Why is he a fake?

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

At this point in the story, all naysayers are reacting emotionally/wildy speculative. They come up with "too late in the story" or "his appearance is a red herring" type arguments. Interestingly, genetic traits are what made jon arryn and ned realize that joff was an abomination of incest in GoT. I don't see anyone doubting the significancebof gendry's physical traits as they do with Aegon. Or what about arellas' widow peak as a reference to Oberyn? It seems that people pick and choose when it comes to physical appearence.

There is nothing in the text to indicate he is fake.

Per GRRM "Elizabeth Taylor had violet eyes and she wasn't a Targaryan".

[Jem]

I'm from the "Serra is a Blackfyre and Aegon is Illyrio's son" school of thought but not because Varys or Illyrio have any Blackfyre sympathies. When Tyrion is staying in Pentos Illyrio describes how him and Varys had a scam; Varys would steal stuff and Illyrio would "find it" for rewards. If anything, this installing of Aegon is another scam. They "find" the true heir and are rewarded for it. Also, read the chapter where Illyrio sends off Tyrion to Duck. He gets teary eyed and says that he's saved candied-ginger for the boy since he likes it so much. I believe that Illyrio truly loves his son and wants whats best for him. Since Illyrio cam from nothing to become a magistar why shouldn't his son rise even higher to the rank of King? Varys can't have a son, so I can see him taking on Aegon as a surrogate son and making this plan up to help his life-long friend and the boy.

I agree. I think the details of that scam are a forshadowing for what happened with Aegon: Varys steals Aegon, and Illyrio returns him (with much profit expected for his 'good dead'). Even though in this case Varys didn't literally 'steal' Aegon, the official story is that he did.

[Jem]

Double post..

[corbon]

The problem with seeing V&I as Targaryen supporters dedicated to putting the true Targaryen heir on the throne isn't that they favour Aegon over Viserys and Dany it is that Viserys and Dany are utterly abandoned by V&I to beg their way round the free cities. That doesn't make any sense at all because for any Targaryen loyalist they are still members of the royal family and important people in their own right.

But they aren't utterly abandoned. That is just little-girl-Dany's impression from her whiny, entitled older brother.

They were cared for and taken in, by a variety of people. They never actually had to literally beg, or live on the streets or anything.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But they aren't utterly abandoned. That is just little-girl-Dany's impression from her whiny, entitled older brother.

They were cared for and taken in, by a variety of people. They never actually had to literally beg, or live on the streets or anything.

It's said that they were forced out of virtually any place they ever lived (and I don't see the link between these places and Varys and Illyrio) and had to sell everything, including their mother's crown, to survive. Sounds like pretty abject poverty to me. Viserys was also called ... "The Beggar King."

If they weren't abandoned, whoever was looking out for them did a piss-poor job.

[Solaris]

Sorry to intergect on the most excellent of bloodline speculations....

Did we find out if there were any credible witnesses with Elia and the kids at the time? (Still nowhere near my books :( )

[Ramsay Gimp]

Sorry to intergect on the most excellent of bloodline speculations....

Did we find out if there were any credible witnesses with Elia and the kids at the time? (Still nowhere near my books :( )

If any are still alive, they would have to be Gregor Clegane's men. The Mountain wouldn't just leave witnesses after raping/killing a princess and smashing her baby

[corbon]

It's said that they were forced out of virtually any place they ever lived (and I don't see the link between these places and Varys and Illyrio) and had to sell everything, including their mother's crown, to survive. Sounds like pretty abject poverty to me. Viserys was also called ... "The Beggar King."

If they weren't abandoned, whoever was looking out for them did a piss-poor job.

Again, that is entirely from the perpective of Viserys and we all know what he is like.

The fact is, they didn't go homeless and they didn't literally beg and when we saw them they were actually living in the lap of luxury. Very far from abject poverty, even though they owned nothing and were dependent on Illyrio.

The 'Beggar King' is about perception, not reality, and helps keep Westeros unworried about Targaryen resurgency prospects.

What I see is two Targaryen heirs being supported ('kept') by wealthy foreigners who don't owe them anything.

