASOIAF and are they operating as a House or organised party? Who is their leader?

Ah ha now there is the million dragon question. The last explicitly named head of the Blackfyres was Malys the Monsterous who Baristan the Bold slew during the war of the nine penny kings. The Golden Company keeps the Skulls of Malys dipped in Gold on their standard as described in ADWD along with other Blackfyre leaders.

[Eejit]

When he founded the Golden Company he vowed to one day return and put a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. And now they've broken their first ever contract and returned to the Seven Kingdoms....to put a Targaryen on the Throne? I think not. Aegon is a Blackfyre.

Now, 100 years later, with far fewer of their members having any direct connection to the Blackfyres who founded them. As you said, the Blackfyres are extinct in the male, GC-associated line.

They're returning to Westeros to put a King on a throne, a King who they expect to be grateful, but they're a very mixed bunch of exiles. How they weigh the memories and grudges of the GC's founders versus their own desires for personal restitution is far from clear.

[FanTasy]

You really need to read Dunk & Egg because 1) They're great and 2) It will explain all the Blackfyre stuff to you. They are no longer an organized House and they are supposed to be extinct in the male line. The biggest organized group remaining with Blackfyre origins is the Golden Company, which was started by Aegon Rivers aka Bittersteel, a Blackfyre supporter and Targaryen bastard. When he founded the Golden Company he vowed to one day return and put a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. And now they've broken their first ever contract and returned to the Seven Kingdoms....to put a Targaryen on the Throne? I think not. Aegon is a Blackfyre.

Didn't they break their contract with Myr earlier, to back Dany? Now they are backing Aegon.

Gotto look into the background of Harry Strickland. I take it a sellsword company will first of all be interested in gain. Why wouldn't they sell their loyalty to the highest bidder? Are all those xthousand fighting men Targ loyalists?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Now, 100 years later, with far fewer of their members having any direct connection to the Blackfyres who founded them. As you said, the Blackfyres are extinct in the male, GC-associated line.

They're returning to Westeros to put a King on a throne, a King who they expect to be grateful, but they're a very mixed bunch of exiles. How they weigh the memories and grudges of the GC's founders versus their own desires for personal restitution is far from clear.

No, we don't know how loyal they are to their foundational goal. We do know that they're not a common sellsword company that breaks contracts for gain. We know that they've broken just one contract, and it's been for Aegon. So I don't think they're doing it just to put a grateful King on the Throne. People have long memories in this world- I'm thinking of the Manderly loyalty to the Starks who took them in 700 years ago or the feud between Blackwoods and Brackens. So while I can't prove that the Golden Company still cares about what Bittersteel cared about, I'm pretty damn sure they do.

Didn't they break their contract with Myr earlier, to back Dany? Now they are backing Aegon.

Gotto look into the background of Harry Strickland. I take it a sellsword company will first of all be interested in gain. Why wouldn't they sell their loyalty to the highest bidder? Are all those xthousand fighting men Targ loyalists?

It's true that they broke their contract with Myr to 'back Dany' sort of, but in reality they were breaking their contract to back Aegon. They went to Volantis to meet up with her, just as Aegon was doing. Seems to me the plan was for Dany and her dragons to meet up with Aegon, his army, and his 'better claim' to the Throne. I don't think the GC would have been going to meet up with Dany if Aegon weren't doing the same thing. This is supported by the fact that they end up following Aegon instead of waiting for Dany.

[FanTasy]

Considering Blackfyres. If Aegon is a Blackfyre and Serra's son, who was Serra's mother or father and how can she be connected to the Blackfyres, on other evidence than looks?

[Anwar]

Is it possible that Aerion Targaryen (the eldest of Maekar Targaryen's sons) had children after he was banished to Essos, and this Aegon may be descended from him?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Considering Blackfyres. If Aegon is a Blackfyre and Serra's son, who was Serra's mother or father and how can she be connected to the Blackfyres, on other evidence than looks?

This I cannot answer.

Is it possible that Aerion Targaryen (the eldest of Maekar Targaryen's sons) had children after he was banished to Essos, and this Aegon may be descended from him?

Interesting, I had not considered this.

[Rangers]

Here's a question regarding the Blackfyres. Unless I'm mistaken, didn't they go extinct 100 years ago or so? Even if the female line did live on, don't you think someone would have realized there were Blackfyres walking around by now? I mean, look at how much trouble people have gone through to keep YG, a single person mind you, a secret for merely 19 years. Now imagine how much trouble people would have to go through to keep AN ENTIRE BLOODLINE under wraps for 100 YEARS. Personally, I feel the Blackfyre theory is a fun idea, but at the end of the day it's a lot simpler and more plausible to deem YG a Targaryen and not a Blackfyre.

[Anwar]

He may not be a Blackfyre, but descended from Aerion Targaryen.

[FanTasy]

Hmm ... it should be in the female line. Shiera Seastar? Is it known if and how she died? The wiki is not conclusive.

She was a sorceress and wore a necklace with jewels. So for a time I thought she could be under Melisandres glamour. But then she would have recognised Bloodraven in that vision, methinks.

Did Shiera Seastar have children and could Serra be her daughter?

^{edited for fuzzy English}

[Anwar]

Aerion had one legitimate son who was apparently abandoned after Aerion died (history never says what happened to him) so even if he didn't have kids in Essos he still had a legitimate heir who's claim to the Throne was more valid than Aegon the Unlikely's.

[FanTasy]

Hmm ... actually if the wiki is correct there are similarities to Shiera Seastar and Melisandre: heart-shaped face, slender, nice full breasts, weird eyes, practising the dark arts.