Could be Illyrio and Varys arranged each of those places they lived at, and arranged for them to gradually lose their possessions (not that they aren't still living in the lap of luxury mind you - and maybe even still have the crown for Aegons wife!) and become more dependent. Maybe the crown and other possessions were actually sold to pay those welathy foreigners who don't owe the Targs anything to take them in and keep them in the lap of luxury.

Whatever whiny Viserys might have thought, and expected from others, I don't see any evidence that they haven't actually been well cared for. For all their lack of possessions they are still want for little materially. Viserys is even able to buy a bed slave for Drogo (or is that only in the show, probably).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Again, that is entirely from the perpective of Viserys and we all know what he is like.

The fact is, they didn't go homeless and they didn't literally beg and when we saw them they were actually living in the lap of luxury. Very far from abject poverty, even though they owned nothing and were dependent on Illyrio.

The 'Beggar King' is about perception, not reality, and helps keep Westeros unworried about Targaryen resurgency prospects.

What I see is two Targaryen heirs being supported ('kept') by wealthy foreigners who don't owe them anything.

Could be Illyrio and Varys arranged each of those places they lived at, and arranged for them to gradually lose their possessions (not that they aren't still living in the lap of luxury mind you - and maybe even still have the crown for Aegons wife!) and become more dependent. Maybe the crown and other possessions were actually sold to pay those welathy foreigners who don't owe the Targs anything to take them in and keep them in the lap of luxury.

Whatever whiny Viserys might have thought, and expected from others, I don't see any evidence that they haven't actually been well cared for. For all their lack of possessions they are still want for little materially. Viserys is even able to buy a bed slave for Drogo (or is that only in the show, probably).

I'm sorry, but even if you're well kept, if your station depends entirely on the kindness and generosity (or the expectation of getting repaid) of others, I still consider that poverty. It might not be poverty in the starving sense, but they had nothing that actually "theirs," no way to earn a living and were regularly chased out of the houses in which they stayed. I'm sure you disagree, but that's my stance. It doesn't do you any good or say anything about your means when your clothes, food, furniture and other goods are owned by someone else.

And I think Illyrio's the one who paid for Doreah, not Viserys. He just let Viserys sleep with her. Viserys only bought her on the show.

[bent branch]

But they aren't utterly abandoned. That is just little-girl-Dany's impression from her whiny, entitled older brother.

They were cared for and taken in, by a variety of people. They never actually had to literally beg, or live on the streets or anything.

It's said that they were forced out of virtually any place they ever lived (and I don't see the link between these places and Varys and Illyrio) and had to sell everything, including their mother's crown, to survive. Sounds like pretty abject poverty to me. Viserys was also called ... "The Beggar King."

If they weren't abandoned, whoever was looking out for them did a piss-poor job.

I actually agree partially with both of your statements. They were sometimes taken in, but never for long. I think the person looking out for them was Varys. Robert always kept tabs on them through Varys and this meant Varys always knew where they were. If they had been totally abandoned they probably would have died on the streets. On the other hand, if they were taken in somewhere for too long, Robert would have become suspicious that they were gaining sympathizers and probably ordered them killed. Robert took joy in their misery and only became concerned when Dany became pregnant. By arranging things in this fashion, Varys kept them alive long enough to marry Dany to Drogo. I think Dany was not given the eggs because she married Drogo. Instead, I think she was married to Drogo so that she could be given the very expensive dragon eggs without raising Robert's suspicion. I think Varys is working off the same prophecies that Rhaegar was. However, I don't know if he is working towards the prophecies or against them. If he is working to help fulfill the prophecies, than Aegon is probably real. If he is working against the prophecies than it doesn't matter if Aegon is real or not. (In this scenario, Varys and Illyrio are working together and the actions of Illyrio reflect the wishes of Varys).

[Grip]

I dont know if this has already been posted, but nonetheless I see it as a strong "hint" that Aegon is a Blackfyre rather than a Targ.

Quoting Jurble the Ebonhearted:

the tl;dr is that in AFfC we're told a story about a 3-headed black dragon that's hung for an inn. It gets cut down when the Blackfyres rebel and tossed into the river, and washes ashore on the Quiet Isle rusted red. Ergo, it's a reference to the Blackfyres being tossed across the sea, and then Aegon washes ashore pretending to be a Targaryen (rusted red dragon).

http://asoiaf.wester...-evidence-ever/

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I dont know if this has already been posted, but nonetheless I see it as a strong "hint" that Aegon is a Blackfyre rather than a Targ.

Quoting Jurble the Ebonhearted:

http://asoiaf.wester...-evidence-ever/

Oh good, I'm glad someone posted this over here.

If it's intentional it's absolutely genius, both on Martin's part and on the part of the reader who caught it.

[Buried Treasure]

I am unconvinced about Aegon is a Blackfyre, because a Blackfyre heir should have links to the Golden Company - that is one of the primary reasons for the company's existence. The links YG has with the GC is as the real Aegon.

Serra as a Blackyre is particularly problematic, as Illyrio got thrown out of Pentoshi high society when he married her because she was a slave. Why should the last heir of the Blackyres be a slave?

We don't know that there are any Blackfyres at all in the current timeframe. Just because we were told the male line died out 40 years ago doesn't guarantee the female line carried on for more than a few years.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I am unconvinced about Aegon is a Blackfyre, because a Blackfyre heir should have links to the Golden Company - that is one of the primary reasons for the company's existence. The links YG has with the GC is as the real Aegon.

Why would the company founded by Bittersteel want to aid a legitimate Targaryen?

Serra as a Blackyre is particularly problematic, as Illyrio got thrown out of Pentoshi high society when he married her because she was a slave. Why should the last heir of the Blackyres be a slave?

The family could have fallen on hard times after the Ninepenny Kings war.

We don't know that there are any Blackfyres at all in the current timeframe. Just because we were told the male line died out 40 years ago doesn't guarantee the female line carried on for more than a few years.

Surely if the family is extinct, he'd have just said, "The Blackfyres are extinct." Saying it's "male-line extinct" leaves open the possibility that it's still alive in the female line. Kind of like when Martin would only say that Rhaenys was killed and didn't make a call on Aegon.

[Dragon greyscale]

Per GRRM "Elizabeth Taylor had violet eyes and she wasn't a Targaryan".

Yes, using physical appearance as genetic proof is a very superficial tool in storytelling. But it still is what kicked off the entire story... It felt weird at the time, but .now i more or less accepted it as part of the asoiaf universe(begrudgingly).

So it's a weird turn that it does not seem to matter anymore for aegon and jon. If ned would have caught cersei and jaimie in the act, or if he had found a love letter, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes, using physical appearance as genetic proof is a very superficial tool in storytelling. But it still is what kicked off the entire story... It felt weird at the time, but .now i more or less accepted it as part of the asoiaf universe(begrudgingly).

So it's a weird turn that it does not seem to matter anymore for aegon and jon. If ned would have caught cersei and jaimie in the act, or if he had found a love letter, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.

I get what you're saying, but it wasn't just that Cersei's kids looked nothing like Robert. It was that every other child of Robert's looked like him. And both previous times a Baratheon had wed a Lannister, the Baratheon features "won" in the offspring. Ned wasn't working in a vacuum; he had a control group with which to work.

What baffles me is why Cersei would own up to it so easily. She could have acted scandalized and told Ned how perverted he was for thinking she was sleeping with her brother, accused him of ruining her reputation on purpose or any other weepy-faced action.

[Eejit]

Why would the company founded by Bittersteel want to aid a legitimate Targaryen?

Words are wind, Bittersteel is long dead and members of the company have their own personal claims in Westeros they want to persue with a grateful king in the debt.

[Lummel]

I am unconvinced about Aegon is a Blackfyre, because a Blackfyre heir should have links to the Golden Company - that is one of the primary reasons for the company's existence. The links YG has with the GC is as the real Aegon.

Why would the company founded by Bittersteel want to aid a legitimate Targaryen?

Tyrion 2 ADWD

"The Golden Company marches towards Volantis as we speak, there to await the coming of our queen from the east."

Beneath the gold, the bitter steel."I had heard the Golden Company was under contract with one of the free cities."

"Myr". Illyrio smirked. "Contracts can be broken."

"There is more coin in cheese than I knew," said Tyrion. "How did you accomplish that?"

The magister waggled his fat fingers. "Some contracts are writ in ink and some in blood. I say no more."

Interesting that when Connington reveals Aegon to the commanders of the Golden Company they already know who he is, but we don't know what they were told. Tyrion thinks about the origins of the Blackfyres and raises the objection that Apple Martini mentions. Illyrio brushes it away, red or black a dragon is a dragon. Yet the Golden Company is made up of people whose claims to lands and titles in Westeros conflict with those who supported the Targaryens - it is fisher than a sea life centre.

For me the meaning of a contract written in blood is that Illyrio bought the support of the Golden Company by offering them a Blackfyre heir who he could garentee would be able to win the iron throne. That is the basis of the golden company - it's those and the descendants of those disspossessed by the Targaryens for their support of a Blackfyre claim - that is the contract that they wrote in blood. Would they really have a loyalty greater than can be bought with coin for supporting a targaryen than for supporting Stannis or Renly?

[Scaeva]

I think Aegon is a fake.

Besides Daenerys' vision of of a paper dragon and warning to beware the 'Mummer's Dragon,' Illyrio was heartbroken when he was unable to see Young Griff. Illyrio's reaction to not being able to see Young Griff seemed odd to me, and suggested more than just a fondness for him. His support for Young Griff's claim to the Iron Throne also seemed odd to me. What does Illyrio have to gain from it? My personal theory is that Young Griff is Illyrio's son by his Lyseni bedwarmer (and later, wife) Serra. She's described as having gold hair streaked with silver, suggesting partial Valyrian ancestry.

I don't think however that Young Griff is aware that he's a fake, and neither is Connington. Young Griff was raised to believe he's Aegon, and Varys has played Connington like a fiddle.

I also think Young Griff being a usurper and false heir creates more drama than him being legitimate. Consider the drama with Connington alone: Here is a man who was utterly devoted (and in love with) Rhaegar, and considers his greatest failure in life to be that he was unable to protect Rhaegar's family. He is dying, and by trying to put Aegon on the throne he is fighting for personal redemption. He'll most likely die fighting for a usurper who either has no blood relation to Rhaegar, or a less legitimate claim than Rhaegar's sister. (Daenerys) He'll be unwitting betraying Rhaegar's memory by propping up someone who has a less legitimate claim.

At any rate, there are really only two possibilities here: That Martin included a scene of Illyrio moping like parent who is unable to see his child, and included a descrption of Serra that makes her sound Valyrian, as red herrings. Or they are subtle hints that Young Griff isn't Aegon.

[Miryana]

What baffles me is why Cersei would own up to it so easily. She could have acted scandalized and told Ned how perverted he was for thinking she was sleeping with her brother, accused him of ruining her reputation on purpose or any other weepy-faced action.

I think it was because of her overall confidence. She believed she was smart and invincible so why not let her real feelings out at last, acknowledge a deed she wasn't ashamed of and then destroy Ned anyway because she's so awesome the admission is not going to hurt her.

Interesting that when Connington reveals Aegon to the commanders of the Golden Company they already know who he is, but we don't know what they were told. Tyrion thinks about the origins of the Blackfyres and raises the objection that Apple Martini mentions. Illyrio brushes it away, red or black a dragon is a dragon. Yet the Golden Company is made up of people whose claims to lands and titles in Westeros conflict with those who supported the Targaryens - it is fisher than a sea life centre.

I think Aegon is a fake, but he and Connington appear to believe he's not. If Illyrio wants to win over Blackfyre supporters and tells them Aegon is actually a female-line descendant rather than Rhaegar's son, isn't that risky? What if they talk, accidentally or intentionally, and injure Aegon's cause with the Westerosi nobles or inspire the new King Aegon to turn against Illyrio because he was lied to? I've only read the first Dunk story, so I admit this is all a bit confusing to me.